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Old 03-04-2012, 04:40 AM   #61
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I will grant you that crafting is boring - 3 combines and I'm down for the count.  If your random button mashing you ahve not even bothered to figure out the basics of the crafting system.  The buttons all serve a purpose and if you mash them mindfully you will find it goes much better (but stillq uite boring).  Random smashing buttons and you deal with RNG fail - mash buttons in the right order and ZERO rng fail occurs.

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Old 03-04-2012, 04:25 PM   #62
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Some of adventuring is boring too.  Grinding faction on repeatable quests for example.  Some of crafting is boring, some of it isn't. I find the quests interesting and the house items that you can get once you get your faction up interesting.

I despise grinding rush orders to level crafting.   I only do it during double exp events.  

I miss the pristine bonus.   Since it was taken out, I don't even make all the recipes in my recipe books now.   Just the ones that are on rush writs.  

However, I have dabbled at crafting in many games.  I've not found any that the actual crafting process wasn't boring or annoying.  Sometimes interesting means complicated.   I don't want to go through a gazzillion hoops to be able to make one thing.

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:27 PM   #63
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It's all a matter of personal opinion, preference, and play style.  To use broad generalizations and assumptions by saying that crafting is "too boring for the majority of people" without any back up proof from the population as a whole, is ridiculous.  The vocal minority of players who post on these forums in no way represents that "majority" of players in the game.  Even with the players who post, opinions are split.

My opinion differs from the OP in that I do not find leveling crafting to be exceedingly boring.  I enjoy all of the tradeskill quests, which greatly add to the leveling experience.  That's my personal opinon, preference, and play style.  It's no more "right" or "wrong" or "special snowflake" than anyone elses.

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Old 03-04-2012, 06:20 PM   #64
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Rijacki wrote:

I did not stoop to insulting you, please leave insults out of it. I actually didn't say whether I like it or not, that is your assumption. You also insult and characterise people who don't 100% agree with you in derogatory terms. That isn't needed for a discussion. Your opinion is valid for you. The opinions of others are valid for them.

The crafting process IS like adventuring combat. Both push buttons. Period. It doesn't matter that there are more or less buttons for one to push (and there are many discussions and disputes over whether or not each class has more than a handful, 6 or so, -useful- buttons to push or whether or not it's better to put them all into a single button as a macro to push over and over). It doesn't matter that there are more zones to push buttons in for one than the other or even that there are more quests for one than the other (up until Domino was the tradeskill dev there were -no- quests for crafting other than the writs which were even missing for a long span of time, at least a year). Crafting can be done in groups even in a raid sized group, even if each individual member is not working on the exact same thing at the exact same time. Mobs don't spawn, but the events to counter do occur. Mobs don't respawn in many locations either or don't spawn out of the one thing your killing. Each mob you take on in combat is like a single recipe. The PROCESS, the mechanics of crafting and combat are remarkably similar.

Should crafting have more quests? Right now, at certain times of the year, it's possible to get to the mid-30s or even higher without crafting more than a small handful of recipes that are in scribed books for your class. There are those who like questing (either for crafting or adventuring) and those who do not.

Should there be group content for crafting? Each attempt to add some of that dynamic is met with loud cries of derision and insistance that crafting only be solo-able. Have you done one of the crafting instances? In beta they were going to be only completeable by a group (i.e. shorter time they had to be completed in which would have required crafters working together) with only the Mara daily for solo. But that was loudly and voriciously complained about, so the completion time was left more open ended allowing soloist to do it but with a reduced potential to get the best rewards (which has also raised complaints, of course).

Should there be crafting required in adventure zones for certain adventure content to be completed? That, too, was tried back near launch and was met with loud complaints from several sides.

You can take a portable station 2.0 into virtually any zone in the game. Thus it IS possible to crafting in nearly unlimited locatons. Yes, you would also have to take resources with you, but how is that not like needing to take along armor, weapons, possibly potions, etc as an adventurer? Yes, you would have to plan for the amount of crafting you want to do. How is that different than an adventurer preparing to go into a zone? As for zones specificially and only designed for crafting, yes there are fewer of those. Should there be more? They added a new one with Frostfell, they added the crafting instances with TSO, perhaps they will add more. Will they ever equal the number of zones available for adventuring? unlikely, but the crafting game is not where the majority of the players spend their time even if they do like crafting.

I am glad there have been improvements to the crafting process and to the crafting experience overall since it was gutted near the release of KoS (LU 20-something). I hope they continue to add Options for players to do in crafting.

