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Old 12-11-2008, 07:50 PM   #1
Ashad

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I'm afraid I don't quite understand this expansion. This past evening and today I joined a group and went through Ravenscale Repository and last night Mistmoore Manor. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if you aren't in raid acquired gear, you won't ever be able to do these groups. I've got my mythical, got some set pieces from VP, looking to pick up some pieces from TSO very soon ... and I'm barely skating by on some of the "easier" instances.

Is it really the intention to make it so if you aren't in a raid guild, you aren't going to be able to handle over half of the instances? Is that really a way to bring new players into the game? My girlfriend signed up and started playing with me, got to 80 and got her fabled epic, and she simply can't cut it in the dungeons that I want to do - and the dungeons that she can handle: there aren't any gear upgrades for her to make her competitive.

Even me in my raid gear, I love to group and there isn't much solo content in the expansion - but I hate having to wait 4+ mid-day hours for a group of 6 raid geared people to think of standing a chance in an instance when there are so many people LFG that simply don't have that type of gear available to them. Chasing these people away is just going to shrink the player base and make it even harder to find groups (which already is becoming a chore).

Perhaps its just my server, and the reality is 90% of the game has their mythicals and raid gear ... but from where I'm standing most of the group content was designed for people who don't get their upgrades in groups and the few upgrades that they could get are unobtainable.

I would love to hear from a developer on this, or even hear from some players who don't have any raid gear that are able to do these instances. Kunark brought back a lot of friends, and it seems this expansion is starting to chase them away and it isn't even a month old.

*edit* I completed Manor and most of Ravescale, I'm more worried about the people who don't have my gear who won't be able to do this - and thus leave, leaving me with less people to group with.

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Old 12-11-2008, 07:55 PM   #2
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this expansion. This past evening and today I joined a group and went through Ravenscale Repository and last night Mistmoore Manor. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if you anen't in raid acquired gear, you won't ever be able to do these groups. I've got my mythical, got some set pieces from VP, looking to pick up some pieces from TSO very soon ... and I'm barely skating by on some of the "easier" instances.

Ravenscale is one of the harder instances.  Attempting it without 180 AA and atleast your 2nd voidset gear is going to be a high chance at failure.

Even in a mythical'd guild group, this instance can be very tough.  It isn't meant for legendary geared players with 150 AA.

I agree, it would be best if the daily double did not include the harder zones for a while, but it doesn't seem like the designers agreed.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:09 PM   #3
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I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:14 PM   #4
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[email protected] wrote:

I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

As a swashy you can get by with subpar gear, nobody checks your gear.  The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:15 PM   #5
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I have a full set of VP gear on my raiding main.  When I run most of the instances with my raiding friends we can just blow through the mobs so fast, most of the time their scripts don't even phase us.  Playing my legendary ROK geared guardian and warden, I have more fun playing through these zones in PUG's than I do with my raiding main.  Why?  We get to encounter the zones the way they were intended and it really is fun trying to figure out how to kill certain named with the makeup of the group.  Difficulty is just fine.  Can I do the tougher instances on my alts?  Nope, not yet.  But I suspect that when they are geared from the entry level zones and have 2nd tier void armor and more AP's they'll be able to do it.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:26 PM   #6
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erin wrote:

The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

I don't think a single tank I've grouped with for TSO zones has been "raid" geared.

So far, I haven't seen a single one of the "easy" TSO instances that was any more difficult than RE2. You certainly don't need a raid-geared tank for RE2.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:35 PM   #7
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It isn't about all of the instances. I'm pretty sure without raid gear a group won't be able to accomplish ...

Lower Corridors, Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, Ravenscale Repository, Kor'Sha, Necrotic Asylum, Palace of Ferzhul as well as most likely many nameds in Halls of the Forsaken, Anchor of Bazzul, and the Crucible (I can see how an "ideal group" might have better luck in the latter 4).

That is 9 of the 20 instances, almost half. Pretty staggering. The worst part is that the quest rewards I got for finishing Ravenscale are sooo unbelievably bad that it'd be impossible to do the zone if those were upgrades. Reading the quest rewards for Lower Corridors and Necrotic Asylum and Palace of Ferzhul quests I'm sure its the very same thing. In Ravenscale I got a weapon with a 78 rating - no WAY anyone could dps using a weapon worse than that axe and survive the zone.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:45 PM   #8
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I think it has more to do with PUG'ing and people not knowing (or even not willing) to maximize thier toons rather than raid gear for the easier instances.

