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Old 02-16-2006, 05:19 AM   #301
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Avoidance tank are not better than mitigation tanks.  I play a lvl 60 guard and yes it is easy to max out my mit to 80% form a lvl "60" but there are higher lvl mobs than lvl 60.   My avoidance is also up in the high 50's while tanking.  Avoidance tanks have alot more than that but when u see an avoidance tank get hit its almost for 100% health (in raids).  Also in epic encounts of more than one mob an avoidance tank gets hit alot more.  The only thing i see wrong with a guard is the recast on protect.. we can only do soo much aoe and other classes seem to have alot of aoe with dot's.  So if protect would have a bit less recast time tanking may be a little easyer.

 

60 guard 

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Old 02-16-2006, 08:35 AM   #302
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How much does mitigation effect mob CAs? Doesn't seem like much if at all.... I do believe avoidance on the other hand affects it... hmm 100%?
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Old 02-16-2006, 10:53 PM   #303
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Death0Matic wrote:

Avoidance tank are not better than mitigation tanks...  tanking...  Avoidance tanks...  avoidance tank... (in raids)...  epic encounts of ... avoidance tank...  tanking .

 

60 guard 


What do you do when not tanking?
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:08 PM   #304
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mastersardis wrote:
What do you do when not tanking?
Blame guardians, they're the ones who've said since release all they want to do/be is a meatshield tank.  /shrug.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:16 PM   #305
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And you are the one that wanted the same without giving up your other advantages.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:31 PM   #306
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Snikey wrote:
And you are the one that wanted the same without giving up your other advantages.

Not true.  That just proves you haven't read many of my posts dealing with the issue.

What I asked for was the ability to be interchangeable and successfully tank most of the mobs in the game.  I asked for the tanking gap to be roughly equal to the dps/utility gap.

I've also lobbied for increases to guardian dps/utility as long as it doesn't skew the aggro generation abilities of the fighters and/or tip the scale too far in regards to tanking.

/shrug

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Old 02-17-2006, 01:09 AM   #307
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Gaige wrote:

Snikey wrote:
And you are the one that wanted the same without giving up your other advantages.

Not true.  That just proves you haven't read many of my posts dealing with the issue.

What I asked for was the ability to be interchangeable and successfully tank most of the mobs in the game.  I asked for the tanking gap to be roughly equal to the dps/utility gap.

I've also lobbied for increases to guardian dps/utility as long as it doesn't skew the aggro generation abilities of the fighters and/or tip the scale too far in regards to tanking.

/shrug


I gladly gave up tanking 2% of end game content, and agro mgmt that a guard has to be able to: FD/Fear/Mezz/Safefall/DPS (not ranger dps but solid DPS)/Mend/Soloability. But this is a personal choice that I made after exploiring the monk classes. Orange cons aside: I am able to tank as well as my guard, kill near as fast as my warlock and have many get out of jail free cards like FD/Mez/Fear/Mend. 

With all the goodies monks have, I cant imagin SOE making it possible for pajama wearers to replace a Plate tank on a level 65^^^ heroic named. On the flip side I dont see SOE giving Guardians the DPS of a monk or a HOT to counter what monk get mend for (constant damage) vs (spikes of high damage). But I still believe that Guardians need some more solo ability, more flavor along the protection lines.

I hated taking 15 misn to killa single mob /rolls eyes

I hated be ing one shotted by a ^^^

Bruiser is a perfect middle ground. So far I'm really loving this class. To the Guardians, jst set your expectations accrdingly so you are not dissapointed. The MT role is an Important one and takes a special type of person. If that is your path, choose it stick with it and enjoy the game. You all have my support.

 

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Old 02-17-2006, 01:34 AM   #308
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Darton wrote:

I gladly gave up tanking 2% of end game content, and agro mgmt that a guard has to be able to: FD/Fear/Mezz/Safefall/DPS (not ranger dps but solid DPS)/Mend/Soloability. But this is a personal choice that I made after exploiring the monk classes. Orange cons aside: I am able to tank as well as my guard, kill near as fast as my warlock and have many get out of jail free cards like FD/Mez/Fear/Mend. 


