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Old 03-18-2010, 12:05 PM   #31
Harbringer Doom

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Rothgar wrote:

Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP...

Uh, I'll bet you a shiny copper piece that it is... regardless of how you wish people would look at it.

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Old 03-18-2010, 02:32 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Well you are messing up our Open pvp experience.

Everytime we go to a BG it turns our Annon and Roleplay tags off, so guess what? When you zone back home it keeps those tags off, so now in open world pvp they can planly see your class type, even thoug for the past few years you may have had that hidden. Unless after every BG you turn them back on = lame.

That sucks.

Yes, we have a bug on it and it will be fixed.

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Old 03-18-2010, 06:36 PM   #33
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First off, I never really understood why /role and /anon even work on pvp servers against opposing teams. With npc's, you can generally tell their class by their name (or their single buff). When it comes to pvp, a player's name means nothing about their class. You can easily have somebody named "Deathmaker" and find that they're a paladin.

Second, on a pvp server, you learn who people are anyway, and discover their strengths and weaknesses. In battlegrounds, you're encountering people of all classes from all servers, so you won't know at a glance that Servername.Playername is, say, a Templar, let alone that they're a priest class at all. The symbols next to their names let you know the bare minimum about who your opponent is in the fast-paced battleground situations. In open world pvp, you may want to consider the situation before attacking. In a battleground, your main objective is exclusively to defeat your opponents before they can defeat you, so you don't have as much time to decide on your actions. Additionally, on a pvp server, you're much more likely to encounter people who are running around solo, so you can actually tell what class they are by their buffs more easily, because they won't have dozens of others' group buffs mixed in.

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Old 03-18-2010, 06:44 PM   #34
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Haliken wrote:

First off, I never really understood why /role and /anon even work on pvp servers against opposing teams. With npc's, you can generally tell their class by their name (or their single buff). When it comes to pvp, a player's name means nothing about their class. You can easily have somebody named "Deathmaker" and find that they're a paladin.

Second, on a pvp server, you learn who people are anyway, and discover their strengths and weaknesses. In battlegrounds, you're encountering people of all classes from all servers, so you won't know at a glance that Servername.Playername is, say, a Templar, let alone that they're a priest class at all. The symbols next to their names let you know the bare minimum about who your opponent is in the fast-paced battleground situations. In open world pvp, you may want to consider the situation before attacking. In a battleground, your main objective is exclusively to defeat your opponents before they can defeat you, so you don't have as much time to decide on your actions. Additionally, on a pvp server, you're much more likely to encounter people who are running around solo, so you can actually tell what class they are by their buffs more easily, because they won't have dozens of others' group buffs mixed in.

You can identify a person by buffs alone in 1 -3 seconds depending on the person

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Old 03-18-2010, 08:11 PM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP...

Uh, I'll bet you a shiny copper piece that it is... regardless of how you wish people would look at it.

Ill bet all my plat and say that eq2 does not even have a hardcore pvp system.

If you know how to use a banker then you will lose nothing in eq2 pvp and gain an entire set of gear, granted the more you win the faster you get that gear.

But you could be the worst player on the entire server of Nagafen, but if that guy spent time pvping he would have an entire set of pvp gear just like the very best player on Nagafen.

Im not trying to say that you suck at eq2 or that you are not hardcore, Im saying that there is no hardcore pvp in this game and that you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

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Old 03-18-2010, 11:43 PM   #36
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I like having class icons, so that when I'm down to 10% health I can quickly find a priest on my team, then run over and start jumping and waving in front of him, then after a few minutes when I'm still not healed I can start cursing and whining about how completely worthless our healers are. Without the class icons I might never find those useless healers!

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Old 03-19-2010, 03:31 PM   #37
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Irony aside, if you cannot find the healer on your own team... you have larger issues of concern.

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Old 03-19-2010, 03:56 PM   #38
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I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

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Old 03-19-2010, 04:31 PM   #39
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[email protected] wrote:

I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

wow really? why does it always have to be about some type of advantage? You bluebies think of just about anything to cry advantage about dont you?

Its a carebear mechanic, im sure they will keep it, we never needed it before and most of us dont see why its needed now.

