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Old 11-24-2011, 08:35 PM   #121
ObsidianNightmare

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kahonen wrote:

What seems to be pretty much missing on raids these days is the real sense of satisfaction with a new kill.  It's almost as if it's been replaced with a sense of relief (like you would feel at work at the end of a job that's a PITA) combined with wondering if you just had a lucky pull and whether you'll be able to kill it again.

OK, killing a few DoV mobs felt good, (like the Statue in TORZ to get a new BP), but the last time I felt absolute satisfaction on a new kill was killing Druusht in VP when I got my mythical.  That was the final stage of a questline that took me a few months to complete.  There is nothing like this in the game any more,  perhaps if there was, people would have more to gain from raids than just gearing up for the next name! 

The only aim of raiding now appears to be to enable you to raid even more and that, to me at least, doesn't seem to warrant the same effort.

That sense of releif was there for me when killing Avatars in TSO having to deal with STUPID amounts of lag. Now that the lag is diminished, there is no contested mob worth a poop to go after on a regular basis. The two things that held my interest were the real awesome gear you got from putting in the effort on Avatars and the fact that the mobs themselves as well as most of the strats involved were mostly unique and interesting.  I am a bit of a glutton for punishment enjoy the challenge of beating everything on the dps/heal parse that my class is able to, and I am also a woman in my mid 30s. I feel I can compete with the best and have. But this DoV content has pushed me out of raiding all together. I tried again this past few months but outside of feeling good about helping a friends guild, I didn't have any satisfaction out of the items or the content. I've no desire to go back and app to top end guilds anymore even if I could commit 100%. Thanks, SOE for killing the fun.

That guild I was helping just called it quits and will likely meet up in SWTOR. They were #3 on Guk. I can't say that they the majority of them had the same desire to min/max as I did.  I'm sure they could have climbed higher on the ladder if they had but another poster explained the atmosphere of the old guard and I have to believe it is quite true.  People do no feel the drive to be the best all the time anymore.  It makes raiding frustrating as you only find about 6 - 8 people who do this anymore in any guild into raiding and going into Hardmode content.  That is not enough to break into the tougher scripts.

The top guild on a server becomes top heavy with what I would call refugees and battered souls.  There is ALOT of turnover as a result.  People just shoot for the best because they want to get a taste of mobs they could not kill with their previous guilds.  While it's not true for many, I've seen large amounts of people that just come and go as if their absence wouldn't affect the stability of the giuld.. Some even expect to come back with full DKP/rank as they left. 

The incentive to put aside the time is just no longer there. It's an old game with a failing heartbeat.

I'm not ready for another MMO but I probably will head to SWTOR soon as well.  I guess I'll get my kicks on completing the casual side of this game.. Now I'm actually feeling the sense of releif that I don't have a need to commit to raiding this garbage content anymore.

It really is very sad that they could not fix lag issues a few expac's ago. They KNEW about the problems because we had Dev's and GM's looking at the problems when we would petition.  They've known about the problems since at least the end of RoK but they only got worse up until they put new hardware in.  I really think that some of the population loss at the top end could have been mitigated by a quicker fix to those old problems.  This is a repetitive cycle with SOE that just seems to kill the soul of the game as Devs take focus from their "complete" content in order to work on upcoming projects that do not benefit the future of the game as much as making what is already there stable and enjoyable.

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Old 11-25-2011, 01:08 AM   #122
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this games high end raiding is definatly on the verge of death, and some of the reasons are very obvious.

1. the difference from EM to HM content is vast. EM tormax takes 2 minutes to kill, and can easily be done with 2 groups of very inexperienced raiders. HM tormax is a 20 minute kill, and 1 tiny mistake can lead to a nearly instant wipe of the raid, and even when killed HM tormax gear is about .5 crit bonus and potency better then EM gear, + the yellow slot. that doesnt add up to much, yet the difficulty is VASTLY different.

2. people are getting content doing EM content, cause people dont really feel the challenge is worth the rewards, and in some cases, I even see HM raiders, stopping HM content and are fine doing EM content.

3. the lack of any real contested content in the last 2 expansions has pretty much made the game routine, you tend to kill the same things on the same days and theres little to no variation on what your gonna raid. ask any raider that did avatars, and what was the highlight of the game, and it was then.... avatars. contested content breaks up the routines of just doing the same zones everyday.

but contested content with EM and HM versions of the exact same mob - is only a annoyance. it was drastically harder to kill HM Ox, then it was to kill EM Ox, it always felt like such a waste to watch some EM guild spend 20 minutes killing EM Ox, and then act like it was somehow on the same tier as a guild that was killing it HM.