Why do Guardians have to give that up?  What do we get in return for not being able to do those things?

If you have to think more than a couple of seconds about it, or cant give an answer at all, then you must agree the Guardians need a boost.

We are not asking SOE to break the "balance" that Gaige has made his life's goal.  We dont want to disturb his precious dream world where all fighters tank equally.  We want to be a viable class in and out of the MT roll, and in and out of the group role.

Monks have it, Guardians don't.

Balance that.

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Old 02-17-2006, 01:36 AM   #309
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Darton wrote:

I gladly gave up tanking 2% of end game content, and agro mgmt that a guard has to be able to: FD/Fear/Mezz/Safefall/DPS (not ranger dps but solid DPS)/Mend/Soloability. But this is a personal choice that I made after exploiring the monk classes. Orange cons aside: I am able to tank as well as my guard, kill near as fast as my warlock and have many get out of jail free cards like FD/Mez/Fear/Mend. 

With all the goodies monks have, I cant imagin SOE making it possible for pajama wearers to replace a Plate tank on a level 65^^^ heroic named.


Please be more clear when you include Fear and Mez when talking about "monk classes" as monks do not get either, bruisers do.  That'd be like me saying guardians can tank too well because they have rampage and open wounds.
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:01 AM   #310
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Gaige wrote:

 

Please be more clear when you include Fear and Mez when talking about "monk classes" as monks do not get either, bruisers do.  That'd be like me saying guardians can tank too well because they have rampage and open wounds.
Your nitpicking over a statement that was meant to show comparison....either way.....it still adds up to more then guards have to offer....
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:35 AM   #311
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Crim001 wrote:

Your nitpicking over a statement that was meant to show comparison....either way.....it still adds up to more then guards have to offer....


Of course I am.

Do you want me to compare monk dps to guardian dps while referencing rampage and open wounds?

Well...

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Old 02-17-2006, 02:43 AM   #312
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Trust me Gaige, Monks bring way more to the plate than guards outside the MT role...I cant count how many times group FD saved our group during a whipe...god i love that group FD...now tell me thats not an ability that is usefull to the groups. As a guard, when I dont tank, the most usefull thing I can do is make sure Stam and Str dolls are in all the time.:smileywink: then go poke at the mob for miserable dps...
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:44 AM   #313
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I'm aware of the usefulness of FD.  That is why I didn't mention FD when I said what I said.  Monks and bruisers both obviously have FD.

I was talking about Fear and Mez, which monks do not have.

Kind of like you don't have rampage or open wounds.

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Old 02-17-2006, 02:45 AM   #314
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Gaige wrote:


Crim001 wrote:

Your nitpicking over a statement that was meant to show comparison....either way.....it still adds up to more then guards have to offer....


Of course I am.

Do you want me to compare monk dps to guardian dps while referencing rampage and open wounds?

Well...


If you ever see a guy trying to throw me into a vat of boiling oil, please help him.

(Because with you helping him, there's no way in hell he's getting me in there)

Since you're asking what we want, here they are, in order of importance:

  1. We want Gaige to go away.
  2. We want increased DPS (At least in Off stance)
  3. We want a role outside of tanking
  4. We want less resisted taunts (Or mitigated in stead of resisted)
  5. We want HTL to proc on a MoBs attack, rather than a MoBs damage
  6. We want ToS to not damage equipment
  7. We want to be less gear dependant
  8. We want Protect/Intercept to be more viable, and effective in more situations

Now, there's at least one of these things you can help us out with.

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Old 02-17-2006, 02:47 AM   #315
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mastersardis wrote:
Since you're asking what we want, here they are, in order of importance:
  1. We want Gaige to go away.
  2. We want increased DPS (At least in Off stance)
  3. We want a role outside of tanking
  4. We want less resisted taunts (Or mitigated in stead of resisted)
  5. We want HTL to proc on a MoBs attack, rather than a MoBs damage
  6. We want ToS to not damage equipment
  7. We want to be less gear dependant
  8. We want Protect/Intercept to be more viable, and effective in more situations

Now, there's at least one of these things you can help us out with.


