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Old 07-04-2009, 03:16 AM   #151
Davngr1

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Deson wrote:

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Skwor wrote:

WHY should summoners not be T1 DPS?

IMO, that's a good question. I'd far rather see Summoner DPS boosted significantly, than see another class nerfed. I say this, even tho I'm not getting "nerfed", I'm just having my magikal mit debuff apparently changed to physical mit. That's not a big deal to me.

It is a big deal to my Brig cousins, & even tho I tease them unmercifully, I still don't like seeing them nerfed, because it probably means I'm next

Question I asked elsewhere but is relevant here now:

With all the upcomming changes, why shouldn't all mages and scouts be t1 dps?

why take mages and scouts taht only do T1 dps when you can take mages and and scouts that do T1 dps and buff/debuff?

  that is why.   

   either way ill say it again spreading debuffs across 4 classes is dumb,  2 is more then enough.  

  defensive debuffs =  brig & necro

 offensive debuffs= conj & swash

  this also plays well into their solo ability since conj does not have tainted heals the debuffs would allow for better tank pet survivability and swash that don't have quite the ability to stun lock mobs will also benefit from this.

   but both classes should have pretty much the same debuffs.  you might say, what is to stop a raid force fron taking two brigs like they are now? well a solid raid wide buff will solve that problem.

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Old 07-04-2009, 04:30 AM   #152
Deson

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Davngr1 wrote:

Deson wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Skwor wrote:

WHY should summoners not be T1 DPS?

IMO, that's a good question. I'd far rather see Summoner DPS boosted significantly, than see another class nerfed. I say this, even tho I'm not getting "nerfed", I'm just having my magikal mit debuff apparently changed to physical mit. That's not a big deal to me.

It is a big deal to my Brig cousins, & even tho I tease them unmercifully, I still don't like seeing them nerfed, because it probably means I'm next

Question I asked elsewhere but is relevant here now:

With all the upcomming changes, why shouldn't all mages and scouts be t1 dps?

why take mages and scouts taht only do T1 dps when you can take mages and and scouts that do T1 dps and buff/debuff?

  that is why.   

   either way ill say it again spreading debuffs across 4 classes is dumb,  2 is more then enough.  

  defensive debuffs =  brig & necro

 offensive debuffs= conj & swash

  this also plays well into their solo ability since conj does not have tainted heals the debuffs would allow for better tank pet survivability and swash that don't have quite the ability to stun lock mobs will also benefit from this.

   but both classes should have pretty much the same debuffs.  you might say, what is to stop a raid force fron taking two brigs like they are now? well a solid raid wide buff will solve that problem.

You missed the point. Mages and scouts do DPS. Bards and Illy's may buff, Rogues and Summoners may debuff but when it's said and done post theorized changes it's 1 troub,dirge, coercer, Illy, summoner, rogue, all the other spots are competitive. Beyond back-ups, there will be no reason to have more than one of those classes. Every single dedicated raiding player will be fighting for just that one spot so, how does this do anything more than shift the problem? Your utility slots will drop from 8-9 now to 6 if you count summoners and rogues and the remaining slots will be picked up by dps--assuming guilds don't free up another slot by going all melee or magic dps. At least now pretty much every class currently sought for raiding can compete for more than one slot. The current complaint is that 8-9 slots are currently taken by bards and chanters, how's that substantively different from a complaint that 8-9 slots are all but dedicated to sorcs/preds?

The only way utility classes can compete for another slot is dps so why not drop that idea, spread out/duplicate the utility and make every scout/mage slot competitive?

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Old 07-04-2009, 08:57 AM   #153
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Deson wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

Deson wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Skwor wrote:

WHY should summoners not be T1 DPS?

IMO, that's a good question. I'd far rather see Summoner DPS boosted significantly, than see another class nerfed. I say this, even tho I'm not getting "nerfed", I'm just having my magikal mit debuff apparently changed to physical mit. That's not a big deal to me.

It is a big deal to my Brig cousins, & even tho I tease them unmercifully, I still don't like seeing them nerfed, because it probably means I'm next

Question I asked elsewhere but is relevant here now:

With all the upcomming changes, why shouldn't all mages and scouts be t1 dps?

why take mages and scouts taht only do T1 dps when you can take mages and and scouts that do T1 dps and buff/debuff?

  that is why.   

   either way ill say it again spreading debuffs across 4 classes is dumb,  2 is more then enough.  

  defensive debuffs =  brig & necro

 offensive debuffs= conj & swash

  this also plays well into their solo ability since conj does not have tainted heals the debuffs would allow for better tank pet survivability and swash that don't have quite the ability to stun lock mobs will also benefit from this.

   but both classes should have pretty much the same debuffs.  you might say, what is to stop a raid force fron taking two brigs like they are now? well a solid raid wide buff will solve that problem.

