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Old 10-26-2015, 03:36 AM   #31
Dreadtalon

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Savagery certainly is A problem, but not necessarily one that, if fixed, would bring the Beastlord any closer to the forefront of T1 DPS. Even with current blanket changes to CA's, we're still not any closer to the *forefront*, especially when other scouts received the same blanket changes (plus or minus a few CA tweaks here and there) thereby negating any real boost to the BL class.

I mean, it's nice my parse has gone up several million DPS, but that's not even close to what is needed for this class to be desirable in a raid setting.

Adding even more DPS to one of the most Hate generating classes in game - and offering no tools to deal with a mobs increased attention - is just another nail in the coffin.

In addition to all of the usual BL's problems still being an issue, we have a new expansion that is littered with objects on the ground that further prevent ease of movement, making it even more difficult to find a mob's behind to keep spamming those Advantages for Savagery level 6, and as anyone that plays a BL knows, any Advantage or Primal that is worth it's salt has a Stealth and or Flanking requirement. (No, the new Neutral deity power will not help this, not at all).

I spend WAY too much time running around trying to find a mob's back to attack while pure casters just sit there and pew pew pew, sizzle, sizzle, sizzle, their way to the top of the parse - all while offering an excess of 100% to 1000% more useful and/or powerful utility over what a Beastlord can bring.

Since there have been no real meaningful changes to the Beastlord class for this expansion, it's looking more and more like we're going to get our *boost / fix* with the prestige items, which is the worst possible idea.

Dreadtalon, a Freetard of Freeport
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Old 10-26-2015, 04:09 AM   #32
Dreadtalon

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---
It's too bad that we can see the math. By this, I mean the Beastlord has been so neglected for so long, they've basically *forced* us into the Spam method of DPS.

Bee-cuz:

Timing stacks of Feral intes. / Feral Ramp / Savagery lvl 6, along with mob movement + mob detriments (i.e: Stun, Stifle, Knockback, or just a plain ol' case of "Hey, I'm going to become unattackable for 15 seconds to deliver some pointless dialogue in the heat of battle), and/or ranged fights (which may, or may not allow a BL to run in, do a Primal Chain, and run back out) has made it impossible to keep a "hold" Primal pattern going - which again pushes the Beastlord further down the parse spiral.

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Old 10-26-2015, 04:51 AM   #33
Koko

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I'll concede incredibly difficult/unreasonable, but not impossible in most encounters. e.g. Quorox (sp?) is incredibly difficult and I wouldn't expect players to be able to do it, the first fight in RoM is impossible (with expected RNG).

(This expansion's...) "nail in the coffin" to the BL class is the addition of ethereals.
It is way easier//possible to routinely cast FFU during a bow ethereal/2x damage procs
Shadow reset is stupid
Resets don't restore savagery (does it even reset primals for this to matter? does anyone care?)

tl;dr Beastlords are bad. This expansion they got worse. No one is surprised.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:57 PM   #34
Karsa

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Hope to finally get onto beta this week but if any of that ^^^^^ is true gonna be real sad. I would hope that in the 'quest' to fix beastlords that ethereal effects are taken into account also with increase to potency and other stats that 'hemotoxin damage' will increase as well. Hemotoxin and shadow (reset) will present a huge amount damage that the 'fix' will need to overcome. If it's not possible to give beastlords 'a shadow' or 'a rampage of swarm pets like undead horde' then increasing the 5% base to help make up the differential maybe strongly needed.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:39 PM   #35
Errrorr

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When are we likely to see Utility classes (Bards) given the Utility that was mentioned in the previous stream?

As it stands, bards are in for a pretty heavy nerf this expansion, and definitely need something to counteract that.
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:17 AM   #36
Trakanom

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The bug with finisher and hemotoxin seems to be fixed on beta, lowering its (max) dps by maybe 300-500%, btw!
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Old 10-27-2015, 11:21 AM   #37
Mark John

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How is it possible to routinely cast FFU chains during ethereal bow proc? My understanding is those procs are random, is that incorrect? And if so,say even if you had an ACT trigger that would notify you after the proc has occurred you still couldn't cast anything coincidentally. So it seems that the dps-rotation would just proceed normally and the proc timing would be RNG-related?
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:38 PM   #38
Koko

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The proc is semi-random, it can be manipulated. The ethereal items have an internal cooldown that resets whenever the item is reset (e.g. equipped, player res'd, etc.) or triggers.
It is relatively simple to make an ACT timer that displays "next proc in X seconds" after the initial trigger to enable players to "watch for it," and FFU is favored over a primal burst in this scenario. To name a few:
  • FFU is faster to execute than a primal burst
    • Primal bursts is "held back" by primal savagery cost, and the cooldown/cast time on blindside/stealth
  • FFU timing is not dependent on transient effects
    • Primal burst damage is directly tied to savagery/feral rampage stacks, the later is refreshed by primal combat arts and "dropping" feral rampage equates to a 120% damage loss on primal abilities. Once the first primal is cast, the interval for all successive primals is "set"
  • FFU can be cast "out of the box"
    • Primal Burst requires 6 stacks of feral rampage + full savagery, which suggests that the encounter is "stagnant" for the past 30+ seconds (more for syncing feral intensity). The beastlord can't die, there can be limited jousts/movement/turning, etc. Exceptionally skilled/borderline clairvoyant players can mitigate these to some degree, but the last time I tried to coordinate around them my playgroup didn't like it (i.e. I described as, and I quote, "a raging ****")
tl;dr because primal bursts are greatly structured, cast slowly, and "unreliable", coordinating it with an ethereal proc is... unreasonable. Alternatively, FFU can be held until the proc occurs. This is simply one method, of many, that ethereals killed beat the dead horse that are beastlords.
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:55 PM   #39
Karsa

