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Old 01-06-2009, 11:05 AM   #61
Huntress Jellica

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ChodeNode1 wrote:

For as much of a pain as Coverage is to use, the damage percentage increase should be MUCH higher than what it is. My opinion: Scrap it and give us a new ability. Do the same with Stream while you're at it.

/agree

When I won Coverage M1 on a raid, my guild acted as if I should be elated and overjoyed to take it. Yeah, ok.. I'm so thrilled to spend DKP on a CA that makes me be 25 meters, or whatever, away from the mob when I should be within FIVE. Oh, and god forbid if the mob starts to move right as I go to hit Coverage. Right. What a waste of a hotkey. I tried to use it at least twenty times, and it only went off successfully two or three times. So I then proceeded to removed it from my bar. And when it did go off my DPS went... DOWN. How does that make sense?

One thing I'd like to add about Sniper Arrow.. It can be used at point blank range. As can Fittest Survival. But Sniper Arrow definitely needs a boost.. Less cast time and/or higher damge. I would prefer AND on that one.

Btw, I hate the DKP system, but that's for another message board =p

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Old 01-06-2009, 06:16 PM   #62
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I'd preffer to have coverage become actually usable wrather than just having an extra bonus to increas our next damage CA. I would wrather have coverage to be more of a temp buff with the same duration but affect ALL of our CA's and AA, but the % reduced to a number which it would be "balanced." But thats my suggestion, but anything is better than what we have now with coverage -.-

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Old 01-06-2009, 07:55 PM   #63
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OuTTerRange wrote:

Enough is enough!....

I dont know about the rest of you that play this particular class but im sick of assasins having crazy better dps..

I've heard tales of rangers being uber dpsers back in the day but ppl decided it was too much and we got nerfed to all hell.  Now im not saying they should nerf asssasin's because frankly i think nerfing is BS in the first place, BUT as rangers we should be the cream of the crop when it comes to ranged attacks PERIOD.....that doesnt seem to be the case, when u compare their range based attacks with ours not only do they get to pwn on all melee based damage but they also get better ranged attacks. Below are the three ranged attacks asssasins get ad 3

Ear Shot - 2055 - 3218 reuse 1 min

Deadly Blast - 692 - 946 and 382 - 636 reuse 20 sec

Spine Shot - 1861 - 2895 reuse 1 min

Ok now heres three of the ranged attacks rangers have ad 3

Amazing Arrow - 1607 - 2471 recast 1 min (MASTERED)

Vulnerable Arrow 1468 - 2240 recast 1 min

Rear Shot - 1719 - 2659 recast 1 min

Those are just sum examples of what rangers get for their primary attacks end game lvl vs assassins.

I dont care that assassins have ranged attacks but the fact that not only do assassins get ranged attacks that pwn ours but they get high melee attacks aswell. What do we get? Why dont we get melee attacks that just out right own the assassins? I think its time SoE wakes up and gives rangers back the DPS we deserve not only as a predator but as a RANGER. Its only logical and fair we pwn the ranged attack part of the world imo, so i think its time we get our rightful dps back.

First off Assassins do not get "crazy better" dps than rangers, unless you consider 10% more zone wide to be "crazy better".

Second yes "back in the day" rangers were uber dps, but that was because of the poison proc mechanic that proced your poison every attack you made including attacks that were themselves procs. So for instance the triple arrow CA would check three times for the poison proc, plus the aa plus the quick strick. then for each poison proc that went off it would check for the poison to proc off of that. So one shot could, and did cause poison to proc 10 times. You could go through an entire vial of poison in one fight.

Third we are the "cream of the crop" when it comes to ranged attacks. We have 12 ranged attacks, all but one of which can be used 51.7 meters away from the mob. Assassins have 3 none of which can be used more than 34.5 meters away. As for how the three assassin ranged cas compare with ours, allow me to compare the correct Ranger CA with each of the Assassin CAs:

Assassin: Deadly Blast - lvl 71 - 20 sec reuse - 0.74 cast - 0-34.5 range - 891-1242 + 445-742 damage

Ranger: Searing Shot - lvl 71 - 20 sec reuse - 0.37 cast - 2-51.7 range - 1026-1377 + 526-877 damage

Ranger CA is better in every way, cast time, range and damage.

Assassin: Spin Shot - lvl 71 - 60 sec reuse - 1.11 cast - 0-34.5 range - 2340-3567 damage must be behind

Ranger: Rear Shot - lvl 71 - 60 sec reuse - 1.11 cast - 2-51.7 range - 2172 - 3287 damage must be behind or flanking

Ranger CA has better range and is easier to use, assassin ca does about 8% more damage, hardly what I would call being "pwned"

Assassin: Ear Shot - lvl 78 - 60 sec reuse - 1.48 cast - 0-34.5 range - 2581-3969 damage must be behind or flanking

Ranger: Stealth Fire - lvl 78 - 90 sec reuse - 2.22 cast - 2-51.7 range - 3746-5910 damage must be stealthed

This one is a trade off. The Ranger ca takes 50% longer to cast and it's reuse time is 50% longer, however it does about 47% more damage, so the total damage per second (cast or reuse time) is within 5%, again hardly what I would call being "pwned".

Rangers and Assassins are different. We excell at the true ranged fight. Put me and the assassin 40 meters away from the mob and I will totally own him. Put us both 2 meters away and he will NOT totally own me. He might out dps me by a whole 10%. I don't know about you but I can live with that. We do NOT need to be the best DPS in every situation. We don't need to be the best DPS vs the quick kill running fight on trash mobs. Where we shine is the ranged fight vs the tough named mobs. I can stand at 40 meters an put out 80-85% off my total maximum DPS. Up close and personal, yes assassins win. But more than 10 meters away, and especialy up to 50, we own them big time. If you want to fight up close and personal all of the time, then play an assassin. If you want to be able to fight from 40 meters away, expecialy against those tough named mobs with the nasty aoes, then enjoy your ranger, because that is the fight he was designed to rule.

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Old 01-15-2009, 06:48 PM   #64
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Added a bug I found with the Ranged Mastery not upping the damage of the aoe component of explosive arrow.

