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Old 04-11-2012, 09:01 PM   #61
Roslyn

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[email protected] wrote:

LadyMist, I don't know where you live, nor do I care, but where I am, its extremely hard to get a job right now with the economy. As for working 2 jobs, that isn't possible with the availability requirements my current job has. Trust me, I've been looking for full time jobs. As for actively playing, right now I log in maybe once a week because I am trying to keep up with my family. Forgive me for suggesting something that I think will benefit all silver players.

Then get a new hobby. It'd be like me complaining that I want to go snowboarding but can't afford to rent gear or even pay for gas. Gaming isn't water, you can live without it and SOE doesn't owe you a good time for nothing in return. It may sound harsh, but it's getting old seeing these same types of threads over and over.

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Old 04-12-2012, 10:02 AM   #62
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Geothe wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I'm sorry, how is wanting Silver players to be able to use Legendary armor the same as asking SOE to deck me out in it?

You are asking to be handed one of the benefits of actually subscribing to the game to free.   Thats asking for a hand-out.

If you dont want to have to use unlockers, man up and get a subscription.  Otherwise, live with the drawbacks that come with playing a game for free.

I'm finding your post offensive

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Old 04-12-2012, 10:15 AM   #63
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Geothe wrote:

Kesstryl wrote:

I Non-sub players who are buying expansions and silver upgrades are still making purchases and supporting SOE, and I can't stand how they are being treated here.  If they withheld what money they do spend, SOE would have a lot less income.  A paying customer is a paying customer, and the better you treat your paying customers, the more loyal they will feel and be more likely to pay for more services.  Being miserly with those you think unworthy because they haven't paid what you feel is enough is going to make them more miserly with their wallets.

Legendary unlockers are a lot less than a subscription.  The means exists for silver to equip legendary gear.  Yes, its not free.  But you aren't paying a subscription, and that comes with drawbacks! /gasp!!!!

I dont get what is so hard to comprehend about that!  Don't like being nickle-and-dimed?  Get a gold subscription, otherwise live with the consequenses that come with not paying a subscription.

does it keep your up at night that you're paying a sub and others aren't?

I'm also paying a sub and I find that legendary gear should be free because I'd like people to play with and since chars in below legendary gear aren't alot of fun to group with in heroic zones. right now the message to F2P players is, yes you can play this game for free, but only solo. Not that this game actually is F2P. It's free to log in. There are so many restrictions for F2P players that it's not worth playing. The only way you can play as a F2P player is solo, so those F2P players are worthless for us subscribers because they don't add to the pool of people to play with, and lack of people to play with is the big problem in this game right now.

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Old 04-12-2012, 11:01 AM   #64
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There's really no need for better than mastercrafted while leveling.  It's only at 90 that this becomes an issue, and frankly the level 92 mastercrafted gear currently on test is better than any legendary and a lot of fabled currently in game.  The only thing worse from what I have seen is the mitigation- It has more hp, more pot/cb/stats, etc than EM fabled, but less mitigation.  Wait a week, level to 92, and voila! you get some uber gear you don't have to pay real money for.

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Old 04-12-2012, 03:19 PM   #65
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Few things. I keep seeing people saying that the EQ2 model of F2P is the least restrictive. And it is - in areas. Most other games, however, don't nickle and dime you for each and ever gear upgrade regardless of payment level. Secondly, even when a game does nickle and dime you, they don't immediately strip all of your gear off of you when you go from a paid sub to free. Anything earned while subbed counts as unlocked, which counts as an extra perk to having a sub.

I don't like gear unlockers, period. I never thought that we should have them. However, if we MUST have them, then remove the stupid stripping of gear once our subscription lapses. Make it so only new drops require an unlocker and anything earned during a sub period automatically unlocks for you.

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Old 04-16-2012, 02:56 AM   #66
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They MIGHT/orNOT in FUTURE make Quest Rewards Legendary Equipments into No-Trade Unlocked so that people will be more keen on doing quests that they toil day and night to script for us than pure grinding...

