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Old 02-13-2012, 06:44 AM   #1
Nynaeve

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hello guys!

A rating system with only LIKE buttons only works in environments where you have millions of users like on Youtube.In a so limited environment like an EQ2 server the LIKE system is too easily exploitable - much more so than a rating system with a scale from 1 to 5.

Best example: just check the Leaderboard on the Freeport Server:

There's a TOTALLY EMPTY house at #1 since weeks - the only things inside are a few sales-crates. And the house is of course nothing but an advertising scheme for a large guild on the server (which I can't name here).

So, please SOE change back to a rating system with 1-5, so people have at least a chance to downvote such lame advertising without any creativity, and maybe something more interesting gets to #1.

Another nice change would be to allow the owner to at least change 5 items per week - this won't change the overall design of the house anyway and is less annoying because you aren't completely locked out from putting new trophies there or improving slightly.

Thanks!

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Old 02-13-2012, 07:00 AM   #2
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I don't think there is a perfect solution. Personally, I'd go with a judge's panel on each server, but that's more work for SOE to manage and pick people, and then of course people will accuse those people of playing favorites.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #3
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Nynaeve wrote:

There's a TOTALLY EMPTY house at #1 since weeks - the only things inside are a few sales-crates. And the house is of course nothing but an advertising scheme for a large guild on the server (which I can't name here).

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

By the way, I admire the cleverness of this guild, using this as an advertising scheme. 

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Old 02-13-2012, 10:30 AM   #4
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The other way of voting had flaws as well.  I don't think there is a way to make it work by changing voting. 

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Old 02-13-2012, 10:56 AM   #5
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Nolrog wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

There's a TOTALLY EMPTY house at #1 since weeks - the only things inside are a few sales-crates. And the house is of course nothing but an advertising scheme for a large guild on the server (which I can't name here).

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

By the way, I admire the cleverness of this guild, using this as an advertising scheme. 

It's not clever by any stretch. Thanks to people like the ones in this guild online rating systems of any kind are basically useless since you have to distinquish proper votes from the ones coming from the maker's cohorts or their competition.

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:16 AM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

There's a TOTALLY EMPTY house at #1 since weeks - the only things inside are a few sales-crates. And the house is of course nothing but an advertising scheme for a large guild on the server (which I can't name here).

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

By the way, I admire the cleverness of this guild, using this as an advertising scheme. 

It's not clever by any stretch. Thanks to people like the ones in this guild online rating systems of any kind are basically useless since you have to distinquish proper votes from the ones coming from the maker's cohorts or their competition.

So how do you do that then? Simply going from likes to stars instead going to solve it.

And I would disagree about it being clever if they are operating completely within the rules to achieve whatever goal they have.

Maybe they actually like empty houses? Maybe they are doing it as a protest against the the way the game has turned into dress me up barbie/better homes and gardens? In either case, unless they are breaking the rules, their REASON for voting whichever way they do is irrelevant.

Personally...I wish someone on Butcherblock would set up a bunch of empty houses and let us go vote on them so we could get them to the top. I LIKE an empty house... probably means the person is spending more time actually palying the game.

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:40 AM   #7
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Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,while with the LIKE system you can't do anything, just LIKE or not vote for the house. And thus the only way drop the above example in the ratings would be if 36 users would Like the same other house(s).

Therefore the chances that you can get rid of such a scam are much better in a 5-star rating system.

You can of course also try your tricks with a ranged rating system, but it takes a lot more work and constant involvement.

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:52 AM   #8
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Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,

If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:53 AM   #9
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Raknid wrote:

I LIKE an empty house... probably means the person is spending more time actually palying the game.

People who enjoy decorating houses are "playing the game," even if you don't care for the way they're playing.

An empty house doesn't mean anything other than "I don't decorate houses," at which point you have to wonder why the person bothers maintaining a house in the first place.