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Old 03-19-2010, 04:47 PM   #40
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

wow really? why does it always have to be about some type of advantage? You bluebies think of just about anything to cry advantage about dont you?

Its a carebear mechanic, im sure they will keep it, we never needed it before and most of us dont see why its needed now.

Heh it's funny I still look straight to their buffs before I even notice the icon or anything like that. I would like the option to turn them off on my own screen though. It is just more mess on my screen I don't need.

I don't care if they can see what archtype I am at a glance, but please let me turn it off in my own settings so I don't have to see them all on myside. It is unneeded clutter if you ask me.

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Old 03-19-2010, 05:00 PM   #41
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Ahlana wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

wow really? why does it always have to be about some type of advantage? You bluebies think of just about anything to cry advantage about dont you?

Its a carebear mechanic, im sure they will keep it, we never needed it before and most of us dont see why its needed now.

Heh it's funny I still look straight to their buffs before I even notice the icon or anything like that. I would like the option to turn them off on my own screen though. It is just more mess on my screen I don't need.

I don't care if they can see what archtype I am at a glance, but please let me turn it off in my own settings so I don't have to see them all on myside. It is unneeded clutter if you ask me.

Check your options, it's already there!  SMILEY

In fact you can set the option to display your team, their team, both teams, or no one.

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Old 03-19-2010, 05:41 PM   #42
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Oh Options! I'll have to look into those.

As for the person that said if I have trouble identify people on my team? I have to hover over the name or select them a manual physical way of checking. The icons are a visual way of checking. It's quicker and easier in PUGs.

I can understand folks not wanting them to clutter up their screens. It's nice to be able to turn them off. Now if only it was stated this way ahead of time. Oh well, thank you for giving us the option.

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Old 03-19-2010, 05:46 PM   #43
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Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Boy you guys speak out of both sides of your mouth.  Werent you the guy that said in another post not that long ago that soe wanted the open world and bg rulesets to be the same for simplicity's sake?  Also if its 2 different play styles then why force on us to use one set of gear that is usable in both open world and the bgs?  Why go to toughness?  The bg gear with toughness on it is clearly one of the worst things done to open world in a long time.  All it does is divide the community and make pve irrelevant to open world, which of course is a bad idea since open world requires people engaged in pve for their to be open world pvp.  Really it is unfair to say that the bgs are a dumbed down form of open world since what soe did was bastardize the open world game to create the bgs.

As for your bgs, I know you dont presently have the intention of removing archtypes from the names.  That doesnt mean you shouldnt do so.  Soe has stripped from the bgs almost every factor out of the game that made pvp interesting and variable.   Now as a result we got a rock paper scissor game on a group scale.  To improve this situation, soe should be adding things that create variety and complexity so that the game is not always determined by class and group composition.  Removing archtype tags would be a decent step towards accomplishing that goal.  It would make the game a little bit more complex, and perhaps a little bit more interesting and varied.  But of course if you like having designed a game where you can tell who is going to win the moment you log on, well, then keep it the same.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:22 PM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Boy you guys speak out of both sides of your mouth.  If its 2 different play styles then why force on us to use one set of gear that is usable in both open world and the bgs?  Why go to toughness?  The bg gear with toughness on it is clearly one of the worst things done to open world in a long time.  All it does is divide the community and make pve irrelevant to open world, which of course is a bad idea since open world requires people engaged in pve for their to be open world pvp.

As for your bgs, I know you dont presently have the intention of removing archtypes from the names.  That doesnt mean you shouldnt do so.  The bgs are clearly dumb-down forms of pvp where soe has stripped almost every factor out of the game that made pvp interesting and variable.   Now as a result we got a rock paper scissor game on a group scale.  To improve this situation, soe should be adding things that create variety and complexity so that the game is not always determined by class and group composition.  Removing archtype tags would be a decent step towards accomplishing that goal.  It would make the game a little bit more complex, and perhaps a little bit more interesting and varied.  But of course if you like having designed a game where you can tell who is going to win the moment you log on, well, then keep it the same.