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Old 04-16-2012, 05:40 AM   #67
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When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

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Old 04-16-2012, 08:12 AM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

then your friend was another player that wanted the entire game for free.

the current system allows f2p players to equip any pieces of gear, they just need to spend OmG  500 SC on unlockers.

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Old 04-16-2012, 10:31 AM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

Now, before you read the title and just flame me, hear me out. I played WELL before the F2P conversion, and I like the F2P model SOE is using, however I do have one complaint. Why is it that Silver players can't use Legendary? I'm not asking to be able to use my epic weapon on my 90 wizard. I just want to be able to use my newer characters and wear stuff that drops in DoV. Even quest gear there is Legendary. Gold players pay to play, so it makes sense that they get unrestricted access to content, but I feel like it is wrong to have at least one expansion that drops nothing but legendary, and leaving your bronze and silver players in the dark.

Yes, there are gear unlocks, I understand that, but it doesn't unlock the slot, it unlocks the one item. I became a Silver player when it was $10, I know in EQ1 its $5 to go Silver, and I don't know if it has changed for EQ2 or not, but I don't think it'd be a bad business decision to allow Silver players to use Legendary.

Have two F2P accounts, unlocks are less than the $15/month gold unless u r replaceing a lot of stuff all the time.  Or just man up and sub.

Andyeah I hate to have to 'unlock' a quest item, but $OE is all about the money now.

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Old 04-16-2012, 11:51 AM   #70
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yohann koldheart wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

then your friend was another player that wanted the entire game for free.

the current system allows f2p players to equip any pieces of gear, they just need to spend OmG  500 SC on unlockers.

500SC is £4 in the UK... I don't know about the US.

But £4 per item is a lot of money. In fact, if you looted just 2 legendary items you might as well just tie yourself in with a subscription.

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:02 PM   #71
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[email protected] wrote:

yohann koldheart wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

then your friend was another player that wanted the entire game for free.

the current system allows f2p players to equip any pieces of gear, they just need to spend OmG  500 SC on unlockers.

500SC is £4 in the UK... I don't know about the US.

But £4 per item is a lot of money. In fact, if you looted just 2 legendary items you might as well just tie yourself in with a subscription.

The 500SC is for 5 unlockers, not 1.

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:15 PM   #72
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Mermut wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

yohann koldheart wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

then your friend was another player that wanted the entire game for free.

the current system allows f2p players to equip any pieces of gear, they just need to spend OmG  500 SC on unlockers.

500SC is £4 in the UK... I don't know about the US.

But £4 per item is a lot of money. In fact, if you looted just 2 legendary items you might as well just tie yourself in with a subscription.

The 500SC is for 5 unlockers, not 1.

Ah that's pretty decent actually SMILEY

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:01 PM   #73
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Actually, it's 150SC for 5 unlocks....
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:31 PM   #74
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[email protected] wrote:

yohann koldheart wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

When my friend started playing with me, they had zero incentive to join me in dungeon running, since the loot was legendary or above. So as they continue leveling and getting no gear, my friends were getting geared up pretty well. They ended up just quitting and calling it bad value for money and I can understand where they are coming from.

Seems like if you play for free, you play solo, put up with treasured/MC, and don't even think about touching DoV.

then your friend was another player that wanted the entire game for free.

the current system allows f2p players to equip any pieces of gear, they just need to spend OmG  500 SC on unlockers.

500SC is £4 in the UK... I don't know about the US.

But £4 per item is a lot of money. In fact, if you looted just 2 legendary items you might as well just tie yourself in with a subscription.

its extremly cheap, you can easly play f2p and drop less then you would a sub if you think before you go upgrading gear every time something with minimal stat upgrade drops.

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Old 04-16-2012, 06:13 PM   #75
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I've had friends come back and try F2P, and the restrictions are completely crippling. There is no way to play with them.  I quickly warned everyone else away.  F2P is a scam in eq2; don't even try it. 