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Old 01-16-2009, 10:25 AM   #65
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Because the AoE component is spell based and not ranged (check crit on your parse)

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Old 01-16-2009, 12:12 PM   #66
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

I haven't been a ranger as my main as long as most of you have I'm sure but after playing it for a few months I think this list should suffice as everything that needs to be done to this class in order to make us on par with most other dps classes.

Current bug:

With the Shadow AA Ranged Mastery, the AoE component to the Explosive arrow doesn't increase 10% base damage, or any damage at all.Current Issues: 1. More utility        We have 2 utility abilities. Focus aim and Attack hawk. Attack hawk is sort of useful, it transfers 10 or 15% (i forget which) of the groups hate to it, but it dies very quickly and has no use on most epic named becasue it dies to any aoe. Focus aim, i have a problem with. It increases melee's chance to hit by 25%. From talking to a couple other rangers, and considering where i'm put in a raid, we are usually in the mage group, with a troub and an illu, and other mages.  So in most cases it does nothing more than up the troub's dps by 10. This group buff is no where near as useful as the wizard's frigid gift. Make a valid dps buff for the group, or maybe even something that takes up one of the 3 cont slots that have no use! If you are in a dirge group with other melee, this buff will help them, in addition to dirge melee accuracy bonus. The new TSO AA's give a bonus to the amount of accuracy the group portion provides, but Aeralik thinks that this increase is huge, but I say it is not. The increase, even with 5 points, will not give the ranger enough utility to be better than say a wizard or assassin (in terms of utility).

Rangers do one thing and that is dps. We are not a utility or a hybird class in Aeralik's eyes.

2. Sniper arrow cast time        Assassin's big hit is execute. They have near instant cast for it, and hit upwards of 50k.  Sniper arrow, cast time is 5 seconds, 3.8 s ish with poise aa (which reduces cast by 35%), and with coverage and focus aim up, the highest i've ever hit was 38k. Which apparently is very high compared to what other rangers have been getting from what they said in the ranger channel. No one said they had gotten higher than me, though i'm sure someone did, but regardless, it's still going to be different by a huge margin to the assassin's.

This has been brought up before and it appears this will not be looked at. I would like a faster sniper, but I don;t think it will happen. As for the hit values, I;ve done over 45k myself and I've seen on the ranger channel some bigger hits than that. If anything, just fixed the casting speed. 3. Repeating Arrows Sucks, Take Daze Off        Repeating Arrows, is a combat art that lasts 30 sec, can be reduces with aa's as well as the cast time of each stream arrow which does 1k ish.  Cast time is about 1.5 seconds between arrows with no aas (it doesnt say what the cast time between arrows is on the description). Also between each Stream arrow, there is recovery time, i'd say about .5s ( I could be wrong about this).         The issue is this: auto attack is the biggest part of a ranger's dps.  Combat arts are secondary to ranged auto attack.  REPEATING ARROWS is a combat art, that lasts 30 seconds. So you know what happens when a combat art is being cast? That's right, no auto attacks can happen. So while this combat art is up, you are losing dps. The only time any respectable ranger will ever use this is on a pure ranged fight where the ranger is out of combat arts and wants to use repeating arrows for ONE stream shot. By the time that steam shot is cast, a ranged combat art is sure to be up, and if not, you know your ranged auto attack will be waiting to hit the mob for massive damage.          In summary this skill has no use to a ranger at all. I'm sure many have taken it off their hotbar by this point.         My suggestion would be to rework the skill completely;or Take the Daze OFF. If that is not possible, then there is no point in this skill. EXCEPT if you need to take a pee break and want ur raid to think ur not afk

LOL. Repeating arrows is simply a waste of time. I do not know what Aeralik was thinking on this when he created this CA, but repeating arrows is simply stupid.

4. Change Ranged CAs min range to 0        Probably this most important change of all would be this.  First, I'm sure most rangers worldwide still don't have their mythical, but this doesn't change the fact that the ranger's "sweet spot" is between 2m and 5m away from the mob. Reasoning for this: ranged ca's have a min range of 2m, melee combat arts (most of them) have a min range of 5m. In order to cast all your combat arts you need to be in between 2 and 5m away. The mythical enhances this effect further by increasing all damage 5m and below by 20%.          Now staying in this 2-5 range can be easy, depending on the encounter. Ones that move around a lot such as the tank being feared or knocked back means constant readjusting. Melee people have to readjust as well, but they don't have to worry about the 2m min range like we do.  Protector's realm: where every mob knocks back, has problems for rangers because we have to move back and forth every time it moves to get back into the sweet spot. It can be very frustrating.         Also like mobs in RE2, the sand goblin, where the idea is to bring everyone under a tent and kill the mob in the tent. WE CAN'T cast any ranged combat arts, only melee. Of course we can still auto attack because that was changed to 0m range thankfully (only with the epic), but we still lose major dps below 2m.

Aeralik has made us a melee fighter like every other scout class. Therefore, we have to follow that rule to a T. Now, I would like to see our close ranged CAs given some room, but again Aeralik must force us to be in the "Sweet" spot in order to get the best out of our Mythicals.

There are some fights that force us to be within "melee" range and thus will not allow us to use our ranged CAs. This hurts our overall dps and possible forcing some raidleaders to sit us in favor for a "higher" melee dps class like Assassin or Swash. Do I like this? Nope.5. Used arrows (aka self summoned arrows)        These arrows are useless to a ranger, unless u are poor or forgot to buy arrows. Hand crafted arrows are always better than Used Arrows. Many people in ranger channel suggest that this should be changed into a skill where it gives you an IMBUED stack of arrows, and i agree with them. These arrows should be special for the ranger class, and give a nice ability on them. Damage in most cases would be the perfect imbue, like the tenderwood arrows out of EH, which has 30-40 dmg proc on it, except make them better than handcrafted! Now I'm not a cheap guy, I buy arrows like everyone else, but RANGERS should be given an ability so that they dont have to rely on BUYING arrows. Rangers should have the ability to make the best arrows in the game! WE love ARROWS. We eat arrows. we drink arrows, we sleep and dream about arrows!        If these arrows are not going to be changed then, AT LEAST make bows that have the ability to summon ammo like in t7. PLEASE!

