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Old 07-27-2010, 09:36 PM   #1
Phaso
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I'm not entirely sold on the new particle effects appearance-wise yet, but they do seem to perform better than the old ones.  That being said, are the AA abilities most classes have going to receive updated effects as well in the near future?  They don't mesh well at all with the new ones.

And I have to say it... it seems like a lot of effort was invested in unique appearances for buff-type spells and less effort put into the damage spells most of us frequently cast and see.  I can't speak for everyone, but most of my buffs are never cast unless I change my AA spec at a mirror, meaning they won't really be seen much anyway.

Case in Point as a coercer: The animation you've done for Breeze (and I assume Epiphany)... I would rather see that (possibly a shorter or partial version) used on Mana Flow (instead of the giant blue ring that makes everyone hover in the air).

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Old 07-27-2010, 11:50 PM   #2
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I have only checked out my wizard new spell graphics so far... and my feelings are mixed.  All my buffs except AA ones shar the same spell cast and graphic... which isnt too bad.  However nukes are a mixed bag.

Ice comet - Better then live BUT still disappointing.  For our biggest bang eq1 still kicks eq2 out of the water.  Theres is a HUGE comet you summon then it crashes at an angle to the mob.  The new one "looks" to be the same size as the old, just an minor explosion of white when it lands... and it falls from the sky.   I would recommend making the comet bigger and maybe add some animation of it forming as you cast it.

Ball of fire - much better, you can actually see it go across screen.

Pircing icicles/flames of velious - allso kinda nice, see the iclces stream across, although bigger ... slightly bigger may be better

Everything else is ok, but honestly didnt find them too exciting.  Round casting rune that appears on my wizard everytime he cast is super annoying.... pls take it out, dont mind on buffs but it appearing on everything.. bad idea.

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Old 07-28-2010, 12:03 AM   #3
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one more thing i wanted to add is casting ring... i actually enjoy seeing them, they arent there when casting the new spells.  they being taken out(hope not)  or being replaced?

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:23 AM   #4
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I just tried out the new partikle effects on a couple of toons.

I understand they are new on test and likely to change... but...

In comparison to the old ones they seem pale.

-the spell ring around the characters feet when they cast is missing

-the color sheme is not the same e.g. Shadowknights had mostly purple/blue/black as spelleffects, now it is green

 when you play for 5 years  you want to see what you are used too, especialle when you liked it

-the new standart spell effekt has green swirly  lines around the shadowknight - that looks cartoony, not (bad choice of word maybe) realistic like all the old eq2 spell effects...

-expecially the new taunts remind me of WoW *shudders* (red lines around the targets head)  i always found the flames around the targets head a nice idea.

-the old spell effects were spectacular, organic.   an example: when a conjuror cast "root" you would see

chains binging the target to the floor, now you see some yellow circle under the mob... nothing else

All in all the effects seem to move from opulent  to "icons"...  which i don't like at all.

The most important question for me

-because after  taking away 200+ quests in Q/F, killing Qeynos and Freeport Newbe Isles

and making assasins good,  monks and templars evil *facepalm*  i really fear that this game won't  stay the gem it was, but rather become a  "everything goes, even if it destroys the integrity of the lore / story / feel of the original game"  

Which is WHY i play it and not something else - for the lore, for the looks, for the storylines (not the quest rewards - the story behind them,  "fendriks heart" as a great example) for the feeling to see a real world.

So the most important question is:

Will the new spell effects be OPTIONAL  or will we habe to life with cartoony icons instead of spell animations ?

It would be nice to have an answer for that from the devs SMILEY

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:29 AM   #5
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I actually didn't mind them too much...

However, when I was testing in Stonebrunt Highlands, I did find that my FPS dropped by 20 or so (from 60 to around 40) while I was fighting. I expect a little drop while casting spells and such, but this seems a little TOO severe. Normally I don't loose any more than 5 while fighting, and typically only loose closer to 20 in a raid situation.

