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Old 10-25-2012, 12:03 AM   #1
Davngr1

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as of now some procs are affected by target potency and others are not. 

  this was never an issue before reckless stance but now with fighters being able to double their potency.  it creates a HUGE discrepancy between what procs hit for. 

 i have not been able to check out the new procs as to what ones are affected by target potency or not but here is a list of the procs that are currently live and need to be fixed:

fanatical devotion (inquis)

field commanders charge (fighter prestige)

claras chaos (dirge)

zanders chorus(troub)

chilling vengeance (inquis)

 these are just some of the ones that i have noticed are broken.   

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Old 10-25-2012, 02:00 AM   #2
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Pretty sure FD/CI aren't. And Field Commander's makes sense, as it's actually the fighter's proc to begin with.

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Old 10-25-2012, 02:22 AM   #3
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Pretty sure FD/CI aren't. And Field Commander's makes sense, as it's actually the fighter's proc to begin with.

  yea, that's true but i'm pretty sure that with two fighters you still get one quality of hit ie. both procs emerging from either fighter are affected by potency.   

  either way here's some visual data but you can just see (in your own parses) what procs are hitting way higher for fighters in reckless than anyone else.

 

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:50 PM   #4
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need some dev input on this.

 are you going to keep letting these procs double dip potency benefits?   

 if so what criteria do you use to let a proc double dip into potency?

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:21 PM   #5
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I don't see why they should be changed. The proc is affected by anybody's potency, it's just that fighters can now get a lot more potency than anybody else. If anything, it helps the dps tanks in a raid be more viable, and it's something that affects all fighters equally.

If procs were made to not be affected by potency, it would end up being an across-the-board thing, which would severely reduce *everybody's* dps.

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:33 PM   #6
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Look at your data again, thats 35k for FD normal potency and 12k for a reckless FC, so i see no problem at all with this, and even if that FC wasnt from a reckless tank, its simple x2 and we get 24k, which again isn't a big deal so still no problem.

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Old 10-25-2012, 06:58 PM   #7
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huh?

 so why do these professional procs get to DOUBLE dip into potency and the other class defining proc damage abilities don't?

  also how are these procs balanced?   are they balanced for a fighter with 1000 potency or a dps class with 500 potency? 

   how are dps procs more effective for a fighter class over a true dps class?   

    these are all issues that should have been resolved BEFORE this dumb ability was introduced but because it was not it's something that needs to be balanced now.   

  if not this expac, then next.    

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Old 10-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #8
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you dont seem to understand how potency and procs works, its the controller of the groups proc potency that raises the dmg, then its based on the persons crit bonus for who proc'd it if it can crit.

also its balanced cause they only add up to like 40k to your parse if your able to proc it enough, so if you dont swing much it doesnt add much.

plus why does it have to be more effective for a true dps class?? sounds like your just trying to be greedy here

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Old 10-25-2012, 07:42 PM   #9
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Ratman12345 wrote:

you dont seem to understand how potency and procs works, its the controller of the groups proc potency that raises the dmg, then its based on the persons crit bonus for who proc'd it if it can crit.

also its balanced cause they only add up to like 40k to your parse if your able to proc it enough, so if you dont swing much it doesnt add much.

plus why does it have to be more effective for a true dps class?? sounds like your just trying to be greedy here

i understand how it's suppose to work, it's you who does not understand the parses i posted.

 why should true dps classes benefit from dps procs more?   because they leveled a dps class to 92/320 not a tank.

   why not give a wizard about equal tanking ability as a tank?      because they leveled a dps class to 92/320 not a tank.

 see how that works?  it's common sense.

   anyway..  back to the real issue.

   these procs among others are benefiting by the casters potency and then benefiting by the targets potency again.   this was ninja nerfed back with VC got axed a while back but these slipped by undetected.  it was never an issue till now that fighters are reaching ridiculous amounts of potency.

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Old 10-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #10
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Davngr1 wrote:

Ratman12345 wrote:

you dont seem to understand how potency and procs works, its the controller of the groups proc potency that raises the dmg, then its based on the persons crit bonus for who proc'd it if it can crit.

also its balanced cause they only add up to like 40k to your parse if your able to proc it enough, so if you dont swing much it doesnt add much.

plus why does it have to be more effective for a true dps class?? sounds like your just trying to be greedy here

 why should true dps classes benefit from dps procs more?   because they leveled a dps class to 92/320 not a tank.

 why not give a wizard about equal tanking ability as a tank?   because they leveled a dps class to 92/320 not a tank.