I think everyone in this thread is in complete agreement on that topic, that you either subscribe or you don't even think about playing eq2.  They just have different ways of expressing themselves.

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Old 04-16-2012, 06:30 PM   #76
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[email protected] wrote:

I've had friends come back and try F2P, and the restrictions are completely crippling. There is no way to play with them.  I quickly warned everyone else away.  F2P is a scam in eq2; don't even try it. 

I think everyone in this thread is in complete agreement on that topic, that you either subscribe or you don't even think about playing eq2.  They just have different ways of expressing themselves.

If you are playing to raid etc i completely agree.

But those who are playing online Barbe dress up, or just chat, or solo or perhaps light group, you change out gear so infrequently F2P can work.  It doesn't work if you are going to automatically equip any piece that is 0.5% superior to the piece you are wearing.  The plat restriction is huge, and the work arounds are terrible.  It also works if you have multiple accounts, 1 main subbed account for coin can take care of the others.

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Old 04-16-2012, 09:56 PM   #77
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Playing as pay-as-you-go is perfectly viable.

Treasured and Mastercrafted is easily good enough to level up in, and once you hit Velious, then you can either buy the Attunement tokens, or struggle along till you get to 90 - at which point you'll probably replace everything with Ry'gorr or Thurgadin anyway.

Attunement tokens are what make the FTP model work. Yes, I would prefer they went with the Turbine model where you buy a zone then get all the gear from it ... but you run dungeons for fun and AA, as well as gear, and if all else fails, remember you can sell the gear for plat and use that money to adorn the heck out of your Mastercrafted.

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Old 04-16-2012, 11:09 PM   #78
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Tollymore wrote:

Playing as pay-as-you-go is perfectly viable.

Treasured and Mastercrafted is easily good enough to level up in, and once you hit Velious, then you can either buy the Attunement tokens, or struggle along till you get to 90 - at which point you'll probably replace everything with Ry'gorr or Thurgadin anyway.

Attunement tokens are what make the FTP model work. Yes, I would prefer they went with the Turbine model where you buy a zone then get all the gear from it ... but you run dungeons for fun and AA, as well as gear, and if all else fails, remember you can sell the gear for plat and use that money to adorn the heck out of your Mastercrafted.

Pay to Play only with unlimited time trial.

cant sell gear because nothing in this game is tradable its a good idea in any other game though but they botched this game from the get go

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Old 04-17-2012, 11:43 AM   #79
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Playing near the cap can be challenging without spending any dollars. The rest of the gameworld is wide open. As for gear though, I think the issue with legendary goes back to the decision not to raise the level cap when DoV was originally released. Had the cap gone up, there would've been more room for treasured gear. Since it didn't, as you progress into content, each piece of gear needs to improve on what you have already earned, which pushes things into Legendary. Expansions that don't raise the level cap frequently have this type of issue with gear. Before the F2P tiers existed though, the label was a non-issue.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:17 PM   #80
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naladini wrote:

Playing near the cap can be challenging without spending any dollars. The rest of the gameworld is wide open. As for gear though, I think the issue with legendary goes back to the decision not to raise the level cap when DoV was originally released. Had the cap gone up, there would've been more room for treasured gear. Since it didn't, as you progress into content, each piece of gear needs to improve on what you have already earned, which pushes things into Legendary. Expansions that don't raise the level cap frequently have this type of issue with gear. Before the F2P tiers existed though, the label was a non-issue.

From the sounds of this new GU (yay, it's here...) level caps won't be happening as...potently...as before. We're getting 2 levels which equates to massive upgrades for our characters gear and skill wise, and I think there's plans to continue that trend...

The legendary thing in velious though, yeah, is considering the fact that even solo players were (they changed this though...) coming out of SF in treasured quested gear. Ofc, EVERYTHING is being itemized legendary now which can become something of an issue...the stuff I used to quest in Kunark and Odus that was treasured is re-tagged as legendaries since the new itemization.