I, personally, preferred the crafting process at launch (with the exception of providing the perfect greed/gouge situation) and also, personally, preferred the pre-NGE crafting system of SWG. I know many who didn't like the EQ2 crafting process at launch or even after the cross-crafting books were introduced (taking out the single class dependancy and allowing everyone to make all their own subcomponents). I know many who like the crafting process now. I know many who like a crafting process they can largely ignore (or even, sadly, automate). I know many who like a crafting process with absolutely zero player interaction other than handing stuff to an NPC and getting a finished product later. I know many who like the EQ1 click-click-hope-item or WoW's click-click-item. I know many who prefer Vanguard's system (where if you didn't happen to have the right counter agents to random events in your crafting interface before you start crafting no knowing what potential event would occur, you fail completely). And so on.

The system you find "too boring for the majority of people to engage in" might be the system someone else does like for whatever reason and that doesn't make them a "special snowflake" any more than it makes you a "special snowflake" for disliking it. It doesn't even make them any more childish to say "here are some things you might not now" to try to show you what they like, than for you to demand it needs to be changed now now now now just to suit what you think is the only possible way it should be.

Both push buttons. Wow.

I craft. I enjoy it (rarely). To me, the major difference is that you can fail at adventuring. Sure, there are a few quests that have crafting requirements that don't allow for error...but they are few and far between. I loved when forges topped (or were treasure chests #1?) the list for cause of player death, and you had to pay attention to what you were doing. Death should be a real possibility on every combine as far as I'm concerned. (Yes, the adventure side is becoming more mind-numbingly boring and /afk-able daily. That sucks too.)

In the past, adventurers may have had to keep extra gear in their bags to swap for resists or whatever depending on the fight...but that's pretty much gone with the ruined itemization DoV finished off. My armor is on. My weapons are on. That said, I really have no interest in crafting in 'the wild' anyway. Happy to do that in the guild hall.

I'm not going to try to change the crafting process. I'll use it for what I need it for...and while the adventuring side of the game just keeps getting easier, saying crafting is the same because both push buttons is hilarious.

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Old 03-04-2012, 11:21 PM   #65
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Rijacki wrote:

Tatwi wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

 To push it on others and "demand" that the developers change the game to suit YOUR likes when there are thousands of other people playing the same game is inconsiderate to those that like that part of the game.

Tatwi wrote:

Please, SOE, can you add some kind of alternative crafting system that has the resource, componets, crafting process, and customization that, say, SWG's Weaponsmith had? You know, with harvesters and stat quality and variety and... maybe just a little more need for something other than a clicking finger and a set of eyes... please?

Please?

Oh, I see. The cool thing to do around here is to make things up and insult people. Have fun with that.

/quit

You're still missing a Major point (maybe colourising and bolding will get your attention).

Crafting in EQ2 was more involved with resources, components, and even a slightly more complex process (you actually could use more of the buffs other than just the 6 highest level that are replaced for you as you level up so you never even notice they change). The primary component of any but the most basic subcomponent (Wash, Oil, Resin, Temper) could influence the final outcome. You couldn't make an item better than the quality of it's primary component.

The whole process was absolutely gutted around the release of KoS and got almost no attention at all until RoK when Domino started. The system that it was, which involved more complexity, was gutted because a large portion of the player base complained about it being too hard, too long, too whatever. It was gutted into a super basic process because that was easier for the tradeskill dev at the time (and he even botched it horribly then) and they weren't going to allocate more resources to it.

Domino added more variety to the experience with quests, tradeskill instances, special class rewards, a heritage quest, filling in recipes for nearly every class (in the "progression" concept that had been botched by the previous dev), got more (and better) house items added in, etc. Yes, she also did streamline the process a bit more because there were -still- complaints about how hard it was. Heck, there are still complaints today if someone has a couple bad RNG moments while doing a click to start and completely walk away from the keyboard to let it self complete without pushing -any- buttons. She also did it to make more sense with the reactives/buffs actually increasing in capability while leveling (previously, a level 20 buff could be considerably better than a level 40 one, and I think I remember them stopping at level 40 leaving you with using grey 'spells' at level 60+). A lot of players (myself included) disagreed with removing 1st pristine as the solution to the constant bickering over thus and so class having easier leveling vs other classes (even if that had already been smoothed out with writs being better for some classes). Even the massive bonus XP writs and quests give was in response to players complaining about the slowness of leveling. Now crafting levels up at lightning speeds, even in comparison to the fast leveling that is now the adventure game below 80. 

But, back to the real point, do you really think they're going to allocate much in the way of resources now to crafting? About a year ago, there was an open position for a tradeskill developer. Many of those who had applied for the job got back a letter saying SOE decided not to fill the position with a specific tradeskill dev. Unless -that- changes, there won't be a specific tradeskill dev. Without a specific dev, there is a snowball's chance in Hades of having the system completely and utterly changed. Heck, even when we had Domino as the tradeskill dev she stated very clearly in many of these types of threads that a complete and utter change to the system was not going to happen.