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Sad but true.. Devs have about 20 days to make some big changes hopefully there will be aces not jokers we get dealt. Maybe bring back pet proccing ..Smile
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Old 10-27-2015, 02:40 PM   #40
Nkito

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Eventually we will have this game filtered down to where we all gear and spec the same, with similar playstyles. Remove enough diversity and only differences we'll have left are the names of the spells we're casting. People want poison removed, autoattack reduced to less than pet damage, fc mutilated to remove spike damage in the name of "fairness".

Use what is available to the best of your ability, fight to increase the shortcomings of your favorite class, or if you don't feel like fighting then maybe roll an alt and see if the grass is truly greener for yourself. I'd have to think devs see what classes are popularly played and that lets them know where to look for shortcomings. But this perpetual habit of saying xyz is overpowered please nerf will just make this a more boring place to be. We already see it in the new caps.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:09 PM   #41
Estarion

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Actually new diety bless Trickster's Mockery would help to manage stealth attacks, but only if it will stacks into multiple increments that can be pulled in raid/hard heroic fight. Now it maintain only one and puting more tithe point is waste. Hope it's a bug nor intended.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:14 PM   #42
Karsa

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Aa ability pack's ferocity seems bugged total aoe stat is low and in the same tree the weapon skills is bugged as well
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:42 PM   #43
Estarion

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Another bugs that should have been fixed long time ago is 5 and 6 slot AA primals
Devour is still somehow healing an enemy!
[IMG]
Feral Charge is still unable to cast while moving. Why? It's not a spell.
And our self buff is still cripple compared to any other scout self buff.
[IMG]
No base avoidance No agi buff. And all magic mitigation disparity by 3.3k. It's almost 2 superior resilience adornments by type or 3 prismatic. Why that?
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:48 PM   #44
Ruckus

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Swashbucklers used to be a popular class, then when it became obvious that brigands brought more to a raid, nearly everyone betrayed from swashbuckler to brigand. If they put some time into a little revamping of the swashbuckler class, and gave us something that was deemed to be "raid worthy" you'd see brigands going back to being swashbucklers.
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Old 10-27-2015, 06:22 PM   #45
Kaladz

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I agree that swashbuckler's need something else to bring to a raid. Marauder's Vaunt was a nice start in that direction, but ultimately not a big impact in raids. I'd love to see some additional changes to the swashbuckler class to improve their raid worth.
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Old 10-27-2015, 07:31 PM   #46
Arco

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Is fixing some swash offensive debuffs, so they're relevant/useful again, hard or time consuming?

I could easily see swash being wanted in raid, if their debuffs actually made some sort of difference in tank or raid survivability...
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Old 10-27-2015, 11:37 PM   #47
Karsa

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don't need your poisons unless they are gonna do massive over-all to beast-lords aa to support poisons, really don't care if poisons are hitting for 12 mill or 200 mill as long devs can balance the beast-lords ca's to keep up...sides need my plat for infusions & shineys...not to buy poisons....Smile
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:17 AM   #48
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I don't think it is possible to balance Swash debuffs in a sustainable way. Reason i say this is if you consider a new raid encounter (say at the start of an xpac or new raid zone for an improving guild) the Swash debuffs may be helpful to aid tank/raid survivability. However, once the guild in that situation 'gears up' and can more easily survive, the Swash debuffs decrease in value or become outright unnecessary. In contrast, Brig debuffs allow more raid dps so are always valuable.

So in summary, Swash debuffs may be valuable sometimes, but will lose value vs a specific encounter over time for an improving guild.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:53 AM   #49
Bunshin

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... Why not just homogenize both rogues... The AA's for both rogues are mostly offensive debuffs (traumatic swipe, coule, thieving essence) so brigs are doing the swashbuckler's job in the first place. Swash class debuffs aren't that much compared to the AA debuffs, so just create the AA's for offensive debuffs for both rogues and make both rogues debuff similar things. Play style will be the diffrence bewteen the two classes ... (nod to bumping swash dps to be on par with brigs(and then rogues to be on par with summoners....)
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:05 AM   #50
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Well considering we have seen no signs of any balancing for Swashies, I am beginning to doubt much of anything is coming soon. I will hang in there, but God is it painful.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:24 AM   #51
Arco

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Progression.
Guilds are always pushing progression... Sure, the swash would lose some of it's usefulness after you've over-geared the content... but every time you try to push further in content, if the swash helps raid survivability, guilds would desire a swash.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:34 AM   #52
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Dirge perspective:

CB 3k cap, at current level and stats will not really have any effect. I probably hover somewhere around 2k during raids. However, with expansion gear don't know how much higher stats will go, so this can have a negative impact on the class later on if we are indeed able to reach the 3k stat cap.