I don't see why you have an issue with this.  If you don't need the icon, great!  But for people that are new to the BG world, it's a nice little feature.  It doesn't change the gameplay hardly at all.  If you're so superior and can recognize classes from their buffs, then surely you have some type of tactics when some n00b targets you based solely on your icon.  Have your groupmates burn them down or ask your tanks to taunt.  What's the problem here?  I find myself using it less these days.  But I'm not whining that it should be removed either.

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Old 03-19-2010, 06:34 PM   #45
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Rothgar wrote:

Ahlana wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

wow really? why does it always have to be about some type of advantage? You bluebies think of just about anything to cry advantage about dont you?

Its a carebear mechanic, im sure they will keep it, we never needed it before and most of us dont see why its needed now.

Heh it's funny I still look straight to their buffs before I even notice the icon or anything like that. I would like the option to turn them off on my own screen though. It is just more mess on my screen I don't need.

I don't care if they can see what archtype I am at a glance, but please let me turn it off in my own settings so I don't have to see them all on myside. It is unneeded clutter if you ask me.

Check your options, it's already there! 

In fact you can set the option to display your team, their team, both teams, or no one.

Happy Days!

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Old 03-19-2010, 09:03 PM   #46
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why not remove the display of name, class and buffs, so you just see

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Old 03-19-2010, 09:08 PM   #47
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Grumble69 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Boy you guys speak out of both sides of your mouth.  If its 2 different play styles then why force on us to use one set of gear that is usable in both open world and the bgs?  Why go to toughness?  The bg gear with toughness on it is clearly one of the worst things done to open world in a long time.  All it does is divide the community and make pve irrelevant to open world, which of course is a bad idea since open world requires people engaged in pve for their to be open world pvp.

As for your bgs, I know you dont presently have the intention of removing archtypes from the names.  That doesnt mean you shouldnt do so.  The bgs are clearly dumb-down forms of pvp where soe has stripped almost every factor out of the game that made pvp interesting and variable.   Now as a result we got a rock paper scissor game on a group scale.  To improve this situation, soe should be adding things that create variety and complexity so that the game is not always determined by class and group composition.  Removing archtype tags would be a decent step towards accomplishing that goal.  It would make the game a little bit more complex, and perhaps a little bit more interesting and varied.  But of course if you like having designed a game where you can tell who is going to win the moment you log on, well, then keep it the same.

I don't see why you have an issue with this.  If you don't need the icon, great!  But for people that are new to the BG world, it's a nice little feature.  It doesn't change the gameplay hardly at all.  If you're so superior and can recognize classes from their buffs, then surely you have some type of tactics when some n00b targets you based solely on your icon.  Have your groupmates burn them down or ask your tanks to taunt.  What's the problem here?  I find myself using it less these days.  But I'm not whining that it should be removed either.

the reason why i have a problem with it, is because the bgs have been so scrubbed of variety and variation that the games are over the moment you log in.  To folk who are not pvp experienced it may not be apparent, but to those who have been playing awhile its clear that the only variables that matter in the bgs are class and grp composition.  The little icons are just a small part of the problem.  Without the icons there would be a little more variation and in the game.  Skill would be a little bit more important.  Certainly, anything would be better then the rock paper scissor thing we got going now.

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Old 03-20-2010, 01:21 AM   #48
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Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Rothgar, I'll ask you to reconsider..

The subject of this thread has nothing to do with PvP at all, I've never played it in this game and could care less about it.  This is specific to EQ2's battleground experience.  Battlegrounds are very different than PvP as you are well aware.

I think what you are stating is that removing the icons will make battlegrounds too much like PvP and the PvE crowd will struggle, in my opinion this is quite the opposite of what will happen.  Let me explain...

Battlegrounds are different than PvP in that in many cases, especially at the beginning, the size of the fights on average are going to be more compact.. think 24 vs 24.. all start at once, Braveheart style.  Both sides rush in.. using the PvP buff identification method, a player will be able to identify classes through buffs but not all at once, they have to cycle through, find there target etc... but, with your current style of having the icon above there head they can instantly spot the type of targets they want... assist on it and kill it instantly.  This is not what you want your PvE players to experience or really any player for that matter.