Does the tradeskill system in EQ2, as it is now, appeal to everyone? NO. No one has ever claimed it does or it should or that anyone is wrong for not thinking it is a good system or is wrong for thinking it is boring to them. BUT, there are still people who do like the system, even as it is, and their opinion is just as important as yours. No amount of you demanding that your opinion is the only opinion which is valid will make it so. No amount of Feldon chiming in to agree that he also doesn't like the system will mean that every single player that likes it is wrong. No amount of me saying I preferred the original EQ2 crafting system (or the SWG system or the Free Realms system or the Puzzle Pirates system) will mean I unreservedly like the current EQ2 system and think it 'should' be the only system no matter if Feldon declared that or you declare it or any other "special snowflake" declares it. BUT, I do and will stand up for those you are insulting by characterising them as having the wrong opinion just because it doesn't match yours. It is inconsiderate of you to insist they're wrong to like it just because you don't.

Most of the points being brought up refer to everything outside of the process of crafting. The actual making of items which is what the OP is talking about. Quests, portable stations, writs, group crafting missions, even what is being made is all outside of the scope that the OP is making comments about.

When you get rite down to it, the actual making of an item is booring, repedative, and basically 1) was there an event? (y/n) If y then counter + 2 other reactions. If n then 3 reactions of your choice (based on durability), repeat until complete. There are no actual decision points in the crafting process except if you want to push durability or progress. You can eliminate this decision by just focusing on durability. Indeed, you can skip paying attention all together by just building durability constantly. Failing to counter events won't ruin the item or kill you unless your doing a special quest combine or a series of flukes come up.

More or less, the actual process of creating the items hasn't changed since it was first introduced. Yes, Domino did streamline the counters and make them into a more intuitive progress model that can accomidate gaining levels easier than the origonal system. Other than that, the processs has remained the same.

I complained bitterly then, back in beta. I've complained about this a lot over the years. I am still of the opinion that it can change. Now if you want to say the same simplicity applies to adventuring I have to disagree. Circumstances change for adventurers. You have positioning to think of, the possability of adds, group composition, gear, possible special abilities from the target. There are many factors outside of pushing buttons that make adventuring more complicated than crafting. Unfortunately crafting can't benifit from most of these due to the UI limitations. Honestly, the mini-game and UI are horrible.

While I love crafting, I hate the process. Always have.

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Old 03-05-2012, 01:21 AM   #66
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Meirril wrote:

Most of the points being brought up refer to everything outside of the process of crafting. The actual making of items which is what the OP is talking about. Quests, portable stations, writs, group crafting missions, even what is being made is all outside of the scope that the OP is making comments about.

I have to disagree with you here. Given that the title of the post is that the process of leveling is boring, quests and such are pertinent, as they are a way to level up crafting.

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Old 03-05-2012, 02:42 AM   #67
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EQ2 is a button pushing game.  I don't see how they could change crafting without coming up with a totally different system.  The only thing that I can think of is a mini-game ala Ninetindo DS cooking games.  I doubt folks would like that either, because it would be more complicated than it currently is.

Personally, I'd prefer they didn't mess with crafting too much.  The EQ devs seems to have this all or nothing mindset.  Things are either so hard that casuals can't do them, or so easy that it's mind-numbingly boring.  I do not want crafting to be any easier than it already is.  I do not want a one button crafting system like EQ1 has.  I want to interact with the crafting process.

The only thing I really dislike about crafting is the tinkering and transmuting random skill ups.  I like knowing that I'm getting experience for each combine. 

As far as adventuring being a button pushing game also.  It's actually now a single button - Merc Attack.  LOL  All I do when leveling is point and shoot my merc, wait for the mob to die (normally in 2 hits,) check for loot and repeat.  I'm not talking about 90 dungeons but the leveling process since that is what the OP talks about in regards to crafting. 

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Old 03-05-2012, 05:30 AM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

EQ2 is a button pushing game.  I don't see how they could change crafting without coming up with a totally different system.  The only thing that I can think of is a mini-game ala Ninetindo DS cooking games.  I doubt folks would like that either, because it would be more complicated than it currently is.

As the current system is 1-2-3-1-2-3 (or 4-5-6-4-5-6 if you prefer), then yes, any improvement would be more complex. A steak is more complicated to eat than a ham sandwich, but the taste sure is better. A car is more complicated to operate than roller skates, but the ride sure is better.

Please give us SOME kind of puzzle or something. Either a list of ingredients that we have to drag into position,or a little pipe flow diagram we have to complete. Or instead of the exact rigid 4 second cycle, give us different events to react to and let us react to them in any order. What ticks me off is, I am on the 4 second crafting cycle, I don't see a problem, so I hit my buttons, and then I guess due to a lag spike, THEN there's something to react to and of course I "failed" to react to it. I didn't fail to react to it. I just didn't see something to react to!

And heck make it an optional crafting UI. Leave it so people can stick with 1-2-3-1-2-3 if they want.