That's a pretty decent list...
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Old 02-17-2006, 02:54 AM   #316
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Not bad for a guy who "doesn't even play the game anymore," huh?
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Old 02-17-2006, 03:03 AM   #317
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mastersardis wrote:

Gaige wrote:


Crim001 wrote:

Your nitpicking over a statement that was meant to show comparison....either way.....it still adds up to more then guards have to offer....


Of course I am.

Do you want me to compare monk dps to guardian dps while referencing rampage and open wounds?

Well...


If you ever see a guy trying to throw me into a vat of boiling oil, please help him.

(Because with you helping him, there's no way in hell he's getting me in there)

Since you're asking what we want, here they are, in order of importance:

  1. We want Gaige to go away.
  2. We want increased DPS (At least in Off stance)
  3. We want a role outside of tanking
  4. We want less resisted taunts (Or mitigated in stead of resisted)
  5. We want HTL to proc on a MoBs attack, rather than a MoBs damage
  6. We want ToS to not damage equipment
  7. We want to be less gear dependant
  8. We want Protect/Intercept to be more viable, and effective in more situations

Now, there's at least one of these things you can help us out with.


Its simple guys, SOE are in a bind atm in regards to Guardians...We are very gear dependant and if they trow a bone to the non raiding guard, like more inate mitigation, Bam! the raiding guard becomes overpowered...More dps would be great for the non raiding guard again, but the raiding guard now would generate too much agro screwing up the balance again...
Only thing they can do really is give us utilities that do not compromise both end of the spectrum.
One thing is for sure tho, Guards are boring to play at the moment, because of the limited flavor of the class. we sure need some love to spike things and make it fun to play, for all, and not only the raiding tank. And please dont tell me to roll an other class if i dont think the guard is fun...all classes should be equally enjoyable to play in their own way and all level of the game...Guards are not atm..
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Old 02-17-2006, 04:51 AM   #318
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Ardors wrote:
Its simple guys, SOE are in a bind atm in regards to Guardians...We are very gear dependant and if they trow a bone to the non raiding guard, like more inate mitigation, Bam! the raiding guard becomes overpowered...More dps would be great for the non raiding guard again, but the raiding guard now would generate too much agro screwing up the balance again...
Only thing they can do really is give us utilities that do not compromise both end of the spectrum.
One thing is for sure tho, Guards are boring to play at the moment, because of the limited flavor of the class. we sure need some love to spike things and make it fun to play, for all, and not only the raiding tank. And please dont tell me to roll an other class if i dont think the guard is fun...all classes should be equally enjoyable to play in their own way and all level of the game...Guards are not atm..

I agree with your comments. Difference here is I deal with customers all day long that expect my company to fullfill their commitments. I deal with people all day long that expect me to fullfill my commitments. The only time I don't have to worry about commitment filling is when I play a SOE game and when I sleep, and the sleep part is only when I don't get a call waking me up with a commitment I have to fullfill for my company or myself.

In essance, I don't give a crap about corner SOE has backed into. Fix it.

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Old 02-17-2006, 06:42 AM   #319
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The way I see it... end raid tanking does not need to be as equal as the whiners got. With how much harder every other aspect of the game is, raid tanking should be easy. Same reguards since monks/bruisers have much easier time in farming, Soloing, duoing, small groups... they should have to work a lot harder to try to match a guardian raid tanking, be it gear and skill. Because a guardian has almost no chance to match what they do elsewhere. Period.
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Old 02-17-2006, 06:48 AM   #320
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Snikey wrote:
The way I see it... end raid tanking does not need to be as equal as the whiners got. With how much harder every other aspect of the game is, raid tanking should be easy. Same reguards since monks/bruisers have much easier time in farming, Soloing, duoing, small groups... they should have to work a lot harder to try to match a guardian raid tanking, be it gear and skill. Because a guardian has almost no chance to match what they do elsewhere. Period.

