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Old 08-13-2009, 09:46 AM   #1
Proud_Silence

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Has there ever been a lvl increasing expansion where you did not have to completely replace your equipment with the new expansion's loot ? Maybe a few extraordinary pieces from previous tiers exluded (Choker, parry belt pop to mind)

granted, in it's current state it's not overly hard to reach caps, and maybe SoE should have thought about this earlier, but does anyone know whether or not the stats and mechanics are going to remain the same as in it's current state ? Over the last few expansions SoE added a lot of extra stats ( Double Attack, crit mit, + CA dmg, +spell dmg, all kinds of procs...), making it absolutely necessary to aquire the latest stat(e) of art in terms of gear.

Maybe just MAYBE there will be something new and shiny in the next expansion that will be necessary to have in order to survive new raid encounters ? triple atk ! spell dmg amplifier ? Bane dmg ? special mitigation stats for certain mob types ? hell i don't know i'm not designing this game, but so far they've always given us the incentive to go out and get the newest gear, and it wasn't necessary to be wearing the best of the best gear from previous expansion to succeed.

When RoK came out i was in all fabled lvl 70 gear, and sure, i was a bit irritated having to realize i'm better off using lvl 72 Mastercrafted over my lvl 70 fabled gear, but that's just how it goes in mmorpgs.

How boring would it be if you'd just be able to keep all your lvl 80 gear and plow through new expansion...

What if T9 mobs have innate crit mit and you need new gear with extra "armor piercing" going along with the "+5 melee crit" to do dmg....or mobs have some aura that can only be penetrated with the new "aura penetrating stat"...still want to be wearing your old (and ineffective) equipment ? Flame me for what you want, i'm just coming up with random ideas, not saying they're brilliant, but maybe some of you catch the drift...

I for one am very much looking forward to February, so far i've had a fun time with every expansion, even tho it usually means i lose some of my current "power" because the playing field gets a bit more even while everyone is leveling up and trying to get the newest gear / AA's etc.

If people want to reach the top and remain there forever, maybe a dynamic MMORPG is not the best choice of game for them ?

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Old 08-13-2009, 09:49 AM   #2
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I think most of the complaining is about leveling up to 90 where each level your existing gear will get worse as you ding, meaning you'd have to completely change armor each and every level if you wanted to have no degradation on it at all.

At least, that is my major complaint. Give us 2-3 levels before it degrades and I'd be happy.

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Old 08-13-2009, 09:54 AM   #3
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I think most of the complaining is about leveling up to 90 where each level your existing gear will get worse as you ding, meaning you'd have to completely change armor each and every level if you wanted to have no degradation on it at all.

At least, that is my major complaint. Give us 2-3 levels before it degrades and I'd be happy.

thats only a small part of it.

Currently many people are spending months of time to get rare pieces. People are often happy they got them.

they want to spend at least some time and effort to replace those pieces with even better pieces.

The situation with gear degradation is that you do not have to spend time to get a better piece. You ding, Ding again, do a quest...and suddenly some quest you did in 1 hour time will get you a piece of gear better then for exemple a Zarakon earring.

Many people are adverse to downgrading. Many people like to put effort in upgrading.

yes, doing many hard quests while leveling ending in one great item to upgrade a piece from Zarakon is fine. No its not fine if suddenly rewards from crappy quests are better....err worse....err...upgrade to a downgraded piece.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:09 AM   #4
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firza wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I think most of the complaining is about leveling up to 90 where each level your existing gear will get worse as you ding, meaning you'd have to completely change armor each and every level if you wanted to have no degradation on it at all.

At least, that is my major complaint. Give us 2-3 levels before it degrades and I'd be happy.

thats only a small part of it.

Currently many people are spending months of time to get rare pieces. People are often happy they got them.

they want to spend at least some time and effort to replace those pieces with even better pieces.

The situation with gear degradation is that you do not have to spend time to get a better piece. You ding, Ding again, do a quest...and suddenly some quest you did in 1 hour time will get you a piece of gear better then for exemple a Zarakon earring.