This will never be looked at since Used Arrows will never be better than crafted ones. God forbid we kill the woodcrafting market. Used arrows is a last resort CA if you run out of arrows. That's it. Remove this also.

Update: Number 6 seems to have been taken care of with TSO, there is many pieces of gear that have melee and ranged crit on them, and don't discriminate as much. Good Job Fyreflyte!6. Itemisation problems(rangers getting the short end of the stick)         When it comes to loot there is no question that there is more melee speced gear that rangers find useless. And there is some gear visa versa. In t7 it was a lot worse for rangers, there was no ranged double attack, on basicly anything, and there was a bit more da (for melees). With RoK we see a lot more RDA but only on select pieces of gear. With the change to disarming band, there was one gap filled but on the whole there really isn't many options for gear as a raiding ranger. Only the dead-eye shoulders and the 5 crit ones from pr area widely used(the class ones from vp are never used). I'm currently likeing Azleya's view on the situation where he suggested that fyreflyte should be putting more equal statting on items, for example, make things that have 4 crit (melee or ranged) have it's counter part on there aswell. Same for double attack (though they always put less rda vs da on items cuz our auto attack does big dmg).         Itemisation that makes one or the other class off dibs of the item seems kind of a waste. Heartbreaker wrist from tangrin is only useful for a ranger, add some melee crit or melee da on it, and then u have something desireable for both. same with many other items with only ranged or melee speced effects on it. Make it more equal!

7. Change coverage so that you don't have to worry about being near an agro mob.

        With all the new ae encounter mobs, this is another problem for rangers is for using coverage. If there are multiple mobs around the ranger, they are not able to use coverage. This will need to be changed. Also in addition to that, the 20 meter range is more annoying that nessisary. Having to back up and then hit coverage and then run back in to attack is a bit annoying, but I can understand if u want to put some restrictions such as that on it, as long as you reduce the cast time of sniper arrow. The cast time of coverage is not instant, as the spell says it is, it has a delay before and after going into it.

Good luck with this. This has been talked about before. Dead issue.

 8. Flurry and AE auto attack for Melee classes only- Not Fair To Rangers

         A new problem starting with gear and AA's in general for melee is becoming more unbalenced for rangers. They can flurry and AE attack on mobs that are within melee range, but rangers get no such equal for these skills.

Quoted from Azleya "We desperately need bow versions of these mechanics implemented, or else rangers simply won't be able to keep pace with other dps classes, especially with all the AE fights in TSO.  Don't be reactionary by waiting until months after the expansion to do this on the premise that you need to "see how things pan out" or that "rangers don't need it."  The former statement is one of complacency and the latter is delusional.  If other scout classes gain these mechanics and rangers don't, they're going to be at a serious disadvantage, resulting in (again) a lot of frustration from rangers and most likely cancelled accounts.  This prediction is not meant as a scare tactic, but simply as a reasonable prediction of reality based on past experience.  Be proactive.  Address the issues now before the frustration sets in."

These are the major changes that should be made in order to make us equal to other classes. Feel free to offer more problems to this list, but this list currently has a bunch of people agreeing with me in the world wide channel. These are confirmed issues that people have with this class.If we complain enough the Dev's WILL respond. I was a troubador when we had potm with root and daze and we got it changed into a spell equal of cob, (without root or daze) with enough people supporting it.

Although I d like the idea of getting more "AoE" attacks and such, but will it happen? I do know TSO has greatly helped other AoE classes like Warlock and Zerker in the dps department.  However, how can SoE help us here?

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Old 01-16-2009, 12:39 PM   #67
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Zizzu wrote:

LOL. Repeating arrows is simply a waste of time. I do not know what Aeralik was thinking on this when he created this CA, but repeating arrows is simply stupid.

Nothing, since it was just an update to the old T6 spell, that was one of the highest parsing arts, ranger had back in these days, if you even remember.

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Old 01-16-2009, 01:10 PM   #68
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stream was so over powered back in the day, just yank a named and hold on for dear life...even used it while tanking from time to time as a good aggro generator

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Old 01-16-2009, 03:27 PM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

Zizzu wrote:

LOL. Repeating arrows is simply a waste of time. I do not know what Aeralik was thinking on this when he created this CA, but repeating arrows is simply stupid.

Nothing, since it was just an update to the old T6 spell, that was one of the highest parsing arts, ranger had back in these days, if you even remember.

Back in the day indeed. But now, it's pretty worthless.

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Old 02-17-2009, 02:17 PM   #70
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Huntress Jellica wrote:

ChodeNode1 wrote:

For as much of a pain as Coverage is to use, the damage percentage increase should be MUCH higher than what it is. My opinion: Scrap it and give us a new ability. Do the same with Stream while you're at it.

/agree

When I won Coverage M1 on a raid, my guild acted as if I should be elated and overjoyed to take it. Yeah, ok.. I'm so thrilled to spend DKP on a CA that makes me be 25 meters, or whatever, away from the mob when I should be within FIVE. Oh, and god forbid if the mob starts to move right as I go to hit Coverage. Right. What a waste of a hotkey. I tried to use it at least twenty times, and it only went off successfully two or three times. So I then proceeded to removed it from my bar. And when it did go off my DPS went... DOWN. How does that make sense?

One thing I'd like to add about Sniper Arrow.. It can be used at point blank range. As can Fittest Survival. But Sniper Arrow definitely needs a boost.. Less cast time and/or higher damge. I would prefer AND on that one.

Btw, I hate the DKP system, but that's for another message board =p

Hey Jell,

I agree with you on Coverage, not to mention you probably miss an aa in the process of getting coverage and sniper off.  At least with SoA you can cast it and go take a [Removed for Content]....

Rangers need something other than pathfinding to make them useful in a raid.  We still do decent DPS from the scout/mage group.  Give us some utility and put us in a group with a dirge and we will light the place up.  Could care less if we are at top of parse with the assassins.  Just want to be needed in the raid.  We don't get the same opportunities, imo, because we give nothing back.  All the other scout classes have something that makes them unique and is needed in a raid/group setup. 