You missed the point. Mages and scouts do DPS. Bards and Illy's may buff, Rogues and Summoners may debuff but when it's said and done post theorized changes it's 1 troub,dirge, coercer, Illy, summoner, rogue, all the other spots are competitive. Beyond back-ups, there will be no reason to have more than one of those classes. Every single dedicated raiding player will be fighting for just that one spot so, how does this do anything more than shift the problem? Your utility slots will drop from 8-9 now to 6 if you count summoners and rogues and the remaining slots will be picked up by dps--assuming guilds don't free up another slot by going all melee or magic dps. At least now pretty much every class currently sought for raiding can compete for more than one slot. The current complaint is that 8-9 slots are currently taken by bards and chanters, how's that substantively different from a complaint that 8-9 slots are all but dedicated to sorcs/preds?

The only way utility classes can compete for another slot is dps so why not drop that idea, spread out/duplicate the utility and make every scout/mage slot competitive?

This, is exactly what i posted my self a few posts back.

Current proposed changes are 1 mutually exclusive to the stated intent of them " we dont want 1 class being a required" you are going to make potentially 4 required, which is patently stupid.

2 : pointless you will simply change from 8 utility to 8 T1 dps class's and atm thats sorcs and preds, make either summoners or rogues T1 dps class's i dont really care which at this point, dont make players lose choice in raid set ups, this is after all the point of your changes right Aeralik? bump one of the current T2 class's into T1 and your problems will be solved.

If you chose to make summoners T1, make sure when you get to rogues, dont bother swapping abilitys about, simply merge the class, take the debuffs and Tenure / safehouse aa's from brigands and double up and add them to Swash, voila everyone is happy.

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Old 07-08-2009, 11:51 AM   #154
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Deson wrote:

You missed the point. Mages and scouts do DPS. Bards and Illy's may buff, Rogues and Summoners may debuff but when it's said and done post theorized changes it's 1 troub,dirge, coercer, Illy, summoner, rogue, all the other spots are competitive. Beyond back-ups, there will be no reason to have more than one of those classes.

Actually, thats not quite correct either.The number of chanters in the raid will probably drop, yes.  But most likely 4 bards will still be needed.The main reason.. 2 dirges needed to maintain near constant CoB and 2 troubs needed to maintain near constant PoM.In addition... I really doubt that dirge Percussion of Stone would go raidwide, so would still need dirge for MT and OT groups.  Coercer Hate Buff/Hate transfer will still be just 1 person.. cause you cant transfer to multiple people.. so may still want 2 coercers in raid.   Dirge hate buff.. think that would be raid wide too?  I'd doubt it.

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Old 07-08-2009, 12:41 PM   #155
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Since it seems so many have decided to answer a question I posed as rheotrical, let me be clear why I posted it.

"Why should summoners not be T1 DPS?" BECAUSE it will kill any use of sorcerers in the raid PERIOD. Conj rock on aoe dps already, making a summoner T1 dps makes sorcerers obsolete becuase with pets THEY WILL ALWAYS out DPS sorcerers, STUNS, FEARS, STIFFLES, choice of melee for those higher resist fights, just so many advantages a pet offers for a T1 DPS class!

Now some people want to make summoners T1 DPS with ALL OF THOSE ADVANTAGES AND NO DISADVANTAGES A SORCERER HAS. With a pet you are more effective against STUNS, STIFFLES, FEARS and a host of other raid obsticales, obsticales that bring sorcerer DPS to it's knees when encountered.

T1 DPS is absolutly wrong for summoners. All it will do is remove 2 classes, sorcerers, and replace them with summoners. This is a no brainer and anyone not seeing this is either completely ignorant of how the game currently works or is dishonest.

This idea is even worse becuase at least summoners have some funtioning utility compared to sorcerers, now summoners would have that minimum utility, T1 DPS, and more sustainable T1 DPS. Gee that just makes perfect sense, lets make it even harder for sorcerers than summmoners ever had it by making sorcerers more useless than some percieve summoners to be right now.

This is what some of you call a FIX?!! Again you are either clueless about how the game works or have another motive. This makes no sense at all.

Also someone explain to my why some think we only need 2 debuff classes and we need 6 or more dps classes? WE NEED MORE DEBUFF CLASSES! Sorry but the issues have been the utlity and debuffs not a shortage of DPS clases for raids., Not having a Brigand on new content stops a raid cold, not having ONE OF THE T1 DPS CLASSES REPRESENTED DOES NOT! We need more debuffers to aviod this bottleneck, not less. One of the mage classes needs to get the debuff for magics and leave the melee debuffing to a melee class. This makes sense and reduces the bottleneck. This is a good fit for summoners.