It's 2012. There's no reason why the MMO with the most advanced housing system on the market should have such a tedious crafting process.

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As far as adventuring being a button pushing game also.  It's actually now a single button - Merc Attack.  LOL  All I do when leveling is point and shoot my merc, wait for the mob to die (normally in 2 hits,) check for loot and repeat.  I'm not talking about 90 dungeons but the leveling process since that is what the OP talks about in regards to crafting. 

I guess SOE shouldn't be surprised but it's sad that the game has been reduced to this for some people. If that's all the game was for me, I'd look for a more engaging game.

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Old 03-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #69
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feldon30 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

EQ2 is a button pushing game.  I don't see how they could change crafting without coming up with a totally different system.  The only thing that I can think of is a mini-game ala Ninetindo DS cooking games.  I doubt folks would like that either, because it would be more complicated than it currently is.

As the current system is 1-2-3-1-2-3 (or 4-5-6-4-5-6 if you prefer), then yes, any improvement would be more complex. A steak is more complicated to eat than a ham sandwich, but the taste sure is better. A car is more complicated to operate than roller skates, but the ride sure is better.

Please give us SOME kind of puzzle or something. Either a list of ingredients that we have to drag into position,or a little pipe flow diagram we have to complete. Or instead of the exact rigid 4 second cycle, give us different events to react to and let us react to them in any order. What ticks me off is, I am on the 4 second crafting cycle, I don't see a problem, so I hit my buttons, and then I guess due to a lag spike, THEN there's something to react to and of course I "failed" to react to it. I didn't fail to react to it. I just didn't see something to react to!

And heck make it an optional crafting UI. Leave it so people can stick with 1-2-3-1-2-3 if they want.

It's 2012. There's no reason why the MMO with the most advanced housing system on the market should have such a tedious crafting process.

[email protected] wrote:

As far as adventuring being a button pushing game also.  It's actually now a single button - Merc Attack.  LOL  All I do when leveling is point and shoot my merc, wait for the mob to die (normally in 2 hits,) check for loot and repeat.  I'm not talking about 90 dungeons but the leveling process since that is what the OP talks about in regards to crafting. 

I guess SOE shouldn't be surprised but it's sad that the game has been reduced to this for some people. If that's all the game was for me, I'd look for a more engaging game.

I think we can agree that leveling crafting isn't completely boring.  The wide variety of quests has enhanced that part of it. I, in fact, level as much as I can from quests and very much enjoy the crafting quests.

However, the process of crafting an item is very tedious.  If you are only making a few items, say a set of armor, it is fine.   If you are doing writs to level or crafting bulk items such as food, arrows, totems, throwing weapons, etc.- then it is tedious and can be even painful (anyone else have button pushing pains in their hand after a long crafting session?  I can get the same from a long harvesting session though.)

I don't, however, like the ideas of making it more complicated.   UNLESS, the bulk items are changed to be a massive number made per combine. 

Those worried about the economy would not like that as more quantity per combine equals more people actually crafting the items and then prices go down.  But can you imagine crafting arrows becoming interesting?   Wow, how interesting would it be to take so much longer to make arrows?   

I'm not saying that I wouldn't like it to be less tedious.   I am saying that we need to come up with ideas that are viable for all items that are crafted.

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Old 03-05-2012, 10:46 AM   #70
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[email protected] wrote:

As far as adventuring being a button pushing game also.  It's actually now a single button - Merc Attack.  LOL  All I do when leveling is point and shoot my merc, wait for the mob to die (normally in 2 hits,) check for loot and repeat.  I'm not talking about 90 dungeons but the leveling process since that is what the OP talks about in regards to crafting. 

I guess SOE shouldn't be surprised but it's sad that the game has been reduced to this for some people. If that's all the game was for me, I'd look for a more engaging game.

I guess I could find a way to make kill 5 mob a, kill 3 mob b, kill 7 mob c, etc more engaging but the merc is simply faster.  When I do dungeons sometimes I gotta heal him, does that count as engaging?  SMILEY  Problem is that I run out of vitality so fast in dungeons that I can only do'em about once per week. 

Oddly enough I don't find merc attack killing all that boring.  It's actually kind of funny to watch him mow down dozens of yellow critters in 10 minutes.  I don't wanna quit.  I'm havin fun.

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Old 03-05-2012, 01:05 PM   #71
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If the 'reward' for pushing the buttons in the 'right' sequences was "better" than it is now, it wouldn't be as pointless to some and, I am btter the 'pointlessness' of it is a big portion of why they find it boring. It's not the process that is any more or any less boring button pushing than adventuring, it's that there isn't any value in that button pushing.

Crafted goods in Norrath, with a few exceptions, have become nothing more than a joke.

At launch there was a reason to want rares to get gear so you could go do harder content. Heck, at launch, even handcrafted gear was used to help you get the drops to replace it. Crafted goods, mostly, had a place in the game and a use for the characters in it.

