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Old 12-18-2006, 05:48 PM   #1
Teksun

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So here I am grouped up over the weekend, and am asked to do a  Surveillance pull. Everything went bad and we almost wiped. Then I notice: I don't have surveillance. I have Improved Surveil. That can't be right? After all this time? So I look in my book. It's not there. Needless to say I feel STUPID.So I go to the broker, buy the AD1 version and scribe it, only it's STILL not in my book. I of course /bugged it but haven't heard anything yet. Has anyone else ever had this happen or have any insight as [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is going on?
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:22 PM   #2
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The only problem i can think of, is you bought the app4 of the spell, and scribed it, but their are other CA infront of it in the book. Atleast, thats what i would think, being a 70 ability and all it should be at the front right? (I had m1 leg shot for the longest time at 70 because i didn't want to shell out for m1 snaring shot, and when i finally scribed it, i looked back near the 50s :smileymad: )

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Old 12-18-2006, 08:41 PM   #3
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Dude, that sucks!  Improved suveil doesn't quite work like surveillance.  Yes, you have to get that fixed fast.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:28 PM   #4
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I've sorted by level, I've sorted by type and I've used the default. It's not in my book. I've /bugged it but haven't seen a responce yet.
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Old 12-20-2006, 02:43 AM   #5
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Hate to break it to ya, but having Improved Surveil over Surveillance had nothing to do with your wipe.  They are the EXACT same spell (same spell line) except the higher lvl one reduces hate by more.  I've been 70 for months now and only got the lvl 70 one fairly recently; had no bearing on my pulls.  I'm guessing someone cast something too soon and the mob socialed some buddies over.Now if the spell itself isn't showing up in your book, then yes that needs to be /bugged.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:23 PM   #6
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What exactly is a Surveil pull?  Besides the obvious, "You pull with Survil, duh!" comments. 

I mean what does it do?

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Old 12-20-2006, 08:25 PM   #7
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With the level 70 Surveilance, you don't (I have HEARD) get social agro. It also makes it easy for the MT to get agro away from you.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:30 PM   #8
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Taeolen wrote:

What exactly is a Surveil pull?  Besides the obvious, "You pull with Survil, duh!" comments. 

I mean what does it do?




Surviellance pulls no social aggro, only the targeted encounter. It has a 35 meter range, just the same as your bow. And since its a deaggro, you will only have 1 point of hate if its used to pull, making it super easy for the tank to get aggro.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:32 PM   #9
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Cool, have been wondering what it was.  Have a few more levels....well, more than a few to go till then.  SMILEY
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:35 PM   #10
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Teksun wrote:
With the level 70 Surveilance, you don't (I have HEARD) get social agro.

It also makes it easy for the MT to get agro away from you.


True.  This is how Improved Surveil is also supposed to work.  I don't know if it still is, but it was broken.  It did generate social aggro, just not as much as an arrow shot.  It sounds like it's still broken though.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:37 PM   #11
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ONLY the lvl 70 Surveilance pulls with NO social agro.Anything else will get varying levels of social agro.
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:00 AM   #12
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As of today its been, fixed, nerf'd, what the Fark ever..

No mention in the notes, not a gawd dam single word.

back to go old body pulling FOR THE FARKING LOSS..

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Old 12-21-2006, 11:28 AM   #13
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If this change was intended, I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. Maybe it was just because rangers hadn't been nerfed for a couple of weeks(just kidding)Previously, this ability provided a useful addition to a group's pulling options rather that the tank edging forward for a proximity pull.I cannot see how adding social agro to this ability improves the game at all. If devs are looking at predator abilities it would be nice if something was done about Hawk Dive.
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:33 PM   #14
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Barramundi wrote:
If this change was intended, I'd like to know the reasoning behind it. Maybe it was just because rangers hadn't been nerfed for a couple of weeks(just kidding)

Previously, this ability provided a useful addition to a group's pulling options rather that the tank edging forward for a proximity pull.

I cannot see how adding social agro to this ability improves the game at all. If devs are looking at predator abilities it would be nice if something was done about Hawk Dive.




If it was intended, and Im sure it was, it was to bring in in line with the rest of the survail line. All the previous survail arts would draw social, so if this was the exception, then it wasnt working as intended. I know you dont want to hear it, but thats the reason behind it. Devs have stated that fact before. And yes, you can say its been working like that for as long as we have had it, but that doesnt mean thats how it was supposed to function.
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:42 PM   #15
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Doesn't stop them from keeping us informed though does it, and I have to say anybody who thought this wasn't going to get brought into line with the rest of the series was deluding themselves.
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:49 PM   #16
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Oh I completely agree that it should have been mentioned in the update notes...  I hate when they ninja stuff.
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Old 12-21-2006, 05:24 PM   #17
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Thanks for answering my question Nesse, but what I should have asked is why does the surveil line have to cause social agro? Is it unbalancing the game in some respect  or does it create difficulties on the pvp server? In the early days of eq2 stalk/surveil abilities could pull mobs back to the group without attacking the ranger at all. Seems to me it was a great predator defining ability, now it is just a stealth with deagro.
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Old 12-21-2006, 06:36 PM   #18
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Anyone who's had a chance to raid some of the new zones (particularly EH or MMCIS) .. may have some understanding why they might have made the change now. 

It made raiding a little  easier and quicker (knowing which to pull and which to leave) ... perhaps more then what the developers/producers wanted.

 

Or it might just have been something on the backburner of their list of Things to Do which they finally got around to doing  .. "Fix Surveillance" to function the same as its earlier versions.

Another possible reason was to give rangers more emphasis to consider taking "Hooked Arrow" .. and making rangers more unique/specialised for pulling .. as assassins no longer share the duties of pulling for raids/groups.