Not sure if this means optimization is needed.

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:35 AM   #6
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They have to have done it for performance.. the old particle effects are in fact immensely advanced.. full 3d normal mapped and animated instanced objects combined with sophisticated volume lighting effects and complex transparencies. I never understood why people arent more impressed with them as they are one of the best things in the game. Only in the area of flames and such were they sometimes less than fantastic

The new ones are often simple procedurals and mapped textures. look at the wizard area fire spell... would have been bad 5 years ago, beyond belief now. An entire generation technically behind the old ones as far as I am concerned and I am frankly appalled to see the change. I can only assume the programmers who understood the old ones are long gone, or it was a lot of work to optimise them and noone wanted to do it.

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Old 07-28-2010, 06:43 AM   #7
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The old particle effects never quite meshed in my opinion, so much could have been done with the particle engine, yet wasn't. I never quite understood the tying animations to spell effects thing, either.

I've only tested the new effects briefly on my Mystic but they're so... anaemic. It's a whole bundle of 'meh' so far. Nothing special or impressive. They may well perform 'better' than the old ones but if this is the best you can come up with, leave the old ones in until there's something worth replacing them with. Please.

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Old 07-28-2010, 07:02 AM   #8
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I'm mixed on the new spell effects. I liked most of my troub's, but then was pretty underwhelmed with my templar, then my warden... and all the other characters I took a look at. They all feel very flat. :/

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Old 07-28-2010, 08:58 AM   #9
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I'm torn on this.  They do PERFORM better, but they don't actually LOOK better.  I rather liked the subtle (well for SKs all ours were subtle) ones I had before rather than these which look like they came out of a bad anime.

I'd be interested in seeing what this would do to mobs where you have to watch for a certain casting animation / particle effect (Varsoon, or for me, soloing anything that charms.)

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Old 07-28-2010, 09:34 AM   #10
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Part of the reason behind why they wanted to change particle effects is that they were overkill -- even little spells would have big effects, meaning the size of the effect was disproportionate to the strength of the spell.

With that said, toning most down is a good thing. Even grouping with particles turned up could be a crazy light-show in the old system, while raiding with them on was almost a guarantee that you'd see everything (except the mob underneath it all SMILEY). Given the use of things that require you to see the mob (the named in Vigx2 being the easy example), having less flashy particles without having to turn them off entirely is a good thing.

To my knowledge it wasn't really a performance thing for the top reason. If you want better performance, you could already turn them down or off. With that said, it would be nice to see some of the long-recast, high-impact abilities retain their flashy effects. (FD: I have not tested particles on Test yet, so I cannot fully comment on how the new ones look).

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Old 07-28-2010, 09:36 AM   #11
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I am not amused by Apocalypse looking nearly identical to dissolve, and I have no idea [Removed for Content] distortion is meant to represent.

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Old 07-28-2010, 10:44 AM   #12
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Oh man, thank Cod they did these new particle effects.  They're awesome!  Much MUCH better than the old ones. 

Primary reason why the old particle effects were (for the most part) completely frickin' ridiculous was the absurd amount of overkill.  I used to laugh back in the day when I'd play this game, where even at low levels, with all the pyrotechnics and HUGE explosions of light and gas and every other [Removed for Content] thing you'd think it was these world-changing immortals reshaping reality for miles or something.  Oh, nope...just some 15th level guys fightin' a goblin.  *rolls eyes*

Always hated that about EQ2.

Plus, most of the old animations just plain looked dumb (and kinda cheap).  Ohh, my buff spells that buff mitigation create a ghostly shield that drops over my head?  Really?

I mean, with the old effects you had to [Removed for Content]' turn 'em off just to see what the hell was goin' on in the middle of a fight!  They were ridiculous.  Always an embarassingly tacky part of EQ2 (imo).