I can agree with both sides though...you should have to payto unlock since it's not like you're paying a 15$ monthly fee...but at the same time, the unlocks should probably be slot-specific, not piece specific...

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Old 04-17-2012, 08:30 PM   #81
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naladini wrote:

Playing near the cap can be challenging without spending any dollars. The rest of the gameworld is wide open. As for gear though, I think the issue with legendary goes back to the decision not to raise the level cap when DoV was originally released. Had the cap gone up, there would've been more room for treasured gear. Since it didn't, as you progress into content, each piece of gear needs to improve on what you have already earned, which pushes things into Legendary. Expansions that don't raise the level cap frequently have this type of issue with gear. Before the F2P tiers existed though, the label was a non-issue.

Another alternative to money gouging

http://truly-free.aiononline.com/tr...-free/index.php

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Old 04-17-2012, 09:52 PM   #82
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Peogia,

SOE need money to keep open, so they need cash flow. Their model is pay-for-win - when you kill a dragon, you need to sling SOE real cash to equip the gear. Or rent the game through a sub.

Aion's model is to be sooooo grindtastic, that everyone buys XP boost pots, and its a model.

I find it utterly and absolutely possible to play as a pay-as-you-go person, including doing high-end trade, buying and selling loot rights and so on (you just use guildies to hold the money, or use high-value commodities like reactants or adorning mats). Its what I do, in fact.

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Old 05-25-2012, 06:08 PM   #83
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yohann koldheart wrote:

unlockers are dirt cheap, buy them. like 500 SC for a pack of 5 if i remember.

you dont pay a sub so you should pay to equip legndary +  gear.

and a 1 time account wide charge as cheap as silver , is hardly worth mentioning .

Kind of true.

I'm hesitant right now as a new player. I am silver. I bought the warden class. I'm taking my time in low level content so I don't have to spend wild amounts of money yet, plus I'm very poor. I am trying to learn how this unlocking systemj works so that I can plan when to fully sub or when to buy unlockers, depending on what I want.

Full sub get these things over silver (off top of mind):

1) Access to all classes

2) Access to legenedary/fabled

3) No coin restriction

4) No limit on max spell tier

5) 500 SC per month (if recurring)

6) Can change AA slider higher/lower than 50

7) ...

So if I buy unlockers for items, how much will it be over a month with DoV?

1 item unlocker pack is 150 SC - $1.50.

If I buy some this weekend (for a later time) then they're 75 SC each.

So $15 will buy 50 item unlocks. Am I likely to have to unlock 50 times in a month? I doubt it unless I am lower level (and thus getting more drops due to how the game works at lower levels). If I am spending 1500 SC per month then I may as well fully sub. So I'll have to pay attention carefully. My first month will mostly be treasured items, I anticipate. But as I get high level and start to want group-gear, I'll increasingly want unlockers. And then when I go to DOV I'll be required to have them. All a lot to consider.

This month I've spent $12.50 (warden + silver). Next month, no idea. But I'm doing all this with a lot less than a gold subscriber. My choices have to be a lot more measured - so there's more research.

Right now I'm limiting the foreseeable future to $20 for DOV and $7.50 for unlocks. Or $40.

If this were a typical sub-based game, that's about 2 months if DOV is the base-game cost.

I think it's roughly fair since I don't have access to everything. On the other hand, am I really costing Sony less than somebody else since I'm still using their network resources on a equal level? I mean, the cost of each player is their use of the network, right? The server has to send data to my client and that requires $$$. How much per month? Either way, I have to make compromises to play on the reduced income I have. That weighs into it. I'm not using item unlockers for freee.. I'm not changing the aa slider for free... i'm not storing away coin for free... I'm not using classes for free... etc.

Bottom line, is it solvent if I'm paying below $15 per month?

I think it's if you're playing older content. But newer content? Doubt it. The value of content/software goes down with time so the costs of playing per month should go down if that's what you're playing/using. I mean, once a company has payed off a particular piece of software, any additonal money they make is pure profit. But for new content, they start out in debt and must pay it off before it's pure profit. The amount they get paid has to be high enough to exceed the interest on their loan and also to pay it off in a timely way. It has to be fast enough to ensure that the loan will get payed off w/ confidence.

