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Old 07-18-2012, 12:10 PM   #31
7foggynites

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IvyBlackrose wrote:

you missed the point while yes the aoe packs may have been a bit TOO easy to kill at least they were killable NOW  if u aoe them u dont even damage them an aoe pack should still be killable by a person with good gear just like a mob in the normal norrath would be

I know how it works in the normal game. This is how it works in a lot of other MMO's. However, have you ever stopped to think about how the strategies in a raid are different from the strategies used in a group or solo? If the strategy is so different then wouldn't the gear that's needed -also- be different? So, in this respect, why should raid gear be the most powerful thing outside of raids? Shouldn't group gear be the most powerful gear for groups? Shouldn't solo gear be the most powerful gear for solo? I think this is logical and the way it should be. I know that what you explain might be a bug in DM or unplanned, but it's my hope that this effect remains.

You have to remember that some people like to play the game. They shouldn't have to have raid gear to have a fun time. Personally, I think the gap between average gear and the best gear is too great. Same for group versus raid.

How fun the game is should NOT be about power or speed, either. It should be about strategy. Games that make us think are funner than games that just give us faster and faster things. Because that's what power in these games IS. It makes you gain experience faster. That's ALL it does!! Players should demand a lot more of developers. We should have things to actually think about.

Of course, strategies have to be within reach of players. To complete the game, all players must be able to complete the basic strategies. But players that use the best strategies should get the highest achievments - this gives them no power benefit in-game.

So anyway, stop thinking that gear should be so linear. In summary, solo and group and raid encounters are not the same and the gear shouldn't be either. It's kind of like rock paper and scissors. What works in raids won't work as well in groups. Etc.

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Old 07-18-2012, 12:15 PM   #32
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Freejazzlive wrote:

salty21db wrote:

Not 100% sure but if I recall knowing about an exploit to take advantage of game mechanics (aka gain experience in a way that wasn't meant to be gained that way) and then utilizing it and not reporting it is against the EULA or ToS.

No sense in trying to hide that fact lol.

I agree that people are just upset it got caught.  QQ.

I was almost amazed at the number of people on Freeport yesterday who disagreed that this was an exploit.

Thank You!!  I'm glad I'm not the only one.

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Old 07-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #33
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alaplayer wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

The only death penalty in EQ2 is the time it takes to run back from the respawn point.

Well the penalties incurred are EXP debt and damage to equipment that requires mending, one costs time to erase the other cost coin (hower trivial the amount).

ITT the OP is saying that the DM content should award as much EXP and the mobs should if anything be easier and the EXP come easier than it does through actually playing the game. This is wrong on every level, people should be encouraged to play the game, of course it seems that they really do not want us doing that.

Wrong. The game includes DM just as much as it includes other things. If players want to do DM then that's what they'll do. Remember that phrase "Play your way!" It's not just a passing thing. EQ2 accomodates a LOT of playstyles. The game should not exclude anyone.

You want players to play in the part of the game that YOU think is important. That's your error.

And besides, the death penalty and mending are lame and I think it's good that DM doesn't have them. This allows EQ2 to appeal in some way to people who don't like those things. That's the point: To appeal to many different players.

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Old 07-18-2012, 12:53 PM   #34
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7foggynites wrote:

alaplayer wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

The only death penalty in EQ2 is the time it takes to run back from the respawn point.

Well the penalties incurred are EXP debt and damage to equipment that requires mending, one costs time to erase the other cost coin (hower trivial the amount).

ITT the OP is saying that the DM content should award as much EXP and the mobs should if anything be easier and the EXP come easier than it does through actually playing the game. This is wrong on every level, people should be encouraged to play the game, of course it seems that they really do not want us doing that.

Wrong. The game includes DM just as much as it includes other things. If players want to do DM then that's what they'll do. Remember that phrase "Play your way!" It's not just a passing thing. EQ2 accomodates a LOT of playstyles. The game should not exclude anyone.

You want players to play in the part of the game that YOU think is important. That's your error.

And besides, the death penalty and mending are lame and I think it's good that DM doesn't have them. This allows EQ2 to appeal in some way to people who don't like those things. That's the point: To appeal to many different players.

Well I think they key to this is that the time invested in an activity should be equally rewarding whether regardless of what you do.  If one type of play is vastly superior to other types you have a problem.

Now I don't mean group play or raid play versus solo play by my statement.  Group play should be more rewarding because several people are working together to accomplish more.  DM, versus solo questing, versus solo grinding should all be pretty similar in terms of rewards.

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Old 07-18-2012, 12:59 PM   #35
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This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=52012...post_id=5775833 *Post removed for forum violations. Please communicate constructively.*
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:19 PM   #36
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Although the HPs may have been too low, that really wasn't the source of problem.  It was the Drolvarg SK's blue AE that caused the woes.  You could stay right outside aggro range and cast it on a large group of mobs.  Just a minor tweak like making it a PBAE (like a SK) would have fixed the problem.  You could still PBAE a lot of mobs for good xp which is what players are wanting.  But you wouldn't be able to PBAE a whole army.

My advice: 

*  put DM back up like it was before,

*  tweak the Drolvarg SK to a PBAE,

*  cap the DMs at 250 per run,

*  leave the XP alone (it's already on the low side),

*  ...and just watch what the players are doing.

