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Old 12-23-2006, 01:45 AM   #31
Ruldayen

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jarlaxle888 wrote:


Yeah, and again we are at the usual suspect, PvP. Where exactly does it say in the patch notes? I see nothing related to Surveillance or PvP.


 Patch notes

*** Gameplay ***

- Gorenaire and Talendor have had their resistances lowered except for their affinity elements (cold and fire respectively).

- Talendor's AE has been changed from being unresistable to now able to be resisted by high heat resistances.  Gorenaire's AE's did not have this problem and remain unchanged.

- The issue causing various item reversions such as items becoming unattuned has been resolved.

- In city zones, Stalk and Surveillance can no longer be used to force pets into attacking when they are set to protect/guard.

 

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Old 12-23-2006, 10:13 AM   #32
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huh...city zones? Since when does city zones encompass the whole of norrath plus some SMILEY Btw has anyone seen or heard anything from a GM/Red name on these boards recently?This really blows as it makes it even more difficult to solo let alone offer some sort of utility. merry christmas everyone...compliments of SoE SMILEY
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Old 12-23-2006, 12:17 PM   #33
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Okay.. The theory to put more emphasis on a ranger pulling with Hook Arrow now, is hogwash.Hook Arrow generates as much aggro to everything around the target as a normal arrow shot does.. Add to that the apparently high rate of failing to hook your target ( I get a failed hook seems every 2-3 tries both PvE and PvP).  Surveillance was the best skill Rangers had for PvE, the Best.  It gave us a reason to be in a group.Yeah it made a few zones a little easier / quicker, made raids a little less stressful but both Rangers and Assassins could do it. So it's not like it was a 1-class-only sort of deal. I've /bugged it, my guildmates have /bugged, a lot of Rangers I know have /bugged it.IMO it should be set back.  What's the point of having an in-combat DeAgro / Stealth as a lv.70 skill when it's now only slightly better than it's predacessor?Besides, good Rangers on Raids take enough care of their DPS not to draw Agro in the first place and we got Elude to ditch it when we get it anyway.First we're gypped by our highest damage spell being an Ancient Teaching, then we're gypped on EoF AAs (just go look at an Assassin's new tree sometime).Our Skills are below par compared to most of the other classes in the game.. Our only real advantage is we can do consistant damage instead of burst damage in a Raid.. wooped de doo. That "consistant" damage requires either A) you're a woodworker / friends with a woodworker or B) Rich enough to afford 2p / Raid in Arrows Alone.. that's bare minimum costs, not counting poisons and potions.Really thinking the Dev's need to reevaluate the Ranger class again and bring it inline with the others.Furies, Wardens, Templars have all outdamaged me with ease.. HEALING classes, you know the classes that were designed to be non-offensive curative classes? they're out damaging a class that was designed as pure DPS... no-one else see a problem with that picture?Everyday I come closer and closer to wanting to betray my geared up 70 Ranger to become an Assassin, starting almost fresh with Gear since I have mostly Relic pieces now. 
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Old 12-23-2006, 07:26 PM   #34
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rain420 wrote:Okay.. The theory to put more emphasis on a ranger pulling with Hook Arrow now, is hogwash.Hook Arrow generates as much aggro to everything around the target as a normal arrow shot does.. Add to that the apparently high rate of failing to hook your target ( I get a failed hook seems every 2-3 tries both PvE and PvP).  Surveillance was the best skill Rangers had for PvE, the Best.  It gave us a reason to be in a group.Yeah it made a few zones a little easier / quicker, made raids a little less stressful but both Rangers and Assassins could do it. So it's not like it was a 1-class-only sort of deal. I've /bugged it, my guildmates have /bugged, a lot of Rangers I know have /bugged it.IMO it should be set back.  What's the point of having an in-combat DeAgro / Stealth as a lv.70 skill when it's now only slightly better than it's predacessor?Besides, good Rangers on Raids take enough care of their DPS not to draw Agro in the first place and we got Elude to ditch it when we get it anyway.First we're gypped by our highest damage spell being an Ancient Teaching, then we're gypped on EoF AAs (just go look at an Assassin's new tree sometime).Our Skills are below par compared to most of the other classes in the game.. Our only real advantage is we can do consistant damage instead of burst damage in a Raid.. wooped de doo. That "consistant" damage requires either A) you're a woodworker / friends with a woodworker or B) Rich enough to afford 2p / Raid in Arrows Alone.. that's bare minimum costs, not counting poisons and potions.Really thinking the Dev's need to reevaluate the Ranger class again and bring it inline with the others.Furies, Wardens, Templars have all outdamaged me with ease.. HEALING classes, you know the classes that were designed to be non-offensive curative classes? they're out damaging a class that was designed as pure DPS... no-one else see a problem with that picture?Everyday I come closer and closer to wanting to betray my geared up 70 Ranger to become an Assassin, starting almost fresh with Gear since I have mostly Relic pieces now. 