4. DoV has been a absolute disaster as far as raiding goes, Drunder HM raiding SHOULD NOT have been released this year. what it did was bring in sky high stat requirements, gear requirements that literally take weeks to prep someone for, so when you lose just 1-2 people due to real life, the usual game turn over, burn out, whatever, gearing up new people literally sets you back weeks.

older players that are already set to do drunder, constantly having to go back and regear people for drunder, brings about apathy - they get bored and feel unchallenged, and are forced to watch content slip farther and farther away from them.

which brings a nasty cycle - older players get sick of killing the same DoV launch zones, and eventually just quit, recruits never get the gear they need, or take alot to gear up.

Drunder should have NEVER been released, as its been a major force in killing off high end raid guilds, cause the sky high requirements put some guilds in this endless cycle of trying to gear up for it.... while trying to maintain some feeling of progression among the entire raids roster.

5. infuriating game mechanics - the class debuffs, and co-op strike should not be standard mechanics within any game. when a single scouts death means a mob gets a buff for 3 seconds cause someone had to run to try and get the debuff on the mob, and in 2 seconds the mob wipes out the MT group and is running everywhere killing the entire raid, its a sickening feeling, you wonder, why would anyone design content like that? why would anyone assume that would have been a good idea? a fun thing to add into a game?

and coop strike? + memwipes, killing your MT or healers or whatever... are you kidding me? when luck is the biggest factor in if somethings killable, thats just a frustrating and maddening thing to deal with.

fixes.

EM content should NOT exist - if you kill something, you kill it. just like in TSO, you kill munzok, it was a big deal, there was no EM version of munzok. to say you killed something really meant something - and the gear showed it.

with no EM content, there would be a meaning to saying "I killed kraytoc", and there would be no comparing EM to HM gear, you just get the gear, or you dont. it would give people a reason to actually want to kill something like HM statue, and not just sit in some EM raid guild cause they were content picking up gear thats 99% as good, from a mob thats 10 times easier to kill. 

a contested mob should 100% be rewarding - and not a joke like DoV contesteds are. 

things like coop strike and class debuffs need to just be gone - a single debuff should NOT be the reason you fail a pull, luck should never be the decieding factor on if something can be killled.

content like drunder should never evvvvvvvver be introduced into the game as early as it was. when the requirements from launch raid content are almost doubled, it creates this huge gap in gear, that gap in gear takes ALOT of time to fill, and that doesnt take into account that people do get bored of this game, get burnt out, sometimes they just dont fit in to a guild and need to go somewhere else. so everytime you have to gear up someone new, its literally weeks of backtracking to get them geared up.... and that gets tiresome and old fast.

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Old 11-25-2011, 04:33 AM   #123
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Crismorn wrote:

Without the top end the game will crumble downward, the following explains how this came to happen and below it their are how it will affect other raiders/heroic players and below that are some solutions.

I am sorry, but i cant resist...

The one and absolutely only reason why EQ2 dies is that SOE made raid endgame. This is a fact nobody can deny who played the game 2004 to 2007. The games population would be tripple if only those came back who left due to Freethinkers, Mistmore and Tunares, even Kla'anon raid and early RoK.

EQ2 as an mmo once was on the same level as a Bethesda game. Which is really something and unmatched by any other mmo till today. The WoW cash raid paradigm crawled in since KoS and then imploded with EoF and RoK. And raid will never ever save this gem. Only a huge monetary investement and roll back to Bethesda quality.

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Old 11-25-2011, 04:44 AM   #124
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Kunaak wrote:

this games high end raiding is definatly on the verge of death, and some of the reasons are very obvious.

1. the difference from EM to HM content is vast. EM tormax takes 2 minutes to kill, and can easily be done with 2 groups of very inexperienced raiders. HM tormax is a 20 minute kill, and 1 tiny mistake can lead to a nearly instant wipe of the raid, and even when killed HM tormax gear is about .5 crit bonus and potency better then EM gear, + the yellow slot. that doesnt add up to much, yet the difficulty is VASTLY different.

2. people are getting content doing EM content, cause people dont really feel the challenge is worth the rewards, and in some cases, I even see HM raiders, stopping HM content and are fine doing EM content.

3. the lack of any real contested content in the last 2 expansions has pretty much made the game routine, you tend to kill the same things on the same days and theres little to no variation on what your gonna raid. ask any raider that did avatars, and what was the highlight of the game, and it was then.... avatars. contested content breaks up the routines of just doing the same zones everyday.

but contested content with EM and HM versions of the exact same mob - is only a annoyance. it was drastically harder to kill HM Ox, then it was to kill EM Ox, it always felt like such a waste to watch some EM guild spend 20 minutes killing EM Ox, and then act like it was somehow on the same tier as a guild that was killing it HM.