+1 to this.

Reckless is what it is, but when we start giving those fighter classes even more of an advatage by allowing them to modify their potency and have their skills affected by this moreso than dps classes, it effects class balance.  If we trend out how fast their dps is increasing with the Pot benefit of recklessness versus the regular dps classes, they will overtake the t2 and t1 dps given enough increases of stats on gear.

I have seen no mention about giving scouts the ability to tank (it would be nice to get a couple of stoneskins for AEs/red text so we could stay in tho...lol), and don't mind the concept of giving tanks more relevance in raids when specific fights require 3 or 4 tanks and other fights require 1 or 2, but there has to be a cap.  When a tank is running around with ~500pot and they hit recklessness and are suddenly at 1k and doing more dps as a monk than many of the "dps" classes, then I think people will start to get mad, so it would be nice to avoid that.  Thankfully I have a scout and a monk, so really either way whatever you do, it works for me SMILEY.

(would really like to see tanks....you know......tank stuff tho, since that's what they rolled their character to do SMILEY)

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Old 10-26-2012, 04:38 PM   #11
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 this issue warrants a dev response.    you can't keep making proc damage that is allowed to "double dip" into potency when you gave a class DOUBLE POTENCY.    this is SIMPLE balance.    

  the solution is to fix these procs or fix the ability.

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Old 10-29-2012, 06:38 PM   #12
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this is making certain classes obscenely better because their proc damage can "double dip" into potency and giving tanks in reckless a "broken" advantage over the rest of dps classes in raid because of them having DOUBLE potency to DOUBLE DIP into to. 

it's mind boggling that this even made it live but the fact it's being ignored makes me wonder if the current soe plan is to have plate dps classes who can tank if they want.    if that's the plan then where's the rest of my classes DOUBLE roles?

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:34 PM   #13
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Tanks arent double dipping potency unless you are talking about receiving more potency from buffs in which they are receiving relatively the same gains as other classes with higher base damage.. Whatever happened to your whole dps classes are phased out by only having tanks dps'ing idea? Yeah that didnt exactly come to fruition did it?

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:26 AM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

Tanks arent double dipping potency unless you are talking about receiving more potency from buffs in which they are receiving relatively the same gains as other classes with higher base damage.. Whatever happened to your whole dps classes are phased out by only having tanks dps'ing idea? Yeah that didnt exactly come to fruition did it?

  go ahead and find my quote, on me saying that and you will notice that i said "with coming expansions"  ie. at the end of this expansions and going into next the situation will continue to deteriorate until it's finally fixed by whatever dev team is around in those times if this game is still around.

  also like to add

  O.M.G.   it's truly appalling how dumb the "high end" raiding community is..  seriously.  

   is it really that hurd to understand what "double dipping" potency benefits is?    i mean srsly?    can you really not grasp such a simple concept?   

  then you cry about dev's that don't want to post detailed mechanics on avoidance or anything else..

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Old 10-30-2012, 09:44 AM   #15
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Davngr just stop. The only case you have is that Clara's/Zander's procs are modified by each person's individual potency instead of the bard's, and it really isn't that big of a deal.

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Old 10-30-2012, 04:04 PM   #16
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Davngr just stop. The only case you have is that Clara's/Zander's procs are modified by each person's individual potency instead of the bard's, and it really isn't that big of a deal.

parses don't lie.    

  notice how all the procs on there are hitting for double the damage.   i'll get around to checking the new procs but just wanted to let other player know about this since i'm sure devs know or hope they do.   

  this is exactly the problem with double potency for any class, specially tank classes who get most of their damage from proc damage.

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Old 10-30-2012, 07:17 PM   #17
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While we can argue about how much dps comes from procs or CAs, the simple fact is that a tank in reckless is increasing faster than a dps.  It is a mathmatical fact, as potency is a damage multiplier and when you have a piece with 10pot that a dps can use, and a piece with 10 potency a tank can use, that then becomes 20 potency when in reckless, those are two different curves.  Then a piece with 20 potency will still be 20 for a dps, but 40 for that monk in reckless.

It may not become an issue for an expansion or two, but if you look at how the multipliers function and the rate of growth for a tank in reckless versus a dps, eventually the tank will overtake the dps, simply because of the rate at which they are increasing. I'm at work posting on my phone or I could make a nice graph, but I am sure the devs can see the rate of increase, and something will have to be done eventually.

