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Old 11-18-2011, 10:15 AM   #991
Wingrider01

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[email protected] wrote:

What I want is not something handed to me for free. I don't want development to be unsupported. If my sub fee now includes a rental surcharge and my previous expansion costs now don't include races, so be it. (Can I get a sub fee reduction if I now "buy" races? ) Just don't blow smoke up my greaves that a 2nd charge for races isn't a new additional charge for something I paid in the past. Personally I don't intend to play without a sub - that game doesn't appeal to me nor do I require it to.

wookinz - I am not asking for anything for free, I want what I already paid additional funds for returned to me no matter what subscription model I utilize. I get a tad bit upset when things I paid money for are taken away and then be told that I will be required to pay additonal funds to get back - this model has nothing on BOA. as with issue with them, this issue is not being addressed by the PTB's at SOE, but that has become typical of the company over the past years, guess i is just a perfect example of "you got to know when to hold them and no when to fold them" and walk away.

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Old 11-18-2011, 06:12 PM   #992
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Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ruut Li wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What I want is not something handed to me for free. I don't want development to be unsupported. If my sub fee now includes a rental surcharge and my previous expansion costs now don't include races, so be it. (Can I get a sub fee reduction if I now "buy" races? ) Just don't blow smoke up my greaves that a 2nd charge for races isn't a new additional charge for something I paid in the past. Personally I don't intend to play without a sub - that game doesn't appeal to me nor do I require it to.

would prefer a refund of all the money that was spent to unlock theose features when it was required to buy the expansion to access the features - barring that pie in the sky a retro unlock of all the features already paid for by the purchase of the expansion no matter if there is a subscription or not, after all my canceled accounts states that I am still entitled to those

find it enlighting that there was a almost immediate post when the platinum people raised a stick about the "free expansion clause" but absolutely nothing is stated about double charging the legacy players by SOE, pretty much tells you how much they rate on their scale of importance

QFE!

Vive la resistance ffs!

Perhaps because the Platinum players were promised future expansions, whereas the "legacy" players were never promised anything if the game went free-to-play, perhaps?  Just a thought.

by the same token - legacy players where entitled access to the features that each indiviidual expansion brought forth - the legacy players where required to purchase the expansion to access the features.

On all of my unsubscibed accounts under game details, each and every one of the expansions that I purchased for additonial money still state entitlement, nothing about entitlement plus required paid subscription. The entitlement was paid for with additiinal funds over and above anything else. By the current theory of the F2P supports it does not matter if we paid extra for anything, it is perfeclty ok to remove entitlements that where an additional cost from those players, conversely to be fair, under the new model any paid subscriber that drops to F2P shoul have access to each and every item that they paid additional for removed - after all this is what they are claiming for the legacy players. It is only fair

The fallicy of compareing the real original subscription model to the dole model is invalid. unlike the current model players the legac players where required to purchase the expansion in addition to th subscription to access features, under the dole model they just have to pay the subscription and everything else is handed to them free.

I beg to differ.  I'm looking at my collector's edition Sentinel's Fate box right in front of my face and it clearly states "Additional subscription fees apply".  

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Old 11-19-2011, 05:01 AM   #993
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[email protected] wrote:

In  my opinion the sarnak arisai and fae classes should be available to anyone who has purchased any expansion.  No other classes or races should be given to any player free without unlocking them.  Those three make sense because they came with expansions, and if you buy any expansion you get all of the content from the expansions before it.  So if they have bought the expansion then they have already bought the races.

I came to this thread to find out information about this in particular and believe this same thing. Purchase of those expansion packs gauranteed access to those races. To have them taken away would be wrong. And if anyone is actually claiming that we are asking for something for free... I paid $40 (or $60, I don't remember) for the base game and each expansion pack (for two accounts even!). Off the top of my head, that's the base game + 7 expansions + the 3 adventure packs (yep, I bought them before they became standard in one of the all-in-one packs) + my 12 years of subscription fees(*) multiplied by 2 (and sometimes a 3rd acct) add up to more than I can even imagine, or want to for that matter, and they think I'm asking for something for free? The numbers aren't even the heart of it. It stated on the box and in the promos that the purchase of those expansions would entitle us to those races. Taking them away unless we maintain a Gold account is just plain wrong. I shouldn't have to pay again for something I already paid for. 

http://everquest2.com/news/read/112007/1401

Sub fees were charged for access to the servers. Even if I didn't pay my sub (and thus couldn't access my account) my account remained entitled to those expansions, races, and so forth that I paid for, even if I couldn't use them. You can't decide suddenly that I'm no longer just paying for access to the servers but charging me again for what I've already paid for when I bought the expansion originally. 

*Edit: I just realized this could be misconstrued. I played EQ 1 & EQ 2, sometimes even at the same time so yes I've been paying sub fees for 12 years, just not necessarily for only EQ 2. I guess I should say 7 years of sub fees.