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Old 02-25-2009, 01:28 AM   #71
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  My main has been a ranger for the longest now, I have several other toons at 80, and played just about ever class out there. Rangers are reasonable class to play, except when you get to end-game, raid level. Most serious raid guilds will only allow one (1) ranger to join; only if they are very good (needing little to no help with class issues) and if they can show up. More importantly, is the "showing up" part, cause ranger DPS is easily replaced if real life kicks in and you miss a raid. Its who you know, not what you know when it comes to us rangers!!!

  Of course this is a bit eccentric, and over generalized statement. But wouldn't it be great, if rangers had some very unique ability that would help debuff mobs, where the whole raid would notice!!! And, I'm not forgetting any of the Shadow AA lines abilities when I say this. If we had some debuff/buff of actual value to compliment our main function of DPS'ing, it might turn heads a bit. Our cousin predetors (assassins) have hate transfers, and the gift of posion DPS to another, which is very useful to tanks. Several mage classes can come near or match or surpass our average DPS, and each of those classes still have several other very useful abilities. SK's can AoE mobs and really give use run for our money on any parser and they get to tank too!!!

  The point is, what can rangers do? Other than stun a mob for a few seconds, grab a little aggro for a few secs, use all our wealth to buy or make arrows, unlock a chest or two (which is another topic all together, if you have a healer paying attention, no point in unlocking a chest at all! For gods sakes, make opening a chest deadly at least!), and, of course, our DPS function. Rangers have nothing to contribute to the raid. Focus Aim is not needed, so don't even mention it! Monks have the same problem with their Raid buff, at least theirs is "Until Cancelled", instead of our 15 sec of in-combat (while nobody is looking) of glorious use!

  Let us make our own uber arrows! Comparable to crafted ones, if not better! And give use some raid/group buff, so people at least notice us, and not be refered to as "Oh-That-Ranger-Over-There"!!

PS - SoE, you can revamp the Fighters.... better balance out Mages and Scouts too! Each class should have a chance to see end-game content fairly(we pay for this), without having to schmooze it up with others, while a few other classes get a free ride!

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Old 02-25-2009, 02:02 AM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

  SK's can AoE mobs and really give use run for our money on any parser and they get to tank too!!!

 Focus Aim is not needed, so don't even mention it!

If you're losing to SKs in raids you have issues.

Focus Aim is amazingly utility considering the horrendous hit rates on lvl 88s.

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Old 02-25-2009, 07:05 AM   #73
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for a bit of usefullness how about making our off stance a group wide ranged increase as well or having another spell as a conc slot. Seeing as a lot of raid fights are jousting having extra ranged for the other scouty classes would be better than nothing.

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:44 AM   #74
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Gage wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

  SK's can AoE mobs and really give use run for our money on any parser and they get to tank too!!!

 Focus Aim is not needed, so don't even mention it!

If you're losing to SKs in raids you have issues.

Focus Aim is amazingly utility considering the horrendous hit rates on lvl 88s.

My second most widely played toon is, ironically, a Shadowknight! Nope, your right, mostly SKs do not out DPS rangers; but taking a few comical points out of a larger syntatical structure, is just twisting words, sadly.

Focus Aim is awesome for rangers and those around, but let me clarify: it goes mainly unnoticed! Unless of course you create a cheesy macro and scream for attention... Some classes sell themselves, others have to truelly work at it. That is the point. Plain and simple.

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Old 03-19-2009, 10:56 AM   #75
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Let's compare on equipment, just as evidence of how we take a hit. Out mythical is Ranged, it is what we use for DPS. It is our primary weapon. It is NOT recognized as a primary weapon for procs in most ( I know of none) on primary or secondary hand weapons. Most if not all adorns placed on the bow will affect and proc off of thier primary judicious gear etc.... For rangers nada. I have Skygazer's tooth, Lifespike, Nox Noctis, Betrayal's Song they give me stats but no procs off of my primary, Eagle's Talon.

I have heard the argument about the difference between 'any successful' and 'a successful', neither works off of our primary. For other's they will dual wield and get the benefits of thier mythical and any of the ones a ranger has. What fabled melee weapon can 'we' use that will proc anything from our primary attack as it does for every other melee for every other class dps or non dps?

Even our predator aa lines are lined up for melee not ranged melee. There are two predator's one ranged and one melee. How many predator aa's have a ranged focus? One of four lines has one ranged specific benefit. AA CA's are all melee not a single ranged. 1 out of 25 for ranged, why not 50/50?

An argument could be made for the stamina line in TSO except Surrounding attacks will not trigger off a ranged for instance.

I remember when Stream of Arrows was useful, it is not even on my hotbar any more, 30 seconds without an AutoAttack?

We were nerfed and we have basically stayed nerfed. My predator brother the assassin, can easily out DPS me in a group setting I do 10K he does 15K. I do compete on high end raid mobs and particulary mobs that need to be ranged like taskmaster. But day today dps in any setting we are a different tier than our brother predator, a lower tier. If you raid and you are not outparsed by your assassin ZW by a significant amount then your assassin sucks. 

Then let's talk about what it takes for us to compete in the way of support classes. Unsupported with an Illy and a dirge you are going to struggle to stay up DPS wise with even a swashy let alone and assassin.

Tough to get into an instance group? No Kidding all the other classes know a Ranger is not going to be great DPS unless they can find an Illy and a Dirge to go with the ranger.

I have kept thinking that the cycle would work it's way through and the ranger would get to equal footing again. I like that getting a ranger to produce good DPS is not easy. I think it is the most involving class and the toughest  melee based DPS to master. It has been my main toon since  starting, but my assassin is getting more and more play time. And it is much easier to get invites playing him.

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Old 03-19-2009, 03:19 PM   #76
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Gage wrote:

Focus Aim is amazingly utility considering the horrendous hit rates on lvl 88s.

