Dungeon Finder needs improvement

[CoLD MeTaL]

[email protected] wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

Raffir wrote:

Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.

DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.

Raf

This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.

However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.

thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.

This is why even cross-server DF will always be fail.  Smoke isn't willing to do what it would take for mere mortals to run zones.  I would LOVE to run zones but I refuse to buy loot rights at the insane prices going out there.

[CoLD MeTaL]

[email protected] wrote:

I have yet to be in a full group in DF.

That said, when I queue up for DF, I expect I will be the most geared person in the group and that I'll end up tanking the zone on my mystic, topping the parse, and working harder to keep everyone else alive than I would otherwise.

However, the biggest flaw with DF is the people who queue. I don't mind running DF for dungeons like Pools, Ascent, Spire, etc.

BUT if you queue up for Zek or Thrones or Drunder and you're wearing a full set of othmir gear or PQ, you should expect to fail and YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

People WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER and do the above are simply discourteous to those others in their group, who feel they should be entitled to be able to do things that they shouldn't be doing, and fully expect that 5 other people are going to carry their fail through the zone.

In PQ or othmir you don't have the critmit to queue for those zones and DF won't allow it. 

[Raffir]

Raffir wrote:

Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.

DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.

Raf

Roast wrote:

Some of this is true but zoning into ToRZ with 1 healer in resonable gear and a tank in PQ gear (solo jewlery, weapons and bp) is not going to cut it in this zone, it is not doable.  Trust me, i was there and its not fun. We managed to kill the first named with combat rezzing and some creative ping ponging of the mob agro.  The tank was so undergeared he could not hold agro from a 15k dps for even 5 seconds, durring the second named we wiped repetedly becasue of this.  The tank himself was not an awful player, he was ok but it was his gear that let him down (along with a lack of AA's and masters is my guess).

DoV is a highly gear based expansion, you simply can not progress without the gear, orgininaly  the zones were designed to require you to gear up from the previous zones to complete the next zone/teir and the balance was so tight it was still a challenge even then.  Remember trying to get past Fortress Spire when all you group had was PQ/Acent/Pools etc gear? thats right it was tough but it was possible.

Challenge is fine but no chance of success is not, there should be one and not the other or its simply not fun. 

---------------------------------------------------------

I agree.  I think the problem lies in that perhaps DF originally assumed that we would all take a look at our options and un-click the instances we were not geared for.  I do it all the time.  I know which instances are not applicable to the whatever toon I'm playing. I disable those queues, then queue up for the instances I'm interested in "and" know that I can contribute successfully to.

What  DF failed to recognize, I think, is that some people are simply not capable of self regulating..or they simply don't care and want to ride on the coat tails of others to get XP and loot at the expense of the entire group.

Maybe DF should be relegated to levels 20-80...and let people continue to put together DoV groups via their Guilds and 1-9?

Or, as has been suggested...implement a minimum gear requirement for advanced instances.

Raf

[Raknid]

I think there are some people who are discourteous, but I think a large measure of it is due to the way the game is structured. Soling to 90 then expecting people to understand mechanics and zones well enough to know which ones they can do is asking a little much. The DF needs to be designed so that it brackets the zones any particular player can do, spreading from no problem all the way to tough challenge. Running "tough challenge" dungeons will give players a chance to develop their own feel for what they can do. Throwing them in "destined to fail" gropups/dungeons does absolutelty nothing in regards to moving them along in progression, let alone allowing them to get some manner of enjoyment from their time.

[Crillus]

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I would really hate the idea of  some 'gear score' system coming to EQ2 - it blasts the whole game to the point of just a pointless numbers game of raiding for gear so you can get gear to raid for more gear.

there already is gear score its just not put into a number called 'gear score'. With the velious gear look at two pieces for the same slot. If one has more stamina (and main stat, their both the same usually) the one with more stamina is better than the other, more often than not. there are exceptions of course, usually because some stat is close to capped or severe diminishing returns, so if the 'better' item has that stat it doesn't look as good. But I gaurantee the gear score they were planning on then hid would show the item with higher base stats would have a higher score as well.