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:50 AM   #994
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[email protected] wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ruut Li wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What I want is not something handed to me for free. I don't want development to be unsupported. If my sub fee now includes a rental surcharge and my previous expansion costs now don't include races, so be it. (Can I get a sub fee reduction if I now "buy" races? ) Just don't blow smoke up my greaves that a 2nd charge for races isn't a new additional charge for something I paid in the past. Personally I don't intend to play without a sub - that game doesn't appeal to me nor do I require it to.

would prefer a refund of all the money that was spent to unlock theose features when it was required to buy the expansion to access the features - barring that pie in the sky a retro unlock of all the features already paid for by the purchase of the expansion no matter if there is a subscription or not, after all my canceled accounts states that I am still entitled to those

find it enlighting that there was a almost immediate post when the platinum people raised a stick about the "free expansion clause" but absolutely nothing is stated about double charging the legacy players by SOE, pretty much tells you how much they rate on their scale of importance

QFE!

Vive la resistance ffs!

Perhaps because the Platinum players were promised future expansions, whereas the "legacy" players were never promised anything if the game went free-to-play, perhaps?  Just a thought.

by the same token - legacy players where entitled access to the features that each indiviidual expansion brought forth - the legacy players where required to purchase the expansion to access the features.

On all of my unsubscibed accounts under game details, each and every one of the expansions that I purchased for additonial money still state entitlement, nothing about entitlement plus required paid subscription. The entitlement was paid for with additiinal funds over and above anything else. By the current theory of the F2P supports it does not matter if we paid extra for anything, it is perfeclty ok to remove entitlements that where an additional cost from those players, conversely to be fair, under the new model any paid subscriber that drops to F2P shoul have access to each and every item that they paid additional for removed - after all this is what they are claiming for the legacy players. It is only fair

The fallicy of compareing the real original subscription model to the dole model is invalid. unlike the current model players the legac players where required to purchase the expansion in addition to th subscription to access features, under the dole model they just have to pay the subscription and everything else is handed to them free.

I beg to differ.  I'm looking at my collector's edition Sentinel's Fate box right in front of my face and it clearly states "Additional subscription fees apply".  

the "additional fees" are required to ACCESS the service for the account, please show me where it states that if you do not subscribe all of your previously payed for ENTITLEMENTS are removed - two completely different things - they are worse the BOA, subscription or not we long time legacy players have already paided for the ability to access these features, there is only one  difference between a f2p purchasing the acccess for additional functionality with station cash and legacy players who purchased the access for the cost of the expanion - what to know what that difference is? Legacy players have to pay twice for the same thing the a f2p player pays once for. Even though I have multiple accounts that are no longer subscribed the account page for game detail STILL has the simple piece of information that those accounts are still entitled to what was purchased for additional funds. It does not sya "entitled with valid subscription"

Under the real model that supported this game for 7 years you had to pay for the subscription to just be given the privlige of accessing the servers, if you wanted to access the features that where avaialble with each expasnion you had to buy the expansion - you where not handed it for free. The f2p supports really can't comprehend that simple fact. Would love to see the screams and cries of anguish if the same rules applied to the new "gold" and  "platinum" subscribers - you drop to f2p to lose access to everything that you paid additional funds for through sc. After all that is what is happening to the legacy players.

Still find it amusing that they junmped on the complaining about the expansion not being handed to the players for free and still have not addresses one single post on the double dipping charges that legacy players are being hit with if they decide to drop their subscription

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:36 AM   #995
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[email protected] wrote:

Perhaps because the Platinum players were promised future expansions, whereas the "legacy" players were never promised anything if the game went free-to-play, perhaps?  Just a thought.

Or perhaps it's because "legacy" players were promised that F2P would never come to their servers.

And stop banging on about subscriptions, it's already been proven that people paid for extra content thru expansions, not subs.

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:43 AM   #996
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[email protected]_old wrote:

SiegaPlays wrote:

Where do you get the 40$ of free stuff from...

Who cares about EQ2x Plat memberships? 

My reply was exclusively a response to the quoted comment about platinums getting stuff for free. Because someone did care enough to make it an argument in their venting. The fact is, platinum is paying fully for what they get through their subscription. 

I did in no way comment or make a pro or con stand on wether or not long time subs should have access to all race and class packs on free and silver accounts.

But since you ask so nicely, here is where I stand:

If a person bought an expansion wihtin 6 months of the expansions release, the account should be flagged for all races and classes included in said expansion.

If not, stay on gold sub for the access (as you also currently have to) or unlock it for free/silver, because you'd be SoL, if I was in charge.

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Old 11-19-2011, 05:07 PM   #997
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Tinkr wrote:

I read the article about EQIIX being merged with EQII Live, and I can see both pros and cons with that. Lots more spam in chat, lol.

Anyway, my question is about All Access Subscribers, it says that all current EQ2 Live subscribers will be renamed "Gold Subscribers", and everything else will remain the same for them. Will All Access Subscribers have a "Gold" membership with the added benefits of all access such as more character slots?

Just curious...

I was wondering about some of this as well. I asked in the thread on the Extended forums. I guess I should have asked here first.