I would agree, but the application leaves something to be desired. When a top ranger in a top guild gets a group built around them, how much room is left for melee chars who might benefit from the group buff?  Those melee chars are off in other groups doing other stuff and in several cases maybe being a bit more indispensable to the conduct of the raid.  Not that I am saying that utility is our salvation. I think that is flawed thinking.  The game can only have so many buffs. The main problem is making us either more self sufficient in buffing our own dps or making other buffing classes' buffs (who are normally in a raid setup), apply to us more advantageously.   It should not require so many classes to put single target buffs on us, in order to get us to range of DPS that puts us on par with assassins who are only buffed in a more general way... 

If Illy's could use more conc slots for IA (just as Inquisitors have single target DPS buffs), you would see more than 1 ranger again.  I think more than 1 ranger is not a bad thing, as it fits with taking less tanks.... haha...   I am just throwing this idea out... but it proves my point that small changes could have serious affects on which classes get in raids. 

Rangers, like it or not, are one of the most liked classes in the game (from a purely emotional point of view). people are willing to subscribe to EQ2, and enjoy playing a ranger, but SOE is not allowing raid guilds to be flexible enough to incorporate more than 1. 

One extra ranger on a raid (as an option) would go a long way to keeping some subscribers happy.  Options are a good thing. Again, this could be done by merely looking at the way Raids are set up in the real world, and seeing where certain classes are getting to be underutilized.

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Old 03-19-2009, 03:32 PM   #77
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Walford wrote:

If Illy's could use more conc slots for IA (just as Inquisitors have single target DPS buffs), you would see more than 1 ranger again.  I think more than 1 ranger is not a bad thing, as it fits with taking less tanks.... haha...   I am just throwing this idea out... but it proves my point that small changes could have serious affects on which classes get in raids. 

Dirges with BC make two ranger groups fine.  Our guild uses two rangers for almost every raid.

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Old 03-19-2009, 03:39 PM   #78
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I never see you on anymore Canul. *(

I wrote Aerilik a pm today. It may fall upon deaf ears but I had to try. Maybe we will get some ranger love someday if he gets enough ranger spam in his box.

Where to begin.

I AM EFFIN TIRED OF WATCHING WIZARDS SOLO TRIPLE UP 83 HEROIC NAMED! WHY CANT WE?

All of you have outlined in detail whats wrong with the class. And as I play more and more, I see it more and more.

The raiding ranger is the only ranger in the raid. It wasnt always like this, and SOMEONE (cough hey mechanics guy you reading this) needs to bring us back in line so we are desired more in raids.

I ah, ah crap, I have an assassin alt thats 18, at 18 I was a powerful ranger. But that was lu9ish. My 18 assassin is more powerful then THAT ranger that I was. So its even more "unbalanced" between the two classes now.

We want specific issues?

-GIVE US A CLASS SPECIFIC ARROW THAT IS BETTER THEN PLAYER MADE. WE ARE MASTERS OF RANGED WEAPONS DAMAGE. GIVE US THE TOOLS WE NEED TO GET THE JOB DONE!

-GIVE US A CLASS DEFINING POISON THAT MAKES US MORE ON PAR DPS WISE WITH OUR ASSASSIN COUSINS! HELL GIVE ASSSASSINS A CLASS SPECIFIC POISON TOO!

-FIX REPEATING ARROWS LINE, AUTOATTACK DOES BETTER DAMAGE THEN THIS WASTED CA (WHY DID I UPGRADE IT TO AD3? I WASTED A SILICATE LOAM< ARRGH).

-SWASHIES/BARDS/ETC DO MORE DMG THEN A RANGER IN PARSES! [Removed for Content]! ASSASSIN AND RANGER ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE TOP DAWG SCOUTS FOR DPS. WTFWTFWTF OMGWTFGGBBQSAUCE

-BETTER GEAR! (Why cant we get a special quiver that holds more arrows then say the AVERAGE arrow consuming player?) RANGER QUIVER 4TW! (STATS?)

-CONC SLOTS. GIVE US AN AOE PROC SO WE ARE MORE DESIRABLE AS AOE DPS IN TSO!

-CA's. Bring sniper arrow more in line with decapitate and assassinate! Wait ASSASSINS GET 2! Where is OURS? PLease revamp ca's and bring them more on par with our counterparts (or if I must say it, NERF assassin ca's) to bring balance back to the class.

-Rangers should have the ability to summon a mount better then anything in game. WE ARE WOODSMEN, WE KNOW FOREST CREATURES! WE DONT NEED SADDLES! *)

-ARROWS consumption....not an issue increase it if you like. I had no problem with arrow consumption, ever.

-GEAR. Shard armor is nice, BUT WE DONT WANT TO BE TRON! Please correct the tronified look of our armor in TSO. DISNEY WANTS THEIR COPYRIGHT BACK! Cant tell you how many times Ive heard rangers in t2 shard armor called tron rangers. This disgusts meh.

-RACIAL TRAITS. Dark elves make excellent assassins. Wood elves should make excellent rangers. Bring our racial traits more in balance with those of the dark elf assassin!

-STANCE: Defensive is fine. But offensive is underpowered when compared with other classes. FIX THIS.

-Personal thought-You know how sk/pally gets squires/etc? Other classes get knights/etc? WHAT ABOUT THE RANGER APPRENTICE?

-Appearances-Where is our facial hair? We are rough, tough, hunters. But yet my wood elf looks like a babe. All clean shaven and young looking in his 80th season.

-Adornments- Consider increasing the +dps +rda +rc factors to increase our dps to be on par with our cousins class.