4. DoV has been a absolute disaster as far as raiding goes, Drunder HM raiding SHOULD NOT have been released this year. what it did was bring in sky high stat requirements, gear requirements that literally take weeks to prep someone for, so when you lose just 1-2 people due to real life, the usual game turn over, burn out, whatever, gearing up new people literally sets you back weeks.

older players that are already set to do drunder, constantly having to go back and regear people for drunder, brings about apathy - they get bored and feel unchallenged, and are forced to watch content slip farther and farther away from them.

which brings a nasty cycle - older players get sick of killing the same DoV launch zones, and eventually just quit, recruits never get the gear they need, or take alot to gear up.

Drunder should have NEVER been released, as its been a major force in killing off high end raid guilds, cause the sky high requirements put some guilds in this endless cycle of trying to gear up for it.... while trying to maintain some feeling of progression among the entire raids roster.

5. infuriating game mechanics - the class debuffs, and co-op strike should not be standard mechanics within any game. when a single scouts death means a mob gets a buff for 3 seconds cause someone had to run to try and get the debuff on the mob, and in 2 seconds the mob wipes out the MT group and is running everywhere killing the entire raid, its a sickening feeling, you wonder, why would anyone design content like that? why would anyone assume that would have been a good idea? a fun thing to add into a game?

and coop strike? + memwipes, killing your MT or healers or whatever... are you kidding me? when luck is the biggest factor in if somethings killable, thats just a frustrating and maddening thing to deal with.

fixes.

EM content should NOT exist - if you kill something, you kill it. just like in TSO, you kill munzok, it was a big deal, there was no EM version of munzok. to say you killed something really meant something - and the gear showed it.

with no EM content, there would be a meaning to saying "I killed kraytoc", and there would be no comparing EM to HM gear, you just get the gear, or you dont. it would give people a reason to actually want to kill something like HM statue, and not just sit in some EM raid guild cause they were content picking up gear thats 99% as good, from a mob thats 10 times easier to kill. 

a contested mob should 100% be rewarding - and not a joke like DoV contesteds are. 

things like coop strike and class debuffs need to just be gone - a single debuff should NOT be the reason you fail a pull, luck should never be the decieding factor on if something can be killled.

content like drunder should never evvvvvvvver be introduced into the game as early as it was. when the requirements from launch raid content are almost doubled, it creates this huge gap in gear, that gap in gear takes ALOT of time to fill, and that doesnt take into account that people do get bored of this game, get burnt out, sometimes they just dont fit in to a guild and need to go somewhere else. so everytime you have to gear up someone new, its literally weeks of backtracking to get them geared up.... and that gets tiresome and old fast.

Lots of errors of fact here that substantially weaken your argument.

Firstly how many even half way serious raiders are there?

500, 1,000, 5,000?  Out of how many people playing Everquest?

Secondly "you killed something (it) really meant something", what did it mean?  Remember, to gear out a team of 24 across 4 unevenly distributed archetypes means you are going to have to kill this same mob15-25 more times.  If it is the first mob in the raid-zone and you dont kill the second, third etc on the first run through (who does that anyway?) you are probably set to kill it more than a 100 times again.

Thirdly "EM tormax takes 2 minutes to kill, and can easily be done with 2 groups of very inexperienced raiders" really?  I do not believe you, 2 groups of experienced raiders with HM gear maybe, but no one killied Tormax on release night in SF gear, and I doubt that any raid killed him under 2 minutes with 4 groups for many weeks after that.

I agree the whole EM/HM thing deserves a serious rethink.  But what it really is, is a way of containing costs in a game segment with declining revenues.  Reusing the same artwork as a contested zone, two heroic zones and two raid zones delivers a huge bang for a much smaller buck.  Similarly reusing the same mobs with two very similar sets of scripting saves on development and artwork. Also using an automated tool for generating itemisation contains costs.

Now I would love a game update/expansion with 24+ unique dungeons in graded difficulty from solo to very challenging 24 person raids, overland zones 10,000+ meters N-S and E-W, with logic puzzles and complex victory conditions, heck even calling for picking locks and making traps and deadfalls safe.  It aint happening, the revenue stream is not there to cover the people and hardware costs.

If you want a reasonable response from SOE managment you have to scale your wants to what is achievable within the revenue stream.  Not expect a massive cross subsidy from solo/heroic players to give pleasure to the hardcore raiding minority.

Oh and by the way dont keep griping about free to play.  Its here, its staying and it is based around the needs of casual players not high end raiders.  If you want something for raiding sell it harder in terms that a non-game playing accountant can understand, that approach just may get you something.

Oh and by the way, as someone who was playing EQ2 50-60 hours a week I guess I am a serious player, and until recently a raider too.  I would still be raiding now if not for the dirge nerf and the lack of a sympathetic and reasonable response from the Raid Leader and on the forums.  Now I am hanging in there waiting on seeing AoD and starting to look at other MMO's with a view to changing game.