WDB 300 cap, this will be the biggest hit. I get well over 300 in current raids, so auto attack will be effected immediately upon expansion release. We currently rely on our auto attack to be our main source of DPS, in fact, around 60% on most fights. This will also greatly impact RO/VC. I understand that you want to lower this and bring CA dmg to be more relevant. I understand that... might also create more separation between the players, but that brings me to the next part...

30% CA increase, this has barely any effect on dirges. The reason I say that is because dirge abilities have horrible base damage. Horrible base damage + 30% = little less horrible damage. Our CA's would have to have an increase a lot greater than 30% to make up for the loss of auto attack. The other downside to this is server lag. In 1 of the raid zones tonight, the lag was so bad I could only cast 1 CA between auto attacks, even doing that my auto attack was still being delayed sometimes.

You also have to take into account the other functions of playing a dirge. Rezzing, confront fear, debuffs, gravitas, sonic barrier. The only thing keeping our DPS to a decent level while still performing all these abilities was the fact that our auto attack was hitting hard. Taking that away and still performing our duties will impact our overall DPS even more.

Couple suggestions:

Combining the 4 green debuffs down to 2
Increase the accepted dps during RO from 6% to 8-10%
Lower casting time of group rez so that it casts between 1 auto attack with a 4sec weapon at max haste
Increase CA dmg a lot more than 30%
Don't cap WDB
Don't cap CB


Bonus:
Even though not really important, left side prestige tree Infectious Dissonance is broken. Submitted DGC ticket awhile ago.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:36 AM   #53
Annabea

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BLs stance added pet buff doesnt seem to do anything currently, tooltip says it increases pets attributes by 300%, but doesnt seem to add a single point of stats to it.

Also cant seem to find anything i can tame as a warder despite the live stream saying Fathomlurkers would be available, is it quest gated like Insect or just not enabled yet?
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:03 AM   #54
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I find it pretty discerning that there is one meaningful post regarding the huge decrease to poison numbers which directly effects 4 classes but there's a dozen pages about the 4 active beastlords playing. Don't mess with poisons, just let beaslords use'em
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:36 AM   #55
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My bl has been parked since early tov but if I remember correctly it seemed the biggest complaint from a recent beastlord thread revolved around the complete uselessness of spiritual stance. Is that approach being abandoned in favor of a one dimensional dps increase?
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:14 AM   #56
Awesomeo

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How much is 300% of sod all? Can someone work that out for me please? Smile
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:20 PM   #57
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I just dont understand why people care so much for such a small disparity. Yea, brigs bring more and offer a bit more to the raid, but that doesn't make swash useless or BAD. I don't know why people just dont play which one they like best =
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:48 PM   #58
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I've played a swashy since launch. Just about every guild I've been in over the past 6 years have had a brigand. One brigand was awesome. The others flaked on us and stopped showing up or stopped caring to gear their toon up properly.

My current guild's raid progression was at a standstill until someone switched their main to a brigand. Progression pretty much instantly happened on a few mobs as soon as that happened. I knew that by not going brigand years ago, I was not helping my guilds by being stubborn by not betraying to a brigand.

I've been waiting for over a year now with these empty promises of them "fixing scouts". By ONLY bumping up the amount of damage that my combat arts can do does me nothing to "justify" staying a swashbuckler. I just ask that my debuffs do something that makes a difference...like what a brigand can do to a raid force.

Either they don't have time to fiddle with making this class "raid worthy" or nobody cares.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:59 PM   #59
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At this rate, I'd be happy with these suggestions.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:19 PM   #60
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Most raid groups are trying to do the hardest content they can manage. You only have a limited amount of slots so trying to get the most out of each slot means you can handle harder content. If you have the luxury of drawing enough players that you can demand certain classes, you'll go for the ones that give the most benefit.

Damage is nice, but damage isn't everything. To make a successful raid you have to consider utility too. Unfortunately the utility swashbuckler's bring to a raid is questionable. In general they provide as much utility as an assassin and less DPS. Or they bring nearly the same DPS as a Brig but much less desirable debuffs.

That still makes them better than Beastlords who don't bring top DPS, can't provide meaningful utility and actually cause agro problems without being better than any other scout class at DPS.

I can sympathize a little with the bards because the stat they push for DPS is getting nerfed. That said they aren't going to loose a raid spot because of that. Nobody brings a bard for their awesome DPS, they bring them for the awesome utility they provide. Still if Bards really feel that they need to contribute more DPS why not ask for poison to be extended to all scouts? That would more than make up for the loss of auto attack damage.
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