I loathe the rating system, think it's a waste of time, don't bother paying attention to it, & wouldn't care regardless of what worthless system is put in place to rate houses, dungeons, guildhalls, or whatever else. I don't play this game for popularity; I very much like the way my own house is decorated, but I don't "publish" it because I couldn't care less about anyone else's opinion.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:07 PM   #10
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Raknid wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,

If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?

the chances that more people like (vote up) the same other house are pretty slim to none (and they would have to do it on several houses) - compared to the chance that people would downvote the #1 place that doesnt deserve it at all.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #11
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Nynaeve wrote:

Raknid wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,

If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?

the chances that more people like (vote up) the same other house are pretty slim to none - compared to the chance that people would downvote the #1 place that doesnt deserve it at all.

I was using your example/numbers..and you didn't answer the question.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:21 PM   #12
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Raknid wrote:

I was using your example/numbers..and you didn't answer the question.

I answered your question. it's your problem if you cant understand my answer.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:22 PM   #13
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I gave one 'like' for that house.  I like empty houses and I thought it was amusing to see an empty house at the top of the list.  Most houses are nothing more than clutter.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:25 PM   #14
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Are you just sad your house did not make #1 ?

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:29 PM   #15
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Nynaeve wrote:

Raknid wrote:

I was using your example/numbers..and you didn't answer the question.

I answered your question. it's your problem if you cant understand my answer.

I missed the yes or no then?

"If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?"

You are suggesting 200 people would take an action to an end result but then saying 36 people wouldn't?

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #16
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Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,while with the LIKE system you can't do anything, just LIKE or not vote for the house. And thus the only way drop the above example in the ratings would be if 36 users would Like the same other house(s).

So it's not a like/dislike system.  It's like versus nothing.  So the 200 dislikes would have to all like the same other thing in order to bump that down.  Got you.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:49 PM   #17
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[email protected] wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

There's a TOTALLY EMPTY house at #1 since weeks - the only things inside are a few sales-crates. And the house is of course nothing but an advertising scheme for a large guild on the server (which I can't name here).

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

By the way, I admire the cleverness of this guild, using this as an advertising scheme. 

It's not clever by any stretch. Thanks to people like the ones in this guild online rating systems of any kind are basically useless since you have to distinquish proper votes from the ones coming from the maker's cohorts or their competition.

They found a way to use this system to benefit their guild in a way that wasn't planned when the system was designed (but is no way an exploit).  They outsmarted the system and gained a guild benefit.  It's absolutely clever.  

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Old 02-13-2012, 01:33 PM   #18
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Give me the ability to hide a particular house (or publisher) from the list and I won't care how many "Likes" it gets. "Wow, this place is just a lame guild advertisement. /hide"

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Old 02-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #19
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 They can change the rules to say it must be decorated to be published. Then when someone goes in, sees an empty house or hardly decorated at all house they can report it and have it unpublished. Not hard at all.

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Old 02-13-2012, 04:51 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

 They can change the rules to say it must be decorated to be published. Then when someone goes in, sees an empty house or hardly decorated at all house they can report it and have it unpublished. Not hard at all.

You actually think that would work?

What definition would you use for decorated? How easy would it be to meet that definition?

Might buy that if you can explain the mechanics of it a little more.

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Old 02-13-2012, 05:09 PM   #21
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Personally, Like/Dislike or vote system wouldn't matter to me.

I'd Like/5 Star the example given by the poster, as to me it's a perfect design. The main reason I go to somoene's house is to buy from them. If a house has

a) the rent paid, so I can go there

b) sales crates, so I can avoid the broker fee by going there

and

c) a simple, clean layout. Loads easily and quickly, easy to find the important things (sales crate).

So, the example is pretty much the perfect house. I'd upvote it a lot more than I would a "beautiful" cluttered, slowly loading, full of stuff "show house".

--Nibs

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Old 02-13-2012, 05:13 PM   #22
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 First the house has to have so many items, then it has to be arranged I am sure people can tell if a house is decorated or not. The goal here would be to get people from wasting other peoples time. If you zoned into a house its number one and it only has 5 items in it then it shouldnt qualify should it?! Just throwing out suggestions without making it complicated.

