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Old 08-19-2009, 08:05 PM   #91
sayam

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Noaani wrote:

Runewind wrote:

I just hope they took some of our suggestions here. I'm figuring they haven't from what has been said, but I am hoping. At least they are reading the thread. Aeralik responded pretty quickly. I'm at least hoping for a system that is mobside, or targetside I guess. If they make it playerside than there is going to be a mass exodus. Hopefully they realize that.

So, in a system where gear degrades based on the level of your target, how does a level 90 player in level 90 gear stack up against a level 97 avatar?

The people that want gear to degrade vs the target are thinking only of leveling up. They are not looking at the game at the new level cap, nor the encounters that would be present at that level cap.

I like the idea and I do understand exactly what this means.  Whatever it turns out to be will be what the devs are trying to balance against.  It is quite possible that there would be no reason to create a 97 avatar.  If they do make it 97 then they will be trying to balance around what your gear would be like at that level.

It was mentioned that some of the numbers just get silly with a rating system (an example of comparing strength values in the 1000s).  Why?  Mitigation values can be in the 1000s and that is acceptable but suddenly if a stat value is in the 1000s it is ludicrous.  The fact that this game doesn't allow loot from grey mobs makes this concern even less of one than there is in other games like WoW where the people 20 levels above could still kill the mobs for loot (if there was anything worth anything that wasn't no-trade).  It seems perfectly fine to me to have the values increase with time if that is what keeps the game balanced.  6 years from now I could have 1 million health and I'll be killing bosses with 10 billion health but if that means that I'm not using the bloodthirsty choker at level 110 that works for me.

In all reality, I know now that they have already made their choice either way.  I'm hoping they chose a rating system that checks versus the mob's current level but will work with whatever they end up doing if it doens't break the game.

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Old 08-20-2009, 03:29 AM   #92
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So after you guys craped on Avatar gear on test server are you still putting in gear degredation?  I mean there is no real point to it now you already degraded the heck out of it.  Now you can give back the same gear next expansion and say look at all the creative upgrades we put in the game for you.

Hey guys in 10 levels all that gear you farmed for more then a year is going to be worse then the current Timmorous Deep level 20 quest gear.

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Old 08-20-2009, 04:11 AM   #93
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ShamusOB wrote:

So after you guys craped on Avatar gear on test server are you still putting in gear degredation? 

I love crapes!

I think the changes on test need a revise.   Preferably by some dev who plays the same game I do.

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Old 08-20-2009, 09:53 AM   #94
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Generic123 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

As a player who doesn't raid, has lots of level capped characters, has a casual approach to gear, doesn't run instances every day, I'm not affected by the problem this change is perported to fix.

Sure you are. How would you feel about an expansion where there were no gear upgrades? That is exactly what you are facing without this change. I guess you could ask them to hand out raid gear for the level 80-90 solo quests, but that would have a big effect on many others and this isn't a single player game. What affects others affects the game community, which affects you.

There will never be an expansion released which does not have gear upgrades for me, especially in the light of the new level of mobs in that new expansion. New mobs = new gear to deal with those new mobs and make you even better against the old ones. I don't need raid gear - I just don't see where you think I said that. Perhaps you think I want to be like you - believe me, nothing could be further from my ambitions. 

Even if you play it as strictly a single player game, what you are essentially saying is "I want the top end cut off for gear to be tailored to me and me only". Since SOE has to have more then one paying customer, even that decision affects you unless you are willing to pay a multi-million dollar annual subscription out of your own pocket.

I don't see anywhere in my statement where I say that. I'm saying "this problem doesn't affect me, it never will. A solution which makes my character less effective with content I have already done is unacceptable." What you're essentially saying is that top end stuff is out of control, let's nerf everyone. If it's only raiders that have this problem, then why not just make the changes affect only FABLED+ equipment?

BTW, if you think this is about all the players, let's pressure SOE to come up with real statistics on how many people are doing what. Let's finally put an end to this argument of what percentage of current subscribers are doing what. I'm prepared to be a minority player if real figures show that I am. Are you prepared to accept that what you do is niche? I doubt that SOE really knows, based on their recent survey, which asked what we do - why do that if they already knew - and how accurate could the response be if not everyone knows about it and takes part?

To be frank, I don't know how they manage to make any decisions without knowing who is playing their game and what they enjoy doing in it the most. Maybe that's really why there are so many gripes made by players in MMOs, no-one is actually making informed decisions. Game designers, on the whole, seem to make decisions based on what they like doing, sometimes to the exclusion of all else.

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Old 08-20-2009, 10:10 AM   #95
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sayam wrote:

I like the idea and I do understand exactly what this means.  Whatever it turns out to be will be what the devs are trying to balance against.  It is quite possible that there would be no reason to create a 97 avatar.  If they do make it 97 then they will be trying to balance around what your gear would be like at that level.