Then the first expansion came and there was an outrage over "digging in the dirt" giving better armor than the hardest content in the original content (and, in my opinion, no "mastercrafted" shouldn't have given better gear than the hardest raids of the previous levels). The backlash on it resulted in an overcompensation the to the other extreme. Crafted goods took massive nerfs. After the crafting re-do near the launch of KoS, even the most common treasured drop was better than most mastercrafted (and was when the designations of Mastercrafted and Handcrafted were added and was also when all qualities other than pristine were stripped from the system). Handcrafted, other than house items, was permanently relegated to NPC merchant fodder. (Writs were also removed and didn't return until EoF.)

Now, each time there is a significant change in the way stats work or the quality of the current drops, there is a long lull before any crafted items 'catch up' and are adjusted to fit the new scheme, at least partially (MC still has issues from the last re-itemisation).

The apprentice researched recipes might have made that worse, not better. Adventurers don't have a massive time sink before they can enter each instance/dungeon the first time, but crafters do. It's an attempt, yes, to stretch out the extremely limited content given to crafters, but that doesn't make it any less than a time sink. Recipes aren't Master abilities, but that's what the researching via apprentice mimics.

As for crafting/comat being similar in their button pushing:

Strip away the scripts and other things which add variety to the visuals of combat and it -is- just pushing buttons in the right sequence, you might change the sequence from time to time in response to events (same with crafting) but it's still pushing the same, or nearly the same, buttons over and over, whether 3, 6, or a dozen. Those who are better at it know a better sequence to push. But, yes, it's not the button pushing which makes combat interesting or not, it's the other things. The scripts which require doing things in some sort of response, moving, pushing specific buttons, stop pushing buttons, etc.

Yes, crafting is missing the scripts and other such. Domino's attempts to put them in (with the crafting instances and then with the shawl final combine) were met howls of protest. But new things to the crafting experience were added in.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't the same depth of variety in the crafting experience (encompassing all you can do crafting, from leveling, to making recipes) that there is in the adventuring experience. But the specific process for both is pushing buttons at it's absolute most basic level. Focusing just on the pushing buttons in the one (Crafting) misses out on why the other is seen as 'better' by most. Ignoring all the other available aspects of the crafting experience doesn't give credit, either, to how it has been improved.

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Old 03-05-2012, 04:18 PM   #72
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If you think crafting is bad now, think of what it'll be like without Domino being its guardian angel.

Well Domino did a lot of bad things for crafting too!! She took away the first time bonus which hurts a lot and forced dependency on writs -- which suck at lower levels. Writs for some classes force you to spend too much time crafint green recipes where you could avoid that with the first time bonus.

We need to bring back the first time bonus - it really hurt losing that.

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Old 03-05-2012, 04:49 PM   #73
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Maroger wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If you think crafting is bad now, think of what it'll be like without Domino being its guardian angel.

Well Domino did a lot of bad things for crafting too!! She took away the first time bonus which hurts a lot and forced dependency on writs -- which suck at lower levels. Writs for some classes force you to spend too much time crafint green recipes where you could avoid that with the first time bonus.

We need to bring back the first time bonus - it really hurt losing that.

Except for sages, it's faster, now, to level with rush orders then it was doing all recipes 'for the first time'. Add in the tradeskill questlines, and leveling a crafter is signigicantly faster then it was when the 'first time bonus' was in effect. I was a huge skeptic about the change before it went live, but I'm a firm supporter of it now, after seeing it in action.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #74
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Mermut wrote:

Maroger wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If you think crafting is bad now, think of what it'll be like without Domino being its guardian angel.

Well Domino did a lot of bad things for crafting too!! She took away the first time bonus which hurts a lot and forced dependency on writs -- which suck at lower levels. Writs for some classes force you to spend too much time crafint green recipes where you could avoid that with the first time bonus.

We need to bring back the first time bonus - it really hurt losing that.

Except for sages, it's faster, now, to level with rush orders then it was doing all recipes 'for the first time'. Add in the tradeskill questlines, and leveling a crafter is signigicantly faster then it was when the 'first time bonus' was in effect. I was a huge skeptic about the change before it went live, but I'm a firm supporter of it now, after seeing it in action.

It's definitely a drag raising any scholar on writs, but everyone else benefited greatly from the change. The biggest boost was to provis, who don't even have advanced recipes. Now, it's only 4 or 5 writs for a level (assuming you at least have some vitality), so that's 24 to 30 items. I don't know how anyone can call that a bad thing.

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Old 03-05-2012, 10:59 PM   #75
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I actually love the change that removed the first time bonus.

I leveled a sage, carpenter, weaponsmith and achelmist from 50 to 90 in a few weeks doing nothing but rush orders.  All characters had full vitality that would last about ten levels.  It was so much easier and faster now than when I leveled my provie from 0 to 80 before they removed the first time/pristine bonus.  That period was boring and painful.  Although, the carpenter and sage did level up pretty quickly then due to the variety of recipes.