For the hard instances it makes some sense that you need high end gear to complete them - there needs to be some Nizara-level-difficulty zones.

Generally you need a solid tank, 2 healers, a mez'r, and 2 solid DPS.  If you're PUG'ing and going into the harder instances without that you're just wasting everyone's time. (If you're not PUG'ing then you can determine whether the group can finish the instance or not without the second healer or without the mez'r).

This was the case before TSO for zones like Maiden's, Vek, & RE2 (and going back, Nizara).

So while I agree that PUG'ing doesn't cut it in the current end-game environment, I don't think its the raid-gear.

Raiders are just more likely to have learned the game in enough detail to undestand thier role in the group (and obatined gear, spec'd AA, etc... accordingly).  You can do the same without raiding you just have to be wiling to read about your class and understand the stats & gear bonus you need to aim for and know the class' skills & AA and when to use them, and take the time to obtain the best gear you can from quest, dungeons, & easier instances.

The fact that you have to do hunreds of solo quest to level from ~70 to 80 doesn't really help people prepare for hard instances once they get to 80.

I know our server, Mistmoore, has been in desparate need of a server merger for over two years now; I imagine this is the case on most other servers.  There is just not enough "ready to rock" players to form groups at will (I don't care about total populations).

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:52 PM   #9
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erin wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

As a swashy you can get by with subpar gear, nobody checks your gear.  The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

I don't check the gear but I am checking the parse and I tanked Scion of Ice in T7 MC gear (yes T7) with my Paladin alt.Some of the named took a few tries but we did it.

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:58 PM   #10
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[email protected] wrote:

 I'm pretty sure without raid gear a group won't be able to accomplish ...

Try it with 3-5 pieces of the second tier Void Shard gear...or with Legendary upgrades from the easier Shadow Odyssey instances. 

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Old 12-11-2008, 08:58 PM   #11
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sgbarber wrote:

I think it has more to do with PUG'ing and people not knowing (or even not willing) to maximize thier toons rather than raid gear for the easier instances.

Agreed.

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Old 12-11-2008, 09:06 PM   #12
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Some players can't be helped by gear.  See this becomes more prevalent when dealing with content that takes more coherence than CoA, but not everyone hits the right buttons.  Why have I seen a fury solo heal moderate zones and see a mystic drop a huge fail bomb on solo healing an easier zone?  Theres a raid geared out newb for every undergeared pro.  Really, it comes down to personal skill waaay more than gear most of the time.  When you factor in an entire group, a competent group who can work together can overcome gear disadvantages while people loaded with gear that lack competency will probably have a harder time overcoming that.

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Old 12-11-2008, 09:06 PM   #13
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erin wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

As a swashy you can get by with subpar gear, nobody checks your gear.  The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

No, seen Scion tanked in full MC with some legendary jewelry. Currently at least easier 10 instances do not require anything more than T1 shard gear OR MC + good group setup to tank them. We cleared Kor-sha with tank wearing 6 pieces of T1 shard armor. I'd save the nerfing untill competent groups in T2 shards gear + 200 AAs cannot clear them.

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Old 12-11-2008, 09:59 PM   #14
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Haapy wrote:

erin wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

As a swashy you can get by with subpar gear, nobody checks your gear.  The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

No, seen Scion tanked in full MC with some legendary jewelry. Currently at least easier 10 instances do not require anything more than T1 shard gear OR MC + good group setup to tank them. We cleared Kor-sha with tank wearing 6 pieces of T1 shard armor. I'd save the nerfing untill competent groups in T2 shards gear + 200 AAs cannot clear them.

Great.  We weren't talking about Scion, if you read the OP, it was about places like ravenscale.  The hardest (i.e. heroic) instances.

Or else I completely misunderstood the whole OP.

Scion, sure, you can do that with MC gear, with legendary, with ROK quested.

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Old 12-11-2008, 10:53 PM   #15
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erin wrote:

Great.  We weren't talking about Scion, if you read the OP, it was about places like ravenscale.  The hardest (i.e. heroic) instances..

It was also about places like Mystmyr Manor, which I've done with a tank that was not geared as well as the OP's tank.

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Old 12-11-2008, 10:55 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

erin wrote:

Great.  We weren't talking about Scion, if you read the OP, it was about places like ravenscale.  The hardest (i.e. heroic) instances..