This IS a gear based game. Just because you have managed to get by with little to no concern about gear doesn't change that.

As for the objections to gear checks for DF there is a very easy and currently available solution: don't use it. If you don't like that line I hope you were never one of the people that said or supported the tired line of 'then don't buy it' when it came to AoD objections, since you would then be a hypocrite.

Gear checks shouldn't be based on tier of equipment though, should be more like a 'stat check', much like Rift.

But from a RP stance - with this being a RP game after all, a lot of that is inconsequential. Personally - my twink Necro now is in pretty much all Legendary/Mastercrafted or better Gear, my higher level guardian is too - but there's one CORE reason I don't like WoW - it's not a RP game, it's a numbers game. I play the broker a lot and can usually seem to find deals and such - gearing on the broker is really pretty simple, TBH anyway.

If EQ2 becomes a numbers game, I won't be very interested anymore - I want to play a RP Game...

I 'power gamed' in EQLive and in WoW to a degree and am just tired of it. To me it becomes a pointless circle of raiding to get gear so I can get gear to raid for more gear, etc, etc, etc..

Can't we have two types of Dungeon Finder groups? Perhaps one that's "RP" where people, in any gear can gather for a dungeon - with the understanding that this group isn't as concerned with numbers on gear as much as it is the 'dungeon crawl' fun aspect.

Then another type of DF group that just wants to Steamroll the zone. I'm not saying either type of player is 'wrong' as some of us play the game for sheer power-gaming and others play the game to be immersed in a RP environment. To me the gear is a means to an end, and I have the most fun in this game when I ignore OOC chatter in 1-9, ignore auction chatter, ignore gear stats and well - just have fun playing.

That being said, I've only done a single DF group and not a word was mentioned about gear, but we did well in the instance and since we were on the same server - we went and did three more dungeons without the Dungeon Finder - making it quite fun actually. I kinda like the idea of it being on the same server as it creates possibilities. I ran good groups with others in WoW too - but you couldn't ever group with them again intentionally, no matter how good the group went.

Just saying it would be nice if we could flag a couple options in the Dungeon Finder like:

*Same server only

*Power Dungeon Style or RP Dungeon Style

Could just be flags - that's all - so the group knows what to expect coming into it.

Sometimes I wish they'd just offer gear for sale via SC - that way the people who want the quick gear-up can just buy it..

[Banditman]

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

[deadcrickets2]

What I'd like to see chnage wise to Dungeon Finder:

* Cross server

* Gear checks for DoV dungeons

* A button to return where you came from

* Quests related to the dungeon available in the dungeon (Seriously, who is going to run to Firmroot to pick up the Guk dungeon quests?)

* A dungeon completion bonus

* Dungeon timer reset on dungeon completion (no more of this "left the dungeon too soon" message when you are done)

* Removal of the 15 minute lockout

* Increase the amount of time allowed to accept going into a dungeon (120 seconds maybe?)

* Allow you to set your role

* Bug fix the problem with mercs preventing you from reinforcing a group that isn't full

* Bug fix the issue where you can't reinforce as it considers you not part of the dungeon group despite being leader of said group

* Bug fix it sending you to completed dungeons

* Bug fix it not pulling an already made group into a dungeon

* Bug fix it sometimes not finding a dungeon until you unqueue and requeue and suddenly you instantly have a freaking dungeon

* Alter the experience per mob on zones such as Najena's as it's so low most people give up on it

* Bug fix it offering Shard of Love nearly every time.  Seriously, it's not random when it pops up 19 out of 20 times.

* Alter the difficulty of zones such as SoS to be a real dungeon again

* Bug fix the random dropping of group when you have a merc already summoned and dungeon finder pulls you in.

* Mark some dungeons as hard and setup dungeon finder to increase the bonus further for doing the dungeon.