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Old 11-25-2011, 05:20 AM   #125
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I have end game raided from launch til now and i agree with davionx( as i am writing this sentence i still amazed) itemization IS a huge factor. Now I am in mainly DoV HM couple Em drunder items yet when i go from raiding HM DoV to raiding HM drunder i have to switch out gear to extra pieces due to the HM dov set dosen't cover the basic crit mit requirement that alone is a issue in itself even before you get to the minor upgrades you get from going from each set of gear.

I did not see a post about this end game raiders do impact the followng imho like it or not we impact the ingame ecomony by making or buying ammo(i personally keep woodworkers very busy) or potions if the end game raiding falls to the waysides the game servers ecomony's will be effected. Secondly SOE's garenteed cash flow income from EQ2 once it does goto F2P is going to be from subcriber players(gold members i think it gonna be called) and a majority of those players are you guessed it END GAME raiders.

I hope this post is getting read and some of the little bit too late hm changes comming next week. Will help out at least the top 30 guilds and not just the to 15 or so.

   

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Old 11-25-2011, 05:36 AM   #126
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I'm gonna go ahead and be upfront, blunt and honest and state my opinion of avatars and other contested raid mobs.

SCREW. THAT. Right in it's ear.

I personally got sick of having to take turns staying up all damned night popping onto an alt now and again to see if the mob spawned. I hated the fact that I had to be "on call" much like a physcian was, if I had any hope in Hate of EVER SEEING much less KILLING a contested mob.

I hated the outright vile, nasty attitudes it brought out in people. That wasn't a friendly rivalry. If the loot was good enough, they'd sit there, wait for you to wipe, laugh in your face, and then pull it. With two raids there just to be sure that if the first wipes, the second got the pull.

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

/rant off

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Old 11-25-2011, 05:39 AM   #127
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[email protected] wrote:

I have end game raided from launch til now and i agree with davionx( as i am writing this sentence i still amazed) itemization IS a huge factor. Now I am in mainly DoV HM couple Em drunder items yet when i go from raiding HM DoV to raiding HM drunder i have to switch out gear to extra pieces due to the HM dov set dosen't cover the basic crit mit requirement that alone is a issue in itself even before you get to the minor upgrades you get from going from each set of gear.

I did not see a post about this end game raiders do impact the followng imho like it or not we impact the ingame ecomony by making or buying ammo(i personally keep woodworkers very busy) or potions if the end game raiding falls to the waysides the game servers ecomony's will be effected. Secondly SOE's garenteed cash flow income from EQ2 once it does goto F2P is going to be from subcriber players(gold members i think it gonna be called) and a majority of those players are you guessed it END GAME raiders.

I hope this post is getting read and some of the little bit too late hm changes comming next week. Will help out at least the top 30 guilds and not just the to 15 or so.

roflmao, if the "guaranteed cash flow income" is coming from "END GAME raiders" the game will be shut down for good by christmass.  There are many times more subscribers who dont raid than who do.

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Old 11-25-2011, 05:42 AM   #128
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millie wrote:

Oh and by the way, as someone who was playing EQ2 50-60 hours a week I guess I am a serious player, and until recently a raider too.  I would still be raiding now if not for the dirge nerf and the lack of a sympathetic and reasonable response from the Raid Leader and on the forums.  Now I am hanging in there waiting on seeing AoD and starting to look at other MMO's with a view to changing game.

I'm still raiding my dirge.

And I'm still peeved about the 20k+ dps drop.

And I'm still peeved about the troub buff. The stuff outside the blue AE was enough. Give them a blue AE, now I'm getting trash talked on every trash pull because the troub can outparse me on pulls of two or three trash encounters. It's annoying as hell.

And by 20k+, I was pulling around 100k-110k before. My gear isn't great. My guild's progression isn't top of the server. I don't care about that. I do care about the fact that I'm lucky to pull 80k on most fights. Many fights it's even lower than that.

We had our best freaking dirge QUIT because of that nerf... And we've been scrambling to replace him. We end up boxing one dirge, and we have one app atm... but her gear's bad and we gotta go throught he regearing phase again.... Probably to have them quit too. I'm our only steady dirge atm. And quite frankly, I'd like to raid on an alt occasionally like our healers and even the chanters get to. Our TANKS get to raid on alts. But me? Hell no. I have an illy I'd like to take. Good luck there. Need the dirge.

/sigh

They were hard enough to find, and then SoE pulls this?

/rant off

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Old 11-25-2011, 08:25 AM   #129
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hmm maybe more of a sign of the declining population of eq2.

also lets face it many i know are either casual raiders or ex raiders who were once hardcore.

people log in to eq2 nowadays for a more relaxing atmosphere.

