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Old 11-27-2008, 05:10 PM   #31
Sorffats

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[email protected] wrote:

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Snares in this game are overwhelmingly OP. I'll admit, from all tose years playing EQ1 pvp where snares and roots were near impossible to land (insane resistability) and charms and fears weren't allowed to be cast on player targets (they were at first, but there wre too many complaints about lvl 4 enchanters charming lvl 1 and 2 noobs and sending them to attack guards and complaints about necro's fearing entire groups of people at orc camps only to suffer them xp loss), is probably a big reason it took me a while to get used to being easily feared, snared, and rooted.

Also, admittingly, the big problem with snares is ranger snares. Now that swashies don't have reach, it's not that big of a deal that they snare me, because they still have to be in melee range to me to do all their dmg. But the biggest ranged attk dpser in the game has the biggest, most, and longest lasting snares ... AND ON TOP OF THAT THE RANGER CAN STACK EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ON YOU!

Here is what I suggest. Let's say ranger_01 is looking for a pvp target. He see's me, bruiser_01 running by and he needs an easy fighter update. So the first thing he does is he uses his sniping bow shot for the snare. Ok, that's got me, it's not that strong but slows me enough for him to get close enough to put his melee range snare on me that may be mastered and has a greater snare %. Great, all fine and dandy BUT it should overwrite the previous snare, not stack with it. Now he's bow attacking me while I'm snared and I can't get to him, fettering poision procs. Instead of even more stacking off snares (and I'm running at like -70 runspeed now), the fettering poison should do either 1 of 3 things.

1. Either the snare overwrites a weaker snare

2. The snare won't land because a better snare is already on the pvp target

3. Or the target has an immunity to snare timer up so can't be snared again for half a minute.

So you sprint and Sonic fist/Drag or Mantis leap, hit 2 or 3 CA's and dead ranger... So what the problem???

Also if you are a Brusier and the ranger landed every snar attack on you; you are either grey or have the worset gear in the game.

As a Bruiser rangers should be cake for you, you are one of the few classes that can kill 2 ranger solo by yourself at the same time L2P

L2P?  That is your intelligent answer?  I have decent gear and I am a decent player (you can see my gear from the eq2 website and my signature has my pvp stats on it).   As far as actually killing a ranger, that isn't so difficult for me; getting to them is.    As far as sonic punch + drag, you obviously don't know the troubles with line of sight with that.   The actual cast of sonic punch may go off (puttint me in combat, of course) but depending on if I have a distance completely void of divits, hills, bumps, and etc. dictates whether I actually get teleported to my target.  IMO, sonic punch is broken in a way that it still may cast even if there is some reason I don't actually get teleported to my target.

Don't think I don't try sprinting to them, my runspeed is still in the negative.

I really shouldn't respond to people who's answere is "L2P", those answers only show how much of an idiot one really is.

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Old 11-27-2008, 05:16 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

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Snares in this game are overwhelmingly OP. I'll admit, from all tose years playing EQ1 pvp where snares and roots were near impossible to land (insane resistability) and charms and fears weren't allowed to be cast on player targets (they were at first, but there wre too many complaints about lvl 4 enchanters charming lvl 1 and 2 noobs and sending them to attack guards and complaints about necro's fearing entire groups of people at orc camps only to suffer them xp loss), is probably a big reason it took me a while to get used to being easily feared, snared, and rooted.

Also, admittingly, the big problem with snares is ranger snares. Now that swashies don't have reach, it's not that big of a deal that they snare me, because they still have to be in melee range to me to do all their dmg. But the biggest ranged attk dpser in the game has the biggest, most, and longest lasting snares ... AND ON TOP OF THAT THE RANGER CAN STACK EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ON YOU!

Here is what I suggest. Let's say ranger_01 is looking for a pvp target. He see's me, bruiser_01 running by and he needs an easy fighter update. So the first thing he does is he uses his sniping bow shot for the snare. Ok, that's got me, it's not that strong but slows me enough for him to get close enough to put his melee range snare on me that may be mastered and has a greater snare %. Great, all fine and dandy BUT it should overwrite the previous snare, not stack with it. Now he's bow attacking me while I'm snared and I can't get to him, fettering poision procs. Instead of even more stacking off snares (and I'm running at like -70 runspeed now), the fettering poison should do either 1 of 3 things.

With Ranger AA's I can reach the snare cap with all 3 of my snares and my fettering is at 60% ish adding another snare will not reduce speed past -75%

1. Either the snare overwrites a weaker snare

As far as I know that is the way it is for the speed reduction, adding another snare will give less chance of the speed reduction being taken off.