[CoLD MeTaL]

SmokeJumper wrote:

Raffir wrote:

Half the fun of DF "is" the dice roll.  Can you do this with the team or partial team you've zoned in with?  Everyone doesn't have to be uber geared, nor do you have a fully functional and balanced group. The challenge is to do it.

DF won't replace a good guild.  But it might add some spice and challenge to your gameplay..if you let it.

Raf

This attitude is what we hope to bolster with the current random item incentive you get each day. This kind of "see if you can overcome the challenges with what's at hand" attitude is what DF is kind of all about. The incentives are reward for those that want to face that kind of game.

However, it's become obvious that although that works for 1-89, and even in SF, it doesn't work in Velious because of the difficulty of those dungeons. We're discussing potential fixes after the new year. Expect a staged solution so that DF becomes more what you're looking for.

You are about 5 expansions and a cash shop late on that one Smoky.

[Leinna]

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

New incentives only work if you actually get to play...I queue everytime I log in on my ranger (from level 40-77) and I have NEVER once got an invite.  Sometimes I am in the queue for 4 hours+.

[Valentina]

I've posted about this before, but.. the problem with Velious dungeons is the scripting that severely punishes sub-optimal groups unless those groups contain over-geared characters (which often defeats the point of running the dungeon in the first place). Nobody should have to have gear better than what drops in a zone to be able to run that zone, but that's pretty much what is required if you have a less than maximum sized group, or a group of six random toons tossed together (a la dungeon finder). I've had two successful dungeon finder groups since it launched. In both cases, we were successful because one or two of the people in the group were actually raiders, whose gear dwarfed everyone else, and who were generous enough to run the dungeons even though they did not need anything from them. That's a pretty darn rare occurrence, and is not something dungeon finder should have to rely on. Since then, my partner and I have been unable to find groups via DF, and have tried to progress through instances on our own, but two appropriately geared players (even with mercs) have very little chance of advancing through the Velious instances, due to the scripting that makes boss encounters infinitely harder than every other mob in the zone. We're not going to SLR just so we can run a zone that, at that point, will no longer provide us with any actual reward. So we're taking some time off and playing a different game that actually lets us advance as a small group.

[Leophage]

Most of the groups I've been getting while leveling alts have been through Dungeon Finder.  The tool itself works well enough; the bad experiences I've had in DF groups are mostly because of the players, not the DF tool.DF taught me that there are a lot of people who don't know how to play EQ2 in general or their class specifically.  For example, I've had wardens, inquisitors and mystics all tell a DF group "I'm not a healer".  I've had SKs and berserkers tell the group that they weren't tanks.  Not that they "the player" didn't heal or tank; they said their CLASS wasn't a healing or tanking class.Are they stupid?  Nope, just ignorant...like the people who /sit between pulls because they think it regens power faster.  Or who spell rogue as "rouge" and will argue you four ways from Sunday that their spelling is correct.Dungeon Finder has made me aware of the huge segment of the player population who don't have a clue.  All you can do if you want to level up and are repelled by the non-stop drama of belonging to a guild is to grit your teeth, queue up for DF and mix a strong drink.If you are one of the ignorant ones, you don't know it.  But if people vote to kick you out of a group, that's your first clue.

[Crillus]

Banditman wrote:

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.

And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.

I'm a decent tank, i can hold agro, I pay attention to the situation and the group, I keep my gear up to par, but it doesn't mean I want some arbitraty number system gutting the game either - like WoW. And even if I'm in 100% fabled gear doesn't mean i care if the healer is...

WoW isn't about the 'game' or fun to many people, it's about numbers.

If you don't equal "X", then you don't go. That's not the style many of us care to play, that's all. Options won't hurt.

[bks6721]

Khurghan wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

thats a nice idea, but since you let raiders sell raid loot they now expect EVERYONE to wear it even for the simple dungeons.