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Old 07-08-2009, 02:55 PM   #156
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Zilth wrote:

Deson wrote:

You missed the point. Mages and scouts do DPS. Bards and Illy's may buff, Rogues and Summoners may debuff but when it's said and done post theorized changes it's 1 troub,dirge, coercer, Illy, summoner, rogue, all the other spots are competitive. Beyond back-ups, there will be no reason to have more than one of those classes.

Actually, thats not quite correct either.The number of chanters in the raid will probably drop, yes.  But most likely 4 bards will still be needed.The main reason.. 2 dirges needed to maintain near constant CoB and 2 troubs needed to maintain near constant PoM.In addition... I really doubt that dirge Percussion of Stone would go raidwide, so would still need dirge for MT and OT groups.  Coercer Hate Buff/Hate transfer will still be just 1 person.. cause you cant transfer to multiple people.. so may still want 2 coercers in raid.   Dirge hate buff.. think that would be raid wide too?  I'd doubt it.

If they do things the way you are laying out then the idea is a fail waiting to happen.  I based my presumption on everything going raidwide( targettable)  because that's the only thing that's going to reduce the number of chanter and bard slots. Once everything is targettable, the second utility class contribution has to add up to at least close to what just adding another   will.

Skwor wrote:

Since it seems so many have decided to answer a question I posed as rheotrical, let me be clear why I posted it.

"Why should summoners not be T1 DPS?" BECAUSE it will kill any use of sorcerers in the raid PERIOD. Conj rock on aoe dps already, making a summoner T1 dps makes sorcerers obsolete becuase with pets THEY WILL ALWAYS out DPS sorcerers, STUNS, FEARS, STIFFLES, choice of melee for those higher resist fights, just so many advantages a pet offers for a T1 DPS class!

Now some people want to make summoners T1 DPS with ALL OF THOSE ADVANTAGES AND NO DISADVANTAGES A SORCERER HAS. With a pet you are more effective against STUNS, STIFFLES, FEARS and a host of other raid obsticales, obsticales that bring sorcerer DPS to it's knees when encountered.

T1 DPS is absolutly wrong for summoners. All it will do is remove 2 classes, sorcerers, and replace them with summoners. This is a no brainer and anyone not seeing this is either completely ignorant of how the game currently works or is dishonest.

This idea is even worse becuase at least summoners have some funtioning utility compared to sorcerers, now summoners would have that minimum utility, T1 DPS, and more sustainable T1 DPS. Gee that just makes perfect sense, lets make it even harder for sorcerers than summmoners ever had it by making sorcerers more useless than some percieve summoners to be right now.

This is what some of you call a FIX?!! Again you are either clueless about how the game works or have another motive. This makes no sense at all.

Also someone explain to my why some think we only need 2 debuff classes and we need 6 or more dps classes? WE NEED MORE DEBUFF CLASSES! Sorry but the issues have been the utlity and debuffs not a shortage of DPS clases for raids., Not having a Brigand on new content stops a raid cold, not having ONE OF THE T1 DPS CLASSES REPRESENTED DOES NOT! We need more debuffers to aviod this bottleneck, not less. One of the mage classes needs to get the debuff for magics and leave the melee debuffing to a melee class. This makes sense and reduces the bottleneck. This is a good fit for summoners.

We answered it. We also attached conditions to it that nullify alot of you argument.  Do you actually play a pet class? Because some of your stated advantages aren't really advantages and if you are arguing summoners have more raid useful utitilty than sorcs that's been debunked more times than enough. Further, if you want to argue that we need more debuff classes the you should be arguing for summoners to just get dispatch since the change as proposed encourages single damage type raid configs and requires you to have a summoner and  a rogue instead of just a brig now.

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Old 07-08-2009, 03:04 PM   #157
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Deson wrote:

if you are arguing summoners have more raid useful utitilty than sorcs that's been debunked more times than enough.

As a sorcerer, I can't see how anyone can thing summoners have more utility.

Hearts and shards were decient utility in T5 - T7, but practically useless in T8. Pets were originally slated as a form of summoner utility (this is something I would actually like to see), but pet pulling was the only thing they were ever able to do, and templars were able to do that better in T7 anyway (they don't lose a significant portion of their DPS by pulling with their pet).

Frigid Gift is more utility than what a summoner offers.

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Old 07-08-2009, 04:11 PM   #158
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The only lone summoner utility that matters is necro rez, which is actually strong on power-check fights like Anashti. But that's pretty specific and doesn't make up for the vast amount of suck otherwise.

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Old 07-08-2009, 05:04 PM   #159
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snip snip

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Old 07-09-2009, 06:36 AM   #160
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Lots of people here are thinking they will give us something to make up for the loss of our magical debuff.

But I didn't read anything like that, just a futur mix of debuff and capacities between swash and brigand...