I get where they're going with most of these effects (I think), from a design perspective, and I think it's pretty cool.  Most spells have glowing runic magical glyph type themes swirling around, little runes of power.  Very magical spell-like.  Very much how I personally would imagine that kinda thing.  I didn't try out enough classes yet, but I want to say that this design theme will be sorta class specific?  For example, my Warlock seemed to have a persistant theme of a spinning, sorta dark purple and greenish glowing disc of glyphs with several of his spell casts, at least the offensive types.  If like the Wizard and/or Conjurer for instance had a very notably different recurring theme to their spells, I think that's cool as hell.

I was also seeing a theme where spells of a certain element had some definite continuity in their effects?  Is that right?  Like ice spells definitely showed some very clear icey particle stuff flyin' around, and fire definitely had some nice fiery glow stuff goin' on, things like that.  That kinda stuff was sorta there in the original animations, but it just didn't seem like it was as recognizable with alotta spells.  I recall looking at spell descriptions on alotta spells and kinda goin "Really?  This does Cold damage?  Weird.  Doesn't look like it". 

Oh, which brings me to a big gripe: sweet lord, even though it may not be possible with this engine, do something about the horrible way in which your graphics engine renders fire effects.  Och!  Cod, it's so weak.  A red and orange glow?  That's supposed to be fire?  Needs work.  At the very LEAST slap a very brief black smoke effect on it as well (which would help tremendously with making the connection in your head that it's fire you're seeing, and not just a pretty orange glow).

Great, great job on the new effects!  Love it.  *cough*but work on the fire stuff*cough*

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Old 07-28-2010, 11:04 AM   #13
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I do really hope they make this optional for performance reasons. I am one who loves the current spell effects, I like that they feel epic.  To this day, I can't get enough of buffing my warden just for grins and giggles, or my coercer who it feels like an epic battle and I just find it super fun to watch the spells.

If they could make Shader3.0 optional, I really hope they can make this optional as well. :

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Old 07-28-2010, 11:57 AM   #14
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Had some more time to try out more of my alts effects.  Wizard, Warlock, Warden, Illusionist, and Coercer.  (Only the warden heals look interesting to me) As one of the poster above said, they all look flat.  feels very 2D and bland.  

I understand something needed to be done with every spell being a "big bang" with particles but these new particles look dull no matter what you cast.  Wizards  ice comet, warlock rift and coercers shockwave are there big spells.  The particles were adjusted, but they are both poor attempts.  They litterally feel  half a**.  Warlock as stated above, one of there big spells Apocalypse shares a graphic with disolve, very lack luster.  All the spells that have a beam going to the mob the color is muted, effect is small, and its up very brief.  I would change that.  Use more virbrant color, keep it up for longer so you see it.  I hate to say it but WoW has beams and they make them work wonderfully if ya need a referance.

Small minor spells i like the idea if them be less graphically intrusive.  I dont mind them have small minor effects, but the big spells for each class however  need some adjusting.

So my over all feedback, less 2D feel, go through and readjust the big spells to be vibrant and exciting looking.  Make those spells like ice comet and shockwave more awe inspiring, ( in there case more particles and bigger is better) The magic round casting rune that appears in front/back of mage's so needs to go, its annoying to see that thing pop up.  casting rings, i enjoyed seeing them, they played there roll (know the class by the ring, good visual on pc's and npc's)  And finally If new particles  arent being adjusted,  I want the old ones back,  New ones are annoying enough where i'll turn them off if i have the option.

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Old 07-28-2010, 12:19 PM   #15
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[email protected] wrote:

-the old spell effects were spectacular, organic.   an example: when a conjuror cast "root" you would see

chains binging the target to the floor, now you see some yellow circle under the mob... nothing else

I haven't gotten a chance to get on test since the update but... They're taking away the root graphics?? My Warlocks roots were one of my favorite spell effects (the boney hand and the chains). Is it just the conjuror change or everyone?