I think unlike eq1 ,eq2 people want a more relaxed gaming experience.

When i log into my other guild that does not raid at all ,there are far more people online primetime.what does that tell you about eq2 direction?

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Old 11-25-2011, 10:46 AM   #130
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[email protected] wrote:

*snip*

Regardless, one positive thing about this thread is that it's enabled me to come out of hiding, per se...

I never felt comfortable mentioning how out of step I was feeling with the adventuring side of the game the last couple of years, how behind I felt I had fallen.  Like I said, I used to be really GOOD with Strep and suddenly I wasn't.  It was hard not to feel like that wasn't my fault, somehow.  And I was doing zones, and trying for shards---but LORD was it boring.  And not fun.  So not fun.  So I went back and started doing things I could do that *were* fun.  Old quests.  Exploring.  And yes, decorating.  But I was also retreating, and hiding.  Because I didn't feel good enough to compete anymore.  And certainly, on these boards, reading a lot of posts by the raiding crowd--well, it didn't help.

But reading *this* thread makes me realise that I'm not necessarily just an old fart who's gone out to pasture (well, maybe I am, but it's not the entire reason), and that I'm not necessarily the only one with my experience here in EQ2.  And that's made me feel a lot better.  Strep feels better, too.  

You are certainly not the only one. Definately feel so behind the curve sometimes it makes it hard to even encourage others. So, like yourself, I hide, I solo, I craft... whatever to occupy myself with something that's enjoyable and not a lesson in frustration.

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Old 11-25-2011, 11:39 AM   #131
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The existance of this thread, ultimately comes down to SOE's failure to successfuly implement risk vs reward. It is human nature - Why invest the effort, if the reward does not justify it? People will take the easy route, and be content with such. If someone offered me a 10% pay rise if I tripled my workload, I would laugh in their face, and tell them where to go.Stats in EQ2 have become a severe problem, that the staff at SOE have failed to handle. Critical Mitigation and Crit Chance have become desperation stats, which SOE abuses in a crude attempt of masking the problem, while only digging themselves deeper and deeper, ruining game playability while they are at it.The downward decline of staffing levels over the years, gives less hope to this being rectified. Incomplete features are piling up, problems are not being fixed, expansion content is becoming amazingly slim and generic. The cash shop engine is full steam ahead. Where will this train go?

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Old 11-25-2011, 12:08 PM   #132
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All the way to Maple Story.  Choo choo!

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Old 11-25-2011, 12:14 PM   #133
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[email protected] wrote:

Where will this train go?

This is my guess.

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Old 11-25-2011, 12:47 PM   #134
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[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

Just make it where the contested mobs give the best gear. It'll seperate the hardcore from the ones pretending to be hardcore. Early day EQ1 raids rocked because it was all contested. 

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Old 11-25-2011, 01:07 PM   #135
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*reads all nine pages*

*shakes head*

*walks off laughing*

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Old 11-25-2011, 01:26 PM   #136
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[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

The move to destroy Contested content would not be such a bad thing if it didn't evolve into the mess we have now. That is the point of this thread.

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Old 11-25-2011, 02:41 PM   #137
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[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

/rant off

The problem is you are completely wrong.

While there were problems with contested mobs, there has *never*, *ever* been a period in EQ2 where killing a contested mob was required for finishing instanced raid content.  *NEVER*.

Sure, there have been problems with contested content.  But those problems have *never* included contested raid content being *required* for instanced raid content.

YES.  There was for a very bried period of time, in the KoS era, a situation where contested content gated instanced content.  The outpouring of opposition to this situation led to it *very* quickly being changed.

There most certainly have been times where contested mobs dropped the very best gear in the game . . . and that was a GOOD THING.  The only problem I ever had with that was the inherent unfairness in that once "a" guild on a server had the mob strat figured out, the other guilds on the server were at a *distinct* disadvantage.  Not in that they couldn't watch for the spawn and go get it, but that they typically only got one pull before "that" guild executed on a kill.

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Old 11-25-2011, 08:02 PM   #138
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I have been raiding since t5, for at least 4 days a week and at one point 7 days/week on 24/7 avatar call list during EoF. Sad to say, this is pretty much the end of the road for me. There are basically 4 major reasons:

1- Raid encounters are poorly designed. For example Coop strike with memwiping add and stagger spawn non linked encounter is ... stupid.

2- Itemization. Do I really care if I have 202 Pot vs 200.3. Yay lets farm for apps so they have more than 260 Crit Mit. That's sounds like fun.

3- No Expansion. No matter how bad an expansion before, you always have a glimmer of hope that next exp will be better. There is something exciting about fresh start. But this upcoming non-expansion is just sad. Do I want to be raiding the same crap for the next 4 months to get enough Crit Mit to get into the next raid teir? No tanks.