With the utility most dps bring I doubt that most would be replaced right away, but I could see down the road when someone can self buff to 750 potency a tank then pops into reckless and now has over 1500 potency, a raid thinking it's not a bad idea to run 3 or 4 brawlers SMILEY.

Like I said earlier in the thread tho, fine for me, I like playing my monk too SMILEY.

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Old 10-30-2012, 10:21 PM   #18
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this is the classic story of the the king who asked the wiseman what he wanted for giving him the game of chess.  the king offered him anything he wanted and all the wiseman asked for was to put one grain of wheat on the first square and double the amount with each square.  

 yes, in the beginning it seemed trite but as the initial value grew it became all too obvious that the king had been taken advantage off and would soon owe his entire kingdom to this wise man.

  fixing procs that allow double dipping into potency should absolutely be fixed right away and this stance will be revisited at some point in the future even if this proc problem is resolved.

 edit.

 i really need to start proof reading before i hit submit

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Old 10-31-2012, 04:10 AM   #19
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So why not worry about it when it gets to that point? Notice how much higher the damage of the abilities dps classes get compared to fighters? You act like dps classes wont continue to get better dps as we go along. Why waste time on it now when its not game breaking and no guilds are even dropping dps for tanks like you suggested they would. If it ever does become an issue down the road then they can adjust it then but right now id rather them focus on stuff that matters and that is making this expansion good, not another venue for you to complain about an ability you dont like.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:55 AM   #20
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Davngr1 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Pretty sure FD/CI aren't. And Field Commander's makes sense, as it's actually the fighter's proc to begin with.

  yea, that's true but i'm pretty sure that with two fighters you still get one quality of hit ie. both procs emerging from either fighter are affected by potency.   

  either way here's some visual data but you can just see (in your own parses) what procs are hitting way higher for fighters in reckless than anyone else.

 

your data flawed.... unless you know how to calculate everything that goes into combat mechanics and you have the potency and crit bonus, you have no argument. do you know everything that effects field commander? so you say potency is the reason why it hits harder? here is data to prove you wrong. if you were 100% accurate on your statement then why is a mage able to get bigger hits with the ability than a fighter who has more potency? Why is a scout whith 50 less potency hitting harder than a fighter with the same ability? your argument is flawed and sounds like a pore me case of envy.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:58 AM   #21
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inquis
TypeDamageEncDPSAverageMedianMinHitMaxHitResistHitsSwingsToHitCrit%
Field Commander's Charge786,297475.121,251.2720,75615,15629,796crushing374092.5100%
conj285.4 crit bonus287.2 potency
TypeDamageEncDPSAverageMedianMinHitMaxHitResistHitsSwingsToHitCrit%
Field Commander's Charge3,510,0252,120.8624,893.7924,8762,67435,564crushing141141100100%

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:58 AM   #22
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pally293.4 crit bonus298.9 potency
TypeDamageEncDPSAverageMedianMinHitMaxHitResistHitsSwingsToHitCrit%
Field Commander's Charge1,044,703631.2420,090.4420,7783,22728,838crushing525496.3100%
troub321.3 crit bonus242.2 potency
TypeDamageEncDPSAverageMedianMinHitMaxHitResistHitsSwingsToHitCrit%
Field Commander's Charge1,760,3721,063.6720,004.2319,77411,61629,106crushing889394.62100%
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:58 AM   #23
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mystic253.9 crit bonus263.3 potency
TypeDamageEncDPSAverageMedianMinHitMaxHitResistHitsSwingsToHitCrit%
Field Commander's Charge81,34349.1516,268.6016,88010,40219,488crushing55100100%
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:14 PM   #24
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i don't understand the babble you posted, bro. 

 so i'm just going to reiterate my point.   some proc damage DOUBLE DIPS into potency and this can be checked in your own parses when you have reckless on or off. 

  it should be changed and it's moronic that devs are ignoring this unless they want to make fighters T1 damage in coming expansions.       dumbest thing ever.

edit.

 i'll run some more parses and post some more screenshots so even the thickest dolt can understand, later.

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Old 11-03-2012, 03:33 PM   #25
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Davngr1 wrote:

i don't understand the babble you posted, bro. 

 so i'm just going to reiterate my point.   some proc damage DOUBLE DIPS into potency and this can be checked in your own parses when you have reckless on or off. 

  it should be changed and it's moronic that devs are ignoring this unless they want to make fighters T1 damage in coming expansions.       dumbest thing ever.

edit.

 i'll run some more parses and post some more screenshots so even the thickest dolt can understand, later.