Assassins have the advantage without the EoF aa's, with the EoF aa's its ment to ballance the two classes.. Please step back and think about this.Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.Could you please post some parsings on this subject? I havent seen any fury/templar/warden/defiler etc do more than 400 consistantly.. I realize a fury can AE for quite abit, so thats why I am asking for zone parsings.. If you yourself are doing 1k average, your on the lower/middle end of being a ranger, if your hitting 1.5k+ every fight and healers are holding that dps then that seriously needs to be looked into.. But as things are, I dont see that in my parsings, the healers that I know etc.. I dont know anything abou tyou or your character, so please educate me.
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Old 12-23-2006, 09:37 PM   #35
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/snip

LoreLady wrote:
Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.

You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox
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Old 12-23-2006, 10:04 PM   #36
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GTaubin wrote:
/snip

LoreLady wrote:
Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.

You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox

And I completely agree with you. SMILEY
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Old 12-24-2006, 05:29 AM   #37
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GTaubin wrote:
/snip

LoreLady wrote:

Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.





You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].


/stepoffsoapbox



I can only say 'amen'.
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Old 12-24-2006, 06:02 AM   #38
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I was just doing a quest in Loping Plains for the Sonborn camp or whatever. I have no trouble pulling only the gremlin tricksters out of the gremlin muses with the surveil line.Matter of fact and embarassment, I'm using M1 Improved Surveil, instead of Surveillance. Thanks to this thread, I realized I hadn't upgraded it since I was 70 in the summer.Rah
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Old 12-24-2006, 09:04 AM   #39
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Those can be arrow pulled too.
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Old 12-24-2006, 03:31 PM   #40
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GTaubin wrote:
/snip

LoreLady wrote:
Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.

You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]./stepoffsoapbox

Obviously you're still stuck in the KoS mindset.  Every expansion it seems like the "top" dps gets shuffled a bit.  For EoF it looks like it's going to be necro's (still), wizzie's, and swashies.  Once everyone has their 100 AA's I'd expect rangers to outparse assassins.  In DoF no one could touch rangers.  Everyone has their time in the limelight, and I'm ok with that.  I do have a slight problem with classes with much more utility (necro's especially, but also swashies) being able to consistently out dps the supposed T1 classes. SMILEY  What's the point in rolling a sorceror or predator if I could bring more dps and more utility (rez, heal, feign death, mana regen, group buffs) to the raid by rolling a necro instead?Even without the T8 ammo, a ranger can easily break 1k dps zonewide, which is nothing to sneer at.  Our ranger does anyway, and we're a non-uber raiding alliance as well.Alright, I'm done stirring the pot.  I just hopped over to see what you all were saying about the surveilance change. SMILEY
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Old 12-25-2006, 03:37 AM   #41
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whytakemine wrote:


GTaubin wrote:
/snip

LoreLady wrote:

Arrow woe's go away once you get the ichorstrand/bazkul.. But untill then your stuck in the mudd for arrows, you will also notice that things change rather drematiccly once you get t8 ammo.