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Old 02-13-2012, 05:20 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

 First the house has to have so many items, then it has to be arranged I am sure people can tell if a house is decorated or not. The goal here would be to get people from wasting other peoples time. If you zoned into a house its number one and it only has 5 items in it then it shouldnt qualify should it?! Just throwing out suggestions without making it complicated.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalism

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Old 02-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #24
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I think that it would be better to have more categories to separate the houses out...maybe even some self selected ones.  And saying that people could vote down empty houses doesn't solve the problem.   People who vote for empty houses could vote down decorated ones.

I think more categories for houses and a way to have more description of what you are looking at would help.

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Old 02-13-2012, 10:26 PM   #25
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Raknid wrote:

I missed the yes or no then?

"If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?"

You are suggesting 200 people would take an action to an end result but then saying 36 people wouldn't?

in the LIKE system, where #1 has 35 LIKES, you would need 36 people to LIKE houses #2-#10 to put the current #1 at #10. 36 x 9 = 324 LIKES to the other houses in the current Top 10.

This is very unlikely to happen, because people usually check out the top ranking house only, and then maybe 2 others at max.

So, to satisfy you, yes you could put the "scam" #1 house to #2 if 36 people gave #2 a LIKE, but this is much more unlikely to happen than if these people had the option to give the #1 house the worst rating right away - which would drop it to below #10 much quicker.

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Old 02-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #26
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Raknid wrote:

Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,

If only 18% of those 200 liked a different house it would move the "offending" house down the list no?

It doesnt make a lot of difference which system is used, because the people wanting to up that house would vote down the others, ensuring it stayed up there, or will mass like this one, or whill game whatever system is in place. 

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Old 02-14-2012, 02:31 AM   #27
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Nynaeve wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

I'm assuming that this guild had all their members like this.  How is that different than having all their members give it 5 stars?  

The difference is that in a 1-5 voting system the rest of the users can downvote an obvious fraud like this, so 35 5-star ratings vs 200 1-star ratings will drop it in the list,while with the LIKE system you can't do anything, just LIKE or not vote for the house. And thus the only way drop the above example in the ratings would be if 36 users would Like the same other house(s).

Therefore the chances that you can get rid of such a scam are much better in a 5-star rating system.

You can of course also try your tricks with a ranged rating system, but it takes a lot more work and constant involvement.

People paid others to give a five star vote.

It didn't solve anything. In fact, the bribed and inflated star votes is why they removed them.

20 bucks says that guild is using that house for transportation. It's what I do with my one alts house. All my apprentices, paintings, guild door and mirrors are in there. As well as beds, crafting stations, tables, books and a cozy fire. SMILEY I keep my sweat shop cared for.

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Old 02-14-2012, 03:00 AM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

It doesnt make a lot of difference which system is used, because the people wanting to up that house would vote down the others, ensuring it stayed up there, or will mass like this one, or whill game whatever system is in place. 

it makes a huge difference, because the LIKE system only requires a one-time voting of guildmembers to push up their house, while a 1-5 rated system requires constant involvement, checking of the current Top-10, and downvoting lots of other houses. Because it takes much more effort - chances are pretty good that many guildmembers wouldn't care anymore to keep their house on top, and not push it up (by having to downvote lots of other new houses).

summary: Like only takes a one time effort, while the other method requires constant downvoting - much more work, and thus much harder to do a scam.

Honest guildmembers would also feel guilty to downvote a good competitor, so you shouldn't forget peoples conscience - some have one I hear.

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Old 02-14-2012, 03:15 AM   #29
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adding a DISLIKE (-1) button to the current system could also keep scams at bay a bit.

currently you can only LIKE (+1) or clear your vote (called dislike, but amounts to no vote: +-0).

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Old 02-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #30
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I think the fact that the TOP rated house on Freeport server having only 35 likes says alot about the entire rating system.  Very few people like it and they all think they should be at #1.

If you want to be #1, get more than 35 likes.  If you can't do that, then nobody likes your house.

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