So, essentially what making gear degrade vs the level of the mob is doing, is forcing the developers to go back through every single encounter in the game and lower it by 2 - 5 levels so that it can be killed by players at the intended level.

Almost every mob that has been end game throught the life of this game has been orange con. If gear starts degrading vs the level of the mob, it means people will need to be a higher level than intended in order to kill it.

Asking about avatars in T9 was simply a way of pointing out that it would require a shift in development of content in order to make a change like this work. I assumed people would be smart enough to realise how it would affect the game at lower levels.

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Old 08-20-2009, 10:48 AM   #96
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Noaani wrote:

sayam wrote:

I like the idea and I do understand exactly what this means.  Whatever it turns out to be will be what the devs are trying to balance against.  It is quite possible that there would be no reason to create a 97 avatar.  If they do make it 97 then they will be trying to balance around what your gear would be like at that level.

So, essentially what making gear degrade vs the level of the mob is doing, is forcing the developers to go back through every single encounter in the game and lower it by 2 - 5 levels so that it can be killed by players at the intended level.

Almost every mob that has been end game throught the life of this game has been orange con. If gear starts degrading vs the level of the mob, it means people will need to be a higher level than intended in order to kill it.

Asking about avatars in T9 was simply a way of pointing out that it would require a shift in development of content in order to make a change like this work. I assumed people would be smart enough to realise how it would affect the game at lower levels.

I am surprised Noaani at this post, you are way more rational than this. First a dev has already stated this system will not effect anything below level 60 so every single encounter does not need to be adjusted.

Second, just as in player based the level based adjustment doesn't have to prevent fighting orange con mobs, if gear reduction doesn't occur until a mob is red TO THE GEAR level then this issue is NON EXIXTENT. So a level 90 piece of gear still works as fully efective against that level 97 avatar; this would still remove the lower tier gear for the next expansions content, (level 80 and 70 stuff like bloodthirsty choker) forcing upgrades, while at the same time allowing the lower tier gear to remain fully effective for the tier it was created.

This is fairly obvious logic and I fail to see why some haven't seen through this. I don't see the sense in making gear become obsolete for the tier it was designed, this will very much effect casuals trying to break into the raiding areana, what's the point of raiding that blue zone when the gear is useless to you (such as casuals raiding VP when they are 90).

 I don't agree with the possibility of only the current tier's gear will be the effective gear to use, when I kill a level 90 X4 RAID MOB (bastion zone) and he drops a level 80 piece of gear only to have that gear be nerfed in T9 ( the mob was a T9 MOB for Pete's sake) there is something wrong with the whole game concept at that point.

We could easily end up with a model where the only way a new raid guild of "casuals turned raiders" could raid the new content is by gearing up through instances in seperate little groups becuase all of the previous tier's gear will be less useful than treasured at level 90. I don't understand why anyone wants to make this the raid progression. This will have the effect of removing zones from playability, why even bother exploring the zone when it is pointless, GEAR is the main reason for entering a zone. There are just so many possible unintended consequences of making gear obsolete for the tier it was designed that I do not believe it has been analyzed enough to effectivly implement.

In my example above using MOB level scaling this is still accomplished, and the previous tiers gear is still removed from the game, only now it is done for those tiers above the gear level not for ALL tiers except the current level.

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Old 08-20-2009, 05:29 PM   #97
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[email protected] wrote:

I don't see anywhere in my statement where I say that. I'm saying "this problem doesn't affect me, it never will. A

What part of "current Fabled gear being the best that can possibly be made in the current system" did you not understand? In some cases even high end Legendary is close to this threshold. The only way it's possible to make better gear then what you currently have under the current system is to make treasured/mastercrafted = close to, or equal to the currently maxed out Fabled, and then it's done, no further meaningful upgrades are possible for anyone.

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Old 08-20-2009, 07:03 PM   #98
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Noaani wrote:

Runewind wrote:

I just hope they took some of our suggestions here. I'm figuring they haven't from what has been said, but I am hoping. At least they are reading the thread. Aeralik responded pretty quickly. I'm at least hoping for a system that is mobside, or targetside I guess. If they make it playerside than there is going to be a mass exodus. Hopefully they realize that.

So, in a system where gear degrades based on the level of your target, how does a level 90 player in level 90 gear stack up against a level 97 avatar?

The people that want gear to degrade vs the target are thinking only of leveling up. They are not looking at the game at the new level cap, nor the encounters that would be present at that level cap.

It's very simple, Noaani. If you convert the system to a numerical rating system like mitigation is than all you need to do is have a higher number to handle level 97 mobs. In fact, that makes it even easier to design upgrades. It means that raiders who are taking out level 97 Avatars will have a reason to get a piece of gear from a raid zone that would put them well over 100% crit, double attack, etc. against level 90 or 95 mobs. Because they need to get their high percentages on level 97 mobs.