Any time groups come together in a BG you are going to have this problem.  Healers in general will be the obvious first target.. if the people playing the healers aren't in a tight group.. well let's just say the death gets real old, real fast.  What you are going to find is that healers will stop playing in the BGs altogether.. and I don't think you want that situation in the big scheme of things.

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.  SMILEY  You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

There are some great ideas on this thread though talking towards hiding their names, not showing names/classes on the scoreboard until the end etc.  These are great ideas that will make the experience more enjoyable for everybody who plays. 

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Old 03-20-2010, 03:50 AM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:

Grumble69 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Boy you guys speak out of both sides of your mouth.  If its 2 different play styles then why force on us to use one set of gear that is usable in both open world and the bgs?  Why go to toughness?  The bg gear with toughness on it is clearly one of the worst things done to open world in a long time.  All it does is divide the community and make pve irrelevant to open world, which of course is a bad idea since open world requires people engaged in pve for their to be open world pvp.

As for your bgs, I know you dont presently have the intention of removing archtypes from the names.  That doesnt mean you shouldnt do so.  The bgs are clearly dumb-down forms of pvp where soe has stripped almost every factor out of the game that made pvp interesting and variable.   Now as a result we got a rock paper scissor game on a group scale.  To improve this situation, soe should be adding things that create variety and complexity so that the game is not always determined by class and group composition.  Removing archtype tags would be a decent step towards accomplishing that goal.  It would make the game a little bit more complex, and perhaps a little bit more interesting and varied.  But of course if you like having designed a game where you can tell who is going to win the moment you log on, well, then keep it the same.

I don't see why you have an issue with this.  If you don't need the icon, great!  But for people that are new to the BG world, it's a nice little feature.  It doesn't change the gameplay hardly at all.  If you're so superior and can recognize classes from their buffs, then surely you have some type of tactics when some n00b targets you based solely on your icon.  Have your groupmates burn them down or ask your tanks to taunt.  What's the problem here?  I find myself using it less these days.  But I'm not whining that it should be removed either.

the reason why i have a problem with it, is because the bgs have been so scrubbed of variety and variation that the games are over the moment you log in.  To folk who are not pvp experienced it may not be apparent, but to those who have been playing awhile its clear that the only variables that matter in the bgs are class and grp composition.  The little icons are just a small part of the problem.  Without the icons there would be a little more variation and in the game.  Skill would be a little bit more important.  Certainly, anything would be better then the rock paper scissor thing we got going now.

Translation:  You hate it when a group of n00bs actually win because they discovered an important lesson of focusing on the healer first.   Mmmmmm, virgin n00bs.  ...it what's for breakfast!  I'm beginning to think this is more about pride than anything else.

What will happen when they move to the next level and discover alt-s during the prematch tick down and macro(/target server.healersname)?  Are we going to cry more?

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Old 03-20-2010, 11:01 AM   #50
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There are other visual indicators as to which class you're facing.  There's the obvious ones, such as the ones with pets and such.  You can usually tell a tank as they typically charge right in to face you toe-to-toe, have a large amount of hp, and will sometimes force you to change targets.  Healers are a little more careful about going right in, though there are melee types.  The easiest way I've noticed them is through their heals... they tend to share the same animations.  Scouts more often than not are the ones running around duel-wielding weapons and coming at you from behind.  There are tanks that duel wield, but those guys usually come in at the front rather than the back.  Casters are usually the ones hanging back starting to cast long spells. 

It get's much harder to tell especially in 24 man groups, but if you aren't buff savvy, you can usually still tell by some of these signs once the fight commences, as long as you calm down and take a moment to survey the scene.  Personally I like the indicators, because it makes things easier for me to decide what player to start attacking., especially when I've got somewhere around 30 names on my screen duking it out.  But if they did decide to remove them, learning to distinguish by sight can still help and while not necessarily as reliable as buffs, it at least gives you a quick general idea of what you're facing.

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Old 03-20-2010, 03:13 PM   #51
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Grumble69 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Grumble69 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

We don't have any plans to remove the archetype indicators.

Open PvP and Battlegrounds are two different types of gameplay styles.  Things that work well in one setting won't always be the best for the other setting.