Many people are adverse to downgrading. Many people like to put effort in upgrading.

yes, doing many hard quests while leveling ending in one great item to upgrade a piece from Zarakon is fine. No its not fine if suddenly rewards from crappy quests are better....err worse....err...upgrade to a downgraded piece.

I have no problem with them forcing you to use new itemization. The only problem is they should have done it from the start, people are now too attached to their old gear. Do you know how many fabled items I have that became junk after a new expansion? Boxes full.

But they're adding degradation in order to let them do itemization fresh for this tier, rather than adding yet another new mechanic (like crits and crit mit was) that would get you to upgrade your gear.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:18 AM   #5
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They actually *did* do it from the start, then pulled it out because it confused people.  Perhaps it was the presentation of it that confused people, it was a long time ago.

Basically, what you had was two "levels" on an item, one level where you could equip it, and a second level where you had "mastered" it.  At the "equip" level, the item wasn't at it's full potential.  Stats, damage, etc all slowly increased past the "equip" level toward the "mastery" level.

I don't honestly remember if there was a reverse "degrade" side for the curve once you exceeded the Mastery level.  You're talking about mechanics that are approaching five years old and no longer in place.

Nevertheless, they did actually do something like this from the start.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:20 AM   #6
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Banditman wrote:

They actually *did* do it from the start, then pulled it out because it confused people.  Perhaps it was the presentation of it that confused people, it was a long time ago.

Basically, what you had was two "levels" on an item, one level where you could equip it, and a second level where you had "mastered" it.  At the "equip" level, the item wasn't at it's full potential.  Stats, damage, etc all slowly increased past the "equip" level toward the "mastery" level.

I don't honestly remember if there was a reverse "degrade" side for the curve once you exceeded the Mastery level.  You're talking about mechanics that are approaching five years old and no longer in place.

Nevertheless, they did actually do something like this from the start.

Yep, and it did downgrade from when you got it to "white" down until it was "gray" (and basically was fully degraded).

I think there it was the presentation that confused folks. But put a level RANGE on items ("80-85+") after which it degrades heavily (10%+ per level) and make that range obvious and you wouldn't have so much confusion. That and the mechanics in general are much better understood now than they were back then.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:39 AM   #7
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TO the OP, try reading the LARGE amount of threads written on this issue to understand what is going on instead of pronouncing blind fanaticism and faith in a game change, you sound like our current batch of politicians who "Don't read the Bill but vote for it anyway."

There are a lot of valid issues currently being discussed and will continue to be until more information is posted on the exact nature of the changes to item scaling and degradation. I don't expect more details to come out yet as I am sure much is in flux, this is a good thing because it will allow changes to occur minus the community fallout of those who would not understand this is still in development.

This being said, the issues still needs to be discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

This is no small thing and if you didn't bother to read the threads on these issues why are you challenging those who are concerned and apparently have a better grasp of these facts.

For the record I support items degrading but as a delta between MOB level vs gear level, gear should never degrade vs player level. Player level is to contradictory to real life, yes I get this isn't real life but player level violates a concept to basic to experience for a person to accept imo.

For example: A world class swordsperson does not become less skillful in the use of a sword because it is of lower quality, yes it may not work as well as a quality one but the world class swordsperson would still be awesome with it compared to an amateur such as myself. Using player level for gear could make it so the amateur( lower level) could actually have MORE skill with said low quality sword compared to the world class professional(higher level), this is not how we perceive nor how things work. Even in fantasy games there are concepts and rules that must be followed or it all seems contrived and when that happens people lose interest because it violates their accepted and tolerated experiences, this is one of those things that will violate those experiences.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:40 AM   #8
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

firza wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I think most of the complaining is about leveling up to 90 where each level your existing gear will get worse as you ding, meaning you'd have to completely change armor each and every level if you wanted to have no degradation on it at all.

At least, that is my major complaint. Give us 2-3 levels before it degrades and I'd be happy.

I have no problem with them forcing you to use new itemization. The only problem is they should have done it from the start, people are now too attached to their old gear. Do you know how many fabled items I have that became junk after a new expansion? Boxes full.

I have no problem being forced out of gear also.

