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Old 06-15-2012, 09:15 PM   #31
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I'm interested to see what happens to the Discord set gear, and pvp critical mitigation. I have adapted to every change since Kos, but this will be a rough one because of the time invested in getting the faction and tokens. It seems it will increase the amount of pvp though, because now perhaps the pve crowd will be more inclined to open world pvp. I guess we will find out soon, or not looking at the track record of previous promised pvp updates. The BGs should get more busy for the pve servers atleast, maybe that is the core reason for this update.

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Old 06-16-2012, 06:30 AM   #32
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I am not even participating in this teir9 garbage anymore once this change takes place. So once again we have to fight raiders in absurd gear ? What fun is that ? l would rather head right back down to teir4 for my PVP, to hear the whiners call hacks in a zone when their mercs are causing it,and up against a x4 of freeps you cant win against with a group of 4, than even waste my time on this new rubbish. Raiders you wanted this you got it. The moaning paid off didn't it ? Now you can go owning 3rd progression guilds in your best gear. Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!

Pathetic ! ...I also enjoyed wearing full PVP armor that cost 40k, topped  very low stats  jewelry,weapons,and charms from 2007. I can still see the dust on it !! I sneeze everytime I macro on my PVP jewelry !!!

Rock on !!! PVP is back kids !!! From the raiders choice !! LONG live Naggy !!!lol

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Old 06-16-2012, 11:25 PM   #33
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A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.

The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,

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Old 06-17-2012, 12:06 AM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:

 Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!

I took a long break a while back, when I was on Venekor and the level cap was 70.  I came back on Nagafen and the level cap was 90.....just before the gear separation.  There were warfields, battlegrounds, instant travel to and from anywhere.  Before the break I had a mixture of gear ...Fabled heroic, Fabled PvP, and Fabled low-mid Raid gear.  All available to anyone basicly, from different playstyles though.  The thing is it worked.  Gear had to be earned but your hands weren't tied as to how you could earn it, and you could still compete with pretty much anyone ....a couple class balance issues did exist.  When I came back it was the raiders and people from other servers who were whining because PvP gear was better than some top level raid pieces.  Next thing you know gear seperation.  now i gotta level to 90 with PvE gear because I don't have the faction for PvP gear, BG's were screwed up, couldn't afford the stupid high prices of MC PvP gear.  My full set of maligned Intention gear is worthless because there are new PvP stats that are not on them.  Open PvP in Freeport, cant bank, sell chit, mend, broker without losing all your plats.  Finally got into a guild and got PvP armor made for a decent price (WThedoublehockeysticks no open PvP in Qeynos?).  Still haven't gotten but a couple pieces of the real PvP armor because I dunno what changes are coming and don't wanna waste tokens.  Thing is gear will be available to those who do the WORK, wether PvP or PvE if SOE gets it right....and people who don't will get rolled over till they quit or do the work....It all works out.

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Vicenzo wrote: And the zoning thing is hardly a tactic is it? Its up there with 'Waaah I'm losing - I'm going home'. I'm sure when Joe Frazier refused to come out for the 15th round in Manila, he didn't claim a tie...
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Old 06-17-2012, 03:53 AM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

I am not even participating in this teir9 garbage anymore once this change takes place. So once again we have to fight raiders in absurd gear ? What fun is that ? l would rather head right back down to teir4 for my PVP, to hear the whiners call hacks in a zone when their mercs are causing it,and up against a x4 of freeps you cant win against with a group of 4, than even waste my time on this new rubbish. Raiders you wanted this you got it. The moaning paid off didn't it ? Now you can go owning 3rd progression guilds in your best gear. Better yet go slap around poor noobs that don't raid,and only can get SS instance gear in their hands. Eventually that's going to be garbage once the raiders get their hands on the best. Full geared !!

Pathetic ! ...I also enjoyed wearing full PVP armor that cost 40k, topped  very low stats  jewelry,weapons,and charms from 2007. I can still see the dust on it !! I sneeze everytime I macro on my PVP jewelry !!!

Rock on !!! PVP is back kids !!! From the raiders choice !! LONG live Naggy !!!lol

K...lets take this one at a time....

You can choose to pvp or not thats your choice.  Gear seperation has only been around since the late part of SF...prior to that unless you want to go back to the days before anyone but exiles had myths in ROK then you have a small point about raiders in "absurb" gear but again exiles back than were not unkillable...other than that the absurb raid gear disadvantage was nothing more than a myth.

As for mercs in pvp I agree they should be allowed on this server but not in pvp so I agree on that.