If players want the full open-world PvP experience, we still encourage them to roll characters on those servers.  Battlegrounds are not dumbed-down PvP, it should be looked at as a different experience.  If you're a hardcore PvP'er, you might not like them and thats ok.  But as it is now, Battlegrounds are very popular to both PvP and PvE players.  If we make them too much like one style or the other, they might not be as attractive to the other side of the population.

Boy you guys speak out of both sides of your mouth.  If its 2 different play styles then why force on us to use one set of gear that is usable in both open world and the bgs?  Why go to toughness?  The bg gear with toughness on it is clearly one of the worst things done to open world in a long time.  All it does is divide the community and make pve irrelevant to open world, which of course is a bad idea since open world requires people engaged in pve for their to be open world pvp.

As for your bgs, I know you dont presently have the intention of removing archtypes from the names.  That doesnt mean you shouldnt do so.  The bgs are clearly dumb-down forms of pvp where soe has stripped almost every factor out of the game that made pvp interesting and variable.   Now as a result we got a rock paper scissor game on a group scale.  To improve this situation, soe should be adding things that create variety and complexity so that the game is not always determined by class and group composition.  Removing archtype tags would be a decent step towards accomplishing that goal.  It would make the game a little bit more complex, and perhaps a little bit more interesting and varied.  But of course if you like having designed a game where you can tell who is going to win the moment you log on, well, then keep it the same.

I don't see why you have an issue with this.  If you don't need the icon, great!  But for people that are new to the BG world, it's a nice little feature.  It doesn't change the gameplay hardly at all.  If you're so superior and can recognize classes from their buffs, then surely you have some type of tactics when some n00b targets you based solely on your icon.  Have your groupmates burn them down or ask your tanks to taunt.  What's the problem here?  I find myself using it less these days.  But I'm not whining that it should be removed either.

the reason why i have a problem with it, is because the bgs have been so scrubbed of variety and variation that the games are over the moment you log in.  To folk who are not pvp experienced it may not be apparent, but to those who have been playing awhile its clear that the only variables that matter in the bgs are class and grp composition.  The little icons are just a small part of the problem.  Without the icons there would be a little more variation and in the game.  Skill would be a little bit more important.  Certainly, anything would be better then the rock paper scissor thing we got going now.

Translation:  You hate it when a group of n00bs actually win because they discovered an important lesson of focusing on the healer first.   Mmmmmm, virgin n00bs.  ...it what's for breakfast!  I'm beginning to think this is more about pride than anything else.

What will happen when they move to the next level and discover alt-s during the prematch tick down and macro(/target server.healersname)?  Are we going to cry more?

not even close.  what I want is to break the dynamic that makes class the most important factor in the game.  I would like to have skill have some importance herein.  the removal of the icons would be a step (albeit a small step) on to the path away rock paper scissor to a more skill based game.

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Old 03-21-2010, 12:27 AM   #52
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.    You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

Actually this is incorrect.  I played a lot of Warhammer scenarios and the classes are very easily identifiable by their appearance.  You'll notice that there is very little variation in armor in Warhammer and that's because they want each class to be identifiable easily.  In EQ2 we have such a wide variety of armor, plus with appearance gear there's no way to tell what class someone is by appearance, you have to use the buff window.  Sure, a few people might prefer to not have the icons, but more than a few people like them, so there's no overwhelming reason to get rid of them at this point.

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Old 03-21-2010, 12:41 AM   #53
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.    You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

Actually this is incorrect.  I played a lot of Warhammer scenarios and the classes are very easily identifiable by their appearance.  You'll notice that there is very little variation in armor in Warhammer and that's because they want each class to be identifiable easily.  In EQ2 we have such a wide variety of armor, plus with appearance gear there's no way to tell what class someone is by appearance, you have to use the buff window.  Sure, a few people might prefer to not have the icons, but more than a few people like them, so there's no overwhelming reason to get rid of them at this point.

Honestly at this point in the game it doesn't make a difference. I've met level 80 people pvping that didn't know how to tell what class was what by the buffs, so it's not just helping pve'rs but some pvp'ers too.