Guy De Alsace wrote:

Thats precisely it. Now that SLR has become commonplace, if you don't have the gear you can't do the zones as the group will kick you out without the right gear. Now you have to buy your way in. It's a ludicrous situation.

You only have to see the clamouring for the gear in channels to see people out there are desperate for it and are willing to pay an insane amount of plat for gear. Several thousand plat in most cases.

Maybe spend less time wasting other peoples time doing dungeons, and spend a bit more time farming plat so you can get some decent gear and not slow the rest of us down in dunegons?

It's trivial to make 3-4k plat a week easy, there is no excuse for people at level 90 doing dungeons to be in at least full x2/easy mode gear these days.

I won't buy gear.  I could afford a lot of it but that is not how the game should be played in my opinion.

If you think grouping is a waste of time then stop playing.

YOU are what is wrong with dungeon finder.

People like you who demand players like me have x2 gear for Ascent?   Get a life.

[Onorem]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Banditman wrote:

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.

And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.

I don't see anyone saying that it has to be about gear for gear (OK...I do see them, but I choose to ignore them.) I want more carrot myself. Options are good. Dungeon finder (currently) is horrible.

[Crillus]

Onorem wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Banditman wrote:

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.

And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.

I don't see anyone saying that it has to be about gear for gear (OK...I do see them, but I choose to ignore them.) I want more carrot myself. Options are good. Dungeon finder (currently) is horrible.

That's all I'm saying - it doesn't have to be 'RP' per se - I was just trying to think of an applicable term I suppose. I'm not a hard core RPer either.

But to that - no matter how well I'm decked out; I'd be happy to group with 5 others who are in horrid gear. I mean, you don't start with legendary gear, some people don't want to buy it, etc..

Just saiyng if the DF ends up being all "well you aren't geared right for .... " - I won't use it anyway, and if I'm geared well enough - why would I even need to, I'd likely be grouping/raiding with a guild anyway...

[bks6721]

Banditman wrote:

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.

[Raffir]

DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.

Raf

[CoLD MeTaL]

Raffir wrote:

DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.

Raf

Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.

[Raknid]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Raffir wrote:

DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.

Raf

Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.

Can you point to someone saying the dungeon finder is fine for DoV dungeons? I will take links, not even quotes.

[Banditman]

[email protected] wrote:

Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.

I completely disagree.  DF should be effective for anyone in gear appropriate for a zone.  Where that gear came from is irrelevant.

Anyone who uses DF should expect that players who choose to queue up for a zone have gear that will allow them to be effective in said zone.  There needs to be a sanity check, if for no other reason than some players simply may not KNOW what sort of gear is required for a given zone.  (And NO!  Crit Mit is not the ONLY consideration here.)  There are other reasons . . . they may not care, they may have a poor estimation of their own gear, etc.  Whatever.

DF needs to work for everyone.  In order to do that it absolutely needs to make gear an important part of equation.  Some iteration of Gear Score does nothing more than put a number to the player.  There isn't any "I think I can" . . . "Maybe it will work".  It's a number.  Pass or fail.  If ($Fail){"You are not well enough equipped for this dungeon"}

Now, if progression is frakked, that's (another) problem SOE will need to fix, but frankly, I don't think that's the case here.  I've run Tower of Tactics now many times with players in RyGorr gear and they did just fine.  Heroic progression seems to be fairly solid, if a bit cumbersome.  PQ + Velks gets you to Kael.  Kael gets you to Drunder.  It's not rocket science.  Really.

[Raffir]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Raffir wrote:

DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.

Raf

Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.

Do you even read what other people post?

[Neiloch]

There is a heroic progression in DoV and it works fine without ever buying loot rights. You don't need to have better gear than what the zone drops. If your problem is the players, people in DF will be more forgiving than someone shouting LFG in channels thus more accomadating for lower geared players, not less. Once they put some sort of gear or stat requirement on DF it will force players to look at their skill, not gear, as the problem if they are failing.