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Old 11-19-2011, 05:26 PM   #998
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Here's a thought.  (Warning, I have NOT read all 60+ pages to see if this was already dealt with/answered by an official Sony representative.)

Has there been an official statement relating to the folowing?

If a character was created to take advantage of a subscription account, (such as race, class, gear and master spells), and then the account was reduced, would the character, the items, and or the spells then become unavailable?

The reason I ask -

I have seen a lot of people complaining that they will no longer be able to access their characters, due to the race and class, and expect to find their equipped gear sitting in their inventory un-equippable, but the ONLY official statement I have seen has been concerning spells, and that was that spells CURRENTLY SCRIBED, STAY SCRIBED; new spells, however have to be unlocked.

Why can this not apply to other aspectes of existing characters?

For example:

You keep the gear you've got, but if you change it, you have to unlock the new.

You keep the characters you have, but if you want to create a NEW character with one of the restriced races or classes, you then have to unlock them.

===

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Old 11-19-2011, 06:21 PM   #999
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Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ruut Li wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What I want is not something handed to me for free. I don't want development to be unsupported. If my sub fee now includes a rental surcharge and my previous expansion costs now don't include races, so be it. (Can I get a sub fee reduction if I now "buy" races? ) Just don't blow smoke up my greaves that a 2nd charge for races isn't a new additional charge for something I paid in the past. Personally I don't intend to play without a sub - that game doesn't appeal to me nor do I require it to.

would prefer a refund of all the money that was spent to unlock theose features when it was required to buy the expansion to access the features - barring that pie in the sky a retro unlock of all the features already paid for by the purchase of the expansion no matter if there is a subscription or not, after all my canceled accounts states that I am still entitled to those

find it enlighting that there was a almost immediate post when the platinum people raised a stick about the "free expansion clause" but absolutely nothing is stated about double charging the legacy players by SOE, pretty much tells you how much they rate on their scale of importance

QFE!

Vive la resistance ffs!

Perhaps because the Platinum players were promised future expansions, whereas the "legacy" players were never promised anything if the game went free-to-play, perhaps?  Just a thought.

by the same token - legacy players where entitled access to the features that each indiviidual expansion brought forth - the legacy players where required to purchase the expansion to access the features.

On all of my unsubscibed accounts under game details, each and every one of the expansions that I purchased for additonial money still state entitlement, nothing about entitlement plus required paid subscription. The entitlement was paid for with additiinal funds over and above anything else. By the current theory of the F2P supports it does not matter if we paid extra for anything, it is perfeclty ok to remove entitlements that where an additional cost from those players, conversely to be fair, under the new model any paid subscriber that drops to F2P shoul have access to each and every item that they paid additional for removed - after all this is what they are claiming for the legacy players. It is only fair

The fallicy of compareing the real original subscription model to the dole model is invalid. unlike the current model players the legac players where required to purchase the expansion in addition to th subscription to access features, under the dole model they just have to pay the subscription and everything else is handed to them free.

I beg to differ.  I'm looking at my collector's edition Sentinel's Fate box right in front of my face and it clearly states "Additional subscription fees apply".  

the "additional fees" are required to ACCESS the service for the account, please show me where it states that if you do not subscribe all of your previously payed for ENTITLEMENTS are removed - two completely different things - they are worse the BOA, subscription or not we long time legacy players have already paided for the ability to access these features, there is only one  difference between a f2p purchasing the acccess for additional functionality with station cash and legacy players who purchased the access for the cost of the expanion - what to know what that difference is? Legacy players have to pay twice for the same thing the a f2p player pays once for. Even though I have multiple accounts that are no longer subscribed the account page for game detail STILL has the simple piece of information that those accounts are still entitled to what was purchased for additional funds. It does not sya "entitled with valid subscription"

Under the real model that supported this game for 7 years you had to pay for the subscription to just be given the privlige of accessing the servers, if you wanted to access the features that where avaialble with each expasnion you had to buy the expansion - you where not handed it for free. The f2p supports really can't comprehend that simple fact. Would love to see the screams and cries of anguish if the same rules applied to the new "gold" and  "platinum" subscribers - you drop to f2p to lose access to everything that you paid additional funds for through sc. After all that is what is happening to the legacy players.

Still find it amusing that they junmped on the complaining about the expansion not being handed to the players for free and still have not addresses one single post on the double dipping charges that legacy players are being hit with if they decide to drop their subscription

Yes, and this is simple.  If you want the things you were "entitled" to, when "additional subscription fees" applied, you need a subscription.  Now there's a ftp model, and that has nothing to do with the subscription model.  It's separate and different.  So if you want to play with your entitlements, you get a subscription.  If you want to play ftp, you play within those restrictions, or you pay.