2. The snare won't land because a better snare is already on the pvp target

See above

3. Or the target has an immunity to snare timer up so can't be snared again for half a minute.

Would really kill off the majority of the ranger class if this was to happen and I am not talking about the mythical ones but the ones that need to kite for a kill. Ranger in melee = dead ranger, the epic can change this but this is how it is for the everyday ranger.

 So yeah, -70 was a bit of an exaggeration, but -40 isn't an exaggeration.

1.   That is NOT the way it is with speed reduction.  I can see myself getting slower as each snare is stacked up.  And even if it DID do that with speed reduction, one snare shouldn't even land on me if I already have a snare on me.   A stronger snare should overwrite a weaker snare; which means, it should take the place of, not add to a detriment spot.

2.  See above as well

3.  Rangers will still be the best ranged class in the game.  They'll still have the OP autoattack on their bow attacks.  They'll still be able to stun and root.   But just because their snares cause them to be OP doesn't mean the other classes should suffer for a poorly thought out design of a class/ability.

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Old 11-27-2008, 08:14 PM   #33
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[email protected] wrote:

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If there's snare mitigation there has to be stun mitigation, mez mitigation, root mit, etc. Can't be just snares only. Snares can be overpowered but they can break as well. All CC abilities are pretty overpowered, but anyone with root/snare immunities/reductions, along with at least 50% run speed, can catch any ranged class easy. Just because stun, stiffle, mez, grants immunities doesn't mean you can't completely disable someone completely, just chain each CC effect until the opponent is dead.

This is just another "nerf rangers only and not the other overpowered classes" thread that this implies along with the auto attack thread in my opinion. I say to have EVERY CC ability be on 1 single immunity that lasts for just so long, then we can all have a chance to fight back. And by the way, snares don't stack. 70% +70% speed reduction will just give you the 70% speed reduction, not the 140% speed reduction. You can chain snare if thats what you all mean, but brigands and other classes with CC's can do the same thing, just with different effects. Even at -75% speed, if you started out with 100% run speed you still have 25% run speed to go, while the attacker (notably ranger for those who complain about them too much,) will have no bonus run speed unless sprinting.

As far as stun/mez/stifle et al. They have immunity timers, so you cannot chain stuns together, or stifles indefinately. However you can stack snares. I said so in the OP didnt i? There is a discrepancy between snares and the other CC. Furthermore, several skills that break yourself out of CC doesnt work on snares even though they are a kind of CC.

I'm afraid you misread my post. I meant that each CC effect has their own immune timer. With that in mind you can cast a stun first, a stiffle second, a root third etc. with casting the next CC AFTER the previous CC cancles. A stiffle will go off even when someone has a stun immunity. This can completely disable someone, which explains why certain classes are overpowered. Rangers get only snares to prevent a melee class to get on them, so remove that and just remove the ranger class then, since any brigand assassin, or any other top tier melee dps class can kill them within seconds. Snares dont have an immunity because they already have a chance to break anyway. If they get an immune timer, remove the chance to break the snare, otherwise, refer back to my other suggestions. 

No. Not all CC has immunity timers. Snares dont. Which is the whole point of my OP.

Classes with no innate cures are left to use potions. And potions refresh a lot slower than snares.

But sure, I'd love for snares to work like stuns or roots. Give snares an immunity timer and see people cure said snare and be snare immune for 2 minutes. Im ok with that too, but I'd prefer a change that doesnt quite screw the rangers and bards over quite that much.

Simple: Leave rangers and bards out of any snare changes?

Giving snares an immunity timer would not be fromt he caster PoV, it would be from the victim PoV as far as I can tell from the current immunities.

All CC abilities prevents people from attacking. It's okay to have at least one to help you win, or a little more on group on group fights, but having a ton of CC ability to completely disable and kill one person is rediculous. One night an illusionist almost killed 3 of my groupmates waiting on the rest of the group to show up, he killed 2 of us and died to our tank who had at least 10% hp left. 20+ seconds on mezzes is rediculous, especially if you can have an illusionist keep you locked down and giving you no chance to fight back, and able to cast multible mezzes on other people at the same it. It's also unfair for someone to mez you for that long to have their group come and gank you. All CC abilities shouldnt last for any more than 10 seconds in pvp, and should grant immunities to every other CC ability. There, we all have a chance to fight back if we want to.

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Old 11-28-2008, 01:20 AM   #34
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To try and argue that a guardian has viable abilities in PvP combat to compete with scouts is utter nonesense.

If you are trying to argue that the Gaurdian root is a good thing to use in PvP, then you haven't really had much experience PvPing on the guardian. That root is laughable. As Enoe stated, half the time you root yourself and the other guy doesn't get rooted at all (due to server lag). The root that comes with the mitigation buff... haha that snares you! what good does that do when you break the root, they run, you're snared?