Hate to break it to you but it wasnt just raiders who have been against gear seperation since it came out just about everyone from die hard pvper's to pver's have been complaining bout it...gear seperation was and is an extremely lazy design from the outset.

As for the current pvp gear...its complete cookie cutter garbage that didnt even take into account the need to pvp potency for shamans for petes sake...they truely need to go back to designing pvp gear like they did in TSO that was essentially the apex of the best overall designed pvp gear that was dual use.

PVP has many issues with it currently...removing gear seperation will not address all but some of the issues but its a start to fix some of the host of errors previous pvp devs implemented as "fixes".

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Old 06-17-2012, 03:56 AM   #36
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.

The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,

Tal run along to the battlegrounds forums since you dont play on Naggy....as for the 9 people left jab...lol perhaps if you had a toon here wherein you may learn real pvp strats instead of restating BG strats you may understand how far off you really are.

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Old 06-17-2012, 09:01 PM   #37
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I find it funny when Tala posts here cause

1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )

2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )

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Old 06-17-2012, 11:32 PM   #38
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[email protected] wrote:

As for the current pvp gear...its complete cookie cutter garbage that didnt even take into account the need to pvp potency for shamans for petes sake...they truely need to go back to designing pvp gear like they did in TSO that was essentially the apex of the best overall designed pvp gear that was dual use.

PVP has many issues with it currently...removing gear seperation will not address all but some of the issues but its a start to fix some of the host of errors previous pvp devs implemented as "fixes".

Since we're playing 'remember when', the PvP/PvE stat separation was initially supposed to come out in seasons and was going to be refined to further address damage output (toughness version 2.0, etc).  It was one approach to the issue and if it had been continually developed it could have also addressed class imbalances without impacting PvE.

The devs decided it was too much work so gave up on it.

I agree with Infernalbeauty -- the nonstop raid whiners are getting what they cried for.  They raged because their hours of PvE raidtime didn't pay off in PvP.  With that logic, PvP faction gear should be good for HM raiding, or even better, since it takes longer to acquire.

My guess is that this debate isn't going to matter anyway.  Everyone will be one or two shotted, whoever gets that first shot in wins -- raid gear or naked since the small steps taken to mitigate damage is about to be removed.

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Old 06-18-2012, 10:52 AM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

I find it funny when Tala posts here cause

1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )

2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )

Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!

Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)

This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)

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Old 06-18-2012, 04:40 PM   #40
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I find it funny when Tala posts here cause

1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )

2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )

Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!

Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)

This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)

Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.

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Old 06-18-2012, 05:52 PM   #41
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I find it funny when Tala posts here cause

1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )

2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )

Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!

Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)

This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)

Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.

PvP Discussion is anything involved with matters that are player versus player in any way.

- Dueling

- Battlegrounds.

- Open World PvP

- Arenas

Thank you.

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:55 PM   #42
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If Battle Grounds is PvP then why does it have it own section in the forums instead of being here in the PvP section?

At least put a disclaimer in your signature stating that you don't really PvP but in a literally defined sense of the word you think you do.

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Old 06-19-2012, 12:03 AM   #43
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I find it funny when Tala posts here cause

1) he does not ahve a toon named Talathion on Naggy ( big suprise )

2) There is no toon named Talathion on AB either ( makes me wonder who he is really or even if he plays this game )

Sorry, I thought this said "PvP Discussion" not "Nagafen Discussion" I will leave now!

Anyways, this is the step in the right direction, and i've given up on class balance along time ago, I just accept that some classes (brawler) are classes I cannot ever beat in pvp. (unless they are in treasured gear/terrible.)  Accept that fact, I did. (I will just bring a Chanter along to burn brawlers down.)

This update makes Mercenarys from one shotting people to almost useless in PvP, I think a Mercenary attacking me in PvE Gear would actually HELP me more then my enemy now. (because they do very little damage/proc my procs.)

Just gonna say Tal your still speaking with a BG's perspective not a pvp one....as for the discussion being PVP it is as in open world you really should be commenting in the carebears section..opps I mean BG's.

PvP Discussion is anything involved with matters that are player versus player in any way.

- Dueling ( PVE Rule Set )

- Battlegrounds. ( Mixed PvE/PvP Rule Set )

- Open World PvP ( PvP Rule Set )

- Arenas ( PvE Rule Set )

Thank you.

The additions in Red should help you out some Tala.  Now go bug the BG's section since you dont have a toon on Naggy and obviously do not understand Open World PvP.