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Old 03-05-2012, 11:17 PM   #76
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Rijacki wrote:

If the 'reward' for pushing the buttons in the 'right' sequences was "better" than it is now, it wouldn't be as pointless to some and, I am btter the 'pointlessness' of it is a big portion of why they find it boring. It's not the process that is any more or any less boring button pushing than adventuring, it's that there isn't any value in that button pushing.

Crafted goods in Norrath, with a few exceptions, have become nothing more than a joke.

At launch there was a reason to want rares to get gear so you could go do harder content. Heck, at launch, even handcrafted gear was used to help you get the drops to replace it. Crafted goods, mostly, had a place in the game and a use for the characters in it.

Then the first expansion came and there was an outrage over "digging in the dirt" giving better armor than the hardest content in the original content (and, in my opinion, no "mastercrafted" shouldn't have given better gear than the hardest raids of the previous levels). The backlash on it resulted in an overcompensation the to the other extreme. Crafted goods took massive nerfs. After the crafting re-do near the launch of KoS, even the most common treasured drop was better than most mastercrafted (and was when the designations of Mastercrafted and Handcrafted were added and was also when all qualities other than pristine were stripped from the system). Handcrafted, other than house items, was permanently relegated to NPC merchant fodder. (Writs were also removed and didn't return until EoF.)

Now, each time there is a significant change in the way stats work or the quality of the current drops, there is a long lull before any crafted items 'catch up' and are adjusted to fit the new scheme, at least partially (MC still has issues from the last re-itemisation).

The apprentice researched recipes might have made that worse, not better. Adventurers don't have a massive time sink before they can enter each instance/dungeon the first time, but crafters do. It's an attempt, yes, to stretch out the extremely limited content given to crafters, but that doesn't make it any less than a time sink. Recipes aren't Master abilities, but that's what the researching via apprentice mimics.

As for crafting/comat being similar in their button pushing:

Strip away the scripts and other things which add variety to the visuals of combat and it -is- just pushing buttons in the right sequence, you might change the sequence from time to time in response to events (same with crafting) but it's still pushing the same, or nearly the same, buttons over and over, whether 3, 6, or a dozen. Those who are better at it know a better sequence to push. But, yes, it's not the button pushing which makes combat interesting or not, it's the other things. The scripts which require doing things in some sort of response, moving, pushing specific buttons, stop pushing buttons, etc.

Yes, crafting is missing the scripts and other such. Domino's attempts to put them in (with the crafting instances and then with the shawl final combine) were met howls of protest. But new things to the crafting experience were added in.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't the same depth of variety in the crafting experience (encompassing all you can do crafting, from leveling, to making recipes) that there is in the adventuring experience. But the specific process for both is pushing buttons at it's absolute most basic level. Focusing just on the pushing buttons in the one (Crafting) misses out on why the other is seen as 'better' by most. Ignoring all the other available aspects of the crafting experience doesn't give credit, either, to how it has been improved.

There are recipes that are in high demand. Making those recipes doesn't seem any less painful than making any other recipe, it is just you have more incentive to do some work and make those items. You certainly arn't playing, your working. Your crafting items only because you want the end result.

Sometimes as an adventurer, you just enter an area below your level and waste everything in site. Why? Just to cut loose and have some fun. Enjoy the sheer mindless destruction and watch things explode. Everybody does it at least once after they reach max level. Some people make it into a nightly habit.

When is the last time you started crafting "just for fun"? Decided to run an instance or do a writ "because your bored"? Maybe you started crafting because "I can't sleep". I certainly understand if you use its inate properties as a way to lull yourself to unconciousness.

There is a free to play game out there called Puzzle Pirates. They have a crafting system. Take a day and go try it. If the process of crafting was actually fun, who cares if it takes longer to make items? The items are just a side effect of playing a fun game, there will be people that create stuff just because they want to play the game. Kinda like adventuring there are people who don't care about gear as much as they care about doing something for fun. Wouldn't that be nice?

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Old 03-06-2012, 03:55 AM   #77
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yes, it is boring.    others here will say its relaxing.  they arent going to change it, thats how it is.  you dont craft for excitement.  it used to be that having level 90 crafters was great so you could make your army of alts gear as you leveled.  now, not so much.  (some ppl leveled crafters to make a boat load of plat from crafting but i never did, even when i tried to make a lot of plat.)  the advantage to having a 90 crafter now is the flying mount for low level character.  that's awesome!!  for a guild, leveling the crafter with writs will help level the guild.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:02 AM   #78
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LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time SMILEY

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:05 AM   #79
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Rijacki wrote:

Yes, crafting is missing the scripts and other such. Domino's attempts to put them in (with the crafting instances and then with the shawl final combine) were met howls of protest.

thats bc she gated us with that 40K faction, which *MUST* be a daily grind.  doing that once was enough for me.  i may do it a 2nd time on my son's acct but that's it for me.  if it had been follow this questline, plus a day or two of a "daily" and you have enough faction to complete the shawl quest, all 14 of my crafters would have finished it.  as it sits now, only one has and i expect it to stay that way.

i realize that there's some who say "oh but its how you EARN it so i like it that way".  i can appreciate and agree with that for the first time but on your alts, NO WAY.  token of loyalty, dragon tablet, anyone?