Also, for the healing classes there's a bit of a variation on trying to kill them. If you don't stunlock a warden or cleric then you're probably not going to kill them. You'd still need to read their buffs to know which class the healer is. Also, the same goes for any class. I still read the buffs on mages so I know if my group is about to get 2 shot or not.

It's not a gamebreaker, you still need to read buffs, but it definitely gives basic skills to everyone, and that helps pros and newbs.

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Old 03-21-2010, 01:41 AM   #54
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.    You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

Actually this is incorrect.  I played a lot of Warhammer scenarios and the classes are very easily identifiable by their appearance.  You'll notice that there is very little variation in armor in Warhammer and that's because they want each class to be identifiable easily.  In EQ2 we have such a wide variety of armor, plus with appearance gear there's no way to tell what class someone is by appearance, you have to use the buff window.  Sure, a few people might prefer to not have the icons, but more than a few people like them, so there's no overwhelming reason to get rid of them at this point.

You have missed the point I was trying to make.  Yes, in Warhammer and other games you can 'easily' identify what class they are, but what you cannot do is INSTANTLY identify what they are.  If you have 12 people coming at you, you have to visually look at each one to determine what they are.  With your icon system, you don't even need to look at the players.. you just look for the green in the sea of other and bam, you have your target.  That's the problem.

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Old 03-21-2010, 12:41 PM   #55
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.    You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

Actually this is incorrect.  I played a lot of Warhammer scenarios and the classes are very easily identifiable by their appearance.  You'll notice that there is very little variation in armor in Warhammer and that's because they want each class to be identifiable easily.  In EQ2 we have such a wide variety of armor, plus with appearance gear there's no way to tell what class someone is by appearance, you have to use the buff window.  Sure, a few people might prefer to not have the icons, but more than a few people like them, so there's no overwhelming reason to get rid of them at this point.

You have missed the point I was trying to make.  Yes, in Warhammer and other games you can 'easily' identify what class they are, but what you cannot do is INSTANTLY identify what they are.  If you have 12 people coming at you, you have to visually look at each one to determine what they are.  With your icon system, you don't even need to look at the players.. you just look for the green in the sea of other and bam, you have your target.  That's the problem.

If you couldn't instantly tell what archetype a player was in WAR, you sucked at the game. Period.

'Gee, that high elf has a giant cat with him. I wonder what class type he could be?'

'Gee, that orc is dual-wielding axes, I wonder what class he is?'

etc.

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Old 03-22-2010, 08:31 AM   #56
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Kel wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

If you couldn't instantly tell what archetype a player was in WAR, you sucked at the game. Period.

'Gee, that high elf has a giant cat with him. I wonder what class type he could be?'

'Gee, that orc is dual-wielding axes, I wonder what class he is?'

etc.

Have to agree with this. Each of the classes were so unique in appearance and movement in WAR that they may as well have had the icons over their heads, it would make no difference at all.

Even the same races were obvious. If you couldn't spot a High Elf Archmage from a Swordmaster then there was never any hope for you anyway.

EQ2 is different in that you can masquerade as any other class to an extent.

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Old 03-22-2010, 12:55 PM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I dont think this is an issue AT ALL.

In Most cases, being a conjuror; it doesn't matter what I have for a tag showing...  You're going to know what class I am.  IMO, if you're complaining about this; you're just a big baby who can't stand not having that extra edge.  Like some of you are saying, it's EASY to realize a class trough their buffs...  So why the tears?  Do you need the advantage until people from blue servers learn those buffs?

wow really? why does it always have to be about some type of advantage? You bluebies think of just about anything to cry advantage about dont you?

Its a carebear mechanic, im sure they will keep it, we never needed it before and most of us dont see why its needed now.

I don't play on a 'bluebie' server...  I just don't cry if; as a pvp player, I don't have an advantage over the rest.

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Old 03-22-2010, 01:37 PM   #58
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Rothgar wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Another thing to consider here is that we aren't inventing the wheel here when it comes to BGs, you should look at how some other games implement it to get some ideas.. specifically DAOC, Warhammer.  There is no instant class identification for the exact reason I described.. nobody will play your game if you get instantly killed every time you poke your head out.    You can identify a class rather easily.. but not instantly.. that's the big thing here.