But then they'd complain that they are tanks and should be able to tank just as much/as well as us and will cry out nerf again, leaving us even worse then before.

Ok, truthfully, this doesn't really do much for the rest of the game except make guards the only option for raids.....If that were to happen, then we'd have to settle for that, leaving the 95% of guards unhappy because they won't raid.....basically all the same problems we have now.

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Old 02-18-2006, 01:28 AM   #321
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The real problem is that SOE can't fix Guards without screwing up the rest of the game.

They cant give us DPS or we out-agro everyone else.

They cant give us better Def becaue we'd take hits far better than anyone else

They cant give us utility because we'd figure out a way to use it to tank better...

SOE needs to fix the classes that are broken without breaking the classes that dont need to be fixed.  I doubt they can do it without a huge LU13 style update.  What they may do is scrap the Guardian class as we know it, and re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  Kind of like they did with Troub/Dirge.  Just scrap the old design, and throw out a totally new role for us to fill.

Problem is, it wont be focused where we were once, and that's tanking.

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Old 02-18-2006, 02:04 AM   #322
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Guys Guys.... Look at it this way.  Im sure the Trolls wont but hey who cares.
 
Tanking = taking on a mob and being the focus of their attention.  To hold agro and take the mobs damage.
 
Heres a hint trolls.  If your soloing a mob be it 3 down arrow or 3 up arrow or epic... guess what.. your tanking.
If your grouped the same thing is true.
 
Sooooooo having said that.
 
Guardians tank EPICS
You Tank Heroics.....  The devs never said " We want everyone to be able to tank the same content equally." 
 
Guards do it better on the Epic content
You do it better soloing the heroic content.
 
You can either accept this or...... BALANCE EVERYTHING. Soloing DPS and Utility.
 
I give this post about ohhh say at most 2 hours to get a nasty troll response.
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Old 02-18-2006, 04:36 AM   #323
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Warbird1 wrote:
Guys Guys.... Look at it this way.  Im sure the Trolls wont but hey who cares.
 
Tanking = taking on a mob and being the focus of their attention.  To hold agro and take the mobs damage.
 
Heres a hint trolls.  If your soloing a mob be it 3 down arrow or 3 up arrow or epic... guess what.. your tanking.
If your grouped the same thing is true.
 
Sooooooo having said that.
 
Guardians tank EPICS
You Tank Heroics.....  The devs never said " We want everyone to be able to tank the same content equally." 
 
Guards do it better on the Epic content
You do it better soloing the heroic content.
 
You can either accept this or...... BALANCE EVERYTHING. Soloing DPS and Utility.
 
I give this post about ohhh say at most 2 hours to get a nasty troll response.

Sure Warbird, I would agree with that, well, to some extent...I actually only think there are a few epic encounters in T6 where you pretty much need a Guard.  The Black Queen, Prism, POS, last couple mobs in PPR and maybe Sunchild. Anything else other fighters can tank no problems, if equipt properly.  But yes, it is the only need of the Guardian class atm, to tank a few high end epic mobs. 

So, lets do some math...I have seen on these threads people saying 10% is the amount of people max that raid, so I'll go with that number, and if anyone agree with me on the list of T6 epics that need a guard to tank, I would venture to guess its about 10% of all the T6 epics encounters.(as far as T5 goes, I think all fighters can tank anything, so I wont even go there).

So, thats 10% of 10% = 1% of all guards out there that have real jobs and 99% of all guards get the shaft!! :smileytongue:

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Old 02-18-2006, 04:39 AM   #324
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Well, you gotta factor in that there are maybe 1-2, maybe 3, guards in a raid.....
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Old 02-18-2006, 04:46 AM   #325
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So 3 Guardians( i think you meant TANKS, but ok) per raid?  Ok, so maybe 5 hardcore raiding guilds per server (yeah, right).  Thats a max of 15 Guardians that get to have fun per night?

Cool.

How many guilds use non-Guard MTs?

How many servers?

