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Old 06-02-2012, 02:59 PM   #91
Onorem

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7foggynites wrote:

I made a basic post about mudflation here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=516580#5756925

Basically, here's what happens.

With each new expansion and content addition, the game grows bigger and the amount of things you need to do to reach maximum level/aa/gear/spells/etc increases. So, for example, the level cap increases from 50 to 60 to 65 to 75 to 80 and so on. The aa's go from 100 to 150 to 170 to 200 to 250. If the game did not "streamline" the experience then it would take increasingly longer for a new player to reach maximum potential. This would create a circumstance where the oldest players have attained a level of progression that new players will likely never reach. So what happens is a divide forms between the "elite" veterans and the "whiner" new players. Companies resolve this by shortening the progression time to a specified value and then keeping it there so that new players have a chance to reach the potential maximum abilities of their character. What this does is allows them to level up faster and get their other things (aa's/gear/etc) faster as well. They can even skip content altogether because it's more efficient to do it that way in many cases.

If mudflation didn't happen then if you're playing an old(er) game you would likely NEVER reach maximum potential for your character. You would always be battling the "elites" and grinding an uphill treadmill with a goal in mind that you can't reach.

Again, this happens because content (read: progression) is constantly being added. Imagine that the content in a game is like a book. Now imagine that the first people who started reading had to read 600 pages and in each ensuing addition 100 pages were added. Lets say that 10 editions later there're 1600 pages. For any newcomer to this book, 1600 pages will seem daunting!!!! They may not even pick up the book simply because they may never finish it. Now this situation is different from a MMORPG because any newcomer to this book will want to compete with the first readers of this book. But in order to do that they have to read through 1600 pages and in all that time the first readers of the book will themselves be reading new(er) editions. So it will be an uphill battle for them to be at a competitive stage.

Lets also say that the average player only stays with a game for 1 year of total time. So any game that requires more than 1 year of investment will become unviable for the average player if he/she desires to compete with the top players.

And there're other factors ... including the rate of new incoming players and technology changes and so many other factors. I only scratched the surface in my linked post to all of the things that interact and confuse it.

If it's a good book, I'd be happy that I had so much to look forward to. In this situation, I'm wondering why the novel turned into a tabloid newspaper halfway through.

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Old 06-02-2012, 03:17 PM   #92
7foggynites

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Onorem wrote:

..................

If players weren't so competitive-focused, then it would indeed be interesting to contemplate all of the things you have ahead of you. But you also have to keep in mind that any deviations in player population that're not planned for in the design can mess everything up and cause changes to happen. For example, if a dungeon is made for a population of X amount and in the future it's 25% of this value then it won't meet the population requirements. Thus, the players in that content will be unable to progress. This is just one small example.

What would it be like to play an MMORPG where they never streamline? Well, even if they got everything else right, there's the graphics problem. After several expansions, what happens is that the technology used to create the initial graphics is outdated. So are the developers going to go back and update it? Probably not! And this goes for lots of other things, including quest text and obscure dungeons/quest/etc mechanics (think about the layout of a dungeon and the objectives and the strategies you will use that're unique to that dungeon) and etc. So players adventuring in older stuff might get discouraged by outdated things that cause confusion or surprise.

To me, the fact that some modern Treasured items eclipse older Legendary items (in similar places) is a normal phenomena. And hte idea that Legendary items become the new Treasured items isn't unexpected either. Perhaps SOE has a new naming scheme in-mind? Maybe they did it because the items are especially powerful and they didn't want treasured items being more powerful than legendary or maybe they did it to encourage silver plays to unlock items or any number of other possible reasons.

The reason I don't unlock items on my silver account is because my expectations are that I'd find a lot more legendary items in my lower levels than in my higher levels. I'm still low level! In fact, I plan to stay low level for a while so that I can explore the different quests and still feel like i'm gaining something from them. If I go straight to 90 and mentor down to 15 or something then the earnings I get from quests or dungeons will seem meager to me. Thus, getting those rewards when I am actually 15 feels more meaningful. It's also a bit more challenging since I've read that mentored characters are very powerful. I like challenge so for me it's preferred over something too easy. My goal right now is to experience as much content as I can and not rush to meet the higher tiers. There're some 5000+ quests in the game and I'm not even at 100 yet, I think. So I've got a ways to go and I'm having fun. (I have some unlockers for later)

It may turn out that I love playing older content so much that I'll use unlockers. But this assumes I become a progression character. I did not make my character with this goal in mind. I just want to fill up my achievements, do all the quests, see the different content. It doesn't bother me right now that I won't be able to use Legendary or Fabled, but might at some point since I really haven't been looting it yet.

Ultimately, I want to get DoV and then use my unlockers.

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Old 06-02-2012, 03:35 PM   #93
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7foggynites wrote:

Onorem wrote:

..................

If players weren't so competitive-focused, then it would indeed be interesting to contemplate all of the things you have ahead of you. But you also have to keep in mind that any devitations in player population that're not planned for in the code can mess everything up and cause changes to happen. For example, if a dungeon is made for a population of X amount and in the future it's 25% of this value then it won't meet the population requirements. Thus, the players in that content will be unable to progress. This is just one small example.