4- Lack of contested content. Either you are killing the contested stuff, or you trying to steal the contested stuff from top guild. That was end game. That was MMO.

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Old 11-26-2011, 12:55 AM   #139
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One of the biggest problems I think with raiding right now is turnover.  Players quit, they are getting burned out.  We jump through hoops and find new players.  But because of the huge gear requirements we spend weeks gearing apps.  Either they don't make the vote, or someone new quits and we get new recruits.

We spend more time farming zones that we should have retired 6 months ago to get recruits up to drunder level than I can stomach.

I wish guilds could bank raid gear that no one needed so that when recruits came along we could hand them already completed sets instead of having to farm old zones for 2 more weeks to get them some gear.  Alternatively give us smart loot, all armor, jewelry, and weapons.  Then we know with 1 zone clear we can get our recruit what he needs.  And while you are at it raise the drop rate on the stupid mounts.

Without a stable roster and or the ability to find and gear recruits quickly raiding is becoming a chore.  Farming zones that most of us have been done with for months is getting old.

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:02 AM   #140
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Burn out is of course the issue but what causes burn out? Burn out is caused usually by two different things. You have the burn out when things are simply legitmately too hard and the burn out from when people feel that the effort, while not too hard, simply doesn't have an adequete pay out. I think SOE actually managed to pull of both in the same expac. Initially DoV arguably had the makings of the second type of burn out and then whether due to a knee jerk reaction to that or a badly conceived initial design gave is the makings of the first type of burn out.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:37 AM   #141
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Banditman wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

/rant off

The problem is you are completely wrong.

While there were problems with contested mobs, there has *never*, *ever* been a period in EQ2 where killing a contested mob was required for finishing instanced raid content.  *NEVER*.

Sure, there have been problems with contested content.  But those problems have *never* included contested raid content being *required* for instanced raid content.

YES.  There was for a very bried period of time, in the KoS era, a situation where contested content gated instanced content.  The outpouring of opposition to this situation led to it *very* quickly being changed.

There most certainly have been times where contested mobs dropped the very best gear in the game . . . and that was a GOOD THING.  The only problem I ever had with that was the inherent unfairness in that once "a" guild on a server had the mob strat figured out, the other guilds on the server were at a *distinct* disadvantage.  Not in that they couldn't watch for the spawn and go get it, but that they typically only got one pull before "that" guild executed on a kill.

How did you know when the last time I could be bothered with contested content was?!?! Magic, I know!

That entire expansion jaded me so bad on contested stuff that I refused to join a guild doing it because I didn't want that headache ever again.

It was NOT a good thing. I should NEVER have to get a phone call at some God forsaken hour to log in and kill a raid mob before another guild got it. EVER. Yet I have.

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Old 11-26-2011, 04:41 AM   #142
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Finding wrote:

4- Lack of contested content. Either you are killing the contested stuff, or you trying to steal the contested stuff from top guild. That was end game. That was MMO.

That was MMO for college kids and high school students with no job and no life.

Sorry. I didn't enjoy getting early am phone calls being told to log in to kill X mob.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:00 AM   #143
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Elskidor wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

Just make it where the contested mobs give the best gear. It'll seperate the hardcore from the ones pretending to be hardcore. Early day EQ1 raids rocked because it was all contested. 

Only if you didn't have school or a job that interfered with your abillity to get 4 am phone calls because X was up.

Guy I dated right after I got out of college, ca. 2003... few years my junior. Was 15 or 16 when EQ came out. Can't remember.

Judge ordered the court confiscate his computer because he stayed up all night playing EverQuest and waking up early as all get out to raid, and then being too tired to go to school and skipping. It was frequently enough that the school called the cops and it went to court. His mother could do NOTHING to get him off EverCrack and go to school. "But Mom... I need to kill this."

That's the kind of life you needed to have in order to actually competitively raid. I think ya'll need to take the rose colored glasses off. Good luck getting competent people to actually raid those kinds of schedules now. I hear all these negative comments about today's raiders and you want to rely on these guys to be up in the middle of the night so you can kill a contested mob?

Excuse me while I laugh.

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Old 11-26-2011, 05:51 AM   #144
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[email protected] wrote:

Elskidor wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

If you weren't a die hard live, breathe, smoke, eat and sleep everquest crack addict, there was no way in Hell you had any shot whatsoever at avatar loot. Instancing raids was the SINGLE BEST THING they EVER did to raiding. We can raid on our time, when we want, and not have to be slaves to the mob spawn timer in order to get a few items he drops that's absolutely CRUCIAL to doing the next raid.