So really.. if a new player is playing in old content, they're not costing the company a huge amount. But I'd really like to see how much the network costs are for the average player compared to the software costs.

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Old 05-26-2012, 08:13 PM   #84
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Well, its hard to find a good place to look to compare the plans, but at one point if you bought a years subscription it reduced the monthly cost to $11.99.  Plus you get some in game items and 500 station cash per month if its a reoccurring subscription.  So if that is still how it works it effectively gets the cost down to $6.99 a month.   (Unless its changed or I misunderstood how it works.)

Of course that would require you paying for a year up front.  So less expensive in the long run but not in the short run.

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Old 06-02-2012, 08:48 AM   #85
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Figured I'll add my two cents.

First, it would be interesting to know how much money SOE is making off unlockers. If it's a significant sum, then it's a good reason for them to leave the situation as is. (A problem I see with many arguments on the net is that people just assume something is true, and then flame people who think it's not.)

As a silver player, I would of course love to get access to more gear, but I don't think it's necessary to open everything. The thing is, I find it more annoying that I get gear I can't use than that I don't get access to powerful gear.

There are several solutions to this. Here are a few:

  • Give / drop different gear to gold and silver. Still leave some legendary gear for silver, but have more drops and quest rewards be mastercrafted instead of legendary.
  • Have items give different bonuses to silver and gold. This way silver gets to use the items, but not get the full bonuses. It would be good to always show the gold bonuses, to tease the silver player into unlocking the gear. Again it's possible that some items will still be restricted.
  • Allow legendary for appearance only for silver. That will give it some use but nothing practical.
  • Allow reforging legendary to mastercrafted. This will force silver players to buy AoD, but I think silver players don't usually mind one time fees as opposed to ongoing ones. It will mean more work for silver to use these items but will also make the game more interesting.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:29 AM   #86
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Well, here is my opinion on the implementation of f2p.

What we want is a well populated game.  Lots and lots and lots of people playing.   The game needs to appear to be thriving.

One way to acheive that goal that many games have resorted to is conversion to free to play.

So, you set up a model that encourages lots and lots of people to play.  Some of the people are people you want to lure back who played the game in the past.  In order for that to succeed, people need to not log in and go !$%#@%^$%$^%&*^%&*%^*   and then leave.  

Everyone who used to play that I tried to talk into coming back, logged in, their armor popped off.  They said, !$#@%#%^%$&^ I'm nekkid!!!!  And then said, fugitaboutit and left.

We can go back and forth about oh but all you have to do is this and that and then this and that and you can work around it and just go ahead and subscribe and buy triple cash and then subscribe at half off weekend and and and.....

The thing is, none of that makes lots and lots and lots of people populate the game so that it appears to be thriving.  If people find something too restrictive and convoluted they will go to another free to play game that is implemented better.

People don't want to feel like things are being taken away from them...that is Psychology 101.  So you have taken away the ability to have much money, storage space, broker usage, I'm not sure what all because I won't play f2p on this game.  I will do what a lot of people do, either subscribe or not play at all.  

There are a lot of games out there.  A lot of them have f2p options.   There is competition.   This game needs more people playing it.   Please rethink your f2p model because I want this game to thrive.   

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Old 06-02-2012, 10:40 AM   #87
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Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and slap you with a news flash! 

Free-To-Play people in general are not what we call "loyal" customers.  They play around with their glittery $20 pony for about a week then move on to something else novel.  They're simply novelty seekers. 

The original player base wasn't interested in having these people around in the first place, and we're certainly still not interested in their presence.  What the game needs are features and content that already exists....to operate.

What we currently have is a broken menagerie of features and content that's right at disgusting.  Make the game work and you'll keep current customers who *gasp* might draw in other players for you.  No one wants to buy a broken product.