I did not say ".................."

"If players weren't so competitive-focused, then"

Not all, but many players are competivite-focused, so why bother wondering about what would happen if they weren't? If my aunt had...she'd be my uncle. Who cares?

Dungeons shouldn't be planned with population as a focus, but with the current skill and gear of the current population (Hopefully without barring new players from any chance to catch up, which they very clearly have in the most recent game update.)

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Old 06-02-2012, 03:48 PM   #94
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Onorem wrote:

I did not say ".................."

...............

Dungeons shouldn't be planned with population as a focus, but with the current skill and gear of the current population (Hopefully without barring new players from any chance to catch up, which they very clearly have in the most recent game update.)

I'm just trying to "streamline" the thread so it's not too much text to look through.

Dungeons can be made with population in mind (and often are.. like group-based dungeons or solo-based dungeons or raid encounters or etc) and they're made with gear/stats in mind too. Dungeons that can dynamically respond to population are also possible. Lots of things are. The point to make here is not about population or some specific thing, but that as time passes the condtions can change too and if content cannot change with them then it becomes increasingly difficult for the developers to keep them up to date. This is a problem with the whole idea of not "streamlining" a MMORPG. There're just so many things in a game world that can degrade with time.

When I originally saw your statement about how a book can turn into a tabloid, I took it that you meant the game can change from one genre to another or that a game can be changed to something that's not fun anymore. So I asked myself: What would happen if they didn't change games to keep progression time in one place? You may also be referring to things like New Game Experience (NGE) and not mudflation. Mudlfation can also potentially make somebody think a game is not fun anymore, just like NGE's can.

Also... when I say "content" I use it interchangeable with progression.

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Old 06-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #95
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I do like this thread:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=515025

It's a good point (i guess) that it's funny to get a Legendary item after killing 10 rats. However, this is all subjective and relative to the changes in the game. I think (for example) that getting a Treasured item for killing 10 rats s equally silly. However, this is not with context to Everquest 2 but with my other feelings on things non-EQ related.

I think it's plausible they did this to get silver accounts to unlock things at the higher levels. One could look at the lower levels as just a taste of the game. This is what they use to hook em. Then when they're higher, they have to pay more.

What I find sad is that the lower level game is looked at as a "taste" of the game. IMHO, there's far more content pre-90 than there is content post-90. So the idea that it's just a "taste" is preposterous if we're only looking at the magnitudes. However, if you're looking at hte competitive aspects then ti's true that the lower levels are just a taste of the game. You don't compete really until 90+ and 300+ aa.

Unfortunately, the comeptitive aspect is a large reaosn most of us play. HOwever, it doesn't have to be the only reason. Right now I'm "slogging" through low level quests and have a fun time of it. I don't care that I'm poorly geared or low level.

I sometimes play single player games and will customize them to whatever desires I deem fit. I don't compare what I accomplish to other players because I'm not playing with others. I just do it to see the world and battle dark forces and loot treasures. It's all subjective.

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Old 06-02-2012, 05:00 PM   #96
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Katz wrote:

To me, the f2p model being used is more likely to repel people than attract them to the game.

I think that the f2p model works well for new players and low levels. It only breaks when things like the one discussed here, where items are unusable, which is a major problem for returning players and also a problem for players getting to the high levels.

From the suggestions I offered before, the only one addressing the problem of returning players is having different stats for items when used by silver vs. gold. That at least lets players continue to use existing gear, even if it's no longer as effective.

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Old 06-02-2012, 06:20 PM   #97
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7foggynites wrote:

Onorem wrote:

Also... when I say "content" I use it interchangeable with progression.

And here is the problem. Content != progression. I would argue that a vast mojority of players have not seen even half the older content that game has to offer. Funny how they complain about nothing to do in the game, yet unwilling to actually explore beyond the 3 newest zones. Here is an example, how many have done Icy Digs and it's timeline? I am willing to bet less than 10%, and it is one of the coolest storylines as well as probably the best zone of vanilla eq2. How about the raid in Splitpaw adventure pack? Most fun raid up to and including the present content. Epic weapon timeline from EoF? Amazing storyline, cool graphics, and probably less than 10 people game-wide completed it in last 3 months.

If your game goal is to play at the top of the current progression, then F2P model works ONLY if you invest time in planning and researching your progress. Being aware of what upgrades you actually need, utilizing double and triple SC weekends, buying SC cards for plat on non-promotion weekends from trusted source and using numbers during bonus ones. 

If your game goal is just to blow a few hours each day/week just having a good time, then F2P model works great as this is the most content you will even get from any f2p game on the market.

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Old 06-02-2012, 07:00 PM   #98
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 Competitive endgame = sub, that much should be obvious. Wanting to reach the end of a game that you paid for in the form of an expansion? I can see that. If they flagged quest rewards then legendary could be equipped for free with bronze or silver IMO. The quests are part of the paid content IMO and are different than random drops that should require a sub or unlock.

 Don't forget about mastercrafted. There are no direct restrictions on crafting that I know of so you can "earn" a nice set of gear if you're willing to do so. With silver even stimulate the economy a bit.

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