They're two different models.  There is no overlap.  I'm not passing judgement on whether it's "right" or "fair", I'm simply stating what it *IS".  That's what people need to understand.  Like I said before, it would possibly be a smart PR move for SOE to allow previous subscribers an "unlock key"; whether or not they do is not up to us and remains to be seen.  But the fact of the matter is, they DON'T owe it to people based on what your account says your entitlements are.  Because again:

Subscription:  list of entitlements

ftp: no entitlements

Two different models

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Old 11-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #1000
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[email protected] wrote:

Stuff

Streppoch?  I think we're trying to convince a bunch of people who think that: "I only play one character really in raids and being i'm on a DKP system I only need to unlock an item once every couple of days at most so if I have my race and class unlocked I will pay nothing at all besides a couple dollars a month."

IE:  They want to play the game free, raid for free, and feel entitled to having everything for free, when it never has been free, and despite it being called "Free to play", it really isn't.

And nothing that we say, do, or point out regarding how the service worked or is going to work is going to change their mind.  They want to play the game for free without any questions asked.

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:05 PM   #1001
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this isn't free to play , this is the end of LIVE

the sooner you people get that the sooner you can move on .

you want my stuff ? 

we know drama

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:13 PM   #1002
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YES PLX!

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:13 PM   #1003
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Dreyco wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Stuff

Streppoch?  I think we're trying to convince a bunch of people who think that: "I only play one character really in raids and being i'm on a DKP system I only need to unlock an item once every couple of days at most so if I have my race and class unlocked I will pay nothing at all besides a couple dollars a month."

IE:  They want to play the game free, raid for free, and feel entitled to having everything for free, when it never has been free, and despite it being called "Free to play", it really isn't.

And nothing that we say, do, or point out regarding how the service worked or is going to work is going to change their mind.  They want to play the game for free without any questions asked.

*sigh*  I know, Dreyco.  I guess somewhere inside my curdled, black and jaded heart lies a tiny shard of optimism; that somehow, if I keep explaining it in a different way, I might hit on the explanation that makes people see and understand.

But then there's that definition of insanity...

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:25 PM   #1004
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Quote: "*sigh*  I know, Dreyco.  I guess somewhere inside my curdled, black and jaded heart lies a tiny shard of optimism; that somehow, if I keep explaining it in a different way, I might hit on the explanation that makes people see and understand."

Unfortunately, the same applies to you. You don't get what we are trying to say. The FTP model does not apply to how legacy accounts should be handled. We are saying that we should get to keep the races we already purchased when we bought those expansions. If you didn't buy EoF when it came out you didn't get fae or arasai. If you didn't buy RoK, you didn't get to play a sarnak. Buying the expansion entitled us to those races. NOT paying a subscription. You could buy the expansion, add it to a lasped acct, and the account would be entitled to having fae, arasai, or sarnak. It didn't matter that you couldn't access them until you paid for an active sub you were still entitled to it. As far as FTP, if you want to compare it to that, as far as I know they don't buy expansions. You load it up and you are given access to the latest content. They didn't have to spend (roughly) $350 on the base game and expansions. In that case, sure, charge em for a race pack. But legacy players did in fact have to pay $350. For what, then, if you claim that we are only "renting" any races, quests, or whatever we can access?

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Old 11-19-2011, 09:44 PM   #1005
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[email protected] wrote:

Quote: "*sigh*  I know, Dreyco.  I guess somewhere inside my curdled, black and jaded heart lies a tiny shard of optimism; that somehow, if I keep explaining it in a different way, I might hit on the explanation that makes people see and understand."

Unfortunately, the same applies to you. You don't get what we are trying to say. The FTP model does not apply to how legacy accounts should be handled. We are saying that we should get to keep the races we already purchased when we bought those expansions. If you didn't buy EoF when it came out you didn't get fae or arasai. If you didn't buy RoK, you didn't get to play a sarnak. Buying the expansion entitled us to those races. NOT paying a subscription. You could buy the expansion, add it to a lasped acct, and the account would be entitled to having fae, arasai, or sarnak. It didn't matter that you couldn't access them until you paid for an active sub you were still entitled to it. As far as FTP, if you want to compare it to that, as far as I know they don't buy expansions. You load it up and you are given access to the latest content. They didn't have to spend (roughly) $350 on the base game and expansions. In that case, sure, charge em for a race pack. But legacy players did in fact have to pay $350. For what, then, if you claim that we are only "renting" any races, quests, or whatever we can access?

Contingent on your subscription.  No subscription, no nothing.

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Old 11-19-2011, 10:32 PM   #1006
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people are taking this way too seriously for no good reason.

 you're still going to pay the same amount you do now and can even down grade alt accounts to silver and save some cash in the long run.

 good luck finding another way to entertain your self as much as you can in this game for $15 a month.

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Old 11-19-2011, 10:51 PM   #1007
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I used to really dislike F2P, but over the last year it has grown on me. I never actually PLAY f2p, I always pay the full sub, but I've found that it gives games a new lease on life, more people to play with and while there will be idiots here and there, there are idiots here and there on live anyway.

I think people dread the unknown and change. I know I usually do. I think once all is said and done people will move on and continue to enjoy the game the exact same way they're doing now, only with more options for subbing (or not subbing) and probably more SC stuff since SOE really loves their marketplace.