Wanted to add this also

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

A step in the right direction, THANK YOU SOE.

The 9 people left on Nagafen will be happy they will be getting more PvP,

You made it clear that you understand that this is the Naggy forum not just the PvP forum with this lil attempted jab.  Have a nice day.

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Old 06-19-2012, 05:48 PM   #44
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From BG Forums..

Windstalker wrote:

We're really excited about the play tests we have been doing internally with Battlegrounds right now.  It's been a lot of fun and we're looking forward to getting it on Test next week.

Later this week and early next week before Test/Test Copy opens with the changes, we will give you more details -- starting Thursday with a webcast with designers and then with a few posts.

We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!

Well, at least our brand new producer is showing some interest in PvP. 

Anyways, sounds like this webcast will have a decent amount to do with PvP, might as well tune in. It's at Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time on Twitch TV.

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Old 06-20-2012, 04:14 AM   #45
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[email protected] wrote:

From BG Forums..

Windstalker wrote:

We're really excited about the play tests we have been doing internally with Battlegrounds right now.  It's been a lot of fun and we're looking forward to getting it on Test next week.

Later this week and early next week before Test/Test Copy opens with the changes, we will give you more details -- starting Thursday with a webcast with designers and then with a few posts.

We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!

Well, at least our brand new producer is showing some interest in PvP. 

Anyways, sounds like this webcast will have a decent amount to do with PvP, might as well tune in. It's at Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time on Twitch TV.

If past experience is any indicator, we are looking at a whopping 5 total minutes discussing upcoming pvp/pve changes and the remainder of the time how great dungeon finder/maker/SOEMote is /will be again.

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:06 AM   #46
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"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer).  They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more.  EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.

Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on Twitch TV! The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. 

For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"

I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.

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Old 06-20-2012, 01:30 PM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:

"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer).  They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more.  EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.

Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on Twitch TV! The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes. 

For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"

I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.

Im not very optimistic, The things needed to be done to fix pvp will never happen. Sure making all PVE gear work in PVP will help a little, and perhaps one gear system could open the possiblity to bring back some type of an Avatar mob people can fight over again. But they have not spoken of how to balance PVE stats into pvp.(and if they have please PM a link) I see this update just blowing up in SOE's face, and thus will have a repeat issue with people complaining to fix pvp and there will be no fix for another 2 years.If they would remove Strat Flags from guild halls i honestly would be back in a heartbeat. Nothing is better than blocking a guild from raiding for hours.  

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Old 06-20-2012, 02:03 PM   #48
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[email protected] wrote:

I remain optimistic and it sounds like there are big pvp changes coming if they called it out like this.

These are not the pvp changes you're looking for...

/waves hand

In all seriousness when PVP changes are getting talked about again around the same time as all the changes to level agnostic play and similar BG related changes,  I'm not sure I like what they are selling.

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Old 06-20-2012, 03:21 PM   #49
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Windstalker wrote:

We'd love you to come and test it out using all levels of characters. There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!

Obviously I desire years of overdue PvP updates/changes to happen all at once.... it's not going to happen.  Many of the things people ask for just will never happen either.  You cannot ask SoE to remove in-game options that all PvE servers have (bells, guild flags, BGs, etc...).  Nagafen is a PvE server first, with all the bells and whistles that come with that.  What Nagafen has that none of the other servers do is an option to attack a person of the opposing faction (PvP).  So the only things you can ask SoE to add/change are PvP related updates.  Remove immunity timers, prevent flying/jumping mounts during a warfield, balance combat, etc... Wish people could realize this and stop mudding up PvP complains with things SoE will never "remove" from Nagafen.  If it's available on a PvE server, it will always be available on Nagafen. 

I quoted Windstalkers update for one reason only... " There's still tweaking/balancing to be done!"  This is why I'm optimistic.  Will they fail at balancing? ...previous track record says yes.  But I like that he stated balancing needs to be done and test will be availble soon to see how.  Log on, test copy and help them.  That's really my point....

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Old 06-20-2012, 03:22 PM   #50
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As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.

I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:55 PM   #51
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The BOLD part made me shudder.  The Fighter community has generally been at peace with each other for the past year with most in agreeement that Zerks need some tweaking but that in general all fighters run heroic content well if geared for the task (not over geared), spec'd and played well.

"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer). They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more. EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.

Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on Twitch TV! The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes.

For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"

 

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:53 AM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:

The BOLD part made me shudder.  The Fighter community has generally been at peace with each other for the past year with most in agreeement that Zerks need some tweaking but that in general all fighters run heroic content well if geared for the task (not over geared), spec'd and played well.