 

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Old 12-21-2006, 08:22 PM   #19
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A "fix" that nerfs an ability is still a nerf.   All nerfs should be addressed in the notes.  No exceptions.  Anything less makes people speculate as to why it was done and increases animosity.
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:31 PM   #20
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Gareorn wrote:
A "fix" that nerfs an ability is still a nerf.   All nerfs should be addressed in the notes.  No exceptions.  Anything less makes people speculate as to why it was done and increases animosity.

Gareorn is right, but at this point...it's pointless to speculate. Better to enjoy the holidays for now instead of worrying about things like this. Hopefully this gets addressed at some point. :smileyhappy:
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Old 12-22-2006, 04:11 AM   #21
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As I noted in a reply in the similar thread in this forum, there is some minor hope for ranger pulling.  I have respeced to the AA Hook Arrow and it does work to single out mobs.   However, there is good news and bad news about it.Bad news is the range is 25 m, which makes the raid usefullness questionable in some cases I think, but it may work in many.  Other bad news is its not a de-aggro pull, which means you better have someone grabbing your aggro asap or you gonna die if you pull named epics this way.  In fact, the ability states your next melee attack will be a crit attack, which wont help your aggro either, lol.Also has a 2 min reuse timer, which may not hurt too much on raid mobs, but might make it a pain for solo pulling.Not sure if the other AA line which increase arrow range applies to this ability or not, but it should. I had to despec that to spec Hook Arrow so I wont know personally for a while.  Before, the 25 m range attacks were increased to 29 m range with the alternate AA.Anyway, I also hate this change, Surveilance was one of the things that made me fell truely usefull on some raids.Corwin D'Amber - 70 Ranger on Antonia Bayle
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Old 12-22-2006, 04:32 AM   #22
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Was reading somewhere that PvP rangers were useing it in cities to argo pets into combat. Was that True? If so they did put that in the patch notes.

 

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Old 12-22-2006, 08:18 AM   #23
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This is ridiculous because this is the one way we had an utility in a group. It is even more ridiculous that it is not even mentioned in the patch notes.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:54 AM   #24
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Sigh..........
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Old 12-22-2006, 01:28 PM   #25
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Barramundi wrote:[...] why does the surveil line have to cause social agro? Is it unbalancing the game in some respect  or does it create difficulties on the pvp server? In the early days of eq2 stalk/surveil abilities could pull mobs back to the group without attacking the ranger at all. Seems to me it was a great predator defining ability, now it is just a stealth with deagro.

Barramundi,It is so simple: It is (was?) one of the few group utility type things that Rangers still have (had?).  If this is a PvP related nerf, imnsho, SoE can go pound gritty silica up its orfice of egress...-Smoothie70 RangerMistmoore

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Old 12-22-2006, 02:53 PM   #26
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Ruldayen wrote:

Was reading somewhere that PvP rangers were useing it in cities to argo pets into combat. Was that True? If so they did put that in the patch notes.

Ruldayen



Yeah, and again we are at the usual suspect, PvP. Where exactly does it say in the patch notes? I see nothing related to Surveillance or PvP.
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:51 PM   #27
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I'd love more information on Hook Arrow
 
First of all the range.  Are you SURE the range is 25 meters?  Do you use a shortbow?  Because with a long bow all my attack CAs seem to be the range of the bow 35 meters.  Have you tried using Hook Arrow with a long bow?
 
You said they arrive angry, are they appearing and immediately engaging?  Do you have time to elude or surveillance while a tank taunts?  Even if its only a second?  Have you tried having intercession, or other aggro switching cas placed upon you before the pull so it switches to them?
 
Do they bring any social with them?
 
Do they bring their linked critters with them or ONLY that mob, thereby breaking the encounter from multiple to one? 
 
If I'm going to waste 20 AAs for a substitute pulling CA I'd love the answers.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:07 PM   #28
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I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  SMILEY

Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton. 

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Old 12-22-2006, 11:55 PM   #29
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Jeris Nefzen wrote:

I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  SMILEY

Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton. 



Not a good idea.  Now that I can't surv pull, I'm going to depend on the pet pulls.

Edit:  Just wanted to add.  This isn't just a nerf to predators, it's a nerf to your entire raid party.

Message Edited by Gareorn on 12-22-2006 10:59 AM

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Old 12-23-2006, 12:22 AM   #30
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Gareorn wrote:


Jeris Nefzen wrote:

I say fine... let the summoners die on the pull instead of the preds.  /Washes hands from pulling mobs  SMILEY

Seriously though, if this was overpowering to the predators (being able to skip content), then they should also do the same for summoners.  How many people you know use pet pulls to grab targets?  Me too... a ton. 



Not a good idea.  Now that I can't surv pull, I'm going to depend on the pet pulls.

Edit:  Just wanted to add.  This isn't just a nerf to predators, it's a nerf to your entire raid party.

Message Edited by Gareorn on 12-22-2006 10:59 AM



 

If this was an intended nerf (which I think it probably was, but just my speculation) so that we wouldn't skip content, it should be done for all classes, not just a select few.  Mind you, I am not advocating for that.  I am just saying if that was the reasoning behind the change, then it should be for all classes.   Unfortunately we are all speculating about why, so this is just one possibility.  I would prefer to be able to pull one target out.  It was one of the things I got to do on a regular basis not only in raids but also in regular groups.  As a matter of fact, I wish it were still 50m instead of 35m.  But it doesn't look like either of those things are going to happen, so I guess I will just deal with it.  (FWIW, I was joking... trying not to take rangering too seriously.. it's bad for the blood pressure.  SMILEY  )

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