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:07 AM   #80
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Calthine wrote:

LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time

well IDK thats what ppl would type on the crafting forums last year (or was it the year before).  i even asked them to share how and would get replies about it being a secret. 

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Old 03-06-2012, 03:13 PM   #81
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I Didn't know people still press more than one button to be come a level 90 crafter anymore.... huh, learn something new everyday.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #82
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Calthine wrote:

LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time

Well i know it may not be a boatload, but i made about 3k plat last year crafting in my spare time on an alt  (and spare time was slim at best).  Maybe you just don't know the market very well.

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Old 03-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:

It's incredibly easy and incredibly dull. I maxed all 9 because I felt it was worth it and too easy not too, but an alternative would be nice. Maybe while your out there harvesting you get xp everytime you find a rare, and put first time make bonus back in.

Its so easy and dull, put the first time bonus back in?   Wow that makes sense.. NOT.

Sorry while some are alt-a-holics, I am a craft-a-holic. I have crafted in this game since beta (bring back forge deaths!) and while it has been simplified, it has also been improved!  The questlines are a wonderful diversion from sitting at a crafting device and if anything, more would be welcomed!

I think the OP is forgetting, that just like the adventuring class, the more characters you have that reach max level, the bigger the veteran bonus.  I haven't paid much attention to the experience bar but there may be a way to disable it so its actually more work to level.

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Old 03-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #84
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I have a high tolerance for grinding.  I blame EQ1 for that.  Being on my 6th lev 90 adventurer, I can spend hours upon hours running in a wide circle in a dungeon slaughtering the same mobs and slowly watching my AA bar fill up.  Some people can't do that, and that's fine.

But nowadays I won't roll up a new crafter unless I have 24 Potions of Progress stored up from my apprentices.  Staring at the tradeskill window listening to its lulling melody of 4-5-6 reaction buffs is borderlne torture.  At least with the Potions, it's over quickly and I can go back to grinding AAs.

The difference is this.  Grinding on mobs, while still "button mashing", at least provides some visual distractions.  I'm required to move my toon around.  I can push more than 3 buttons.  There's a very slim chance that I'll overpull and end up dying.  It provides sufficient variety that I don't want to sleep.

There is no such variety for crafting.  The "vast quantity of interesting and engaging quests" for tradeskillers is cool once.  Maybe twice.  After that it's the same treadmill of quests with no further variety (I compare them to Kunark for adventuring.. I do everything I can to get through the 70s without thinking about Kunark).  Grind writs or run the same quest treadmill?  Not much of a choice.  Also considering some of the quests require levelling harvesting, the rush order writs are so much faster.

So, while I respect other's opinions that the current "system" is fine as is or how much they love the linear non-forking questlines available to attempt to break up the 1-90 climb for a new crafter, I have to agree with the overall premise of this post. 

Crafting is boring.

Full disclaimer: I've crafted since beta.  With exception of greedy alchemists, I liked the original community-based WORT subcombine system.  I've levelled 9 crafters to 90 before Domino pulled out pristine bonus.  I've levelled 5 more since Apprentices went in to increase my odds at getting a CR.  I'll continue to add a new 90 to my stable whenever my Progress pot count reaches 24.  But it's still dreadfully boring.

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Old 03-06-2012, 05:32 PM   #85
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i generally agree about crafting being too boring, i wish it was made into its own legitimate game, like adventuring has solo, group, raid. crafting really only has solo. one thing that has kept crafting simple is the community. they like to watch chat, they like soft penalties for screwing up, they like to only give activities partial concentration. if there was a way to keep general crafting simple so the socialites could still function, but still make it entertaining for those who focus...the designer should get a nobel prize. the more someone focuses the more challenging it has to be to justify their effort. ramping up penalties would be a gigantic shift for those who type in /crafting and miss counters. maybe they could keep penalties the same but just boost rewards if you craft at a high level...
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:56 AM   #86
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[email protected] wrote:

Calthine wrote:

LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time

Well i know it may not be a boatload, but i made about 3k plat last year crafting in my spare time on an alt  (and spare time was slim at best).  Maybe you just don't know the market very well.

Yes, me too. It's my main income, not that I use much money in game anyway.