"Changes are coming to PVP and fighters class for EverQuest II. Host Dave "Smokejumper" Georgeson (ExecutiveDirector of Development) is going to discuss the upcoming changes with Akil "Lyndro" Hooper (Lead Designer), Mike "Xelgad" Ganz (Associate Game Designer), and Brian "Zuglash" Ferguson (Associate Game Designer). They have lots of details to share about PVP, fighters and more. EverQuest II fans do not want to miss this webcast.

Join us on Thursday, June 21, 2012, at 4:00 p.m. US Pacific Time* on Twitch TV! The webcast is expected to last about 20 minutes.

For PVP fans and fighters this is a must see webcast!"

 

Yeah and my paladin would like to not get outhealed by a monk. Would also like to have a stoneskin or two so that I can tank drunder hm without relying on healer deathsaves for dts on a 40-60sec timer. Unfortunately the useless single stoneskin they added to loh doesn't rly do anything for me.

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Old 06-26-2012, 01:48 AM   #53
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[email protected] wrote:

As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.

I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.

I felt tso gear was some of the best pvp gear. raiders did complain i think even blue servers complained about it because it was good gear for both pvp and pve.Soe listened to everyone else but the pvpers and next thing you know we had toughness and gear seperation that very few wanted.

I thank soe for finally listing and seeing gear seperation was bad.But will you please see that mercs in pvp combat is also bad if look back in the forums youll see its about unpopular or more as gear seperation was.

oh yea let pve servers throw a fit no sweat off my back till it starts influencings soes decsion making when it comes to naggy.

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Old 07-05-2012, 01:22 AM   #54
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The problems with Open World PVP go back a long ways.

I started on Rallos Zek in EQ1 in March 1999. Played until 2008 every so often.

Played on Shadowbane and Anarchy Online.

1. In all the years I've played, the biggest thing is griefing. Always has been.

2. The second biggest thing is not having safe zones to reliably level up and gear up.

^^^

I'll adress the griefing problem first....

I'll start off by explaining why there's a PvP-Level Range implemented in most, if not all PvP-based MMORPGs. The reason it's there is to prevent the case where your opponent is overpowered. Obviously, if a level 90 waltzes into your level 10 playpen and attacks you, you'll die in one or two hits. What fun is that? That's griefing. Nobody likes it. That's why it's universally accepted that there's a PvP-Level Range limitation in-place to prevent this kind of situation. So players that're within +/- 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 (or whatever) levels versus your level are PvP-enabled.

Now that you understand what a PvP-Level Range is for, I need to address something else that, for one reason or another, escapes the awareness of some people. Levels are not the only way that your opponent can be overpowered. Twinking, raid gear, high numbers of aa's, hacking, and various other things can greatly impact the killing power and survivability of an opponent, depending on which game you're playing. If these things are not taken into account when limiting PvP between different players then the consequence is that you get a result that very much resembles what would happen if there was no PvP-Level Range restriction in-place. I saw this in EQ1, and I see it in EQ2. For example, two different players can have drastically different AA's and gear and be the same level, yet both have a widely different killing power and survivability. With no limitation placed on the PvP, it'll heavily weight in the favor of the strong(er) player. This results in a situation where one of them has little to zero chance of winning the battle.

So a restriction that's like the PvP-Level Range needs to be placed on overall killing power and survivability. This could be an overall value that represents HP and Resists and Dps and AC and so on. If your opponent is outside of a specific killing power and survivability range then he/she cannot attack you and neither can you attack them. This would be consistent with what a PvP-Level Range restriction accomplishes and would reduce a lot of complaints.

Another thing that needs to almost always be added to make things fairer is a scoring system that takes into account the overall killing power and survivability of two opponents locked in battle and gives the lesser player a bonus if they win a fight and gives the superior player a negative bonus if they win the fight. This is implemented AFTER hard restrictions are considered that totally prevent PvP from taking place. The goal of this is to reward players who win a battle against an even or better match and to discourage players who win a battle against a lesser opponent.

Of course, if you killing a single player more than once within a period of time you should be penalized. How this is done can be different in different games and there's no universal way of penalizing a griefer resorting to this.