/rant-issues_off

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Old 03-27-2009, 07:07 AM   #79
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I am pretty much in complete agreement with the original post, been raiding with my ranger since Kunark released. I would have to say problems 2(sniper arrow cast time), 3(repeating arrows), 4(CA Range), and 7(coverage) bug me the most. 2. Someone mentioned earlier the cast time on sniper arrow needs to be at most equal to the delay of the mythical bow at max haste. Very good idea in my opinion. 3. Repeating Arrows, useless. Something needs to done to this. Anything. Right now it does nothing for me, any ranger who uses it would be called a fool. 4. CA Range really bugs me. The problem doesn't come up a lot but when it does a lot of rangers just don't even expect to do very good DPS compared to instances where they could be in the right spot. Considering how more and more fights are position sensitive I don't see why this restriction is still here. 7. Coverage. The biggest detriment to my DPS. Why? because there have been so many times when I set up focus aim, used rear shot while moving back, then hit coverage.....only to find out that somewhere is a mob thats too close, thus wasting focus aim time as well as making it so i'm no longer in the 'sweet spot.' Sometimes mezzed, sometimes behind a wall, maybe even above or below for the time I could nt spot any enemies anywhere else at all. Could you at least make it so it only checks for enemies that have aggro on you?

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Old 05-24-2009, 12:33 PM   #80
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Updated the bug for the aoe portion of exploding arrow. This should be ranged damage.. not melee. Along with that it needs to be changed to work with the ranged mastery shadow aa, it only makes sense.. it's a ranged CA.

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Old 05-24-2009, 01:15 PM   #81
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Toball Tokor wrote:

Let's compare on equipment, just as evidence of how we take a hit. Out mythical is Ranged, it is what we use for DPS. It is our primary weapon. It is NOT recognized as a primary weapon for procs in most ( I know of none) on primary or secondary hand weapons. Most if not all adorns placed on the bow will affect and proc off of thier primary judicious gear etc.... For rangers nada. I have Skygazer's tooth, Lifespike, Nox Noctis, Betrayal's Song they give me stats but no procs off of my primary, Eagle's Talon.

I have heard the argument about the difference between 'any successful' and 'a successful', neither works off of our primary. For other's they will dual wield and get the benefits of thier mythical and any of the ones a ranger has. What fabled melee weapon can 'we' use that will proc anything from our primary attack as it does for every other melee for every other class dps or non dps?

Even our predator aa lines are lined up for melee not ranged melee. There are two predator's one ranged and one melee. How many predator aa's have a ranged focus? One of four lines has one ranged specific benefit. AA CA's are all melee not a single ranged. 1 out of 25 for ranged, why not 50/50?

In regards to procs, ranged weapons's procs only proc on ranged attacks/ca, and spell attack for some items. Procs on melee weapons only proc on melee cas or melee auto attack, excluding Maestro's sword since that procs on ca cast.

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Old 05-28-2009, 01:08 PM   #82
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Actually, it's a little erroneous to be comparing Execute with Sniper... Our counterpart is Storm of Arrows.

Pre-LU13, Stream of Arrows was an incredibly powerful CA. As long as you started it while the mob was at the appropriate distance from you, it would keep going for the full 30 seconds, even when the enemy came into melee and point-blank range. It also benefitted from the original proc system, whereby every shot it made had a chance to proc all your available procs (which also had a chance to proc...). So back then, it was really rather good. Then LU13 hit, and suddenly it became a bit on the rubbish side. And once your auto attack damage outstripped the hits from each shot... Well, how many of us seriously use this CA now?

I will admit though, I would love it if Coverage was tweaked. To give your mythical weapon a 5m range requirement to get max damage, then make your level 80 special require a 20m range seems a tad on the annoying side. At the moment, it feels like you have to wait for everything barring complete planetary alignment to occur before this will actually work. Tried using it on the Strange Stalker in YIS, but oh no, the add is being off-tanked about a mile away, so you can't do that. Sorry. Oh, and that AE has broken you out of stealth while you were sat on your backside casting Sniper, so that won't go off either now. Looks like you've wasted a whole lot of time there. And Focus as well. Oopsy. Oh well, there's always next time, eh?

The Hawk gets flattened by the first AE that comes along, and I honestly can't remember the last time I used the Trap. T6, I think it was. One word: Meh.

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Old 08-09-2009, 02:24 PM   #83
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I'm slowly going through my OP and cleaning it up. I apologise for not updating it more often, but I'm going to do better starting now. May your arrow strike true.

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Old 10-08-2009, 05:59 PM   #84
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This is more of a high end ranger problem I am guessing, but I am finding it hard to have ways to improve my DPS in raids. I have 100 rda (or more) and something like 110-120 rcrit and this is with none of my proc buffs going off, then you have other temp buffs from the group. DPS mod hits 200 real fast after in combat buffs as well. This just leaves procs (which got nerfed two different ways for rangers, procs in general and our int line change), range crit bonus and CA base damage which doesn't help ranger DPS nearly as much as other classes. There's Melee crit and crit bonus if your really scraping the bottom of the barrel but I doubt many are doing that. It seems its being addressed in a small way with rcrit bonus, there are some items in MMB and more recently MPS. Unfortunately just upping range crit bonus doesn't seem like its enough to keep up with other DPS classes which can match ranger DPS and still have room to grow. Doesn't seem like something that can realistically be fixed now I just want to make sure the devs have this in mind for the next xpac.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:26 PM   #85
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Items I feel are missing from rangers


Anyone get the feeling they left out some aspects out of rangers that they gave assassins?

Mainly I'm talking about bleeds. Rangers get deadly reminder which for me is my biggest damaging CA over the course of a battle. Assassins get several bleeds.

When I imagine a ranger shooting an arrow into something I think of the arrow sticking into them for awhile and thus causing continuous damage.  Yet we only have one DoT and its a melee one.  As a ranger we should be giving things deadly reminders as arrows because frankly you can see it. WOW what a reminder... and arrow sticking out that keeps hurting! So please make deadly reminder ranged based and add some minor Bleeds to some other ranged CA's.


Give rangers a lightning shot to compliment lightning strike have them share the same reuse timer. Rangers lack a quick refresh CA, shortest is 20 seconds most are over 30. A quick refresh ranged shot would be nice since rangers have moved to primarly ranged damage at end game.


Change cheapshot to work on heroics and epics. If heroic or epic interrupt target that way it has some use while grouped.


*PERTAINS TO CRAFTING BUT PRIMARILY AFFECTS RANGERS*

The devs could improve crafted arrows by actually make different arrow types do something.  Since they removed NPC resistance to specific damage types, they only difference between types is sacrificing a very small amount of damage difference for increased accuracy and range.  This damage increase doesn't seem scale with the bow either. (does it scale with dps? looks like adds flat damage onto ranged attack)

Solution, change arrows to give a % increase to damage and additional effects because arrows should amplify the power of the bow not just add to it.