I like crafting as it is. I can craft for hours long and don't find it boring. I do find the quest boring as there's only one set of quest and once you've done them on a couple of alts, it becomes boring (so it's not the quests but replayability of them).

If I get bored, I'll read a forum or chat at the same time.

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Old 03-07-2012, 10:55 AM   #87
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Calthine wrote:

LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time

Well i know it may not be a boatload, but i made about 3k plat last year crafting in my spare time on an alt  (and spare time was slim at best).  Maybe you just don't know the market very well.

Yes, me too. It's my main income, not that I use much money in game anyway.

I like crafting as it is. I can craft for hours long and don't find it boring. I do find the quest boring as there's only one set of quest and once you've done them on a couple of alts, it becomes boring (so it's not the quests but replayability of them).

If I get bored, I'll read a forum or chat at the same time.

People probably have different ideas about what equals "boatloads" of plat.   I can make more doing adventuring stuff than crafting things to sell.    I can run through a few dailies and get well over 3 plat adventuring.   I can sell harvested mats and drops from mobs and make a lot more plat.   I have friends who craft to make money and its consistent money.  Craft a few thousand throwing weapons and make a plat.   Me, I'd rather do something else.  

Partly its due to the fact that crafting causes pain in my right hand.  Repetitive motion type pain.  Speaking of which, does anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid that?   I do use the buttons and keep the mouse clicking to a minimum, but wow when I craft quantities of an item or do rush orders to level, the painnnnn.

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Old 03-07-2012, 12:58 PM   #88
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[email protected] wrote:

Calthine wrote:

LOL, no one's made boatloads of plat from crafting since the GU13 Crafted Legendary nerf, well before your time

Well i know it may not be a boatload, but i made about 3k plat last year crafting in my spare time on an alt  (and spare time was slim at best).  Maybe you just don't know the market very well.

Before LU13, crafters were the wealthiest characters, far above any who didn't craft. The first mounts (when they were considered expensive) were all bought by crafters. Money had more value then, so it's not the actual # of plat comparison, but the wealth in relation to others that's more relevant.

3k Plat in a year... Adventuring you could easily make 2-3x that without really trying. You could also spend it, too, without really trying SMILEY

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Old 03-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #89
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I just click 3 (I think that's the one that boosts durability by 8-9) and pop any required reactants until my items are done. This is the first crafter I've leveled, I'm only level 18 or so and I'm incredibly tired of it already :/

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Old 03-21-2012, 02:26 AM   #90
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I also played crafters in SWG... since 2003 in fact.  How was crafting?  Tediously easy.  It only took you 4 hours to level a crafter if you were brand new.  I tested it repeatedly and my best time 1-90 was 1 hour, 6 minutes.  Leveling in that game was jokingly easy. 

But guess what?  EQ is not SWG.  SWG isnt even SWG now.  Yes, SWG had a wonderful crafting system, but it fit with the theme.  This is EQ.  Wood is wood, and wood makes a table.  Not too much difference between a table and a table.  Stats were fun in SWG.  But even there every good crafter worth their salt had maxed stat resources. 

Three things that do bother me about crafting here that I wouldnt mind seeing changed:

1.  The reaction system.  Yes, its boring.  Yes, its spamming buttons.  And to what real point?  As has been brought up, the system it was designed for was changed years ago.  Its mostly a time sink imo.  A way to keep players watching their screen when the outcome is the same.  If you know even the basics of crafting you should never fail a combine these days.  So why have it?  A compromise could be use this system only with Mastercrafted items?

2.  This one is my biggest complaint about EQ crafting.  Crafting single items at a time.  Like other games, I would like to see a slider put in to increase quantity.  Wanna craft 10 tables?  Fine, spend 10x the resources and go for your combine.  If you happen to fail, your loss for gambling.  While this might not be a big issue for say, tables, its a little more frustrating for provisions.  SWG had factories.   LOTRO had it where the guilds sold recipes where you could craft 10 of an item at a time.  WoW... most of us know, you could craft however many you could craft.  This game still limits you in bulk crafting. 

3.  This one is more of an idea that I would be fine not getting.  One of the best features in SWG were factories.  You threw resources into an "oven", clicked how many you wanted to make, and hit start.  It would take MUUUUUCH longer than hand crafting, I think 3x or 5x, forget since its been about 6 months now, but the tradeoff was taking longer to make items while you went and did other things, not having to sit there and craft 100 muffins.  It would be interesting to see something like that here, maybe for "Master" level.  I dont think a level 90 Provisioner needs to sit there and watch his reactants for corn muffins.  He would have "assistants" to make those muffins.

In all, I agree and disagree with everyone here.  I find PARTS of crafting tedious, but its really not so bad.  I would rather craft here than in WoW or TOR.  But I agree crafting in SWG was the absolute best.  Its interesting and the quests help.  Things could be made easier or more flexible, especially the parts still used from a dead system.  But Ive seen worse also.

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