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Old 06-02-2012, 11:48 AM   #88
LordPazuzu

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LadyMist wrote:

Because Legendary is Very nice gear, only better is raid gear. This is just one of the Few restrictions a free to play silver person has. My high toon wears all egendary and I am gold. Fabled isnt a option for me as I dont have time to raid.

You just have to deal with what the free to play model offers wich is Very generous, more generous than all the ftp games I have tried out

This hasn't been true for some time now.  The actually quality of items flagged as Legendary or Fabled varies greatly, even throughout the same expansion.  The tag Legendary means absolutely nothing now.

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Old 06-02-2012, 01:07 PM   #89
Katz

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Skylan wrote:

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and slap you with a news flash! 

Free-To-Play people in general are not what we call "loyal" customers.  They play around with their glittery $20 pony for about a week then move on to something else novel.  They're simply novelty seekers. 

The original player base wasn't interested in having these people around in the first place, and we're certainly still not interested in their presence.  What the game needs are features and content that already exists....to operate.

What we currently have is a broken menagerie of features and content that's right at disgusting.  Make the game work and you'll keep current customers who *gasp* might draw in other players for you.  No one wants to buy a broken product.

Yeah, a lot of things are broken.   I suppose that I feel that the f2p implementation, like a lot of other things added, was poorly thought out. 

However, what I would like to see is that f2p attracts a lot of people, so that there is a healthy population in the early areas.  Many won't stick around, subscribe, etc.  But, if the f2p isn't off putting and if the developers do like you say and fix the broken product so that the game doesn't look broken and abandoned then some people will stay and be loyal.   

To me, the f2p model being used is more likely to repel people than attract them to the game.

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Old 06-02-2012, 02:51 PM   #90
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I made a basic post about mudflation here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=516580#5756925

Basically, here's what happens.

With each new expansion and content addition, the game grows bigger and the amount of things you need to do to reach maximum level/aa/gear/spells/etc increases. So, for example, the level cap increases from 50 to 60 to 65 to 75 to 80 and so on. The aa's go from 100 to 150 to 170 to 200 to 250. If the game did not "streamline" the experience then it would take increasingly longer for a new player to reach maximum potential. This would create a circumstance where the oldest players have attained a level of progression that new players will likely never reach. So what happens is a divide forms between the "elite" veterans and the "whiner" new players. Companies resolve this by shortening the progression time to a specified value and then keeping it there so that new players have a chance to reach the potential maximum abilities of their character. What this does is allows them to level up faster and get their other things (aa's/gear/etc) faster as well. They can even skip content altogether because it's more efficient to do it that way in many cases.

If mudflation didn't happen then if you're playing an old(er) game you would likely NEVER reach maximum potential for your character. You would always be battling the "elites" and grinding an uphill treadmill with a goal in mind that you can't reach.

Again, this happens because content (read: progression) is constantly being added. Imagine that the content in a game is like a book. Now imagine that the first people who started reading had to read 600 pages and in each ensuing addition 100 pages were added. Lets say that 10 editions later there're 1600 pages. For any newcomer to this book, 1600 pages will seem daunting!!!! They may not even pick up the book simply because they may never finish it. Now this situation is different from a MMORPG because any newcomer to this book will want to compete with the first readers of this book. But in order to do that they have to read through 1600 pages and in all that time the first readers of the book will themselves be reading new(er) editions. So it will be an uphill battle for them to be at a competitive stage.

Lets also say that the average player only stays with a game for 1 year of total time. So any game that requires more than 1 year of investment will become unviable for the average player if he/she desires to compete with the top players.

And there're other factors ... including the rate of new incoming players. This number goes down for most online games because they cannot exceed the rate they accomplished in the first month or so of release. So the new players not only have to slog through more and more content but they have to do it alone, unless a game mechanic can be created to solve this issue. Thus, it just becomes unlikely that players will accept this. So what happens is the game "streamlines" so they don't have to slog through X miles of desolation.

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