*  consider future DM items to be purchased by a new currency (that's borked now)

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Old 07-18-2012, 01:49 PM   #37
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Grumble69 wrote:

*  tweak the Drolvarg SK to a PBAE,

it already was a PBAE , the problem was that it hits a unlimited amout of targets, whare as most player toon aoe's are "green" limited to encounter, or "blue" pbaoe but have a max number of mobs they hit.  and yes i know there are a couple that hit unlimited targets like the sk aa  aoe , but for the most part they have a max amout of mobs it can hit.

a easy fix would have been just to leave the spawners alone, and make the drov sk aoe have a max mob hit of 7 or so

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:08 PM   #38
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Nope, it's a ranged AE.

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:36 PM   #39
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*EDIT: None of this post really makes sense anymore, since the post it was replying to was removed.*

When I said that players aren't qualified to design content, I didn't mean that they're incapable of using the Dungeon Maker tool. I meant that they are not qualified to design quality, engaging game content with balanced risk vs. reward and appropriate challenge. As I said, players are conditioned to view content and rewards with a different set of priorities than designers, and that essentially gives them a conflict of interest.

The devs have explained what an exploit is, check the EULA. If you're expecting a detailed document that spells out every possible situation in which you could be considered exploiting, forget it. They leave such determinations intentionally vague so that we crafty players can't try to justify cheating via tricky wordplay and legalese.

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:47 PM   #40
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

When I said that players aren't qualified to design content, I didn't mean that they're incapable of using the Dungeon Maker tool. I meant that they are not qualified to design quality, engaging game content with balanced risk vs. reward and appropriate challenge..

It truly saddens me that this relatively simple concept has to be explained to some people.

Yes, it's my opinion that most of the player-made dungeons I've been in have been terrible, & it's further my opinion that this is never going to change, because far too many people want the one-room FAST MARKS FAST XP LOL model.

What astonishes me most, however, is that SOE either failed to see that would happen, or else simply didn't care until players took it to the extreme.

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:51 PM   #41
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[email protected] wrote:

There are charms that drops off of cov dist trash.  I went in boxed a healer and killed trash and got charms for my alts.

There are charms that come off dungeon maker.. I went in killed trash and got charms for my alts lol..

Yet one is an exploit and one isn't??.. 

I have never heard anyone describing either of those as an exploit, so I don't know where you're coming up with this.

What WAS an exploit was stepping into a room, targetting ONE mob, casting Ire Slice, waiting a couple seconds, & then exiting the dungeon to fat XP, AAXP, & marks. IMO, people who can't see THAT was an exploit are in extreme denial. But, since it was accomplished via SOE giving us de-tier & de-level items in the dungeon maker marketplace, IMO it's entirely THEIR fault, & we shouldn't be punished for it.

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Old 07-18-2012, 02:55 PM   #42
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You really can't blame SOE too much. They simply made the same mistake that countless other developers have made in the past. If you're familiar with City of Heroes and their "Mission Architect" feature, it was the same deal. When it was released there were countless exploits to level super-fast and earn tons of currency. Over time, those exploits were found and fixed, and now nobody really uses it at all except as a convenient, customizable exp farm. It's the same way in every MMO that tries to implement user-generated content, but for whatever reason, each developer seems to think their version will be different.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:09 PM   #43
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

You really can't blame SOE too much.

Sure I can: as you imply, past history is an outstanding indicator of future performance, which implies that game designers who fail to learn from past history need to be castigated for that failure.

They brought this on themselves, so I've no sympathy for them at all.

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Old 07-18-2012, 05:30 PM   #44
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

The devs have explained what an exploit is, check the EULA. If you're expecting a detailed document that spells out every possible situation in which you could be considered exploiting, forget it. They leave such determinations intentionally vague so that we crafty players can't try to justify cheating via tricky wordplay and legalese.

Yes and no.  

* Is simply setting up a group of mobs to make them easy to farm xp/DMs an exploit?  No.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with farming or mob grinding.

* Were some of these encounters too trivial for the amount of xp that was being awarded?  Most definitely.  It was the fastest way to get to 90 that I've seen to date.

* Was that an exploit?  For some dungeons, probably.  You could make a strong case for it.  But where is that line between exploit and just being a fast way to earn xp?  e.g.  If it takes 6hrs to get to 90 instead of 3, is that an exploit?  Does it need to be 12hrs?

I have no idea.  I'm a player not a dev and it's not my job to make that decision.  I doubt that even the devs have a hard rule on what is too fast.  And I think that's why we didn't see any bans or player resets.  Some folks were probably exploiting while others were not.  There just wasn't an easy way to say.

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Old 07-20-2012, 03:59 PM   #45
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again on dbl xp weekend i levelled a toon from 1 - 90 in about 9 hours with the dm event the other night i levelled a toon from 1 - 90 in about 7 hours, DM was actually equivalent to powerlevelling basically

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Old 07-21-2012, 01:41 PM   #46
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I've a feeling this had more to do with fast, easy Dungeon Marks, more so than leveling speed.

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Old 07-21-2012, 02:29 PM   #47
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Freejazzlive wrote:

I've a feeling this had more to do with fast, easy Dungeon Marks, more so than leveling speed.

Yeah, I have that feeling too.  Or at least that the fast marks had as much to do with it as the XP/AAs did.  And I've heard you could get a bunch of those 44-slot boxes in a row if you saved up your tokens and then clicked really quickly.  I'll bet the amount of shared banks loaded with 8 of them started getting to SOE, lol.

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