Just make it where the contested mobs give the best gear. It'll seperate the hardcore from the ones pretending to be hardcore. Early day EQ1 raids rocked because it was all contested. 

Only if you didn't have school or a job that interfered with your abillity to get 4 am phone calls because X was up.

Guy I dated right after I got out of college, ca. 2003... few years my junior. Was 15 or 16 when EQ came out. Can't remember.

Judge ordered the court confiscate his computer because he stayed up all night playing EverQuest and waking up early as all get out to raid, and then being too tired to go to school and skipping. It was frequently enough that the school called the cops and it went to court. His mother could do NOTHING to get him off EverCrack and go to school. "But Mom... I need to kill this."

That's the kind of life you needed to have in order to actually competitively raid. I think ya'll need to take the rose colored glasses off. Good luck getting competent people to actually raid those kinds of schedules now. I hear all these negative comments about today's raiders and you want to rely on these guys to be up in the middle of the night so you can kill a contested mob?

Excuse me while I laugh.

[email protected] wrote:

Finding wrote:

4- Lack of contested content. Either you are killing the contested stuff, or you trying to steal the contested stuff from top guild. That was end game. That was MMO.

That was MMO for college kids and high school students with no job and no life.

Sorry. I didn't enjoy getting early am phone calls being told to log in to kill X mob.

You openly admit to previously raiding on call for contested. No one FORCED you to do it. You put in the time, and effort, because you wanted to. But now, some "mysterious" undisclosed time later, your words make it clear that such a level of gameplay in EQ2 is more effort than you want to invest. The nature and wording of your posts makes your real stance very clear, envy. EQ2 does not revolve around you. The Devs should not make the pinnacle of EQ2 raiding accomplishment cease at what ever point you believe is no longer worth your time, or effort. To think otherwise, is an utterly selfish perspective, and it is clear you envy those who aspire for more despite belittling commentary.I almost felt a tear roll down my cheek when I read the tale you spun about that teenage scrub who could not handle EverQuest, but I quickly realised that the story is pointless. Random teenagers have problems arise with a myriad of things in the modern world, and can easily end up in any number of social issues, ranging from addictions (including drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, video games, and countless other things), violence/gangs, suicide and more. Trying to blame EverQuest for that teenagers problems is an absolutely pathetic, weak excuse. EverQuest is nothing more than a convenient, defenseless target for people like you to point your finger at. Guess what, the world was a mess before computers were invented. Nothing changed.Avatars in EQ2 were a great element of gameplay. I do not know or care how contesteds were handled in EQ1, but in EQ2, meaningful contested mobs were a whole lot of fun. People need to stop trying to turn MMO's into single player RPG's. There is no "Pause" button on the world of EQ2, not everything will be right where you left it when you return after 4 months away. Anyone who desires otherwise, should not be playing an MMO. Being in a persistant MMO world with countless other players, opens the doors to some great social, and competitive aspects of gameplay. Contested was a competitive aspect, and the people who invest the most, win. That is how it should be.

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Old 11-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #145
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I never killed a contested mob and never worried about it.  There is no way in the world I would have ever been able to justify the effort needed to so was perfactly happy to do nomal raids and leave the contested stuff to others. 

They did the work, they got the rewards.  I never felt I lacked anything gear wise when raiding non-contested mobs.

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Old 11-26-2011, 09:21 AM   #146
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kahonen wrote:

I never killed a contested mob and never worried about it.  There is no way in the world I would have ever been able to justify the effort needed to so was perfactly happy to do nomal raids and leave the contested stuff to others. 

They did the work, they got the rewards.  I never felt I lacked anything gear wise when raiding non-contested mobs.

Yeah but we live in a modern world now where "everyone" should have even the top most rewards.  In fact why even take the time and effort to raid?  If you wanted the absolute best mount in game all you have to do is get on station cash and spend some money, if you wanted the absolute best looking armor or weapon once again just spend some money at station cash.  We don't have stats yet on station cash, but I think we all have the common sense to know that will come one day.

The game as we knew it is gone.  The days of walking around and seeing someone in truly unique armor with a unique weapon and getting that feeling that you wanted to attain that thru hard work is gone, people just don't think that way anymore.  Watching EVERYONE run around in flaming mounts and flaming armor and flaming swords just makes me think how much would people covet a ferrari if EVERYONE had one?  SOE doesn't care one bit, they are making money selling those Ferrari's to people, why would they waste their time on actually making it "hard" for someone to get a Ferrari?

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #147
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SpineDoc wrote:

kahonen wrote:

I never killed a contested mob and never worried about it.  There is no way in the world I would have ever been able to justify the effort needed to so was perfactly happy to do nomal raids and leave the contested stuff to others. 

They did the work, they got the rewards.  I never felt I lacked anything gear wise when raiding non-contested mobs.