We aren't just thinking of leveling up. We're thinking of upgrades seeming like actual upgrades and not simply treading water. If it's a numerical rating system then The higher numbers make you much more effective against lower level mobs or the mobs from last expansion, but keeping the same gear you fought them with before won't make you less effective. And it means that there is still a reason to upgrade your gear to continue to be effective against higher level mobs.

In addition, it makes it really easy to break down treasured/legendar/fabled gear. Because presumably if you are soloing you are barely fighting mobs that are yellow to you. So the treasured/legendary gear that you have will have lower numbers but you would only need those low numbers to be effective against the mobs you are fighting. When you get to heroic content and start fighting high yellow and low orange mobs you end up needing that heroic gear that is mostly high legendary and some fabled because those numbers will be high enough to mantain effectiveness against those high level mobs. When you are raiding avatars and such, the gear you are getting, while not needed against that heroic content will be needed to keep up your same effectiveness against the avatars you are fighting. But at no point does leveling up punish you. You are simply less effective against higher level mobs.

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Old 08-21-2009, 04:47 AM   #99
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I understand the trouble devs are  facing bout the base damage on items and because of the % increase makeing it hard for them to design more competitive gear in the next x pac, My  suggestion would be to scale the base on those items with base damage down as u lvl makeing say for instance the neck of plague leave it alone as u r lvl 80 at the 15% base, at lvl 81 that 15% base lowers to 13%, at lvl 82 it lowers to 11% and so on till ur lvl 90 and that piece is no comparison to the new level 90 piece with 15% base on it. as far as crit mit that can be scaled in same way. If this isnt the salution im sure there is a ton of other options that r better then trashing gear that people have spent so much time trying to get and making it worthless junk 5 months b4 the new x pac.  If this nerf goes into place it would be such a shame i would have to stop playing till the new x pac cuz the few pieces i wanted r now junk and really whats the point if the end game loot that i have wont help me get the new lvl 90 stuff faster.  Sit back and let my debt clear?  5 months? a lot of time not playing my favorite game maybe time to look for somin new : (                  Bummer!

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Old 08-21-2009, 08:21 AM   #100
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[email protected] wrote:

This system seems to hurt the causal player most of all.   Of course once your max level the items you get should always be of your same level it wont affect you once your back into the raiding and have gear thats equal to you.  I personally feel like this will be a game killer for anyone just starting out and progressing through the game having to worry so much about getting new equipment on the route to max level.  This single idea has to be the least player friendly idea next to the much debated SWG change.  It will not affect me as much as most toons being a raider I will simply blow through the new 10 levels and have new gear in a matter of weeks  to replace the degredation of my old items.  This honestly seems like a very calculated move as the devs cannot simply improve the new gear to be upgrades...the numbers game for EQ2 has gotten way to high far too fast.  Now the only way to compete is to offer the same gear over and make our older items just not as effective.  Why do i need to make an entirely new set of gear if i can simply make the old set less effective and make the 'new' set with generally same stats required?  I certainly hope this doesnt play out the way I feel it will.  That said if it does the current 'boom' in new subs we are feeling well its over guys.  Personally I never complain I have always given you the Devs credit for having a more overall grasp of what the game needed to stay alive.  This however I hope you have been listening to the player base.  This will be filed under the second strike in my mind against this game fighter changes even though never implemented where bad.  This idea is worse.   My final thought in what DnD game, and EQ1 was based on DnD so EQ2 is in a way,  Does a character's weapons become less effective as they became more powerful?   This is a flawed idea and to me its only coming into play because a moderate control over how the game progressed was not observed.

pardon the spelling/punctuation dont have time to spell check heading to raid.

-Raz

Firstly, as a new player (or at least one not yet at level 80) I don't think new players will notice this effect much, I'm always upgrading my gear every 10 or so levels anyway so the change is moot.

Secondily, as I see it the problem is that for each tier of the game they perform a gear reset, as this allows new players to enter into the game without having to raid their way through 5 or so tiers of content to catch up (which is what a pure DnD game would then make you do).

To perform the reset the gear levels need to increase, they cannot increase by just say 10 strength a tier because that 10 strength becomes an ever smaller amount, too small an increase and people will just grab level 70 raid gear and clear level 80 raids no problem bypassing all the storyline and progression.  So the increase now needs to be a percentage, as every stat increases by a percentage we quickly go from a boss at level 50 with 1 million HP to a boss at level 80 with 50 million HP, and the stats start to go almost exponentially up.