You know, being a NON-UBERGUILDED-RAIDING RANGER, this really gets my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I don't post on the ranger forums much at all, but, I am sick of hearing how much better thigs will be if we get a certain kind of bow.  One of 2 of them. I do raid, however, I have to raid with an alliance, and we will probably not see these for a VERY long time.  Why the hell is it, I will be sub-par to everyone else on a raid until I am lucky enough, and we are equipped well enough, to get one of these arrows.  What about the 90% of the ranger population that will NEVER see these bows?  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SOE throw the rest of us a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing bone here.  I am sick of this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].


/stepoffsoapbox


Obviously you're still stuck in the KoS mindset.  Every expansion it seems like the "top" dps gets shuffled a bit.  For EoF it looks like it's going to be necro's (still), wizzie's, and swashies.  Once everyone has their 100 AA's I'd expect rangers to outparse assassins.  In DoF no one could touch rangers.  Everyone has their time in the limelight, and I'm ok with that.  I do have a slight problem with classes with much more utility (necro's especially, but also swashies) being able to consistently out dps the supposed T1 classes. SMILEY  What's the point in rolling a sorceror or predator if I could bring more dps and more utility (rez, heal, feign death, mana regen, group buffs) to the raid by rolling a necro instead?

Even without the T8 ammo, a ranger can easily break 1k dps zonewide, which is nothing to sneer at.  Our ranger does anyway, and we're a non-uber raiding alliance as well.

Alright, I'm done stirring the pot.  I just hopped over to see what you all were saying about the surveilance change. SMILEY


Which is why we can never keep anyone happy SMILEY If we turn around and give summoners/rouges nerfs so that sorc's/preds stay ontop.. Theres going to be a huge whine there - look how rouges are taking AR lol SMILEY. And if we have preds/sorc's ontop of everyone else the summoners/rouges will complain that they arent doing enough dps...

So... Who do we keep happy?

If there is evidence that rouges/summoners are outdamaging preds/summoners I would like to see it.. Unfortunatly, I dont have 100 aa myself.. And neither does most in my guild I cant judge, I can judge on parsings ive seen from other guilds that are still comming in (and thank you guys btw).. And from my own experiances..  If you have zonewide parsings that show summoners/rouges REDICULUSLY high  I would like to see it.

Message Edited by LoreLady on 12-24-2006 02:39 PM

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Old 12-25-2006, 04:58 AM   #42
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im thinking there may have been a ninja patch yesturday to fix this because i have been survalance pulling  mobs near social agro yesturday and i havnt had any social agro and this was down in klakanon i need to try other places again
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:02 AM   #43
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well i tried it in mistmore castle cant survanlance anything in there qwithout agroin ther whole zone so seems to be working on in certain places which is wierd
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Old 12-26-2006, 01:39 AM   #44
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Didn't work so well in Kaladim today either.
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Old 12-27-2006, 04:39 AM   #45
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It worked as it always did in Loping Plains a few days ago.  I was pulling mobs out of the middle of other mobs with no aggro problems.  Maybe its the level of the mob?  Greens and blues came easily, but I didn't try it on even con and higher mobs.
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Old 12-27-2006, 10:14 AM   #46
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just recently i learned that wizzies/warlocks can do surviellance pulls(old style ofc).Is this intended?Since they get 2 roots and other means of stopping mobs briefly.And they also get a long recast temp mit buff when their HP drops below 30%. what is SoE playing at...why can the heavy nukers do things that us predators are supposed to the experts at.Presently it sucks to solo as a ranger as any social aggro and we are kinda stuffed SMILEY Not asking for sorcerors to be nerfed but its by  far unfair imo to have them have a skill that allows them to pinpoint a named amongst social aggro and pull out,before root/nuking it to oblivion. Maybe im taking this So-Called fix a little worse than others.As it stands presently, surviel CA is remarkably similar to the Concusive spell that wiz/warlocks get.It reduces aggro and interupts target briefly,surviel is reduced aggro and stealth.See the comparisons? Im gonna suggest that wizards pull mobs on raids from now on...as their warlock counter parts die enough as it is SMILEY Your views on this would be interesting. I also have a lvl70 warlock alt so not like id be asking for a nerf but more so a fix. Its xmas after all...better to give than recieve....
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Old 12-27-2006, 07:58 PM   #47
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So, let me get this straight.  Monks/Bruisers are the best scouting classes (FD allows them to go places no scout can go) and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?
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Old 12-27-2006, 10:05 PM   #48
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Gareorn wrote:
and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?



Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.
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Old 12-27-2006, 10:31 PM   #49
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Starness wrote:


Gareorn wrote:
and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?



Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.

Nope.  I meant what I said.  I was refering to Doyler2k's post about the spell Concusive.  Pet pulling does gain social aggro and is only useful if you have the distance to support that kind of pull.  Definately not very useful in zones that respawn.
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Old 12-27-2006, 11:45 PM   #50
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Granted that forums are all about hearsay but I'd like some definitive post-LU30 test results with the whole line of surveillance.

It does not do us any good to have some rangers saying "this pulls without aggro" and other saying "this pulls the whole room".

I'd like to know if at least the top 3 surveillance line CAs work only for a deaggro stealth (what it was intended for against normal mobs, heroic mobs, epic mobs, mobs high level then you) or if they are pulling CAs.

My own attempts to surveillance A3 pull in labs on mobs we always pull was unsuccessful  just following LU 30.  It pulled aggro.  I have since Mastered it up and would not mind trying the lesser surveillance lines in labs.  If my guild lets me experiment I'll post it up.  But it would be nice from the lower-level rangers all the way through to see if we can get specific information or if people are "successfully pulling with it, because its really not a social mob anyway."  I'd like to at least dispel any rumors of what works and doesn't.  It also would not suprise me if when SOE "mixed lvl 70" it broke the ones before so I'd be curious to know what is really going on with the line or if it can be consigned once and for all to deaggro/stealth only.

Testing it against solo, grouped, heroic, epic and higher level mobs then you would be very useful to know.

 

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Old 12-28-2006, 12:31 AM   #51
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Gareorn wrote:


Starness wrote:


Gareorn wrote:
and Wizzies/Warlocks are the best pulling classes.  Does anyone else see anything wrong with this picture?



Do you mean Conjy's and Necros? I fail to see how wizzies and warlocks pull well... Pet pulling though, that's another thing all together.

Nope.  I meant what I said.  I was refering to Doyler2k's post about the spell Concusive.  Pet pulling does gain social aggro and is only useful if you have the distance to support that kind of pull.  Definately not very useful in zones that respawn.



Oh yeah, totaly forgot about the Concusive changes. Seems strange that they'd make our deagros social and not another classes. Perhaps an over sight...
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Old 12-28-2006, 02:19 PM   #52
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oversight on predator's behalf...otherwise i cant see how other classes are given/allowed advantage f pulling without social aggro.imho they should just unbug/refix surviellance to its original form.Otherwise as predetors we aint exactly stealthy if we cant single pick a mob and kill it. Still would like to see a SoE dev/red name comment on this problem/bug SMILEYIt doesnt take much really to let our loyal and mostly dedicated rangers the reason to go on...
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Old 12-28-2006, 06:45 PM   #53
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I know what you mean.  Even if this wasn't in the Ranger's arsenal, you'd think it would at least work for an Assassin.  I mean, what kind of an assassin would you be if you couldn't sneak in undetected to kill your target?  Isn't that the sort of thing you'd expect an assassin to be able to do from a roleplaying perspective?
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:07 PM   #54
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If we could stop mourning about it and kvetching on other classes and do some testing to see just what we DO have currently I think we might see something very screwed up and that is something I doubt was intended.