We have 1 knockback stun, and it requires a shield to use. The fight is over before it refreshes to use again. If we're snared, the time it takes to cure it off with potions means we're already almost dead and a ranger can melee autoattack us dead. If you're trying to bring procs and tinkered things into the game, every other class has that too. There's no advantage.

Guardians absolutely have viable abilities to compete with scouts. I've killed scouts that have got the drop on me, so has Enoe and Im sure you have as well. Instead of looking at your abilities and thinking 'how could this help me kill a scout?' You're instead sitting in the corner and crying that its too hard.

I'm sorry that you can't think of a way to use the root. I admit it isnt perfect, it is however the ONLY root that has no resist/miss chance. Yes, if you try to use it near mobs you will agro them, but if they (Players) are in range, they are going to be rooted. If you're rooting yourself and not them, then you're failing to compensate for the lag. That isnt my fault. If I'm chasing someone, I will run PAST them on my screen and then hit the root, because I expect the lag and I compensate for it. I even have the ability hotkeyed in a place where I can hit it easily as soon as I notice them moving... just incase they use a potion to get rid of it. Having trouble with rangers? Get into their face (my guardian has 100% run speed until I hit someone) and then ROOT THEM in melee range. You'll get a few hits off before they can PBS you or cure the root. Watch for them moving again and cancel your root. Then start chasing them again. Use your temps while you're out of range. If you aren't in range of them, turn ranged auto-attack on and hit those temps. You wont be casting any CAs because you aren't in range. Use that time productively. Want to dual-wield but still use your shield bash? You CAN! Make your self a nice little pair of macros. In one have equip shield and then the shield bash, then in the other one have equip second weapon. Hit the first one, use your shield bash, then count to 2 and hit the second one. Problem solved. Best time to use your snare-root-proc mitigation temp buff? When you're fighting a melee class that WANTS to stay in range of you. Obviously you don't use it when you're fighting a ranger or when someone is kiting you.

Why shouldn't I bring procs and clickies into this? Yes, they're available to everyone. You want to know what would happen if no one used any clickies or proc items though? You would NEVER kill an enchanter. Assasins would also be extremely hard to kill.

You have a loser's mentality. With that mentality you will lose fights that you could easily have won. People like you are the reason this game is so easy. Instead of thinking about a solution you simply cry that its too hard. Your post was full of excuses. L2P

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Old 11-28-2008, 02:02 AM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

If there's snare mitigation there has to be stun mitigation, mez mitigation, root mit, etc. Can't be just snares only. Snares can be overpowered but they can break as well. All CC abilities are pretty overpowered, but anyone with root/snare immunities/reductions, along with at least 50% run speed, can catch any ranged class easy. Just because stun, stiffle, mez, grants immunities doesn't mean you can't completely disable someone completely, just chain each CC effect until the opponent is dead.

This is just another "nerf rangers only and not the other overpowered classes" thread that this implies along with the auto attack thread in my opinion. I say to have EVERY CC ability be on 1 single immunity that lasts for just so long, then we can all have a chance to fight back. And by the way, snares don't stack. 70% +70% speed reduction will just give you the 70% speed reduction, not the 140% speed reduction. You can chain snare if thats what you all mean, but brigands and other classes with CC's can do the same thing, just with different effects. Even at -75% speed, if you started out with 100% run speed you still have 25% run speed to go, while the attacker (notably ranger for those who complain about them too much,) will have no bonus run speed unless sprinting.

As far as stun/mez/stifle et al. They have immunity timers, so you cannot chain stuns together, or stifles indefinately. However you can stack snares. I said so in the OP didnt i? There is a discrepancy between snares and the other CC. Furthermore, several skills that break yourself out of CC doesnt work on snares even though they are a kind of CC.

I'm afraid you misread my post. I meant that each CC effect has their own immune timer. With that in mind you can cast a stun first, a stiffle second, a root third etc. with casting the next CC AFTER the previous CC cancles. A stiffle will go off even when someone has a stun immunity. This can completely disable someone, which explains why certain classes are overpowered. Rangers get only snares to prevent a melee class to get on them, so remove that and just remove the ranger class then, since any brigand assassin, or any other top tier melee dps class can kill them within seconds. Snares dont have an immunity because they already have a chance to break anyway. If they get an immune timer, remove the chance to break the snare, otherwise, refer back to my other suggestions. 

No. Not all CC has immunity timers. Snares dont. Which is the whole point of my OP.

I corrected that in my post, read the rest of it and then try to rebuttal, else don't argue without reading and paying attention.

Classes with no innate cures are left to use potions. And potions refresh a lot slower than snares.