Lol (really? L mao is censored??). "I have no idea what anyone else is talking about, so I'll just repeat my points that have been disproved or don't really make a difference. For good measure, I think I'll call the devs morons, too."

I honestly don't get what you mean by "double dipping" into potency. In reckless, fighters have double potency. Things affected by potency will hit harder. Is there a reason why they shouldn't? Yes, if fighters have more potency then scouts, attacks affected by potency will hit harder. Scouts do more melee damage than fighters, most of their attacks hit harder. Scouts still parse higher than fighters. Why is this an issue?

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:24 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

i don't understand the babble you posted, bro. 

 so i'm just going to reiterate my point.   some proc damage DOUBLE DIPS into potency and this can be checked in your own parses when you have reckless on or off. 

  it should be changed and it's moronic that devs are ignoring this unless they want to make fighters T1 damage in coming expansions.       dumbest thing ever.

edit.

 i'll run some more parses and post some more screenshots so even the thickest dolt can understand, later.

Lol (really? L mao is censored??). "I have no idea what anyone else is talking about, so I'll just repeat my points that have been disproved or don't really make a difference. For good measure, I think I'll call the devs morons, too."

I honestly don't get what you mean by "double dipping" into potency. In reckless, fighters have double potency. Things affected by potency will hit harder. Is there a reason why they shouldn't? Yes, if fighters have more potency then scouts, attacks affected by potency will hit harder. Scouts do more melee damage than fighters, most of their attacks hit harder. Scouts still parse higher than fighters. Why is this an issue?

it's an issue because most of the other procs where changed to NOT "double dip" into potency and for some reason these were NOT.

 what i mean by "double dip" is that the PROC is modified by the CASTERS potency and then IS modified yet AGAIN by the targets potency.  

  why should these procs get to "double dip" and not the others?   oh yea.. because someone decided to DOUBLE fighter potency but for the DOUBLE potency to be balanced it needs to ONLY affect CA's and nothing else.

any fighter that wants to do T1 damage should roll a T1 dps class.     you have your raid spot in almost EVERY raid.  maybe at the top end fighters get sat because they have a bunch of extra bodies but over all most raid forces can barely keep 24 on the roster. 

 the fall from this dumb ability hasn't even begun yet.   expect more fail to come along in coming expansions.  

  fixing this is the least you could do.

 edit.

 btw.. lol at "what's the issue"..    

 the issue is that proc damage is very powerful and can quickly over shadow CA/spell damage in a raid setting depending on the encounter, thus high damage proc damage should be reserved for classes that are brought into the raid for that SOLE PURPOSE.

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Old 11-04-2012, 08:09 PM   #27
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Um if the proc is what u call "double dipping" on a fighter itll be double dipping when it procs on you as well.  The double potency is meant to increase damage on things affected by potency so its doing exactly as intended.  Why you would have such a problem with a couple procs on a tank beats the hell outta me.  If your T1, a tanks DPS shouldnt be your worry even if they were triple dipping.

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Old 11-04-2012, 09:43 PM   #28
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lodgepark8485 wrote:

Um if the proc is what u call "double dipping" on a fighter itll be double dipping when it procs on you as well.  The double potency is meant to increase damage on things affected by potency so its doing exactly as intended.  Why you would have such a problem with a couple procs on a tank beats the hell outta me.  If your T1, a tanks DPS shouldnt be your worry even if they were triple dipping.

it's unbalanced because fighters get DOUBLE potency what part of that don't you understand? 

  you don't remember illys topping parses in TSO because of proc damage?  

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Old 11-04-2012, 10:46 PM   #29
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While we are talking about "double dipping" procs, why don't we also get rid of pets ability to proc temps since summoners currently gain twice the benefit as sorc. 

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Old 11-04-2012, 11:05 PM   #30
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kenzar wrote:

While we are talking about "double dipping" procs, why don't we also get rid of pets ability to proc temps since summoners currently gain twice the benefit as sorc. 

sure.. and throw bestlords into the pot too but you will have to greatly increase summoner damage since with out the proc damage summoners (unlike beastlords) parse like bards.

  nice coy comment btw but summoners are invited for DAMAGE not to tank mobs.. all you did was emphasize how broken things currently are.

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