It was also about places like Mystmyr Manor, which I've done with a tank that was not geared as well as the OP's tank.

Considering I just did Ravenscale a bit ago, I would say I would rather do Mystmyr Manor it's a HECK of alot easier. Also I did do the manor yesterday so yea I can relate between the two zones fairly well.

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Old 12-11-2008, 11:51 PM   #17
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Just finished Kor Sha with a MC/Legendary geared Berserker tanking.

The zones are completely doable with competent players.

Just become competent.

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:08 AM   #18
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I've run through several of these zones with PUGs or partial PUGS and we didn't have any HUGE issues. A few days ago I ran through Palace of Ferzhul with myself (a brigand), a dirge, two healers, an illy and a WIZARD tanking and we were awesome. Seriously. Yes, a wizard can tank...no it's not common but my friend knows his stuff. Yes, we did have a few wipes just because some of us had never been there before.

Other zones I have been to (the 'harder' ones) with a proper tank we also did just fine. These tanks were NOT in full VP gear with their mythicals either. Some had a few VP pieces and others had raid fabled/legendary stuff (no VP armor) or a few pieces of shard armor. None had their mythicals. There were wipes simply because of a bad pull here or there or because not everyone in the group had been to that instance before. Overall, we were okay.

These were done ALL PUG or with partial PUG (myself and one other guildie...the rest were PUG people).

You can't blame everything on gear. Some people just don't know how to play their class well enough for these harder instances (or any instance for that matter). This isn't an insult to the OP, but if there are people in your group that aren't used to being in more difficult instances or not used to grouping, you need a heck of a lot more than good gear to make it through there.

Another thing to factor in is you can't really expect to go into any instance the first couple of times and have zero wipes. If a person in the group isn't used to that instance or has never been there before, that can also make a difference.

The first time I went into a couple of instances, the group wiped because I was standing in the wrong spot and got several roamers. I didn't realize until it was too late that they were right around the corner and headed my way! SMILEY

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:27 AM   #19
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These zones have a progression to them.  The easiest zones are probably balanced for 140 AAs and most of the best RoK pre-raid gear.  The hardest zones are probably meant for people with nearly 200 AAs and the best pre-raid TSO items.  Some people really enjoy progressing their character and/or their skills as a player.  In fact, I think progression has been a staple of MMOs since they started. 

But, if you hate progression (and yet, you still want to play this game for some reason...), you can always ignore the harder instances.  I think there are more solo quests in this expansion than any previous one, aside from RoK.  Also, while you'd miss out on a lot of the awesome instances, there are probably more "easy" heroics instances this expansion than there were total heroic instances at the release of RoK or EoF.  I just say "probably" instead of "definitely" because "easy" is a matter of opinion.

I'm sorry to hear some people aren't enjoying this expansion as much as I am.  I am loving it

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:37 AM   #20
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erin wrote:

Haapy wrote:

erin wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have no raid gear, no mythical, & think the new heroic instances are a blast. Nu'Roga, Caverns, Scion, Mystmyr, one other I can't remember which one ... o, ya. All nicely challenging for a competent group.

Good times!

As a swashy you can get by with subpar gear, nobody checks your gear.  The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

No, seen Scion tanked in full MC with some legendary jewelry. Currently at least easier 10 instances do not require anything more than T1 shard gear OR MC + good group setup to tank them. We cleared Kor-sha with tank wearing 6 pieces of T1 shard armor. I'd save the nerfing untill competent groups in T2 shards gear + 200 AAs cannot clear them.

Great.  We weren't talking about Scion, if you read the OP, it was about places like ravenscale.  The hardest (i.e. heroic) instances.

Or else I completely misunderstood the whole OP.

Scion, sure, you can do that with MC gear, with legendary, with ROK quested.

Unless I missed something, Scion is still a heroic instance (instance full of heroic mobs). The whole OP is a complaint that undergeared people straight out of RoK with no new AAs or shard gear cannot breeze through the hardest new instances of the expansion. My point here is that those players can do HALF of new instances to eaily gear up to the point of attempting the other half in short order. A group with less than 190 AAs and T2 shard gear has no room to complain about their inability to clear the hardest heroic instance of the expansion.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:54 AM   #21
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erin wrote:

The tank can't be less than raid geared for these zones.

Actually, the tank does not need to be raid geared. not even close.