I do have a problem when it forces me to downgrade. I also have a problem when the equipment I have to wear is easy to get when it forces me out of gear I spend months to get.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:42 AM   #9
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Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:46 AM   #10
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My main issue with it is that the game as a whole doesnt currently have the itemization to support this kind of mechanic as it will apply to all equipment around 60 and up I think. It also devalues the time and effort players put in to aquire some very rare, possibly extremely rare items or time consuming to gain items. Also, it makes gear in the 1 - 9 gaps worthless compared to the cap items at like 80, 90 etc.

As I have said before, I dont like the idea of taking something that works perfectly fine such as our equipment, ruining it, and then presenting with something that is either the same or slightly worse but not ruined due to being at the new cap's level as an upgrade.

The very idea of possibly reaching the new cap and fighting the new raid encounters in legendary rather than the fabled equipment we aquired from the previous expansions raiding (armor and weapons that are by defination designed for tackling harder raid encounters) is entirely asinine in my opinion.

I wont fully judge the proposed change until it hits test, but I certainly am not happy with the very idea of it as it clearly punishes players for gearing up because of some developer's oversight or lack of planning. I may not quit over this specifically but I may very well quit due to friends of mine that will.

I have a healer friend for example who has the task of often solo healing and curing a group on the more difficult encounters such as Anashti this expansion. He has worked hard and earned a lot of gear as has everyone in my guild, but he is vehement upon quitting when this is implemented due to how much of a pain this tier's raids are, combined with the possibility of his gear being destroyed despite the effort that was involved in aquiring it.

Auto mentoring to regain lost stats isnt sensible to me at all, the very possible need to do so only proves how stupid this is.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:46 AM   #11
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:53 AM   #12
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Skwor wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

True, but to offer a counter to your example, if a swordsman upgrades to a different, "better" type of sword then they will likely loose a bit of expertise with the old type. That and it'd be a mess to determine some stats based on mobs level, especially when you can fight multiple mobs at different levels at once.

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:59 AM   #13
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

...

...

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

True, but to offer a counter to your example, if a swordsman upgrades to a different, "better" type of sword then they will likely loose a bit of expertise with the old type. That and it'd be a mess to determine some stats based on mobs level, especially when you can fight multiple mobs at different levels at once.

Yes the swordsperson would initially lose a bit of expertise however they would easily get it back with a little practice and in your counter your example is in upgrading which isn't really the issue. What we are talking about is the continued use of the item therefore the swordsperson would never lose the expertise

On the second point about multiple mobs, this mechanic is already in place for mitigation, the game already reports and calculates this, as such it is not new territory and SOE already has coding that can be modeled (which is currently in use on live servers) to do this very comparison

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:59 AM   #14
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

True, but to offer a counter to your example, if a swordsman upgrades to a different, "better" type of sword then they will likely loose a bit of expertise with the old type.

No, not really. A master swordsman is a master swordsman. All a better weapon should do is make them that much deadlier, if a master swordsman were to expand their knowledge their currently owned weapon would not get weaker they would actually get even better at using it.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:09 AM   #15
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Morghus wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

True, but to offer a counter to your example, if a swordsman upgrades to a different, "better" type of sword then they will likely loose a bit of expertise with the old type.

No, not really. A master swordsman is a master swordsman. All a better weapon should do is make them that much deadlier, if a master swordsman were to expand their knowledge their currently owned weapon would not get weaker they would actually get even better at using it.

The question is differnt:

Would that master swordsman take of his iron shirt and equip a smelly leather one?

Would he drop his well polished and sharpened blade for a crude cudgel?

or would he look, IF he decided to spend energy on new quipment, for improvements to his current?

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:14 AM   #16
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firza wrote:

Morghus wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Skwor wrote:

This being said, the issues still need discussed because the possibility having the same gear you could raid a T8 zone in easily may become less effective or even useless and result in you no longer being able to raid the zone using said gear. The zone for which the gear was developed for! This would be a very bad thing(talk about a demoralizing disincentive). Just one major issue currently on the threads is should items degrade based on player level (which would cause the issue I just mentioned) or should it be based on MOB level.

That one is relatively easy to respond to... IF the ultimately make gear scale down based on your level despite fighting lower level mobs, then all they'd have to do to solve that is to make it scale right back up while auto-mentor'd. Then you'd just have everyone AM to 80 and take the zone like they used to, for the most part.