I've decided to try and be positive about the changes and really hope that the up in populance gives me a chance to do some of these lower dungeons I've been dying to do for ages. ^~

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Old 11-20-2011, 12:43 AM   #1008
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I'm entirely for new players joining the game and enlivening the lower level areas of the game.  I hope many new high-end players, elitists, decorators, group players, or soloists come out of it.

I dread the possibility that many of these new players will be the Barrens chat players, the GaiaOnline players, the Maple Story players.  I don't want the game I started playing for indepth content and beautiful design steered by the mindset of players that prefer to be obnoxious, all-caps-at-all-times players that you see predominantly in the aforementioned games.  I don't want the game steered to focus on pay to win or even a marketplace at all. 

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:02 AM   #1009
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[email protected] wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Ruut Li wrote:

Wingrider01 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What I want is not something handed to me for free. I don't want development to be unsupported. If my sub fee now includes a rental surcharge and my previous expansion costs now don't include races, so be it. (Can I get a sub fee reduction if I now "buy" races? ) Just don't blow smoke up my greaves that a 2nd charge for races isn't a new additional charge for something I paid in the past. Personally I don't intend to play without a sub - that game doesn't appeal to me nor do I require it to.

would prefer a refund of all the money that was spent to unlock theose features when it was required to buy the expansion to access the features - barring that pie in the sky a retro unlock of all the features already paid for by the purchase of the expansion no matter if there is a subscription or not, after all my canceled accounts states that I am still entitled to those

find it enlighting that there was a almost immediate post when the platinum people raised a stick about the "free expansion clause" but absolutely nothing is stated about double charging the legacy players by SOE, pretty much tells you how much they rate on their scale of importance

QFE!

Vive la resistance ffs!

Perhaps because the Platinum players were promised future expansions, whereas the "legacy" players were never promised anything if the game went free-to-play, perhaps?  Just a thought.

by the same token - legacy players where entitled access to the features that each indiviidual expansion brought forth - the legacy players where required to purchase the expansion to access the features.

On all of my unsubscibed accounts under game details, each and every one of the expansions that I purchased for additonial money still state entitlement, nothing about entitlement plus required paid subscription. The entitlement was paid for with additiinal funds over and above anything else. By the current theory of the F2P supports it does not matter if we paid extra for anything, it is perfeclty ok to remove entitlements that where an additional cost from those players, conversely to be fair, under the new model any paid subscriber that drops to F2P shoul have access to each and every item that they paid additional for removed - after all this is what they are claiming for the legacy players. It is only fair

The fallicy of compareing the real original subscription model to the dole model is invalid. unlike the current model players the legac players where required to purchase the expansion in addition to th subscription to access features, under the dole model they just have to pay the subscription and everything else is handed to them free.

I beg to differ.  I'm looking at my collector's edition Sentinel's Fate box right in front of my face and it clearly states "Additional subscription fees apply".  

the "additional fees" are required to ACCESS the service for the account, please show me where it states that if you do not subscribe all of your previously payed for ENTITLEMENTS are removed - two completely different things - they are worse the BOA, subscription or not we long time legacy players have already paided for the ability to access these features, there is only one  difference between a f2p purchasing the acccess for additional functionality with station cash and legacy players who purchased the access for the cost of the expanion - what to know what that difference is? Legacy players have to pay twice for the same thing the a f2p player pays once for. Even though I have multiple accounts that are no longer subscribed the account page for game detail STILL has the simple piece of information that those accounts are still entitled to what was purchased for additional funds. It does not sya "entitled with valid subscription"

Under the real model that supported this game for 7 years you had to pay for the subscription to just be given the privlige of accessing the servers, if you wanted to access the features that where avaialble with each expasnion you had to buy the expansion - you where not handed it for free. The f2p supports really can't comprehend that simple fact. Would love to see the screams and cries of anguish if the same rules applied to the new "gold" and  "platinum" subscribers - you drop to f2p to lose access to everything that you paid additional funds for through sc. After all that is what is happening to the legacy players.

Still find it amusing that they junmped on the complaining about the expansion not being handed to the players for free and still have not addresses one single post on the double dipping charges that legacy players are being hit with if they decide to drop their subscription

Yes, and this is simple.  If you want the things you were "entitled" to, when "additional subscription fees" applied, you need a subscription.  Now there's a ftp model, and that has nothing to do with the subscription model.  It's separate and different.  So if you want to play with your entitlements, you get a subscription.  If you want to play ftp, you play within those restrictions, or you pay.