Another thing to consider is a special type of ganking. This happens when a player watches another player in a PvE encounter and waits until their HP is low and then springs into action, killing them rapidly without a real fight. This results in the attacking player (the ganker) bieng overpowered relative to the other player. Even though they might both be the same level with equal killing power and survivability, the circumstnaces of hte killing lead to a griefing scenario that's not unlike what would happen if a level 70 kills a level 10 or a high aa level 5 kills a low aa level 5. This scenario is not as simple as the others because it's not just a straight cross-checking of numbers. One has to ask how it came about? Forging answers to this is extremely important as ganking is a very common method used by griefers.

Another type of ganking is when multiple players attacking a single player. There's no chance for them to win. There needs to be a way of discouraging or preventing players from doing this.

If most of these things are not resolved then Open World Pvp will not work. Griefing is TOO BIG an issue. In fact, this is the primary reason PvP has not worked well on PvP-exclusive servers in EQ1 and EQ2 and in other MMORPGs doing this.

Now, about safe zones....

Many players, for one reason or another, sometimes find themselves not in the mood for pvp. Maybe they're not well geared yet or don't have many aa's or they're just plain new to the game and don't know how to play. Anyway, there needs to be safe places they can go to play the game and not also be attacked by other players. Safe zones should not offer the best gear or best experience, but they should be there for players seeking them out. This is a great way to bring in new players to the game and is also good for veterans who're just taking a break from PvP.

Instances do not achieve this if they put the player in harms way at any point inside or outside. And having lots of zones in the game does not achieve it either. Safe zones do not have strings attached. You can go all the way to max level in them. They will never have the best gear or rewards, but that's the price you pay on a PvP-server. As stated already, they're great for new/returning players.

.....

I'll end it here.

I think a Open World PvP MMORPG needs special work. I don't think Nagafen is recieving this attention.

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Old 07-05-2012, 02:24 AM   #55
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poster above me...i read the 2 "problems" you addressed; you're being a scrub...griefing/not having a place to level is not a problem in this game; stop crying...its because of ppl like you that this game is bad. hopefully after these changes we can have a little something to look forward to....

What are they doing  about mercs? I came back about 3 days ago and mercs seem stupid OP especially if you have rare mercs...

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:33 PM   #56
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Make me Dev and I will fix your broken game and make you mad cash money.

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Old 07-05-2012, 04:54 PM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:

As for the gear changes... I like the PvP/PvE gear separation.  I've focused alot of time gearing up my toons for PvP (only) and PvP combat prior to GU63 was actually very balanced for group PvP.  My hope is these changes don't just trump all my work.... but if they do, maybe they will draw out more targets and that's fine.  I'll start over.... I do recall enjoying PvE at one time cause it gave me PvP advantages.I've been logging in the past few days and working on the access quest for SS.... ugh... you can't work these zones anymore with the gear separation, so this "revert" back is necessary.  Especially with all the contested mobs guilds/groups focus on now (which is great for PvP).  Again.. GU63 added much more contested heroic zone work, which wrecks havoc on the PvP/PvE gear separation concept.

I wanted to add... you really can't ask them to add PvE stats to PvP gear.  They did that in TSO and if Nagafen had any decent faction raid guilds during that time, Nagafen would have hosted a WW1st guild.  PvE servers would have a fit about it.

Why do you think they stopped making pvp gear like that, after all that was the way pvp gear was designed up until the end of TSO and the beginning of SF....so complaints from blue server guilds and a certain exile guild at the time on naggy got them changed...gratz as they got us garbage cookie cutter pvp gear that started us on the road to gear seperation...as for pvp after 63 being balanced your kidding yourself.

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Old 07-05-2012, 05:01 PM   #58
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Onyx didn't ask for cookie cutter anything, it was the bluebie noobs in faction that wanted an equal chance with Onyx. They feel like they deserve a way to be good instantaneously just because they are on a PVP server. There shouldn't be a drastic difference in PVP and PVE gear, but it shouldn't be the same. If something is different about it, it should probably be the procs. Like Purifier for example, almost useless in PVE, but in PVP it's still one of the best weapons out there. Items like that should be what defines PVP gear.And get rid of BG's and WF's. Terrible ideas on both. You're killing open world pvp. K thx

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Old 07-05-2012, 07:02 PM   #59
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Drew1 wrote:

poster above me...i read the 2 "problems" you addressed; you're being a scrub...griefing/not having a place to level is not a problem in this game; stop crying...its because of ppl like you that this game is bad. hopefully after these changes we can have a little something to look forward to....

What are they doing  about mercs? I came back about 3 days ago and mercs seem stupid OP especially if you have rare mercs...

You have no idea.

Did you know I played on Sullon Zek in EQ1? You know how hardcore that's? I never ****** about it. I kept on trucking.