But sure, I'd love for snares to work like stuns or roots. Give snares an immunity timer and see people cure said snare and be snare immune for 2 minutes. Im ok with that too, but I'd prefer a change that doesnt quite screw the rangers and bards over quite that much.

Simple: Leave rangers and bards out of any snare changes?

Giving snares an immunity timer would not be fromt he caster PoV, it would be from the victim PoV as far as I can tell from the current immunities.

Well obviously, and this isnt the issue I am talking about, but referr back to what i said before. Snares CAN BREAK! If they BREAK while immune, the immunity will be on them still and we have to cycle another round of some less worthy CC abilities, other than snare, which will rarely help us, the rangers. So pay attention please, or get out of the post.

All CC abilities prevents people from attacking. It's okay to have at least one to help you win, or a little more on group on group fights, but having a ton of CC ability to completely disable and kill one person is rediculous. One night an illusionist almost killed 3 of my groupmates waiting on the rest of the group to show up, he killed 2 of us and died to our tank who had at least 10% hp left. 20+ seconds on mezzes is rediculous, especially if you can have an illusionist keep you locked down and giving you no chance to fight back, and able to cast multible mezzes on other people at the same it. It's also unfair for someone to mez you for that long to have their group come and gank you. All CC abilities shouldnt last for any more than 10 seconds in pvp, and should grant immunities to every other CC abilit. There, w all have a chance to fight back if we want to.

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Old 11-28-2008, 06:03 AM   #36
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Well honestly I don't want to screw illys over since CC is their main thing, but come on. This was obviously an illy which had some form of stoneskin procing gear or something that kept him alive through a couple of CA's, auto attacks, etc. before he instant-mezz each one of us. We didn't have our healer at the time, but wouldnt matter anyways since he would be mezzed for 20 seconds or more anyways. No matter, no one with any ammount of vp gear should be able to kill that efficiently. Sure, they should get the upper hand among people with less gear, but against 3 people? I only find a problem with no cure mezz potions or signets in this one situation, else this wouldn't have been an issue, like there is for snares, roots, stun, stiffles etc. And if there is one, I'm sure as hell don't know about anything about it. Anyways, the enchanters have a right to rely on their CC abilities to win in pvp, but not to an extent which they can keep as much as a hole group mezzed, same thing for the other classes with their CC capabilities able to wipe out entire groups by themselves. Brigands, assassins, and other melee dps with crazy CC capabilities shouldn't rely on CC as much as the enchanters. Maybe a few to keep their opponents back turned for position attacks, and snares for rangers to keep using their ranged CA's, but the damage output in PvP is too great to have CCs right now, and some classes have more CC capabilities than they should have, which explains why they may be overpowered. If all damage was nerfed by at least 25%, giving more time to fight in pvp combat, maybe a 20 second mezz wouldn't be soo bad.

I agree with the idea at the end of your post: with dps getting higher and higher and fights getting shorter and shorter CCs get more and more powerful as their duration increase compared to the overall fight duration. A 2 seconds stun is annoying when the fight lasts 3 seconds SMILEY

That being said, I'm sorry but you are wrong about nerfing mezz. There are several well know counters for mezz available to every class. All the counters I know have something in common though: they take you to be prepared before you engage the enchanter. Which means if you are a tracker or grouped with a tracker and let an illusionnist mezz you when you are unprepared, you have no excuse.

Once mezz is broken you are one freedom of mind away from a dead enchanter.

Please also consider that several classes come with CC immunities, self cure while mezzed, and that CC immunity godspell is available to everyone who want it.

I think what happened is your group spotted that guy solo, expected an easy kill and grew overconfident. You ran to him unprepared, he mezzed you and proceeded to burn you down one after the other (so apparently none of you carried freedom of mind). You just got outplayed, it happens, deal with it but don't ask for CC nerf when it's all enchanters have.

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Old 11-28-2008, 07:51 AM   #37
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@Paikis

I think you should finally give up telling ppl how good our CC are.

I must admit i go outside solo and i still kill ppl. But i have few advantages:

1. uber gear - i have dps gear, defensive gear, survival-pvp gear with heal/ward procs. I have choice of weapon from pvp 2 hander, parting silk, ghost, mythical and so on.I have it all on macros so i change it on whatever enemy i drop.

2. Expirience - i spent hours on bbm docks dueling all classes, i learned their strong sides and weakneses. I learned how to kill them. 10k+ pvp kills doesnt hurt too.

3. I made myself few little twinks to see what other classes can do in pvp. It helped me to learn how to kill on guardian.

So point is i can kill 90% of ppl solo if they are not so uber gared like me. With same geared ppl i can kill only few classes. But im not talking about myself cause im still ok in pvp.

Just avg guardian with not so good gear have 0% chance to go out solo and kill stuff - unless they are unskilled solo greens. Why? casue guardian is 99% gear and autoattack dependable. 1% is our other skills including CC. So unless CC will not be at 10% i can say they are useless.