They're two different models.  There is no overlap.  I'm not passing judgement on whether it's "right" or "fair", I'm simply stating what it *IS".  That's what people need to understand.  Like I said before, it would possibly be a smart PR move for SOE to allow previous subscribers an "unlock key"; whether or not they do is not up to us and remains to be seen.  But the fact of the matter is, they DON'T owe it to people based on what your account says your entitlements are.  Because again:

Subscription:  list of entitlements

ftp: no entitlements

Two different models

So basicly you are agreeing that if they take the "entitlements" that where obtained by spending extra funds away from the legacy players that it is perfectly ok to take away the entitlements that platinum / gold member paid for with extra funds when and if they drop to free to play and force them to repurhcase everything - same exact thing -

does not matter if it is two different models - they are removing items that where paid for with additional funds by the legacy players - THAT IS THE KEY POINT, if they do that to the legacy players they need to be consistant and do it to each and every player that drops to the F2P model - does not matter what wsa purchased. I paid full price with station cash for multiple copies of the collectors edition of DOV - if I drop to the new model - those options that I paid for in addtion to the subscription are removed from my abilty - just how hard is it to understand that - how would the pampered platinium subscription people feel if they removed all the items that where not avaialble inthe f2p model that they payed SC for if they dropped to f2p? that is exactly what they are doing to the legacy players, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

At least the other games that went to this model did not remove anything from their loyal legacy players - if they paid for the feature by purchasing the expansions they got to keep it, unlike the BOA model that is being used here

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:15 AM   #1010
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F2P brings a lot of new players into the low level game - most of which will never reach the end game.

End game players quit because end game content is so horribly broken right now there's nowhere to go and/or new and exciting MMOs are released (SWTOR for example).

Devs devote even less resources to end game content and focus on low level content.

Sad state of affairs indeed. Having a level 90 character is about to become a detriment.

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Old 11-20-2011, 12:10 PM   #1011
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I seriously can't understand why people are still going on and on about this.  This is a GOOD thing people!!  A good thing.  Let me show you.

Ok, if under the current non-merged plan I stop paying my monthly fees as a legacy player what do I get??  I get nothing, nada, zilch.  I can't get online, I can't get to my server, I can't even access my characters in any way or talk with my guild or any other friends I had on the server.  I'm done playing until I start paying my monthly fees again.

Now, if after the merge you'd still like to be under that current non-merged plan then you can.  Just don't log in or play at all after you stop paying your monthly subscription and bingo, your still under the same old school plan.

No matter which plan I'm on, pre-merge or post-merge, I still go back to full playability when I start paying my full rate monthly fees again.

Now lets flip over to the merged plan.  As a gold, full paying member I get 500 SC each month.  That's 500 SC per month that I can apply to new character slots, or saving up for if I do downgrade my membership to free to unlock races and content at that level.  This is also 500 SC more than what I was getting under the old non-merged plan.

So lets say under the new, merged plan, I do want to downgrade to free status for a while for whatever reason.  Firstly, I can now still access my account, the server, the game, and my guild and friends.  I didn't have that kind of access under the old non-merged plan.  Next, if I pre-planned my downgrade I've got enough SC to unlock my favorite character or a character slot that I can create a free to play character in.  But lets say I didn't have time to pre-plan.  Lets say I had to downgrade to free in a hurry and I have no SC built up.  Well in this instance I can head over to Google, start up a new Gmail account, come back to EQ2 website, create a new account, create a new character, and still be on the same server, with my old guild and friends.  I could't do that in the current non-merged plan.

In either case, when I start paying my monthly subscriptions on my main account again I'll be right back in the game, with everything I had before.  No matter how much you all keep griping I fail to see the problem with the merge.  As I see it, I'll be getting 500 SC that I'm not getting now and the ability to keep playing on my server with my friends and guild even if I have to stop paying for EQ2.

Oh, and as for the "oh we'll get a bunch of goons from other games" gripe.  Maybe we will, but I'm betting we'll get just as many new good players as well.  Once again, I think benifits of more players outweighs the possibility of some stupid talk in chat.

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Old 11-20-2011, 12:36 PM   #1012
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Actually good players are a single digit percentage to the bad.  We'll definitely be receiving more of the bad part.

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Old 11-20-2011, 01:59 PM   #1013
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[email protected] wrote:

Actually good players are a single digit percentage to the bad.  We'll definitely be receiving more of the bad part.

That statement is speculation, perception, and opinion all wrapped into one.  Firstly you'll find no real data or even horribly flawed opinion polls to verify that.  Secondly, it all depends on what value you, me, and the rest of the players place on what makes a "good" player and that opinion can vary greatly between players.

I've seen and met plenty of people that said rude and crude things over chat, even to the extent to call people names, talk about stupid topics, etc etc.  However I've seen those very same people being very competent and organized raid leaders.  I've seen those very same rude folks being very capable in PvP.  I've seen those very same folks knowing how to play their character very well.  I've also seen the reverse, those people who are very nice and try to help in every way they can but when it comes to playing the game they suck a mile of chicken rump.  The value then becomes which is better, being able to play the game or being friendly and helpful?

Then there's the possibility of their roleplaying skills.  I'm not talking about the numbers there.  I'm talking about their acting skills.  Many players would put a high value on that, myself included.  I've seen many people who were brilliant at acting out their character but couldn't play their character well in combat.  Once again, a matter of which you consider more important.

For myself, I'd take a helpful person or a great roleplayer over a great gameplayer any day.  Others may not feel the same and would rather see folks that can kill mobs like there's no tomorrow.  It's all in where you define a "good" player.