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Old 07-28-2010, 01:56 PM   #16
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Thistleknot wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

-the old spell effects were spectacular, organic.   an example: when a conjuror cast "root" you would see

chains binging the target to the floor, now you see some yellow circle under the mob... nothing else

I haven't gotten a chance to get on test since the update but... They're taking away the root graphics?? My Warlocks roots were one of my favorite spell effects (the boney hand and the chains). Is it just the conjuror change or everyone?

Ya, I would agree that the new Root effects are a pretty big step back.

Best root/mez effects ever: City of Heroes.  There's your inspiration.  Probably way too much work for this engine, but man I always just flipped over CoH's cool as hell CC effects.  Hearing that rumble of earth and stone and them WHAM, your target is suddenly encased in solid rock, just a few body parts sticking out.  Pretty [Removed for Content] clever actually working a meaningful, semi-plausible (relatively speaking) change to the environment around your target to explain how he's been CC'd (ie encased in rock, or ice, etc).  The closest EQ2 got was those tangling roots.

  • I would argue that only the Druids (maybe the Shaman's) should get that tangling roots effect (or a new version of it, personally I always thought there were way WAY too many squiggling little roots). 
  • Necro's could mebbe get the ghostly chains (fits more with their idiom). 
  • Wizards need the City of Heroes encased in ice thing.  Ya really don't have to go crazy on this one from a programming stanpoint.  A big block of semi-translucent bluish ice that automatically sizes to fit the size of the model, and just freeze the movement of the mob inside it while it's up.  Seems easy enough (relatively speaking).
  • Perfect world: Conjurers would get the same thing as Wizard's, but it'd be a big block of stone (but with the mobs head and arms sticking out, like CoH) but that'll never happen.  Too bad, really, as it's perfect for their class.
  • Warlocks should mebbe just be a persistant cloud of gas at the targets feet, along with the choking animation?  They're choking too much to move forward, know what I mean?  In a perfect world it would be a "dropping to your knees" choking animation, but I don't think they have a canned version of that (I'm trying to avoid stuff that requires new character animations).
  • Illusionists/Coercers need the prismatic effect over their head and maybe the mob does a "dizzy" character animation (is there one?  I forget) and/or the "sleepy" mood animation.  Make it seem like they're hypnotized by the colors.  Oh-oh; better yet do an effect of those black and white spiral spining thingers that are the classic cliched "You'll get hynotized if you stare at this spinning black and white spiral thing".
  • All melee class CC needs to be a simple knockdown.  Too bad there isn't a "hobbling/limping" character animation, as that'd be perfect for all melee snares (ie you kicked 'em or shot 'em in the leg or something).
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:03 PM   #17
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Thistleknot wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

-the old spell effects were spectacular, organic.   an example: when a conjuror cast "root" you would see

chains binging the target to the floor, now you see some yellow circle under the mob... nothing else

I haven't gotten a chance to get on test since the update but... They're taking away the root graphics?? My Warlocks roots were one of my favorite spell effects (the boney hand and the chains). Is it just the conjuror change or everyone?

No, I saw the skeletal graphic still. The single target root didnt have it, but the group root specifically called 'skeletal grasp' had it. Personally, as far as new effects go I would prefer that warlocks had less noxious oriented effects. If I recall, warlocks by the game lore are just as much about void energy as they are noxious.

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Old 07-28-2010, 03:04 PM   #18
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Morghus wrote:

Thistleknot wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

-the old spell effects were spectacular, organic.   an example: when a conjuror cast "root" you would see

chains binging the target to the floor, now you see some yellow circle under the mob... nothing else

I haven't gotten a chance to get on test since the update but... They're taking away the root graphics?? My Warlocks roots were one of my favorite spell effects (the boney hand and the chains). Is it just the conjuror change or everyone?

No, I saw the skeletal graphic still. The single target root didnt have it, but the group root specifically called 'skeletal grasp' had it. Personally, as far as new effects go I would prefer that warlocks had less noxious oriented effects. If I recall, warlocks by the game lore are just as much about void energy as they are noxious.