That isn't so easy, you are still downgrading from a previously mastered raid, a level 90 in T8 gear should have an easier time on a T8 dungeon than a level 80 in T8 gear, see my part about the swordsperson for my logic on this. What is the point of leveling if you become less powerful to lower level zones in gear designed for those zones, auto-mentoring still makes you less powerful

True, but to offer a counter to your example, if a swordsman upgrades to a different, "better" type of sword then they will likely loose a bit of expertise with the old type.

No, not really. A master swordsman is a master swordsman. All a better weapon should do is make them that much deadlier, if a master swordsman were to expand their knowledge their currently owned weapon would not get weaker they would actually get even better at using it.

The question is differnt:

Would that master swordsman take of his iron shirt and equip a smelly leather one?

Would he drop his well polished and sharpened blade for a crude cudgel?

or would he look, IF he decided to spend energy on new quipment, for improvements to his current?

Indeed, although there is a very key difference from your example and the reality. Would you consider replacing say....the mythical, a legendary time-lost artifact that is in many cases forged for or by demigods and then had its true power unsealed by slaying several powerful beings, with a random legendary or fabled weapon with no background/history or reason for being more powerful....a logical upgrade?

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:15 AM   #17
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Proud_Silence wrote:

When RoK came out i was in all fabled lvl 70 gear, and sure, i was a bit irritated having to realize i'm better off using lvl 72 Mastercrafted over my lvl 70 fabled gear, but that's just how it goes in mmorpgs.

If you were a tank, or hell, most classes I'm intimate with, you were very wrong in this assumption.

When RoK came out, we cleared all of t1 and t2 raid zones in EoF fabled set pieces.

To your question though, since KoS was released its been feasable to do the next tiers raid zones using the previous tiers end gear.  Raiding guilds have come to expect this in terms of raid progression.  The changes proposed invalidate this model and thus there is some crying.

When DoF released it had the same effect as these proposed changes, and there was a conciderable amount of backlash then that all of us fully geared in t5 raid gear were replacing it with t6 cobalt and essentially on the same playing field with the most casual player who couldn't even complete the prismatic line.'

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:21 AM   #18
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Morghus wrote:

Indeed, although there is a very key differenfr from your example and the reality. Would you consider replacing say....the mythical, a legendary time-lost artifact that is in many cases forged for or by demigods and then had its true power unsealed by slaying several powerful beings, with a random legendary or fabled weapon with no background/history or reason for being more powerful....a logical upgrade?

Err, thats exactly what i am saying.......plus it was not my example, i just followed their line of reasoning.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:26 AM   #19
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firza wrote:

Err, thats exactly what i am saying.......plus it was not my example, i just followed their line of reasoning.

Ah yea, I misread. I suppose our examples more or less show how dumb it is then.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:28 AM   #20
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I hate the proposed system because it only exists as a way for SOE to correct their mistakes, mistakes they've continuously been making every single expansion in regards to itemization.

They're only doing this so that lvl 90 items are "better" no matter what and lvl 80 items are "worse" no matter what; that way no matter what decisions they make during itemization they can't mess up.

That is what irritates me.  That and spending 15+ months farming for this gear only to have it become completely worthless 5 days into SF.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:31 AM   #21
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Gage wrote:

I hate the proposed system because it only exists as a way for SOE to correct their mistakes, mistakes they've continuously been making every single expansion in regards to itemization.

They're only doing this so that lvl 90 items are "better" no matter what and lvl 80 items are "worse" no matter what; that way no matter what decisions they make during itemization they can't mess up.

That is what irritates me.  That and spending 15+ months farming for this gear only to have it become completely worthless 5 days into SF.

Yea, I see this as a way for them to shamelessly make level 90/100/110 etc 2.0 versions of various items with only slightly better stats than our current gear because they apparently cant think of other meaningful ways for us to upgrade our characters without capping us in the same expansion a new mechanic is introduced.

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Old 08-13-2009, 11:42 AM   #22
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My biggest issue with what they are going to do is that its based on my level instead of the mob or mobs delta.