Last night, I joined a pickup group to run Scion of Ice. After about 25 minutes of looking for a tank, one of the group members said they could bring their paladin alt, but he was not very well geared. Since we couldn't find one at all, we decided to give it a go. I inspected him when he got there, and he had *full* mastercrafted, in every single slot.

We manged to move slowly through the zone, and with only a single and a tank in what would be considered the worst gear that anyone would ever wear, we managed to clear it.

Saying raid gear is needed for any of these zones simply tells me people either suck, or are not able to figure out the scripts and try to muscle through encounters.

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:29 AM   #22
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None of the easy to intermediate zones have mobs that hit as hard as mobs in RE2 (some of the harder zones have nameds that hit comparably, but I ain't met a mob yet that hits anywhere close to how hard High Shaman Vohan hits).  The only difference is the extent to which the zones are scripted.  I have not died yet because the mobs simply "hits too hard", though deaths because we didn't know the script are common.

Though obviously my opinion doesn't count because I am part of the raiding bourgeoisie (T1 raid gear) I just thought I'd throw it in there.

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:36 AM   #23
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Noaani wrote:

Saying raid gear is needed for any of these zones simply tells me people either suck, or are not able to figure out the scripts and try to muscle through encounters.

So your saying that you can do guk with a full group of MC geared folks? How about ravenscale? Since that is what the OP was chatting about. I think most if not all of us agree that the easier TSO ldon's are alot easier and sure you can do them with MC gear, probably even ap4 spells/ca's.

I also think that this thread is getting spun around simply because the Daily Double shard quest doesn't seem to care what zone it is and just hands them out which seems to cause alot of frustration. Of course given some time for folks to get T2 legendary more AP's it won't really matter. I also agree with a previous poster that I do believe the ap's make a big difference when your compairing 140 ap's vs 200 ap's. Granted some aren't the best but there are alot of good end line abilities.

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:56 AM   #24
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To me - there are several factors here that contribute to unhappy players.  There don't seem to be many folks around, and that makes getting the "ideal" group together difficult.  What I think is being lost from sight here is folks are questioning the intended difficultly of the zones added in TSO.

They progress... The devs were very specific on that.  Some are, by the devs, considered easy, some medium, some difficult.  That stands to reason that folks in "lesser" gear or even just non-professional play ability will do better in the easier zones then the most difficult.

Saying that everyone should be able to do Ravenscale as easily as Scion of Ice is about the same as saying that every one should be able to clear Veeshan's Peek as easily as they clear Protector's Realm.  Um... that ain't gonna happen.  You have to progress through the raid zones to get to the most difficult ones.  Same for the instances.  When ROK released - Crypt of Agony  was your first stop and you worked your way up to Maidens.  Or at least, that's what we did....

I don't mean to step on any toes here, but I just don't seem to see anyone noticing this - EQ2 doesn't have a magic "you cleared the zone - here's your uber gear - grats you won the game" button. (I wish I could say magic fix it button... but... um... the menders are darn close to that....)  If you want something - you have to work for it.  If you want to clear Ravenscale or Guk or any of the HARD ones, you have to work for it... get those AAs, get that shard armor, etc.  The ones that want it - will get it.  It may take a few tries, but heck, that will make the revenge on those hard mobs all the more sweet.

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Old 12-12-2008, 11:07 AM   #25
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I know this will be unacceptable to lots of folks, but... you can always mentor down to learn and try out the harder instances in the old world zones... yes, this method won't allow you to do the Guk zones and the like, but at least it gets your foot in the door.

You will still be able to complete void shard missions, the shard chest will not give you a shard, but that is a minor loss for the most part.

The HP scaling has been fixed so the zones can become much easier to complete.

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Old 12-12-2008, 11:20 AM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this expansion. This past evening and today I joined a group and went through Ravenscale Repository and last night Mistmoore Manor. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if you aren't in raid acquired gear, you won't ever be able to do these groups. I've got my mythical, got some set pieces from VP, looking to pick up some pieces from TSO very soon ... and I'm barely skating by on some of the "easier" instances.

...

*edit* I completed Manor and most of Ravescale, I'm more worried about the people who don't have my gear who won't be able to do this - and thus leave, leaving me with less people to group with.

Totally agree that TSO is a complete waste of funds for most players after the 1+year of RoK.  Server populations are so low that finding a group is generally very difficult, and one that knows what to do nearly impossible. 