In this I see gear degredation as a method to keep in check rampant stat inflation, the stats can still go up (and should to make sense in the game for progression and also enough to prevent a level 70 raid geared player clearing the level 80 raids!  Although the level difference would make a big obstacle for this, maybe not enough) but at a much slower rate.  WoW went for this solution since they hit the same problems when they went to level 80.  They added in the rating system with gear degrading as you out-levelled it (although cleverly because the ratings on gear went up you didn't see this, and seeing how mind numbingly easy that game became, without gear degredation I shudder to think how much easier it would have been without the slight drop in gear performance gear degredation added in between picking up upgrades).

That's my thoughts on this change, I hope they can get the system right so its clear what is an upgrade, and I also hope people can see its not game breaking since they have always needed new gear at each tier of content anyway since I'm enjoying EQ2 now and would like there to be a lot of people to adventure with.

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Old 08-21-2009, 12:29 PM   #101
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[email protected] wrote:

My final thought in what DnD game, and EQ1 was based on DnD so EQ2 is in a way,  Does a character's weapons become less effective as they became more powerful?   This is a flawed idea and to me its only coming into play because a moderate control over how the game progressed was not observed.

D&D only has 30 levels.  You'll notice the EQ2 system worked fine with 50 levels, even.  80-90 levels gets to the point where the normal increases in character power that worked just fine before begin to have unintended effects.

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Old 08-22-2009, 12:40 PM   #102
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Why should the item degrade? Its static, if I am 80 or 81 it has not changed,,,,I have,,we already base combat values on the level of the TARGET,,,why should this change?

I still wear the Orb of Tunare plus 8 DPS earring when I am dpsing on several of my toons, so make it scale based on the level of the mob im fighting, say against a 70 it still gives full mod but against an 80 i lose 20% of the mod and so forth. Easy answer and it makes more sence than the item degrading becuase I lvled up.

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Old 08-23-2009, 08:59 AM   #103
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Nimbrithil wrote:

Why should the item degrade? Its static, if I am 80 or 81 it has not changed,,,,I have,,we already base combat values on the level of the TARGET,,,why should this change?

I still wear the Orb of Tunare plus 8 DPS earring when I am dpsing on several of my toons, so make it scale based on the level of the mob im fighting, say against a 70 it still gives full mod but against an 80 i lose 20% of the mod and so forth. Easy answer and it makes more sence than the item degrading becuase I lvled up.

Thats why people want the % based bonuses to be point based and put on the mitigation curve style degrade. That way, items stay the same in terms of strength, and dont rust away under your fingertips as you level up.

As stated elsewhere, im not a raider, but as someone who has studied game development, the concept of punishing a character for leveling up by removing the value from their hard-earned gear to a small degree is pretty much  against the stuff established in game design 101. Personally Id hate to see my gear get actually worse. In the end, the player-proposed system will achieve the same end result, but the psychological effect ("omg I level up and Im WEAKER!! [Removed for Content]!"), even if it actually isnt weakening the player, is much different compared to what the player suggestion would result in, namely the perception that the higher level mobs require stronger items. And that perception is what it has always been and always should be. You shouldnt feel weaker by leveling, you should feel that the enemies are bigger challenges to you in your current form.

Along with those point-based blue stats, Id also heavily suggest reworking the UI a little bit, so that all % numbers can be seen at a glance, for example instead of "melee critical chance: 81%", the new UI would show "Melee Critical Rating: 935 (81%)" rather than requiring a mouseover. Why? because youll have so many numbers where youd only see the rating, meaning if you want to check the overall status of your gear, you would have to mouseover 10 different values, which is much worse compared to simply looking at your charsheet and seeing the rating and corresponding % value at one glance.

I really do hope that the devs see the benefits of this system. Sure it will likely be much work, but I believe that the playerbase will greatly appreciate it, since from all I saw in these topics, the majority of the forum-based players seem against this, be it raiders or not, rather than for this change. And I believe the often brought-up suggestion as stated above indeed would be a non-trolling and constructive approach at a system which achieves the same goal but with a better overall result.

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Old 08-23-2009, 05:49 PM   #104
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I have been playing EQ since the second month it came out then switched to EQ2 and have been playing all but the first month.  I have two accounts because I like the variety in toons.  I have all the expansions X2.  I still have no level 80 character because I spread out my time, I don't play every day and I'm not a grinder.  I like to explore and enjoy each area I go into and the game is already so large that if I were just starting now I'm fairly sure I'd never see all, or even most, of the content. 

For the sake of people that play non stop SOE is about to make a change that will likely cause me to retire from the game.  I can't keep up now with gearing my toons so that I can just play and have fun in the areas that are appropriate for my level.  I'm a casual player, I have a life.  My whole guild is like this.  Casual players.  If you think about how much money SOE is making from us compared to people that use their resources at max, screwing us over makes little sense. I've been paying for two accounts for all these years and am just about to hit eighty for the first time.  Driving away people like me, for people who demand lots of time and development attention is business foolish.