If I have Sword X that is currently working well against mobs I currently fight.....it should remain to be just as effective if not more against those  very same mobs as I level up.....not get worse.   Sword X however should become less and less effective as I start engaging new higher and higher level mobs.......thus causing me to seek out a replacement.

Why they brought all these changes to light........8+ months before the expansion is beyond me.  I know my desire/incentive to seek out the harder to get gear pieces has greatly diminished considering I know that most likely on day 1 or 2 of the expansion Ill can probably do some kill X snakes quest and get equal or better.

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Old 08-13-2009, 12:47 PM   #23
circusgirl

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My main issue is that I don't think things should start to degrade immediately, but rather based on whatever level the mob that dropped them is.

For example:

Carotidcutter drops off a level 81 (I think) mob.  This item should start degrading at level 82.Shard armor is obtained using shards from mobs that are generally around level 82 or 83.  Let T1 start degrading at level 83, and T2 at 84.Many T4 patterns usually drop off mobs that are level 85.  These items should start degrading at level 86.Avatar gear drops of mobs that are level 88.  These items shouldn't start degrading until level 89.

This setup would mean that fabled gear, especially high-end raid gear, would take longer to start degrading and only have a couple levels of degradation at level 90 thus allowing it to be used by raiders to break into the next teir.  However, it would still be quickly replaceable once you broke into raiding, and the items that are really problematic like bloodthirsty choker would still be downgraded to next to nothing.

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Old 08-13-2009, 01:07 PM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

My main issue is that I don't think things should start to degrade immediately, but rather based on whatever level the mob that dropped them is.

For example:

Carotidcutter drops off a level 81 (I think) mob.  This item should start degrading at level 82.Shard armor is obtained using shards from mobs that are generally around level 82 or 83.  Let T1 start degrading at level 83, and T2 at 84.Many T4 patterns usually drop off mobs that are level 85.  These items should start degrading at level 86.Avatar gear drops of mobs that are level 88.  These items shouldn't start degrading until level 89.

This setup would mean that fabled gear, especially high-end raid gear, would take longer to start degrading and only have a couple levels of degradation at level 90 thus allowing it to be used by raiders to break into the next teir.  However, it would still be quickly replaceable once you broke into raiding, and the items that are really problematic like bloodthirsty choker would still be downgraded to next to nothing.

If we can't base the item con vs engaged target level, then I favor this sollution.

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Old 08-13-2009, 02:09 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

My main issue is that I don't think things should start to degrade immediately, but rather based on whatever level the mob that dropped them is.

For example:

Carotidcutter drops off a level 81 (I think) mob.  This item should start degrading at level 82.Shard armor is obtained using shards from mobs that are generally around level 82 or 83.  Let T1 start degrading at level 83, and T2 at 84.Many T4 patterns usually drop off mobs that are level 85.  These items should start degrading at level 86.Avatar gear drops of mobs that are level 88.  These items shouldn't start degrading until level 89.

This setup would mean that fabled gear, especially high-end raid gear, would take longer to start degrading and only have a couple levels of degradation at level 90 thus allowing it to be used by raiders to break into the next teir.  However, it would still be quickly replaceable once you broke into raiding, and the items that are really problematic like bloodthirsty choker would still be downgraded to next to nothing.

If we can't base the item con vs engaged target level, then I favor this sollution. 

I must agree, this is both a clever idea and an insightful solution. I still have an issue with gear designed for T8 no longer being effective for T8 mobs based solely on your increasing level, perhaps there can be a tier offset such that gear designed for the tier doesn't degrade on encounters in that teir ( zone based possibly?)

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Old 08-13-2009, 02:17 PM   #26
Morghus

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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

My main issue is that I don't think things should start to degrade immediately, but rather based on whatever level the mob that dropped them is.

For example:

Carotidcutter drops off a level 81 (I think) mob.  This item should start degrading at level 82.Shard armor is obtained using shards from mobs that are generally around level 82 or 83.  Let T1 start degrading at level 83, and T2 at 84.Many T4 patterns usually drop off mobs that are level 85.  These items should start degrading at level 86.Avatar gear drops of mobs that are level 88.  These items shouldn't start degrading until level 89.