As for SOE focusing more on lower level content do you really think that would be the case??  They kick out about an expansion a year and add in even more content between expansions.  I highly doubt, given SOE's track record with EQ 1 and other games that they would just totally neglect high end content.  I could be wrong, but I think you'll still find plenty of new high end content after the merge.

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Old 11-20-2011, 02:52 PM   #1014
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[email protected] wrote:

Actually good players are a single digit percentage to the bad.  We'll definitely be receiving more of the bad part.

I am sure you can also provide us with proof of your statement? New people will flock the server if you want it or not. Might be a few bad apples in them but they are still better for the community then the "i am a highend player and all the rest of you is a peasant" community which you are part of. Btw. have guys already finished the highend content the game currently has or you guys need to wait until the peasants get nearer so they can help you guys out with the so called "i can't beat the content so it must be broken" highend raids?

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Old 11-20-2011, 03:26 PM   #1015
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Ginfress02 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Actually good players are a single digit percentage to the bad.  We'll definitely be receiving more of the bad part.

I am sure you can also provide us with proof of your statement? New people will flock the server if you want it or not. Might be a few bad apples in them but they are still better for the community then the "i am a highend player and all the rest of you is a peasant" community which you are part of. Btw. have guys already finished the highend content the game currently has or you guys need to wait until the peasants get nearer so they can help you guys out with the so called "i can't beat the content so it must be broken" highend raids?

To be fair, and I am not trolling you but once the scripts for endgame are actually fixed and working, it is irrelevant whether they can help out or not. Progression will once again become a reality instead of the stagnation that exists at the moment.

Arguably, if less time was spent developing fluff and the (mostly) lower end SC products, there would be resource available to develop and test the fixes.

None of that will address what is atm theory in that the current end game does not even exist yet.

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Old 11-20-2011, 07:32 PM   #1016
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This announcement is not surprising in the least.  My main issue with it is just how disingenuous it is in trying to sell the change.  You had to be either in an extreme state of denial OR you needed to be living under a rock to not see this coming, especially when DCUO went that way.  What I find disingenuous is the BS about "where the industry is going."  There are many AAA game designers who still see the subscription model as a viable options.  Heck some see it necessary due to the multi miliion dollar budgets of the AAA market.  That is why many companies have different games of differing quality in terms of graphics etc and each has a different financial model.  The idea that EQ2 is changing to f2p because the industry is, is simply patently false.

EQ2 is changing because its subscription side has been steadily dropping.  The days of the huge spikes are gone but there was still a steady decline.  They need sources of revenue to fund EQNext developement and other projects so due to their INTERNAL trends they needed to make this change.  I do not begrudge them the change.  They have a VP to answer too who in turn has an Exec VP to answer to who in turn... you get the idea but trying to make it seem like the whole MMO market is going f2p in the hopes that players who on principle hate the concept will not look for non-f2p games is distateful.  Give the reasons for your change, sell your game for what it is.  If your game is worth a dang then people will come or stay.  It just seems like, to an extent, the announcement is an attempt to say "well guys we know you like EQ2, sorry we had to do this but EVERYONE else is doing it too so even if you don't like f2p where are you going to go?"  That to me is hucksterism at it's finest.

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:26 PM   #1017
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Wingrider01 wrote:

So basicly you are agreeing that if they take the "entitlements" that where obtained by spending extra funds away from the legacy players that it is perfectly ok to take away the entitlements that platinum / gold member paid for with extra funds when and if they drop to free to play and force them to repurhcase everything - same exact thing -

does not matter if it is two different models - they are removing items that where paid for with additional funds by the legacy players - THAT IS THE KEY POINT, if they do that to the legacy players they need to be consistant and do it to each and every player that drops to the F2P model - does not matter what wsa purchased. I paid full price with station cash for multiple copies of the collectors edition of DOV - if I drop to the new model - those options that I paid for in addtion to the subscription are removed from my abilty - just how hard is it to understand that - how would the pampered platinium subscription people feel if they removed all the items that where not avaialble inthe f2p model that they payed SC for if they dropped to f2p? that is exactly what they are doing to the legacy players, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

At least the other games that went to this model did not remove anything from their loyal legacy players - if they paid for the feature by purchasing the expansions they got to keep it, unlike the BOA model that is being used here

Okay, I'm just going to come out and be blunt, here.  What this boils down to is greed.  Not on the part of SOE, but on the part of the players.  Let's take a look at this, shall we?

Before the ftp announcement, if you could no longer pay your subscription, you had two options:

1.  Don't play EQ2 at all

2.  Go play on the ftp servers and create a new character with all the ftp restrictions

Nobody, under those circumstances, would have gone, "Hey SOE, I've been a loyal player for X amount of years--I've got entitlements!  You owe me for paying you.  I should have access to my character and stuff!"  No, you would have realised you couldn't pay your subscription, so you had to either not play the Live game or suck it up and go to the dreaded Extended server.