Just answer yourself. How many solo guardians are out there? And how many other classes go out solo? You may find out that guardian is least solo pvp class from them all. Does it tell you something? oh yea all guardians need to L2P they just dont know their class and how uber our CC are!!! Or just maybe they are all right and only you alone Paikis are wrong.

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Old 11-28-2008, 08:10 AM   #38
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I must just be super-duper awesome then. I've done the exact same things you said you've done Enoe. How many solo guardians do I see out PvPing? I think I saw one once... but then how many guardians do I see at all...? One per guild? Maybe two?

I think I'm going to buy some silicates, get my guard his spells back (haven't played him since I bought him back from exile) and then go PvPing. Might even fraps it. Shouldn't take me more than a month or two to get 3 minutes worth of fights.

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Old 11-28-2008, 10:25 AM   #39
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You have truba lock and coercer - answer yourself one thing: if all these toons would have same gear as guardian will you kill him easy on every one of your alts? Anser is simple guard will die and why? Cause of cc u have on these toons.

Rule 1 for all fights is guardian is useless in range - bow do some damage but not enough in most cases. So every player who knows how to keep guard on range (and u use cc for it) will kill him. Guardian has no ability which will help him to get close to target - like monk/bruiser for example. All our so called CC work only in melee range. So if u will not get there u will never use them SMILEY

To answer to your root aplication - i agree i do the same: run in front of enemy then root. BUT... this is only to finish chase/start combat. Basicaly you use it this way only if your enemy is weaker and he run from you to avoid combat. During combat as it is root works like i posted already in this topic, it may cause more harm then good to guardian.

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Old 11-28-2008, 03:09 PM   #40
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Thank you Paikis for all of the wonderful tips of how to PvP. I was completely unaware of how to play my character.

And I think you misunderstood me (partly because I didn't say it correctly). I didn't mean that by saying we can't compete with scouts that we can't kill them. I meant we can't compete with their utility and amount of utility based combat arts for PvP: stuns, stun-procs, snares, roots.

The one thing I do love about the guardian is we are the anti-melee scout. I only have problems with assassins with their mythicals.

Going out on your guardian and frapsing a bunch of fighths to show us you can PvP on him is beside the point. I am not arguing that, Enoe is not arguing that. We both know how to play our classes for what they can do. What we are arguing is that we don't have this "utility" to snare/root people that you speak of. It's not like i'm calling for Guardians to get some lovin' or anything.

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Old 11-28-2008, 05:45 PM   #41
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1) Remove Snares AND allow All Ranged CAs to be cast while moving.

2) Allow the Ranger Epic / Mythical to fire from melee range but remove the Damage Bonus from doing so.

3) Allow slower classes use of Snares, mainly Fighters. Snare abilities should be given out sparingly and not as powerful as they are currently.

Reason for change 2 is that it's pretty stupid a "Ranged Class" can hit Hook Arrow > PBS > Autoattack and kill most anyone.. all that damage is done from point blank and not at ranged at all, save for the initial Hook Arrow.

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Old 11-28-2008, 11:03 PM   #42
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Can anyone confirm (or deny) with screenshots if snares actually stack, or if the higher % just overwrites the lower % ones?

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Old 11-29-2008, 05:23 AM   #43
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Paikis wrote:

Can anyone confirm (or deny) with screenshots if snares actually stack, or if the higher % just overwrites the lower % ones?

Im pretty sure they used to stack cause when me and a brig buddy tossed our snares at the same time on someone they pretty much stopped moving. there is a cap on how much you can be snared though.

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Old 11-29-2008, 05:25 AM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

If there's snare mitigation there has to be stun mitigation, mez mitigation, root mit, etc. Can't be just snares only. Snares can be overpowered but they can break as well. All CC abilities are pretty overpowered, but anyone with root/snare immunities/reductions, along with at least 50% run speed, can catch any ranged class easy. Just because stun, stiffle, mez, grants immunities doesn't mean you can't completely disable someone completely, just chain each CC effect until the opponent is dead.

This is just another "nerf rangers only and not the other overpowered classes" thread that this implies along with the auto attack thread in my opinion. I say to have EVERY CC ability be on 1 single immunity that lasts for just so long, then we can all have a chance to fight back. And by the way, snares don't stack. 70% +70% speed reduction will just give you the 70% speed reduction, not the 140% speed reduction. You can chain snare if thats what you all mean, but brigands and other classes with CC's can do the same thing, just with different effects. Even at -75% speed, if you started out with 100% run speed you still have 25% run speed to go, while the attacker (notably ranger for those who complain about them too much,) will have no bonus run speed unless sprinting.