They have already took lots from brigand and barely gave us something in return ^^ My raid is full of magical dps, where will be my place if this nerf go through? They can give this part of the debuff to summoners without removing it from brigands and raid leaders will be able to choose which one take functions of their needs.

Buffing one classe by taking away from another it's the dumbest thing I have ever seen...

(and yes, I choose to play brigand for the last 5 years because I love debuffing and the stun abilities... Else I will have roll an assassin ;p)

ps: sorry for my poor english ^^

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Old 07-09-2009, 12:36 PM   #161
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Seems like the dev consensus is that in a raid setting, a Brig is too powerful (read: desired), and summoners aren't powerful enough (read: desired at all). This move is an attempt to shift some of that desirability.

Do summoners deserve to feel wanted on raids? Sure, their 15 bucks a month is just as good as everyone else's.

Does it suck to be a Brig, and lose more effectiveness? Yeah, it will.

One poster mentioned that early on, the intent for rogues was to help transport a group of a raid. Why not create some sort of cool raid transport ability that can only be accomplished by a rogue AND a summoner? Perhaps some sort of raidwide evac to a chosen safe point, that grabs living players AND corpses? Sure, it would have to be looked at carefully so as to not hand players something they could use to exploit (maybe make it only useable in combat, or out of combat, etc).

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Old 07-09-2009, 12:50 PM   #162
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jaguarjp wrote:

Seems like the dev consensus is that in a raid setting, a Brig is too powerful (read: desired), and summoners aren't powerful enough (read: desired at all). This move is an attempt to shift some of that desirability.

Actually, the exact comment I heard from devs was:

"Raids are too penalized if no Brigand is available.  We'd like to make it so that any rogue would suffice and not penalize the entire raid for a missing class."

Simply put, the differential of a raidwide dps, particularly the higher up the content tree you go is too signficant for one class.  Spreading it out between several archtypes allows for more leniancy in which classes are available on a given night and still remaining an effective raid force.

Conceptially, I'm 100% for these changes for the same reasons.

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Old 07-09-2009, 02:05 PM   #163
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By that thinking they should level out all tanks too.  

I'm not completely against the brig change, I just want something in return. Maybe some kinda proc on the CAs that lose the magic debuff.  Interesting most summoners I talked to just wanted pets to survive and more DPS.

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Old 07-09-2009, 02:05 PM   #164
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[email protected] wrote:

jaguarjp wrote:

Seems like the dev consensus is that in a raid setting, a Brig is too powerful (read: desired), and summoners aren't powerful enough (read: desired at all). This move is an attempt to shift some of that desirability.

Actually, the exact comment I heard from devs was:

"Raids are too penalized if no Brigand is available.  We'd like to make it so that any rogue would suffice and not penalize the entire raid for a missing class."

Simply put, the differential of a raidwide dps, particularly the higher up the content tree you go is too signficant for one class.  Spreading it out between several archtypes allows for more leniancy in which classes are available on a given night and still remaining an effective raid force.

Conceptially, I'm 100% for these changes for the same reasons.

Which is pure and utter nonsense, there are several class's that totally penalize your raid if there not online : Defilers/Templars/Dirges/Troubs/Coercers/Illus, Brigands do not fall into this cat at all, there are enough debuffs in a raid to cap out a mobs debuff caps, thing is most people do not use them, Brigands are a convienence class, instead of you waitng for 3 class's to get there debuffs onto a mob, you can have 1 do it, thats all the diff is, time.

There is not 1 single encounter in eq2 that will fail without a Brigand in it, the casual raid force i raid with t(they raid 2 days Sat/Sun) killed Gynok this weekend with no brigand in the raid 1min30secs faster than they have ever managed it with one in the raid. they also did the same to penta, killed penta in 3mins20secs with no brigand, previous best time was 4mins30secs, so this fallacy of raids cant perform without a brigands....is just that, a fallacy.

And if these changes do go live, and they give swash's the same debuffs brigands have, they better up brigands Single target dps a lot, they also better give Brigands equivalent AoE dps as swashys, AA's, Self Buffs, or ill simply betray my Brigand, a class ive played since Dof, into the new Super Brigand, Read Swash. and im sure i wont be the only one, and before anyone starts with the Amazing reflexs rubbish, Aoes 1 dont mean jack when you have 20k hps, they also ignore AR, and mobs that dont have aoes that ignore AR have damage shields that make your CA's miss, so you are totally dependent on a healer whack a mole spam curing you to even proc it reliably.

I Guess its time for some class consolidation, they are going to loose subs if they make the changes proposed as they are currently, im guessing they may save some of them if they merge Swash and Brigands, taking the best of the 2 class's and making 1 class out of it. it would also not make a mockery of there we dont want to make raids require 1 class, cos atm changing 1 class into 4 is making 4 class's required.

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