How many unhappy Guardians quitting?

Multiply that by $14.95.

There's SOEs loss per month for not fixing Guardians.

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Old 02-18-2006, 04:48 AM   #326
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mastersardis wrote:

So 3 Guardians( i think you meant TANKS, but ok) per raid?  Ok, so maybe 5 hardcore raiding guilds per server (yeah, right).  Thats a max of 15 Guardians that get to have fun per night?.


Bah who knows anymore....server merges got me all mixed up....
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Old 02-20-2006, 08:58 PM   #327
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mastersardis wrote:

The real problem is that SOE can't fix Guards without screwing up the rest of the game.I disagree

They cant give us DPS or we out-agro everyone else.They could if they linked the DPS to something that harmed aggro generation.

They cant give us better Def becaue we'd take hits far better than anyone elseUnless it was linked to something making it useless when tanking.

They cant give us utility because we'd figure out a way to use it to tank better...Unless it was linked directly to something that made tanking worse.

SOE needs to fix the classes that are broken without breaking the classes that dont need to be fixed.  I doubt they can do it without a huge LU13 style update.  What they may do is scrap the Guardian class as we know it, and re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  Kind of like they did with Troub/Dirge.  Just scrap the old design, and throw out a totally new role for us to fill.

Problem is, it wont be focused where we were once, and that's tanking.I wouldn't consider that a problem.


Some possibilities (numbers for illustrative purposes only):A CA that gives +50 STR for -100 STA for as long as it is up.A CA that gives +30 Def (or +200 mit) for -15% hate.A "rearguard" CA that is a powerful area effect taunt, gives a proc to root anyone who hits us for a few seconds, and gives a mitigiation boost for several seconds, but also counts as yelling for help.  That would give us a better chance to escaape when things go wrong solo, and in a group would give others a better chance to escape/FD or just run away.
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Old 02-20-2006, 09:20 PM   #328
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Warbird1 wrote:
 
Tanking = taking on a mob and being the focus of their attention.  To hold agro and take the mobs damage.
 
Heres a hint trolls.  If your soloing a mob be it 3 down arrow or 3 up arrow or epic... guess what.. your tanking.
If your grouped the same thing is true.
 
Sooooooo having said that.
 
Guardians tank EPICS
You Tank Heroics.....  The devs never said " We want everyone to be able to tank the same content equally." 
 
Guards do it better on the Epic content
You do it better soloing the heroic content.
 

Just because I disagree with you does not make me a troll.Soloing is not the same as tanking.Taunts are very useful when tanking, but completely useless when soloing (except to complete a HO).We do not do it better soloing heroic content.All my alts are much worse tanks, but much better soloing heroic and non heroic stuff than my guardian was at their level (a swashie, illusionist, and a fury).
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:09 PM   #329
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Remove the sentry/intercede lines that we have or fix them so that they actualy work ... hell you wouldnt even have to replace the worhtless things ... just scrap them all together :smileytongue: lol
 
Right now sentry is abosbing the dmg but it comes in un-mitigated resultng in HUGE dmg to the guardian. Intercede is broken in the same way. Tossing an intercede on a raid = insta death right now because the dmg that comes in is un-mitigated, this results in a 7-9k hit ... kinda ruins our entire "uniqueness" if every dmg absorbing CA is broken and or bugged ...
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Old 02-20-2006, 11:59 PM   #330
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pjackson wrote:
 
1. Just because I disagree with you does not make me a troll.Soloing is not the same as tanking.2. Taunts are very useful when tanking, but completely useless when soloing (except to complete a HO).3. We do not do it better soloing heroic content.All my alts are much worse tanks, but much better soloing heroic and non heroic stuff than my guardian was at their level (a swashie, illusionist, and a fury).

1. Wasnt mean at anyone who is reasonable.  The trolls out there know who they are.2.  Thats because they took away all or nearly all the usefull secondary effects of taunts like styfles from the guardian.

3.  Brawlers certanly do solo heroic content better than Guardians.

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 02-20-200611:01 AM

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