Honestly, I haven't gotten over attunment yet.  The game hasn't been as fun since that went into place and has erroded my ability to keep up with my friends much less the Jones (raiders) who I am not actually interested in keeping up with.  It's already been totally frustrating with level seventy spells being not worth upgrading because I can't afford masters.  OK they gave a very slight improvement to that with research assistants.. but since only one toon per account can be researching at a time, it's, again, screwing people like me who like lots of different toons.  I'm going to have the exact same problem with my second pair as they approach teir eight and there will be no months long process of getting one spell improved at a time.

The answer seems pretty simple to me: SOE needs to make situational gear and has needed to for a very long time.  Gear that raiders need and wear should be wonderful on raids and less wonderful on heroics and slightly better than what I can quest for, make or buy against small group and solo mobs.  Raiders say they deserve better stuff.. I'm not sure I agree with this statement, but for now, I will argue with it as an assumption.  By having situational gear SOE can do whatever they like to fix the raiders gear problem without screwing over we casual players. 

Failing that, then they need to offer raid free versions of the game, despite the fact that this might require additional programing the fact that non raiders don't chew through content like raiders do will ameliorate that.  Right now, we casual players have been financially supplimenting the costs of having a game with raiders in it.  Crapping on us is not an appropriate response nor a good business model.

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Old 08-23-2009, 06:28 PM   #105
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Kasandria wrote:

I have been playing EQ since the second month it came out then switched to EQ2 and have been playing all but the first month.  I have two accounts because I like the variety in toons.  I have all the expansions X2.  I still have no level 80 character because I spread out my time, I don't play every day and I'm not a grinder.  I like to explore and enjoy each area I go into and the game is already so large that if I were just starting now I'm fairly sure I'd never see all, or even most, of the content. 

For the sake of people that play non stop SOE is about to make a change that will likely cause me to retire from the game.  I can't keep up now with gearing my toons so that I can just play and have fun in the areas that are appropriate for my level.  I'm a casual player, I have a life.  My whole guild is like this.  Casual players.  If you think about how much money SOE is making from us compared to people that use their resources at max, screwing us over makes little sense. I've been paying for two accounts for all these years and am just about to hit eighty for the first time.  Driving away people like me, for people who demand lots of time and development attention is business foolish.

Honestly, I haven't gotten over attunment yet.  The game hasn't been as fun since that went into place and has erroded my ability to keep up with my friends much less the Jones (raiders) who I am not actually interested in keeping up with.  It's already been totally frustrating with level seventy spells being not worth upgrading because I can't afford masters.  OK they gave a very slight improvement to that with research assistants.. but since only one toon per account can be researching at a time, it's, again, screwing people like me who like lots of different toons.  I'm going to have the exact same problem with my second pair as they approach teir eight and there will be no months long process of getting one spell improved at a time.

The answer seems pretty simple to me: SOE needs to make situational gear and has needed to for a very long time.  Gear that raiders need and wear should be wonderful on raids and less wonderful on heroics and slightly better than what I can quest for, make or buy against small group and solo mobs.  Raiders say they deserve better stuff.. I'm not sure I agree with this statement, but for now, I will argue with it as an assumption.  By having situational gear SOE can do whatever they like to fix the raiders gear problem without screwing over we casual players. 

Failing that, then they need to offer raid free versions of the game, despite the fact that this might require additional programing the fact that non raiders don't chew through content like raiders do will ameliorate that.  Right now, we casual players have been financially supplimenting the costs of having a game with raiders in it.  Crapping on us is not an appropriate response nor a good business model.

Kasandria here illustrates an important point.  How do you balance a game that has so many types of players and content?  Can you make a game that is all things to all people?  Time and time again the business world has shown us this is NOT the case.  I know LOTS of players, but the "casuals" while numerous, are often not the ones who keep the subscriptions rolling consistently.  yes Kasandria is one of the minority who does this but its the hard core people who are there year after year.

Now when I say "hard-core" I do NOT mean the raider alone.  I also mean the crafters who LOVE crafting, they have toons that are level 20 adventurers but 80 crafting skill, they dodged and weaved while friends with 80 adventurers dragged them through faction grinds to get RoK faction recipies.  There are the hard core roleplayers that are content with a level 45 paladin in hand crafted BUT their story tells them they are the true chosen of Marr.  There are the ones that simply love tearing instances apart and have the best instance gear and the skills of the hardest core raider so you would not know they were legendary equipped unless you inspected them thanks to appearance gear.  These people are the ones that the economic forecasts are based on.  SOE says "we have x number of these people so even if we have the ebb and flow of the casuals to and from the flavor of the month, we are good thanks to these cats."