This setup would mean that fabled gear, especially high-end raid gear, would take longer to start degrading and only have a couple levels of degradation at level 90 thus allowing it to be used by raiders to break into the next teir.  However, it would still be quickly replaceable once you broke into raiding, and the items that are really problematic like bloodthirsty choker would still be downgraded to next to nothing.

If we can't base the item con vs engaged target level, then I favor this sollution.

Yea, I wouldn't mind there being some kind of level adjustment for degradation based on the difficulty of aquiring the item. T1/2 could have say a +3 adjustment, t3 a +5, and t4 a +7/8 depending on piece maybe (I hate all the shoulder/chest/leg encounters).

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Old 08-13-2009, 02:45 PM   #27
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Proud_Silence wrote:

Has there ever been a lvl increasing expansion where you did not have to completely replace your equipment with the new expansion's loot ? Maybe a few extraordinary pieces from previous tiers exluded (Choker, parry belt pop to mind)

That's not the issue. With the gear scaling that they're implementing, they're increasingly reducing effectiveness as you level. Typically, you could wait and replace items when they clearly were an actual upgrade; now, you're basically forced to replace gear en masse every few levels just to maintain maximum effectiveness.

With item scaling you become less powerful with every new level unless you consistently replace gear with upgrades throughout the entire tier, not just when you hit level 90. And yet the devs have become enamored with this "tear them down so we can build them back up and call it progress" kind of design. It's similar to what they did with TSO and introducing critical mitigation to force gear replacement, but on a much larger scale.

Bottom line, it's the easy fix for a complex problem with itemization. With this change, the devs can take a level 80 item, rename it and change exactly one attribute -- its target level from 80 to 90 -- and declare it to be an "upgrade" when in fact, all it has done is put you back at square one where you're no worse off than you were previously. So why bother actually creating new and interesting items, when you can regurgitate what's already there, bump up the level and call it a day?

So my main issue with all of this is that it's the easy way out; it's a hack to work around a fundamental design problem in both game mechanics and itemization, problems they've created for themselves and I find their attempt at addressing the problem to be uninspired, to say the least.

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Old 08-13-2009, 03:19 PM   #28
Morghus

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Kordran wrote:

Proud_Silence wrote:

Has there ever been a lvl increasing expansion where you did not have to completely replace your equipment with the new expansion's loot ? Maybe a few extraordinary pieces from previous tiers exluded (Choker, parry belt pop to mind)

That's not the issue. With the gear scaling that they're implementing, they're increasingly reducing effectiveness as you level. Typically, you could wait and replace items when they clearly were an actual upgrade; now, you're basically forced to replace gear en masse every few levels just to maintain maximum effectiveness.

With item scaling you become less powerful with every new level unless you consistently replace gear with upgrades throughout the entire tier, not just when you hit level 90. And yet the devs have become enamored with this "tear them down so we can build them back up and call it progress" kind of design. It's similar to what they did with TSO and introducing critical mitigation to force gear replacement, but on a much larger scale.

Bottom line, it's the easy fix for a complex problem with itemization. With this change, the devs can take a level 80 item, rename it and change exactly one attribute -- its target level from 80 to 90 -- and declare it to be an "upgrade" when in fact, all it has done is put you back at square one where you're no worse off than you were previously. So why bother actually creating new and interesting items, when you can regurgitate what's already there, bump up the level and call it a day?

So my main issue with all of this is that it's the easy way out; it's a hack to work around a fundamental design problem in both game mechanics and itemization, problems they've created for themselves and I find their attempt at addressing the problem to be uninspired, to say the least.

Exactly, if we arent going to actually be gaining any kind of real progress they might as well not raise the cap.

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Old 08-13-2009, 03:48 PM   #29
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This has been such a hot topic for a couple months now, I'm surprised that a dev, or even Brenlo as this point, hasn't butted in and made any clarifications.  Because all I'm seeing are upset players with assumptions (educated assumptions, but assumptions nonetheless) about this new system.  Am I missing a wiki page or dev post that is causing all of the frustration or is it just preemptive complaining, something we always see when we get closer to an expansion pack.

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Old 08-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #30
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Potentially being unable to clear content when you ding level 81 that you could at level 80 is epic fail.
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