Field points - currently very popular in game since longest range and add to hit %.  Frankly field points are junk and are only used for practice for ease of removal from targets because there is nothing to get caught when pulling them out and do not penetrate very far.  Since they are used for practice they have similar flight characteristics to real "useful arrows".  Field point arrows should be incredibly quick cheap to produce in game and provide no bonus to damage, range, or hit %.  They should be used by classes that just need cheap arrows for when they randomly decide to pull with an arrow.

Bodkin arrows - designed for deep penetration (possibly even through plate armor) and to be relatively cheap compared to broadheads.  Main in game benefit of bodkin arrows should be largest % damage increase to ranged damage.

Broadhead arrows - designed to continously damage the target by causing constant cutting as the target moves.  Also the most expensive/hardest arrows to make due to amount of metal used, and time/skill to construct the broadheads. Main game benefit of broadheads would be decent % increase to ranged damage and each hit would proc a DoT that stacked and did a % damage per tick of the bows power.  This would give rangers a little extra constant damage between big auto attacks but lower autoattack damage slightly compared to bodkin arrows. (allows rangers to better judge damage and hate gain instead of spiking hate every auto attack and possibly kill severly weakened NPC between auto attacks, also does the most damage all together of all types).

Introduce mastercraft ammunition.  Alchemists have mastercraft potions/poisons.  Mastercraft amunition could provide bonus to hit and higher bonus to damage.  Could receive items to make mastercraft arrows as a side product of making mastercraft wooden items.

Space out arrow crafting accross levels of the tier, field points, bodkin, broadhead since different arrows have more power than previous type.

*Better arrows would benefit rangers the most!*


Assassin vs ranger mythical damage number compareEagle's Talon Mythical (151.1 damage rating) vs Fang of Ichor (120.9) + weapon with 105 damage ratingAbility compareeagle strike and rage of ichor are about balanced.point blank shot and assassin's flurry damage bonuses are about damaged assuming ranger is about 5m away and switching between under 5 and over 5m. (do proc rate buffs affect assasins 15% attack chance?)talon strike and flurry of poison are about balanced.

Stats comparefang of ichor has better sta, int, health, power and more piercing (compared to eagle's talon's ranged)balanced DA vs crit chance total bonuses

damage ratingassassincalculate 33% increase to attack delay (note 33% increase in attack delay does not equal a 33% drop in dps instead calculate 4/3 = 1.33 delay so 3/4 the dps or .75)120.9 *.75 = 90.7, add of the 15% bonus from assassins flurry for 104.3offhand gives 78.8combined new damage rating of 183.1

ranger151.1 * 1.15 (assume 1/2 the time at under 5 meters, and half over 5 meters) for adjusted 173.8151.1 * 1.2 (assume always in the sweet spot) 181.3

damage difference is not to far apart (addition of arrow damage should cause it to equal out at sweet spot)

  So the damage of the two weapon sets is about the same BUT continuation in ranged vs melee ca+da....


Ranged CA and DA vs Melee CA and DAIt is far easier to get items with melee crit and DA than ranged. Also spells tend to apply more melee DA than ranged as do t1-t3 shared armor between ranger and assassin. WoE lacks items with Ranged CA/DA or upgrades with Ranged CA/DA, There should be items that have a upgrade choice to work with revitalized set and trueshot sets (offensive influence and glyph of restoration sets)

Some people claim its because offhand weapons cant double attack, but they can so i see no point on why to [Removed for Content] ranged DA compared to melee

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Old 10-31-2009, 02:51 PM   #86
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I just came back to EQ2 after like a 3yr hiatus, and am curious as to why they made AGI pretty much a pointless stat on rangers. I shouldnt be worrying more about my INT because i get higher poison procs of my AGI. Dunno, we need to go back to pre LU13 rainja's. 

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Old 11-01-2009, 10:03 AM   #87
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chogan wrote:

Items I feel are missing from rangers


Anyone get the feeling they left out some aspects out of rangers that they gave assassins?

Mainly I'm talking about bleeds. Rangers get deadly reminder which for me is my biggest damaging CA over the course of a battle. Assassins get several bleeds.

When I imagine a ranger shooting an arrow into something I think of the arrow sticking into them for awhile and thus causing continuous damage.  Yet we only have one DoT and its a melee one.  As a ranger we should be giving things deadly reminders as arrows because frankly you can see it. WOW what a reminder... and arrow sticking out that keeps hurting! So please make deadly reminder ranged based and add some minor Bleeds to some other ranged CA's.

I know, it is not for everyone, but the T4 set legs have a focus for offstance adding some dot to it.


Give rangers a lightning shot to compliment lightning strike have them share the same reuse timer. Rangers lack a quick refresh CA, shortest is 20 seconds most are over 30. A quick refresh ranged shot would be nice since rangers have moved to primarly ranged damage at end game.

Did you miss snaring shot, which is on 5 seconds recast?


Change cheapshot to work on heroics and epics. If heroic or epic interrupt target that way it has some use while grouped.

Read the description again, it works on heroics, its just half the time.


*PERTAINS TO CRAFTING BUT PRIMARILY AFFECTS RANGERS*

The devs could improve crafted arrows by actually make different arrow types do something.  Since they removed NPC resistance to specific damage types, they only difference between types is sacrificing a very small amount of damage difference for increased accuracy and range.  This damage increase doesn't seem scale with the bow either. (does it scale with dps? looks like adds flat damage onto ranged attack)

Solution, change arrows to give a % increase to damage and additional effects because arrows should amplify the power of the bow not just add to it.

Field points - currently very popular in game since longest range and add to hit %.  Frankly field points are junk and are only used for practice for ease of removal from targets because there is nothing to get caught when pulling them out and do not penetrate very far.  Since they are used for practice they have similar flight characteristics to real "useful arrows".  Field point arrows should be incredibly quick cheap to produce in game and provide no bonus to damage, range, or hit %.  They should be used by classes that just need cheap arrows for when they randomly decide to pull with an arrow.