Now, AFTER the ftp announcement, we have all these Live players who have been faithfully paying their subs for years and years (and we all know it because you've been telling us this ad nauseum) who are suddenly in dire danger of possibly not being able to pay their subs and going to ftp and not being able to play their characters.  Wait, what?  

So now, if you could no longer pay your subscription, you have two options that are slightly different.

1.  Don't play EQ2 at all 

2.  Play ftp with possible access to some of your characters, or create a new character; but some of your characters you may not have access to because of some of the restrictions you have to pay for

And here comes the greed.  You think, "Hey, this is GREAT!  I can log onto EQ2 for free and play SOME of my characters without paying and have access to SOME races and use SOME of the expansions--maybe if I whine and scream and throw a tantrum about 'entitlements' and 'Legacy' and 'how long I've played' and 'how much money I've paid in the past' SOE will give me the rest of that stuff from the subscription model and I won't have to pay ANYTHING!  I can play the full EQ2 game for absolutely FREE!  Let the Gold Subscriber people who continue to support this game financially pay so *I* can get a free ride, because I'M ENTITLED TO IT!  SUCKERS!"

That's what's really going on here.  You're not worried about "what if I can't pay".  You're worried about "why can't I play everything for free because I want to".    

So, contrary to your statement, I *do* "get it", I *do* understand what you're saying, perfectly.  I'm just not on your side of the picket line.  I'm going to continue to pay my subscription fee and enjoy all the entitlements I've enjoyed all along, and welcome the new ftp players, come December.  

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Old 11-20-2011, 10:53 PM   #1018
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

This announcement is not surprising in the least.  My main issue with it is just how disingenuous it is in trying to sell the change.  You had to be either in an extreme state of denial OR you needed to be living under a rock to not see this coming, especially when DCUO went that way.  What I find disingenuous is the BS about "where the industry is going."  There are many AAA game designers who still see the subscription model as a viable options.  Heck some see it necessary due to the multi miliion dollar budgets of the AAA market.  That is why many companies have different games of differing quality in terms of graphics etc and each has a different financial model.  The idea that EQ2 is changing to f2p because the industry is, is simply patently false.

EQ2 is changing because its subscription side has been steadily dropping.  The days of the huge spikes are gone but there was still a steady decline.  They need sources of revenue to fund EQNext developement and other projects so due to their INTERNAL trends they needed to make this change.  I do not begrudge them the change.  They have a VP to answer too who in turn has an Exec VP to answer to who in turn... you get the idea but trying to make it seem like the whole MMO market is going f2p in the hopes that players who on principle hate the concept will not look for non-f2p games is distateful.  Give the reasons for your change, sell your game for what it is.  If your game is worth a dang then people will come or stay.  It just seems like, to an extent, the announcement is an attempt to say "well guys we know you like EQ2, sorry we had to do this but EVERYONE else is doing it too so even if you don't like f2p where are you going to go?"  That to me is hucksterism at it's finest.

Gotta love how when you point out truths that can't be denied people try to find another way around the bush to keep complaining.

First off the reason they're doing this doesn't really matter all that much.  However, lets assume that your an expert in the game market, which I doubt you are, and everything you've said is correct.  Do you really expect them to state that their product is in a state of suck at the moment?  That would be like me trying to sell a car and pointing out all its flaws and problems to potential buyers.  When I'm trying to sell something I'm going to point out all the great features on it, not the flaws.  That's just the way you do business.  It's up to the buyers to decide if what they're looking at is worth it or not.

Since you've presented yourself as an EXPERT in game markets though lets see some real data to support your claims.  Do you work for a major game reporting company?  Maybe a major game magazine or something like that?  Or maybe your a game developer that has this sort of info?

Now I'm not an expert in game markets but I can tell you from play experience that there are an awful lot of people playing free games right now.  Games like League of Legends, Black Prophecy, Glitch have very large and growing populations.  Furthermore there's lots of other F2P games on the horizon that have people's eyes, most notably Guild Wars 2 but that's only one of the many.

I'm not denying your statement, just saying it doesn't really matter in the big scheme of things and asking if you can provide some proof of what you say.  In my play experience I don't see it as totally true but then I'm no EXPERT.

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:25 PM   #1019
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By good I meant highly skilled players.  If you're under the impression that the highly skilled players are a larger than 10% portion of the playerbase you're out of your mind.

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Old 11-20-2011, 11:45 PM   #1020
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[email protected] wrote:

By good I meant highly skilled players.  If you're under the impression that the highly skilled players are a larger than 10% portion of the playerbase you're out of your mind.

 Once again, it's a perception.  "highly skilled" at what?  I would value a "highly skilled" roleplayer more than I would value a "highly skilled" game player.  I'm betting your talking about "highly skilled" game players.  Also that "highly skilled" game player your talking about could be a little rump munch in chat.  Someone I don't want to hear on there going on and on about whatever it is he believes is important.

Furthermore, I think by the numbers 50% of players would be "skilled" and 50% would suck since you have to establish how skilled the average player is.  Once you realize that the average "skilled" player is right at 50% then there becomes the 50% that can play better than the average and the 50% that can't.

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