But I also know that I'm an extreme minority. Most people canont take the same level of punishment. In fact, I think most "pkillers" do not realize their ability to absorb torture. Even though I do not consider myself a true "pkiller" since it was me that was doing all the running and I probably only had a couple dozen kills in all the years I played, I do think that I share my ability to take punishment with "pkillers".

So I understand that for PvP to succeed it needs more rules to protect against griefing and ganking.

I know what makes people leave. I bore witness to it. Griefing is at the top of the list. There's a reason that PvP doesn't do well in PvE games. And there's a reaosn that PvP is not nearly as popular as PvE. You add up the "carebears" and you add up the "pkillers" and you'll discover that the "pkillers" are so small you need a microscope to see them. Carebears are in the tens of millions.

The only form of PvP that has success in PvE games is the kind that's heavily controlled. Bottom-line, most players in MMORPGs don't want to be griefed or put into a position where they don't have much chance. Having some control is a big part of how a player has fun. That's why PvE is so much more preferred than PvP. You take control away and feed the player to the lions (the pkillers) and the player won't usually have fun. You see, there's no strategy (except running) in losing to a far superior opponent. And strategy is what's fun.

What I was suggesting was to retain the Open World without turning to BG-style PvP. BG-style PvP is instanced and while it does give players more control it's not the kind I prefer. I prefer Open Worlds. But the thing is, they're a different beast and in order to succeed with them you have to give them special attention. You have to control griefing/ganking and you have to have some safezones too. But by putting developer time in the Battlegrounds they sort of turn the attention away from Nagafen and Open World PvP. I think they're so invested in instanced content that they've essentially abandoned any hopes of Open World PvP and therefore have abandoned Nagafen.

The sum of my post was to say I don't think SOE has -ever- given the proper attention in EQ1 or EQ2 to succeed with Open World PvP. I don't think they ever really "got it." Never understood just how hard it's to do. What's worse is that they've not invested much if any heart into their PvP servers. While neither EQ1 nor EQ2 is a PvP game, it doesn't diminsh the feeling of abandonment. All of this is far more of an accident than it's a work of engineering and art. They pretty much taped and glued PvP on top of Everquest and then left it alone.

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Old 07-05-2012, 07:10 PM   #60
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7foggynites wrote:

You have no idea.

Did you know I played on Sullon Zek in EQ1? You know how hardcore that's?

I know what makes people leave. Griefing is at the top of the list. There's a reason that PvP doesn't do well in PvE games. And there's a reaosn that PvP is not nearly as popular as PvE. You add up the "carebears" and you add up the "pkillers" and you'll discover that the "pkillers" are so small you need a microscope to see them. Carebears are in the tens of millions.

The only form of PvP that has success in PvE games is the kind that's heavily controlled. Bottom-line, most players in MMORPGs don't want to be griefed or put into a position where they don't have much chance. Having some control is a big part of how a player has fun. That's why PvE is so much more preferred than PvP. You take control away and feed the player to the lions (the pkillers) and the player won't usually have fun.

What I was suggesting was to retain the Open World without turning to BG-style PvP. BG-style PvP is instanced and while it does give players more control it's not the kind I prefer. I prefer Open Worlds. But the thing is, they're a different beast and in order to succeed with them you have to give them special attention. The sum of my post was to say I don't think SOE has -ever- given the proper attention in EQ1 or EQ2 to succeed with Open World PvP.

I disagree with griefing being an issue. If you played in ROK you would know for sure, because I guarantee you 99% of the population was getting griefed at one point, myself included, and the population was never steadily decreasing. If anything, it was increasing.

Based on reading the rest of your post, I truly believe you came here post-TSO and you are completely ignorant and have no idea of what you are talking about. Population and PVP was fun, regardless of getting rolled or not. I have been on both ends of the spectrum as my incredibly terrible brigand and my awesome possom troub, and while it's fun rolling everyone with a stacked group of good players in good gear, beating players in terrible gear with a group of 2-3 friends is a much better feeling and much more rewarding in the end. Regardless, an adrenaline rush was almost guaranteed to be had every single day in ROK-TSO if you were pvp'ing. There were multiple KP's open every day at nearly any given time.

However, the main issue at hand is some people have had a taste of being treated like carebears so they will feel neglected and think they are owed something if something changes. But I think people would cope with it and enjoy the change if they knew that meant population would return. They need to fix a lot of things about PvP, and while they are on the road to doing something useful, some of their changes are completely outrageous.

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