Bodkin arrows - designed for deep penetration (possibly even through plate armor) and to be relatively cheap compared to broadheads.  Main in game benefit of bodkin arrows should be largest % damage increase to ranged damage.

Broadhead arrows - designed to continously damage the target by causing constant cutting as the target moves.  Also the most expensive/hardest arrows to make due to amount of metal used, and time/skill to construct the broadheads. Main game benefit of broadheads would be decent % increase to ranged damage and each hit would proc a DoT that stacked and did a % damage per tick of the bows power.  This would give rangers a little extra constant damage between big auto attacks but lower autoattack damage slightly compared to bodkin arrows. (allows rangers to better judge damage and hate gain instead of spiking hate every auto attack and possibly kill severly weakened NPC between auto attacks, also does the most damage all together of all types).

Introduce mastercraft ammunition.  Alchemists have mastercraft potions/poisons.  Mastercraft amunition could provide bonus to hit and higher bonus to damage.  Could receive items to make mastercraft arrows as a side product of making mastercraft wooden items.

Space out arrow crafting accross levels of the tier, field points, bodkin, broadhead since different arrows have more power than previous type.

*Better arrows would benefit rangers the most!*

I mostly agree with you here, because in the latest past melee autoattack not only came close to ranged autoattack, it even got better. But I don't know how long you are playing EQ2 - there has been mastercrafted ammunition in the past, they just removed in some day.


Assassin vs ranger mythical damage number compareEagle's Talon Mythical (151.1 damage rating) vs Fang of Ichor (120.9) + weapon with 105 damage ratingAbility compareeagle strike and rage of ichor are about balanced.point blank shot and assassin's flurry damage bonuses are about damaged assuming ranger is about 5m away and switching between under 5 and over 5m. (do proc rate buffs affect assasins 15% attack chance?)talon strike and flurry of poison are about balanced.

Stats comparefang of ichor has better sta, int, health, power and more piercing (compared to eagle's talon's ranged)balanced DA vs crit chance total bonuses

damage ratingassassincalculate 33% increase to attack delay (note 33% increase in attack delay does not equal a 33% drop in dps instead calculate 4/3 = 1.33 delay so 3/4 the dps or .75)120.9 *.75 = 90.7, add of the 15% bonus from assassins flurry for 104.3offhand gives 78.8combined new damage rating of 183.1

ranger151.1 * 1.15 (assume 1/2 the time at under 5 meters, and half over 5 meters) for adjusted 173.8151.1 * 1.2 (assume always in the sweet spot) 181.3

damage difference is not to far apart (addition of arrow damage should cause it to equal out at sweet spot)

  So the damage of the two weapon sets is about the same BUT continuation in ranged vs melee ca+da....

What I said - ranged autoattack is still the most powerful if you just look at a single hit, but overtime nearly every other scout can outparse a ranger by autoattack considering they have one of the most powerful weapon for offhand.


Ranged CA and DA vs Melee CA and DAIt is far easier to get items with melee crit and DA than ranged. Also spells tend to apply more melee DA than ranged as do t1-t3 shared armor between ranger and assassin. WoE lacks items with Ranged CA/DA or upgrades with Ranged CA/DA, There should be items that have a upgrade choice to work with revitalized set and trueshot sets (offensive influence and glyph of restoration sets)

Some people claim its because offhand weapons cant double attack, but they can so i see no point on why to [Removed for Content] ranged DA compared to melee

Merging different crit types into one is coming anyway, so this problem will be solved soon - BUT I am very incredulous rangers will be treated like all other classes, since there has been some statement while ago, that crit values scale different for classes.

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Old 11-15-2009, 01:26 PM   #88
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Rangers have absolutely no group utility. We have:

1. No interrupts - Seriously, can't you at least just throw an interrupt onto cheap shot? If they're stunned, they're already interrupted - if they're not, hey! They're interrupted.

2. No group buffs - (Nature's Focus is a total joke. Few care about 15 second temp buffs that hardly do a [Removed for Content] thing until you're raiding Munzok's - the only way this buff would ever be relevant is if it were raidwide and the duration were practically doubled, and even then it would be pretty weak - it's also rather appalling that we don't get several of the effects of our own frigging buff.)

3. No persistent hate transfer - (Sorry, Trick Shot's 10 second duration (and therefore 33% uptime) still doesn't count. If a buff isn't persistent, it may as well not even be there as far as groups are concerned.)

4. No persistent +hate% buff

5. No significant AOE DPS - With an emphasis on AOE content of late, this has been a persistent source of agony. The 'waves of small mobs' that appear in Befallen, Guk 3, Ward of Elements, find us to be lacking.

6. No significant 'visible' trash DPS due to long cooldowns and cast times. - No real explanation required, here. We have extremely limited 'burst' potential after our initial volley.

7. Coverage - Has nothing to do with my topic, but is still horrible and warrant being mentioned during any ranger post.

 

If a Ranger isn't doing far and away better DPS than any other class, there's currently ZERO reason to bring them on a group other than "We couldn't find anything else", and that's a depressing place to be in. I love my Ranger, but from a practical standpoint, I understand why we're one of the first classes to be benched when push comes to shove.

Does the dev team even still read these threads, or are we still shouting into empty space?

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Old 11-15-2009, 05:55 PM   #89
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Unfortunately, I'd have to say empty space. The Ranger issue has been commented on for ages, yet they haven't really done anything to change it.

And to add on to our buff being [Removed for Content] vs. the rest: I know of at least 5 buffs which do not affect the Ranger class (or offer limited buffs vs. the other melee classes), yet they are supposed to help "melee" classes. Are we not melee? It would seem not since we cannot cast our ca's on the move like all the other melee classes can.

I also do not know of any other class that has as many "useless" ca's as the ranger class.

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Old 11-19-2009, 02:18 AM   #90
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for having pretty much 0 utility value, i dont see why they dont at leave give us the highest DPS. Its just wierd that someone with higher DPS also has higher Utility value.

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