Yeah but we live in a modern world now where "everyone" should have even the top most rewards.  In fact why even take the time and effort to raid?  If you wanted the absolute best mount in game all you have to do is get on station cash and spend some money, if you wanted the absolute best looking armor or weapon once again just spend some money at station cash.  We don't have stats yet on station cash, but I think we all have the common sense to know that will come one day.

The game as we knew it is gone.  The days of walking around and seeing someone in truly unique armor with a unique weapon and getting that feeling that you wanted to attain that thru hard work is gone, people just don't think that way anymore.  Watching EVERYONE run around in flaming mounts and flaming armor and flaming swords just makes me think how much would people covet a ferrari if EVERYONE had one?  SOE doesn't care one bit, they are making money selling those Ferrari's to people, why would they waste their time on actually making it "hard" for someone to get a Ferrari?

Selling things for real money does make them rare, as only a very small percentage of the population will buy anything from the cash shop. In fact, charging real money is probably one of the best ways to create artificial scarcity - anything in game will be obtained by more and more people as it becomes easier to get.

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Old 11-26-2011, 11:32 AM   #148
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Dasein wrote:

SpineDoc wrote:

kahonen wrote:

I never killed a contested mob and never worried about it.  There is no way in the world I would have ever been able to justify the effort needed to so was perfactly happy to do nomal raids and leave the contested stuff to others. 

They did the work, they got the rewards.  I never felt I lacked anything gear wise when raiding non-contested mobs.

Yeah but we live in a modern world now where "everyone" should have even the top most rewards.  In fact why even take the time and effort to raid?  If you wanted the absolute best mount in game all you have to do is get on station cash and spend some money, if you wanted the absolute best looking armor or weapon once again just spend some money at station cash.  We don't have stats yet on station cash, but I think we all have the common sense to know that will come one day.

The game as we knew it is gone.  The days of walking around and seeing someone in truly unique armor with a unique weapon and getting that feeling that you wanted to attain that thru hard work is gone, people just don't think that way anymore.  Watching EVERYONE run around in flaming mounts and flaming armor and flaming swords just makes me think how much would people covet a ferrari if EVERYONE had one?  SOE doesn't care one bit, they are making money selling those Ferrari's to people, why would they waste their time on actually making it "hard" for someone to get a Ferrari?

Selling things for real money does make them rare, as only a very small percentage of the population will buy anything from the cash shop. In fact, charging real money is probably one of the best ways to create artificial scarcity - anything in game will be obtained by more and more people as it becomes easier to get.

I can only say this with anecdotal experience, but everytime a new mount comes out I see everyone and their grandmother riding it.  Just from looking around I don't see these items as being really that rare.  But even if station cash bought items were rare it's still besides the point, they were purchased with money from station cash and that's looked upon differently than an item you spent a lot of time and effort to get and is rare because of that time and effort.

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Old 11-26-2011, 01:30 PM   #149
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[email protected] wrote:

Finding wrote:

4- Lack of contested content. Either you are killing the contested stuff, or you trying to steal the contested stuff from top guild. That was end game. That was MMO.

That was MMO for college kids and high school students with no job and no life.

Sorry. I didn't enjoy getting early am phone calls being told to log in to kill X mob.

NEWSFLASH!! That content wasn't for you then! If you didn't enjoy putting in the effort or could not commit the time for it, then you should not have made it a goal of yours. It only appears to have frustrated you and made you bent out of shape to attempt those goals.  Guess what. PLENTY of other people enjoyed and had the time for the challenge. I had a full time job and there were others in my guild that had full time jobs and went to school at the same time that could and did get online when we needed.

When I didn't have the time to devote to such things, I removed myself from the equation. There was still plenty of other content equally as enjoyable in this game at the time. You can't say that now. simple as that. In fact there's no way I could do those things now but I still lament that the chase and challenege is only set in instance zones that are hardly developed properly, unimaginative, and contain rewards so unimpressive you can't remember the name of your own loot.  .

I honestly hope that people with like opinions such as yours didn't shout so loudly that they removed the content to cater to that opinion. I'd like to continue beliveing that the staff just couldn't support coming up with new strats/loot resources devoted to those kind of encounters due to cutbacks and also that the person at the helm supporting those decisions was more to blame. Sadly the way things are now I think the former is more true.  I don't think we'll see an era of contested mobs in MMOs such as we had in Norrath ever again.

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Old 11-26-2011, 04:58 PM   #150
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I really enjoyed contested content in the past. Some of the best times were rushing to get a raid together after a contested spawn. It really meant something to kill a contested because then no other guild could kill it. There was real pride to be in a top guild back in those days. If they really want to bring back enthusiasm for hard core raiding then putting in some significant contested mobs would be the way to do it.

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