The funny thing is the idea of level by level degredation based on the player would smack ALL OF THEM.  It hurts the casual people because it can take them right up to the launch of the new expansion to get gear that was finally good for what is now old.  How many people are STILL struggling to get mythicals.  Heck why do you think VS was finally nerfed to heck?  Because on the eve of the 2nd expansion since RoK launch people still don't have them.  It will hurt the crafters because "why should I spend plat on gear that will degrade almost as soon as I put it on", it will hurt the raider because why should they bother to go farming for raid gear that without the degredation would potentially be actually worse than what they had 10 levels prior.  It will hurt the instance runners because with the INSANELY ridiculous RNG drop rate of the decent stuff you can realistically NEVER replace that item you FINALLY got to drop after over 100 runs in TSO.  Everyone simply gets disgusted.

Now if you are all about a clean slate, chasing away these players only to replace them with people that don't know through experience how things used to be, this will be fine, but this certainly is not the way I would go about trying to ensure customer loyalty.  You would think in a faultering ecnomy you would be more about trying to keep the loyal customers rather than gambling on a "change it and they will come" philosophy. 

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Old 08-25-2009, 05:57 PM   #106
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OK so it seems that Item Degradetion is going to be rammed into us like the proverbial....well nevermind I don't want to get abnned yet again....

So this is my request....nay plea....don't make every single drop worth having be no trade. The shear mountain of crap I have seen get sold to the merchant or transmuted becuase no one in the group in TSO needed it is just sick. T8 infusions are becom,ing eadier to find than druid class healers. Give us something to actually BUY off the broker for a change.

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Old 08-25-2009, 06:12 PM   #107
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Let me preface this post by saying I do NOT kill Avatars and have no Avatar gear.

WIth that out of the way I have been reading and posting on the Avatar nerf thread in the In testing forum.  There Fyreflyte said something that troubled me A LOT in terms of gear degredation.  He stated that the rather large nerfs of the Avatar gear (some of which actually made Avatar peices not as good or = to current end game instance raid mobs, was necessary because at lvl 90 these items, even with degredation would be better than level 90 loot.  He stated that the degredation would be x3 or 66%.  Now this lead me to think the following.  It appears based on this that the ONLY thing that would make a lvl 90 drop better than its level 80 drop is the degredation system for the "regular" gear.  Does anyone else other than me have a problem with farming gear for 10 lvls to get something that is only an "upgrade" because the game makes my older gear turn to junk?  I am not talking about chokers, Crimson robes or any of that, I am just talking about the "regular" pieces you get via progression.

Sorry but if it does indeed turn out that the level 90 boots, gloves whatever are not an imporvement to the 80 stuff when I look at them side by side without degredation I am off to something else, thats not progression its the illusion of progression

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Old 08-27-2009, 04:46 PM   #108
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t9 itemization = crap

Just want to 2nd Galibier's last post.

If level 80 items non-degraded are better than level 90 items of the same quality (legendary, fabled, etc.), then this game will not be worth playing when Sentinel's Fate hits.

Yet this appears to be exactly what is happening. Fyreflyte said that some avatar gear even nerfed by 3x will still be better than top end raid gear in t9. Since little (no?) other t8 top end raid gear that I'm aware of (at 100% effectiveness) is worse than avatar gear at 33% effectiveness, this means that t9 gear is going to be WORSE than t8 on the whole. And item degradation is only in game to force us to downgrade to t9.

If SF goes live with itemization like that, you can count me out too. In fact, I'm already losing motivation to play knowing that is looming on the horizon. What's the point of trying to upgrade my gear now when you're going to force me into crappier gear next expansion?

alternatives to degradation

Gear degradation is demotivating. No one is going to like it when they level from 84 to 85 and it's harder to kill an 80 mob in the same gear simply because they leveled up, when it should be rather the opposite.

Regarding alternatives to this madness, I would support a point-based system like mitigation as has been mentioned here. However, I doubt we will see this as it would require a lot of work (a revamp of older tier gear to use the new point-based system). Plus Aeralik said earlier in this thread that they've already got the existing degradation system implemented, which doesn't bode well for a point-based system getting implemented instead.

All in all, SF is shaping up to be the biggest misstep in EQ2's history. But as I said in the avatar gear nerf thread, I hope I'm wrong!

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Old 08-27-2009, 05:05 PM   #109
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[email protected] wrote:

t9 itemization = crap

Just want to 2nd Galibier's last post.

If level 80 items non-degraded are better than level 90 items of the same quality (legendary, fabled, etc.), then this game will not be worth playing when Sentinel's Fate hits.

Yet this appears to be exactly what is happening. Fyreflyte said that some avatar gear even nerfed by 3x will still be better than top end raid gear in t9. Since little (no?) other t8 top end raid gear that I'm aware of (at 100% effectiveness) is worse than avatar gear at 33% effectiveness, this means that t9 gear is going to be WORSE than t8 on the whole. And item degradation is only in game to force us to downgrade to t9.