Most of the temp buffs and debuffs for a warlock are void based and they redid most to have some kind of black swirly effect, like a black hole, either on the mob or you.  Warlocks over all isnt too bad, just think Apoc/dissolve beam should look more like green magical energy instead of a romulan Distruptor.  Rift, right idea, the energy should be black since its a void based spell not a earth based and the rocks coming above should be bigger.

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Old 07-28-2010, 04:25 PM   #19
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They're extremely reminiscent of Vanguard's minimalistic particle effects.

I like both styles equally well, one for it's relative subtlety, and the other for it's flagrant display of epic, bold magic.  I think the logically designed original particle effects fit in much better with EQ2's graphics, given the new ones seem so much more . . .dull, Vanguard forgive me, in comparison to the world graphics.  I enjoyed casting a root and seeing giant chains bind the mob to the ground- that was intensely AMAZING the first time I saw it, and the feeling of "realism" in the interpretation of spell animations was a nice change from the usual meaningless flash of color.

Granted, certain spells were rather lacking, but on the whole, one of the main features of EQ2 for me has always been it's awesome particle effects.  They currently have a very robust array of spell effects in place, and I've only marginally seen the new effects, but I truly hope they either rethink this, or make it optional.

My conjuror will not be pleased Being able to conjure some rocks out of thin air was always one of the "signature" appearances of this class, imo.  I haven't seen the spell yet, but from what I've seen, I assume this new system wont have any fully 3D boulders toppling out of nowhere like the old system does.

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Old 07-28-2010, 08:32 PM   #20
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Please tell me these new graphics are optional. SK iconic spells are all gone. Sure they're more functional but they look horrible.

I expected them to clean up some of the animations which were over the top and maybe clean up some of the spam but instead they gutted them. Makes the game a lot less fun for me.

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Old 07-28-2010, 10:53 PM   #21
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Leveled a few classes (Fury, Necro & Wizard) to level 6 or so to test out the new spells. I thought for the most part they were very bland and 2D looking. The only ones I really cared for was the Fury. I'm not to fond of the rune plate style in front of your hands when casting; it doesn't seem to fit for me.  I hope there are some tweaks that can be made to make them more visual appealing.

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Old 07-28-2010, 11:21 PM   #22
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I copied over my Inquis to see what my new spell graphics will look like.

Wow. I can't really describe how uninspiring and just...bland and ugly I find them. Especially when casting reactives. The glowing afterwards looks like something off a PS1. Tried my warlock out too, and all the beams and stuff just don't fit with the game. Like they aren't using the same color pallette or something. It just seems...off.

The little symbols that display overhead for some buffs now? Warcraft. EXACTLY like Warcraft. I'm sure these changes are soley based on the F2P, so they can attract the kiddies to something that looks familiar to them. For the first time in years, I just don't know if I want to play this game anymore. The looks of spells in this game were what initally made me grab it at launch, just looked so epic and amazing. Don't dumb this down to a pure wow clone, because that's where we're going. It's obvious to me, and others will take notice eventually.

When this goes live, expect another backlash. A HUGE backlash from your paying customers that don't WANT a WoW clone. If I wanted to see horrible spell effects, i'd sub over there. I don't. If this is truly the direction that smokeblower and others want the game to go in, i'm not sure i'll have a place in Norrath much longer. The animations are better, i'll give you that. But this atrocity? Please make it optional. Please.

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Old 07-29-2010, 12:07 AM   #23
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I actually find WoW graphics better than the new ones.  New Effects give a feel of 2d vanguard.

I dont think they will be well recieved on live at all.  Should have done a poll or discusion on the forums to see what players would have liked to seen.  Just thinking of all the man power and time to make these new effects and very few find them interested or good.

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Old 07-29-2010, 06:24 AM   #24
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can we please have the option to keep the "old" partical/spell effects when this goes live?

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Old 07-29-2010, 06:26 AM   #25
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I will have to agree with those saying the effects atm are very anti climatic..  It is good that the change is happening but there really needs to be more substance.