As far as stun/mez/stifle et al. They have immunity timers, so you cannot chain stuns together, or stifles indefinately. However you can stack snares. I said so in the OP didnt i? There is a discrepancy between snares and the other CC. Furthermore, several skills that break yourself out of CC doesnt work on snares even though they are a kind of CC.

I'm afraid you misread my post. I meant that each CC effect has their own immune timer. With that in mind you can cast a stun first, a stiffle second, a root third etc. with casting the next CC AFTER the previous CC cancles. A stiffle will go off even when someone has a stun immunity. This can completely disable someone, which explains why certain classes are overpowered. Rangers get only snares to prevent a melee class to get on them, so remove that and just remove the ranger class then, since any brigand assassin, or any other top tier melee dps class can kill them within seconds. Snares dont have an immunity because they already have a chance to break anyway. If they get an immune timer, remove the chance to break the snare, otherwise, refer back to my other suggestions. 

No. Not all CC has immunity timers. Snares dont. Which is the whole point of my OP.

I corrected that in my post, read the rest of it and then try to rebuttal, else don't argue without reading and paying attention.

Mezzes break on damage too. Remove immunity from mez! Same thing with fears, they break on damage. Roots break on damage. So again, snares dont really separate themselves from the other CC int hat manner. So, that point was just a bit irrelevant and thus, ignored.

Classes with no innate cures are left to use potions. And potions refresh a lot slower than snares.

But sure, I'd love for snares to work like stuns or roots. Give snares an immunity timer and see people cure said snare and be snare immune for 2 minutes. Im ok with that too, but I'd prefer a change that doesnt quite screw the rangers and bards over quite that much.

Simple: Leave rangers and bards out of any snare changes?

Giving snares an immunity timer would not be fromt he caster PoV, it would be from the victim PoV as far as I can tell from the current immunities.

Well obviously, and this isnt the issue I am talking about, but referr back to what i said before. Snares CAN BREAK! If they BREAK while immune, the immunity will be on them still and we have to cycle another round of some less worthy CC abilities, other than snare, which will rarely help us, the rangers. So pay attention please, or get out of the post.

Other CC breaks on damage too. Snares arent unique in this way.

All CC abilities prevents people from attacking. It's okay to have at least one to help you win, or a little more on group on group fights, but having a ton of CC ability to completely disable and kill one person is rediculous. One night an illusionist almost killed 3 of my groupmates waiting on the rest of the group to show up, he killed 2 of us and died to our tank who had at least 10% hp left. 20+ seconds on mezzes is rediculous, especially if you can have an illusionist keep you locked down and giving you no chance to fight back, and able to cast multible mezzes on other people at the same it. It's also unfair for someone to mez you for that long to have their group come and gank you. All CC abilities shouldnt last for any more than 10 seconds in pvp, and should grant immunities to every other CC abilit. There, w all have a chance to fight back if we want to.

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Old 11-29-2008, 05:28 AM   #45
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Torrin wrote:

1) Remove Snares AND allow All Ranged CAs to be cast while moving.

2) Allow the Ranger Epic / Mythical to fire from melee range but remove the Damage Bonus from doing so.

3) Allow slower classes use of Snares, mainly Fighters. Snare abilities should be given out sparingly and not as powerful as they are currently.

Reason for change 2 is that it's pretty stupid a "Ranged Class" can hit Hook Arrow > PBS > Autoattack and kill most anyone.. all that damage is done from point blank and not at ranged at all, save for the initial Hook Arrow.

  1. Doesnt seem too bad if snares are toned down imho. Must take care not to [[Removed for Content]] rangers over. SMILEY
  2. No opinion really.
  3. Would be sortof nice.
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Old 11-29-2008, 07:58 AM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Snares in this game are overwhelmingly OP. I'll admit, from all tose years playing EQ1 pvp where snares and roots were near impossible to land (insane resistability) and charms and fears weren't allowed to be cast on player targets (they were at first, but there wre too many complaints about lvl 4 enchanters charming lvl 1 and 2 noobs and sending them to attack guards and complaints about necro's fearing entire groups of people at orc camps only to suffer them xp loss), is probably a big reason it took me a while to get used to being easily feared, snared, and rooted.

Also, admittingly, the big problem with snares is ranger snares. Now that swashies don't have reach, it's not that big of a deal that they snare me, because they still have to be in melee range to me to do all their dmg. But the biggest ranged attk dpser in the game has the biggest, most, and longest lasting snares ... AND ON TOP OF THAT THE RANGER CAN STACK EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ON YOU!