If SF goes live with itemization like that, you can count me out too. In fact, I'm already losing motivation to play knowing that is looming on the horizon. What's the point of trying to upgrade my gear now when you're going to force me into crappier gear next expansion?

alternatives to degradation

Gear degradation is demotivating. No one is going to like it when they level from 84 to 85 and it's harder to kill an 80 mob in the same gear simply because they leveled up, when it should be rather the opposite.

Regarding alternatives to this madness, I would support a point-based system like mitigation as has been mentioned here. However, I doubt we will see this as it would require a lot of work (a revamp of older tier gear to use the new point-based system). Plus Aeralik said earlier in this thread that they've already got the existing degradation system implemented, which doesn't bode well for a point-based system getting implemented instead.

All in all, SF is shaping up to be the biggest misstep in EQ2's history. But as I said in the avatar gear nerf thread, I hope I'm wrong!

The irony of it all is...

Point-based cap system are just another way of doing the same thing as item degradation. NOTHING will change the fact that there is nowhere to go up on things like DA, Haste, etc. -- even with a point based system all you will be doing is re-earning those stats to get them back up near (or at) their caps.

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Old 08-29-2009, 06:18 PM   #110
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

quoted stuff

The irony of it all is...

Point-based cap system are just another way of doing the same thing as item degradation. NOTHING will change the fact that there is nowhere to go up on things like DA, Haste, etc. -- even with a point based system all you will be doing is re-earning those stats to get them back up near (or at) their caps.

Yes, it's a way to keep you from reaching caps with gear, but at least the gear gets better: +201 crit from a level 81 item is still an improvement over +200 from a level 80 item. And the degradation system they have is not the same as a point-based system at all.

It's completely different for me to hit 85, my gear degrades, and level 80 content is harder than it was at 84. It's sad when you have to mentor down to a lower level to have the power you once had with the same gear. (This is probably exactly why they came up with auto-mentoring.)

On the point system even though the percentage it shows in Persona may go down if I level up, my gear doesn't actually get worse at all levels of play just because I level up (it's still the same +200 crit it has been, and still just as effective vs level 80 mobs as it had been). I always had a lesser chance to crit against an 85, but I didn't see it in my display until I turned 85.

See the difference?

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Old 08-29-2009, 08:58 PM   #111
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Let me preface this post by saying I do NOT kill Avatars and have no Avatar gear.

WIth that out of the way I have been reading and posting on the Avatar nerf thread in the In testing forum.  There Fyreflyte said something that troubled me A LOT in terms of gear degredation.  He stated that the rather large nerfs of the Avatar gear (some of which actually made Avatar peices not as good or = to current end game instance raid mobs, was necessary because at lvl 90 these items, even with degredation would be better than level 90 loot.  He stated that the degredation would be x3 or 66%.  Now this lead me to think the following.  It appears based on this that the ONLY thing that would make a lvl 90 drop better than its level 80 drop is the degredation system for the "regular" gear.  Does anyone else other than me have a problem with farming gear for 10 lvls to get something that is only an "upgrade" because the game makes my older gear turn to junk?  I am not talking about chokers, Crimson robes or any of that, I am just talking about the "regular" pieces you get via progression.

Sorry but if it does indeed turn out that the level 90 boots, gloves whatever are not an imporvement to the 80 stuff when I look at them side by side without degredation I am off to something else, thats not progression its the illusion of progression

This is my biggest problem with the nerfs going in.  If reducing my Avatar gear down to 33% of its current effectiveness is still better than what I am getting at level 90 then seriously what is the point in the expansion for me?

Negative progression, and treading water are no fun for players.

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Old 08-30-2009, 09:34 PM   #112
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:22 PM   #113
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My concern is the gear level that drops. Right now if I do a level 80 quest I get

gear that varies from level 76-79. After the expac, if I do a level 82 or 83 quest

and get 78-79 gear I will think real hard about moving on. If the quest is labeled

level 83 then it better reward level 83 gear. With the old way of assigning rewards

you could go thru 3-4 levels and still be recieving gear worse than you already have.

I can see it now doing level 85 quests is where you would begin to see level 81-82 gear.

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Old 09-24-2009, 12:05 PM   #114
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I have thought a lot about item degradation as well.  Although I don't fully understand game mechanics/design, I do know that I have spent the better part of a year gearing up my raid main, and farming shards for my alts.  It is my alts I am most concerned about in the coming expansion.  They are able to solo effectively in the off times when I am not raiding.  If their T2 gear immediately begins to degrade on dinging level 81 and every tier thereafter, their progression in the new content is going to become extremely difficult.

I worked hard to get my alts to 80.  I worked even harder to get them geared in T2.  It seems to me, and I may be 100% wrong, but item degradation looks to solve a high end raiding problem, and punishes the hard work some of us have done to enjoy the game with alts.