The coercer effects for example are very anti climatic for the most part.   Hostage and Spell Curse are the exact smae spell animation and its like the toon is swinging a tennis racket with epilepsy hehe.  SMILEY

Shockwave is a step in the right direction for sure but I really dont get a feel for it being our biggest nuke.. no accompanying sound or big bang or anything really sounding like a shockwave.  Infact, what would be a cooler effect, if i may,  than just a big blue bubble expanding is instead if the bubble collapsed in on itself and then you saw a shockwave (you know like in the movies) ring blow outwards as it blew up with some nice particle effects of course (Think Deathstar explosion from the re-released movies!!!).  =)   Ive played a coercer for a long time now and I have all sorts of ideas floating in my head.   =)

All of the coercers single target attacks are the same for the most part.  I really dont get a feeling of being this strong adventurer that no one should mess with with the way the current particle effects are set at. 

I like Chronosiphoning, the explosion of art is very cool, i think that has to be my fav...sadly  =)  But its all good Im sure its a work in progress.  =)

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Old 07-29-2010, 09:14 AM   #26
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Roth, I have to ask, what was the motiviation for changing the spell graphics. Especially so dramatically. Was the team getting bombarded with requests to change the graphics?

For me the spell graphics were one of the best features this game had over others. This will not go well on live.

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Old 07-29-2010, 11:59 AM   #27
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I havent got a chance to play around much, still waiting for profit to update and a buffer on Test Copy but a couple things based on the toons I copied and leveled to around 10-15..

  • Brigands... The buffs look cool (except the stances) esp Amazing Reflexes looks awesome but why are my CAs like that? I mean I can hardly see the mob under all that blackness and redness, except when I Dispatch it and it turns all kinds of pretty colors........ O.O
  • Scout / Brawler stance animations are.. horrible.. compared to what they were..
  • The SK effects arent good enough, even though they look decent, they're the opposite of what the spell effects were and overall just not as good..
  • The Wizard effects seem very dull and underwhelming..
  • The Warden heals are great, but everything else is very.. dull..
  • The root/snare effects need redone, I think everyone can agree on that..

Overall everything just feels very.. dull.. these new effects are gonna need some love before they are better than the old at any rate, if they arent gonna get the love they need, can they atleast be optional?

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Old 07-29-2010, 12:22 PM   #28
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The spell particle effects were one of the most annoying aspects of EQ2.  Yes, they were/are spectacular and beautifully done.  But they were waaaaaaay over the top and there was no really effective way to turn them down (or off) without losing the visuals that were often absolutely necessary in successfully raiding.  And in a raid ... 24 characters unloading on the same target, even if it didn't cause stutter frame, just completely obliterated the sight of the target. 

I like well-done particles but keeping them to some reasonable (yeah I know that is completely subjective) level of detail should be included in the design.  My favorite MMO for spell effects is still DAOC - distinctive, spectacular, yet not over-whelming.

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Old 07-29-2010, 02:45 PM   #29
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Skywarrior wrote:

The spell particle effects were one of the most annoying aspects of EQ2.  Yes, they were/are spectacular and beautifully done.  But they were waaaaaaay over the top and there was no really effective way to turn them down (or off) without losing the visuals that were often absolutely necessary in successfully raiding.  And in a raid ... 24 characters unloading on the same target, even if it didn't cause stutter frame, just completely obliterated the sight of the target. 

I like well-done particles but keeping them to some reasonable (yeah I know that is completely subjective) level of detail should be included in the design.  My favorite MMO for spell effects is still DAOC - distinctive, spectacular, yet not over-whelming.

These new particle effects look worse then a game from the cga era. I agree with you DAOC did a great job balancing form and function. These new particle effects are very low quality and cartoonish.

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Old 07-29-2010, 05:56 PM   #30
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I love the new Storm of Arrows and Stream of Arrows effects for rangers.

The rest are just kinda eh.  Not really any worse than the old ranger effects, not really any better.  But I do love my AoEs now.

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