Here is what I suggest. Let's say ranger_01 is looking for a pvp target. He see's me, bruiser_01 running by and he needs an easy fighter update. So the first thing he does is he uses his sniping bow shot for the snare. Ok, that's got me, it's not that strong but slows me enough for him to get close enough to put his melee range snare on me that may be mastered and has a greater snare %. Great, all fine and dandy BUT it should overwrite the previous snare, not stack with it. Now he's bow attacking me while I'm snared and I can't get to him, fettering poision procs. Instead of even more stacking off snares (and I'm running at like -70 runspeed now), the fettering poison should do either 1 of 3 things.

With Ranger AA's I can reach the snare cap with all 3 of my snares and my fettering is at 60% ish adding another snare will not reduce speed past -75%

1. Either the snare overwrites a weaker snare

As far as I know that is the way it is for the speed reduction, adding another snare will give less chance of the speed reduction being taken off.

2. The snare won't land because a better snare is already on the pvp target

See above

3. Or the target has an immunity to snare timer up so can't be snared again for half a minute.

Would really kill off the majority of the ranger class if this was to happen and I am not talking about the mythical ones but the ones that need to kite for a kill. Ranger in melee = dead ranger, the epic can change this but this is how it is for the everyday ranger.

 So yeah, -70 was a bit of an exaggeration, but -40 isn't an exaggeration.

You are reading it wrong each of my snares are at 75% (Roped Shot , Rear Shot and the melee snare) not all of them combined. This is with M1s and 15% added snare from AA.

1.   That is NOT the way it is with speed reduction.  I can see myself getting slower as each snare is stacked up.  And even if it DID do that with speed reduction, one snare shouldn't even land on me if I already have a snare on me.   A stronger snare should overwrite a weaker snare; which means, it should take the place of, not add to a detriment spot.

I guess I agree there would just mean timing snare more so when one goes down just reapply right away.

2.  See above as well

3.  Rangers will still be the best ranged class in the game.  They'll still have the OP autoattack on their bow attacks.  They'll still be able to stun and root.   But just because their snares cause them to be OP doesn't mean the other classes should suffer for a poorly thought out design of a class/ability.

Fix auto attack FIRST before doing anything else in PvP if you messed around with snares now then months later fixed auto attack where would that put the ranger class ? Since they took pritty much all our kiting ability away all we are left with is the snares, 2 melee stuns and a 2 second melee root, take away the snare and then what happens ? Maybe they can be toned down abit but look how it is when auto attacks are fixed not now simply because the devs will overnerf classes.

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Old 11-30-2008, 08:43 PM   #47
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LOL

as a troub i only have 1 snare with a 5% chance to break for 13s (pvp).  The amount of times i've seen it break on the first hit is amazing.  I bet the times that i have seen it stay on for longer than 6s i could count on my right hand.

The problem seem to be with the rangers and its because the fettering poison procs almost 100% of the time with the first attacks on a 9sec delay bow.  Fix? maybe make these posions proc less.

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Old 12-01-2008, 07:33 AM   #48
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Death0Matic wrote:

LOL

as a troub i only have 1 snare with a 5% chance to break for 13s (pvp).  The amount of times i've seen it break on the first hit is amazing.  I bet the times that i have seen it stay on for longer than 6s i could count on my right hand.

The problem seem to be with the rangers and its because the fettering poison procs almost 100% of the time with the first attacks on a 9sec delay bow.  Fix? maybe make these posions proc less.

/agree

troub's snare is crap

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Old 12-01-2008, 10:36 AM   #49
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Tharcyl wrote:

Death0Matic wrote:

LOL

as a troub i only have 1 snare with a 5% chance to break for 13s (pvp).  The amount of times i've seen it break on the first hit is amazing.  I bet the times that i have seen it stay on for longer than 6s i could count on my right hand.

The problem seem to be with the rangers and its because the fettering poison procs almost 100% of the time with the first attacks on a 9sec delay bow.  Fix? maybe make these posions proc less.

/agree

troub's snare is crap

Then again, troubs a long range with their AA line ;o

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Old 12-01-2008, 05:25 PM   #50
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What good is having an extra 5m range on your snare when the thing snaps the first time you hit them anyways?

WTB a snare that actually works. PST

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Old 12-02-2008, 05:38 AM   #51
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Paikis wrote:

What good is having an extra 5m range on your snare when the thing snaps the first time you hit them anyways?

WTB a snare that actually works. PST

Well, if you have a good range, you don't have to be so close if a scout tries to melee you? And if it's a ranger, you can stay out of his range because I recall troubs have longer range

OOOOOR you could use your mess, charm and stifle and your stun that all scouts have. And don't bards have faster run speed than everyone else in PVP?

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Old 12-02-2008, 04:36 PM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:

Paikis wrote:

What good is having an extra 5m range on your snare when the thing snaps the first time you hit them anyways?