Vote with your subscription, maybe SOE will 'get' that.

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Old 12-12-2008, 11:57 AM   #27
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Ohiv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

erin wrote:

Great.  We weren't talking about Scion, if you read the OP, it was about places like ravenscale.  The hardest (i.e. heroic) instances..

It was also about places like Mystmyr Manor, which I've done with a tank that was not geared as well as the OP's tank.

Considering I just did Ravenscale a bit ago, I would say I would rather do Mystmyr Manor it's a HECK of alot easier.

Which was was my point: Mystmyr Manor should not have been equated to Ravenscale, as the two are not the same difficulty at all.

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Old 12-12-2008, 12:34 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

It isn't about all of the instances. I'm pretty sure without raid gear a group won't be able to accomplish ...

Lower Corridors, Ykesha's Outer Stronghold, Ravenscale Repository, Kor'Sha, Necrotic Asylum, Palace of Ferzhul as well as most likely many nameds in Halls of the Forsaken, Anchor of Bazzul, and the Crucible (I can see how an "ideal group" might have better luck in the latter 4).

That is 9 of the 20 instances, almost half. Pretty staggering. The worst part is that the quest rewards I got for finishing Ravenscale are sooo unbelievably bad that it'd be impossible to do the zone if those were upgrades. Reading the quest rewards for Lower Corridors and Necrotic Asylum and Palace of Ferzhul quests I'm sure its the very same thing. In Ravenscale I got a weapon with a 78 rating - no WAY anyone could dps using a weapon worse than that axe and survive the zone.

Kor'Sha absolutely does not require raid gear.  In fact we did it with 2 non-level 80's in the group.

It does require some skill though.

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Old 12-12-2008, 12:42 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this expansion. This past evening and today I joined a group and went through Ravenscale Repository and last night Mistmoore Manor. It is becoming increasingly obvious that if you aren't in raid acquired gear, you won't ever be able to do these groups. I've got my mythical, got some set pieces from VP, looking to pick up some pieces from TSO very soon ... and I'm barely skating by on some of the "easier" instances.

Is it really the intention to make it so if you aren't in a raid guild, you aren't going to be able to handle over half of the instances? Is that really a way to bring new players into the game? My girlfriend signed up and started playing with me, got to 80 and got her fabled epic, and she simply can't cut it in the dungeons that I want to do - and the dungeons that she can handle: there aren't any gear upgrades for her to make her competitive.

Even me in my raid gear, I love to group and there isn't much solo content in the expansion - but I hate having to wait 4+ mid-day hours for a group of 6 raid geared people to think of standing a chance in an instance when there are so many people LFG that simply don't have that type of gear available to them. Chasing these people away is just going to shrink the player base and make it even harder to find groups (which already is becoming a chore).

Perhaps its just my server, and the reality is 90% of the game has their mythicals and raid gear ... but from where I'm standing most of the group content was designed for people who don't get their upgrades in groups and the few upgrades that they could get are unobtainable.

I would love to hear from a developer on this, or even hear from some players who don't have any raid gear that are able to do these instances. Kunark brought back a lot of friends, and it seems this expansion is starting to chase them away and it isn't even a month old.

*edit* I completed Manor and most of Ravescale, I'm more worried about the people who don't have my gear who won't be able to do this - and thus leave, leaving me with less people to group with.

I don't have this issue, I do a lot of "PUG's" and do not have problems.  I'm not mythicalled or have raid loot.  I just have legendary and ad3 spells.  Not trying to knock you or whoever you are playing with, maybe they don't know the "strats" yet or maybe they just plain suck for now or forever.  I think in a couples months after everyone works out their "solo" kink style they were given in RoK, the quality of the players will go up as everyone will then understand how to work these instances in a group.

On average we complete Deep Forge, Scions, and Cavern of the Afflicted in 40-50 mins.  So I see no issue. 

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Old 12-12-2008, 12:55 PM   #30
Junaru

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I don't understand why people are having a hard time understanding the idea of progression. Do Deep Forge over and over and over again till you get 5 pieces of shard gear. Go into lower guk over and over and over again and get T2 shard gear. Go into Outer Stronghold over and over and over again. Finally complain 6 months from now there is nothing to do and wait for the next pack.

A lot of you are reading that and thinking "Thats dumb. I don't want to grind the same zone." but raiders have learned this is what is needed to progress into harder zones. THIS IS PROGRESSION.

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