Actually this is incorrect.  I played a lot of Warhammer scenarios and the classes are very easily identifiable by their appearance.  You'll notice that there is very little variation in armor in Warhammer and that's because they want each class to be identifiable easily.  In EQ2 we have such a wide variety of armor, plus with appearance gear there's no way to tell what class someone is by appearance, you have to use the buff window.  Sure, a few people might prefer to not have the icons, but more than a few people like them, so there's no overwhelming reason to get rid of them at this point.

When you say that "more than a few people like them," how do you actually know this?  What survey data are you refering to, or is this more like a shoot from the hip gut feeling?  Even assuming that what your saying is accurate, where do you see people going from here as they lose their newbeeness?   Vets dont need the icons and it actually tends to foster a one dimensional, skill-less sort of game: see the healer icon everybody attack.   A game needs to be able to grow with its players, here there is no room for anything other then mash buttons in klack, camp the flag in gank and run around in circles in the last one.  While in the inital launch of the game maybe it makes sense for soe to baby its players until they get their footing, soe needs to add variety and challenge for the bgs to be successful in the long rum.  Vets shouldnt be treated like newbees, and the game shouldnt reduce everybody to playing at a level designed for newbees.

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Old 03-22-2010, 04:58 PM   #59
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Why do we have icons above our heads that tells everybody what class you are?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  As a healer, it makes you basically a kill on sight target which can be very frustrating.  Part of the fun of BGs should be class identification.. what are you fighting, how do you fight it etc.. it shouldn't be... "Oh, there is a green icon, kill it before the red icon!"

Come on, take that crap out.  We aren't a bunch of WoW kids here, make it interesting.

I am gonna make this simple. You are a healer. You are gonna be the target. You need to adept. Here is the very simple solution to all you problems. Get a tank. Find one at all cost that knows what his taunts do for you. Heal this tank. Problem solved.

There are many tanks in bg's not being healed. They are less verbal than I am for sure but if you throw them an heal during combat and they realize a healer is actualy healing them they in most not all cases will taunt. You are no longer the target of the enemy. If you die then find another tank to follow. Find one who will work with you as a tandem. Then you and the tank look for a little dps to roll with you and you will be amazed at the increase in your survivability. I know many healers in bgs 90 already look for me Sevantal Bazaar and will heal me to no end because they know I plan on keeping them alive with my taunts to the best of my ability.

If you are dps specd as a healer in bg then you are gonna die alot. Sucks to be a healer and have to heal I know. Sucks for me to be a tank who taunts at times and gets wiped because I told the enemy to look at me and hit me and dont get a single heal.

I had to edit due to the usual I had more to say.

The game of BG is far removed from PVP servers. The game of chess is played in knowing what you are up against and making a sound decision as to rather you engage or flee. The icons make this much more interesting as you dont just evaluate a number of enemies but also what support they are giveing eachother as a whole. Without the icons this would not be possible as you would have mages wearing the cloth that looks like plate etc. disguises. This is not a pvp open platform. This is bg's and knowing classes on the approach wont be changed I'm sure.

This isn't a try to take out a disadvantage but a move to put yourself as a healer and others ie mages at an extreme advantage.

If you ever see me in a BG let me know you will heal me and I'd be glad to see you own. I know for a fact that an x2 with a tank who dont taunt going against myself and a heal or 2 that heal and a few dpsers are gonna disolve.

BG's at the level of smug's are very dependant on communication. Be in VC and let your tank know your in trouble. Every now and then an ungrouped dpser is with a group that your trying to kill and enc taunts dont work on him. If your tank is good he will still be able to get their attention until your dps stack kills him.

I live by my healer. You should live by your tank.

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Old 03-22-2010, 08:14 PM   #60
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it´s the tanks job to taunt in the right time. this is why it is irrelevant if there are icons displaying class or not.

if there is no tank it doesn´t matter anyway because damage dealer would tear apart everything they want( or not depends on participating players ) but they dont have an advantage. it´s also good that illusions are disabledon bg server. i hope both will never change because you and the enemy can take advantage of it.

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