WTB a snare that actually works. PST

Well, if you have a good range, you don't have to be so close if a scout tries to melee you? And if it's a ranger, you can stay out of his range because I recall troubs have longer range

OOOOOR you could use your mess, charm and stifle and your stun that all scouts have. And don't bards have faster run speed than everyone else in PVP?

+5m on spells really isnt that huge of an advantage. No, we don't have longer range than rangers. As for Mez, charm, stiffle... Last scout I fought was a brigand. When he was running at me, I saw bristlebane-Mischief Maker go up, and I saw overclocked cross-trainers. So he was running at 100% and he was immune to all my control effects. Just try keeping range on that! Even after my snare he would have been at 31% and he was completely immune to my control effects... except for charm and I don't really want to charm him if I'm trying to kill him.

Bard in-combat runspeed: 12% (+10% if you have Marrow's Song equiped, which means no shield, and also its available to everyone else as well)

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Old 12-04-2008, 07:33 AM   #53
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Paikis wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Paikis wrote:

What good is having an extra 5m range on your snare when the thing snaps the first time you hit them anyways?

WTB a snare that actually works. PST

Well, if you have a good range, you don't have to be so close if a scout tries to melee you? And if it's a ranger, you can stay out of his range because I recall troubs have longer range

OOOOOR you could use your mess, charm and stifle and your stun that all scouts have. And don't bards have faster run speed than everyone else in PVP?

+5m on spells really isnt that huge of an advantage. No, we don't have longer range than rangers. As for Mez, charm, stiffle... Last scout I fought was a brigand. When he was running at me, I saw bristlebane-Mischief Maker go up, and I saw overclocked cross-trainers. So he was running at 100% and he was immune to all my control effects. Just try keeping range on that! Even after my snare he would have been at 31% and he was completely immune to my control effects... except for charm and I don't really want to charm him if I'm trying to kill him.

Bard in-combat runspeed: 12% (+10% if you have Marrow's Song equiped, which means no shield, and also its available to everyone else as well)

So he used a god ability, and? It's one hour recast and not everyone have Bristlebane as their God nor do they always use it against a bard (As coercers/illusionists are much more lethal when it comes to control effects). And when ANYONE attacks, they have reduced speed. Most have 0% or 5% troubh AA ability while bards have 12% with their AA.

This means you're FASTER in PVP than most classes. If a brigand roots you, use a potion to cure it or mess the brigand.  Furthermore, both of you can use sprint in case the brig uses it and troubs also get a buff that increases in-combat power which means you can sprint til he's out of power.

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Old 12-04-2008, 07:54 AM   #54
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well in that case the problem lies more on the godspell side than the troub's snare imo SMILEY
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:20 AM   #55
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[email protected] wrote:

well in that case the problem lies more on the godspell side than the troub's snare imo

No, the problem is the snare. Godspells are another problem, but the snare snaps waaay too easily.

@Efrath: How do you keep range on someone who will kill you in 3 seconds if they get into melee range, who runs at 100% UNTIL he gets into melee range (and THEN hits you) and who is immune to all control effects? please, clue me in here.

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Old 12-04-2008, 09:34 AM   #56
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Paikis wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

well in that case the problem lies more on the godspell side than the troub's snare imo

No, the problem is the snare. Godspells are another problem, but the snare snaps waaay too easily.

@Efrath: How do you keep range on someone who will kill you in 3 seconds if they get into melee range, who runs at 100% UNTIL he gets into melee range (and THEN hits you) and who is immune to all control effects? please, clue me in here.

First of all, not EVERYONE is immune to all control effects, that is once again a Godspell problem. If you see them pop it, run away til the effect wears away, you can get up to 100% to you know, or least close to it by using AA and chokidai totems.

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Old 12-04-2008, 10:08 AM   #57
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I'm sorry Paikis but I fail to see how your example illustrates that your snare is weak. If you ask for a snare that would get that brig from 200% run speed to less than your in combat run speed, good luck getting it ... If you want to prove us that your snare needs a boost, go do some testing: snare a friend, hit him, and count how many hits it takes to break to break the snare. Do it 100 times and tell us the average. If you find out it breaks in less than ... let's say ... 3 hits on average, I think everyone will support you. The problem in your example is your regular CC options are screwed by a miracle. Don't ask for a spell improvement because some random scrub popped a miracle. In your particular case you had the option to evac, or to charm, run away, and come back after CC immu wear off. you don't NEED a better snare for that. Things could be worse tbh. You could have cloth mitigation, with inferior run speed to your bard, no track to help you see the brig coming and no evac, if you see what I mean SMILEY

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Old 12-04-2008, 01:01 PM   #58
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PLS STOP NERFING EQ GOD DAMIT!
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