And another point: While I think auto-mentoring can be fun, it comes with a  percentage penalty of adventure exp loss!!   I don't want to spend my alt's time revisiting all the content I have played for 5 years, at a very severe penalty, when new content awaits and will be very difficult due to item degradation each and every level ding.

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Old 09-24-2009, 01:08 PM   #115
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[email protected] wrote:

t9 itemization = crap

Just want to 2nd Galibier's last post.

If level 80 items non-degraded are better than level 90 items of the same quality (legendary, fabled, etc.), then this game will not be worth playing when Sentinel's Fate hits.

Yet this appears to be exactly what is happening. Fyreflyte said that some avatar gear even nerfed by 3x will still be better than top end raid gear in t9. Since little (no?) other t8 top end raid gear that I'm aware of (at 100% effectiveness) is worse than avatar gear at 33% effectiveness, this means that t9 gear is going to be WORSE than t8 on the whole. And item degradation is only in game to force us to downgrade to t9.

If SF goes live with itemization like that, you can count me out too. In fact, I'm already losing motivation to play knowing that is looming on the horizon. What's the point of trying to upgrade my gear now when you're going to force me into crappier gear next expansion?

alternatives to degradation

Gear degradation is demotivating. No one is going to like it when they level from 84 to 85 and it's harder to kill an 80 mob in the same gear simply because they leveled up, when it should be rather the opposite.

Regarding alternatives to this madness, I would support a point-based system like mitigation as has been mentioned here. However, I doubt we will see this as it would require a lot of work (a revamp of older tier gear to use the new point-based system). Plus Aeralik said earlier in this thread that they've already got the existing degradation system implemented, which doesn't bode well for a point-based system getting implemented instead.

All in all, SF is shaping up to be the biggest misstep in EQ2's history. But as I said in the avatar gear nerf thread, I hope I'm wrong!

Welcome to the new EQ2!!

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Old 09-24-2009, 09:11 PM   #116
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It is my alts I am most concerned about in the coming expansion.  They are able to solo effectively in the off times when I am not raiding.  If their T2 gear immediately begins to degrade on dinging level 81 and every tier thereafter, their progression in the new content is going to become extremely difficult.

Levelling from 80 to 90 should not be difficult regardless of your current gear (assuming you aren't naked). We'll have ample quest lines, faction rewards, and tradeskill gear to fill out all of your armor slots as you level. There will be plenty of gear to obtain once you've hit 90 as well, and it will be presented in a progression-based style, such that the easier to acquire gear helps you defeat harder encounters to obtain the better gear.

This does mean that you will end up replacing all that T2 shard armor you've spent time farming, but that is part of the fun of expansions: you get to acquire new gear that makes you more powerful. The shard armor won't be replaced immediately, and will give you an initial leg up, but eventually you'll run into armor that outshines it. Without some form of gear advancement the expansion would undeniably be a lot less fun.

Edited for spelling, as per usual ;P

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Old 09-24-2009, 09:56 PM   #117
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Fyreflyte wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It is my alts I am most concerned about in the coming expansion.  They are able to solo effectively in the off times when I am not raiding.  If their T2 gear immediately begins to degrade on dinging level 81 and every tier thereafter, their progression in the new content is going to become extremely difficult.

Levelling from 80 to 90 should not be difficult regardless of your current gear (assuming you aren't naked). We'll have ample quest lines, faction rewards, and tradeskill gear to fill out all of your armor slots as you level. There will be plenty of gear to obtain once you've hit 90 as well, and it will be presented in a progression-based style, such that the easier to acquire gear helps you defeat harder encounters to obtain the better gear.

This does mean that you will end up replacing all that T2 shard armor you've spent time farming, but that is part of the fun of expansions: you get to acquire new gear that makes you more powerful. The shard armor won't be replaced immediately, and will give you an initial leg up, but eventually you'll run into armor that outshines it. Without some form of gear advancement the expansion would undeniably be a lot less fun.

Edited for spelling, as per usual ;P

With all due respect, I think that maybe a few folks on your dev team have forgotten what is fun, and more importantly, what is not fun.  I hope that acquiring new gear is not nearly as monotonous or tedious as acquiring new gear has been in TSO.  RoK -- as bad as it was -- at least allowed players options on how to progress.  In TSO, there seems to be no viable option to get better gear, except to farm shards.  Once you get those shards, you can get the same piece of armor that everyone else in your class is wearing.  The legendary armor that drops in TSO is largely inferior to shard armor (from my observation), which leaves players doing a monotonous grind.  Can we please not do that again in the new expansion?  I don't mean to have such a negative tone, but TSO has been the worst expansion in EverQuest II's history, and possibly one of the worst gaming experiences that I've had online.  Please don't repeat the same things again.

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