I could not do conclusive tests last night in the Labs because we just needed to get through it quickly and didn't have the healing.  What I did find out was this:

We do labs every week in about 2 hours they are very predictable pulls to us so we know when we'll get 2 mobs with social or not.  This was the second time I tried pulling in labs since the bork.  We had 4 rangers and 1 assassin with various levels of Surveil, Improved Surveil and Surveillance but I only used A3s and M1s to pull test.  And before anyone says anything, yes we have a LOT of rangers in my guild.  We've done labs with NO mages, this last time we had 2, its just the way the guild works sometimes, we get stuff done anyway (even Deathtoll).

First time in labs we tried using the A3 version and the A1 version of Surveillance level 70 on the trash mobs in the first part of the dungeon and it pulled social post LU 30 where it never had before.  It also pulled it in social at the Doomsworn Droag before Corsolander where it never had before.

Last night I wanted to see if an A3 version of Improved Surveil and A3 of Surveil did the same.  It did NOT.  They did not pull social aggro and pulling with those two in Labs on the yellow heroic 3^^^s operated just like the old Surveillance lvl 70.  Tried again with Surveillance M1.  Social Aggro pulled.

So the lvl 50s and 40s of the line worked on the 4 pulls we tried.  The lvl 70 failed by pulling social.

I could look at a map and tell you exactly where the pulls occurred given time and this was not conclusive because the MT would not let us test before the Doomsworn Droag again.  I suggest all of get out your OLDER versions of Surveillance and test them in each instance you go in to.

It might work in one instance and not in another.  It might be that in "fixing" lvl 70 they broke the earlier versions again.  Somehow it seems consistant in the line that what lvl 70 IS is *not* what the others of the line ARE.  I have an Assassin in my guild in her 30s saying she's using surveil pulls in Runnyeye without any aggro problems.

It IS possible in adjusting for no pet aggro in the city zones they DID bork Surveillance.  Its also possible in 'fixing' lvl 70 they threw off the whole rest of the line again.  Its possible some zones work and some dont.  Do some tests, try it. bring back answers.  I'll copy this to the Assassin page so they can test too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Old 12-28-2006, 09:33 PM   #55
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It's also possible that the lower level versions didn't pull aggro because they were resisted by the pulled target.  Not that this is a problem.  Because it if works, who really cares why it works as long as the pull is successful.  This is only speculation, but we have a lab run scheduled for tonight so I'll be looking to do some testing (if allowed).
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Old 12-28-2006, 09:45 PM   #56
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Well thats the thing a white and yellow heroic ^^^ mob should or could have resisted the Surveil and Improved Surveil pulls all together.  In which case they should have just stood there and never come as I have witnessed with resisted surveillance pulls.  But that is not what happened.  Surveil and Imp Surveil worked for us the 4 pulls we used them on.  Master 1 Surveillance failed each time and pulled social aggro.

If you can test, please do so.

 

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Old 12-29-2006, 06:32 PM   #57
Gareorn

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10/28/06 Testing in Lab..
 
APP4 Surveil failed all tests
AD1 Improved Surveil failed all tests
AD3 Surveillance failed all tests
 
Who do I send my repair bill to again? :smileytongue:
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Old 12-29-2006, 11:10 PM   #58
Badaxe Ba

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Tested improved surveil in valdoons last night, failed.  Used adept I.
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Old 01-10-2007, 09:18 PM   #59
S1llyRabbit

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What's the latest on the lvl 70 surveil master?  Is it bugged, nerfed, or what?  I used it in New Tunaria a couple weeks ago and pulled another mob outside the one I surveiled (happened several times).  I've been afraid to use it in a group or raid ever since.edit...Oh, forgot to mention that I used it in COV 2 nights ago on a room full of werewolves (non-linked)...it failed.

Message Edited by S1llyRabbit on 01-10-2007 11:30 AM

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Old 01-10-2007, 09:32 PM   #60
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The non-social aggro aspect has been removed.  It still puts you in stealth and dumps aggro.
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