A DF with a gear check putting a group together should say: "You are all qualified to clear this zone, so if you fail it is because 1 or more of you suck at the game" Not literally say it of course, but that's the message. that's what I loved about Rift DF. If a group was put together in DF any excuse blaming gear was already void before you even start. It would also make anyone who drops out of a group because they think the group is undergeared look like a fool and poor player.

[CoLD MeTaL]

Raknid wrote:

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Raffir wrote:

DF is a good tool for leveling alts and having a bit of fun.  But, just limit DF to levels 20-80 and the problem is fixed.  DoV Groups can be put together just like they were before DF.

Raf

Only eliteist, min/maxer, raiders think it is fine in DoV.  Mere mortals that are not going through zones with more powerful gear than the zone drops to SLR do not share your opinion.

Can you point to someone saying the dungeon finder is fine for DoV dungeons? I will take links, not even quotes.

"it" is that forming groups is fine without DF in DoV zones.  NOT that DF is fine in DoV.  rule of antecedents should of made that clear, but sorry if it didn't.

[millie]

Raknid wrote:

millie wrote:

Elomort wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

We'll be working on it after the new year.

But in the meantime, the new incentives are pretty sweet. You might consider trying it once a day just for the daily reward...

The incentives can never make up for the poor group forming unfortunately and where EQ2 DR fails is often witht he scripts and DPS checks put in for optimal grouping. I hate to say it, but as long as you keep throwing sub-optimal groups at dungeons your very own traps are going to make people hate SF and stop running it.

When you do get to working on it please do the following:

Cross server. This is a given and must happen.

You must allow people to choose a role. Tank, healer, DPS, Support. There were too many people in DPS gear who ended up being the tank by default in places they were being one shot.

For those dungeons like Rime Spires where you need to have a certain group make up (healer and a rezzer in this case) please make sure you don't send in a group that just can't get past the scripts.

Please group like people together, at worst one either way. Improve the "gearscore" so that you don't end up with a group who is unlikely to pass any DPS checks you have scripted.

Fix looting so that people can't need on anything that is not in their class and so the need option is greyed out on collections and quest items.

Make sure that /ignore will never group you with that person.

Make everyone click accept before zoning in. If you don't get a full group then please leave them outside. Nothing worse than zoning in and seeing 1/2 the group declined.

Stop SLR. It must be killed off, and fast.

There are more, just can't recall them all right now.

there is only one way of stopping SLR...

As long as raid gear is better for doing heroic instances than heroic gear people will want it.

If they want it someone will find some way of selling it.

Make raid gear only better than heroic gear for doing raid instances.

Make it the same or worse than heroic gear for doing heroic instances and SLR will stop over night.

... and befor you start talking about Drunder gear or EoW gear, just think; isnt it the people in raid gear that are happily SLR for that too, because it is so much easier for them to get it in raid gear?

Not that anyone cares about PvP, but those guys/gals already must have two sets of gear if they want to PvP and raid, now you are saying they are going to required to have 3 if they also want to do group instances? Let alone that, anyone on PvE who raids is going to be required to have 2 sets now if they want to do group content also?

If they do that they need to go one step further and make "group" level gear ineffective against "solo" level content. That way it is fair for everyone and you must have a set of gear for each level of content solo/group/raid...and PvP for the for PvP folks.

Yeah, that sure sounds like a plan.

I said "the same or worse" for heroic content, and by heroic content I meant non-epic.  So your raid gear would work everywhere just not better than heroic gear for heroic content, one set of gear not 2 or 3.

Oh and btw the same should be true for PvP gear, best in breed for PvP, not better than heroic for PvE, still two sets not three (raid and non-raid[+PvP]).

[Amanathia]

Banditman wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Dungeon find IS for noobs.  It does no good to anyone for raiders to queue up and expect everyone else using dungeon finder to be equally geared.

I completely disagree.  DF should be effective for anyone in gear appropriate for a zone.  Where that gear came from is irrelevant.

Anyone who uses DF should expect that players who choose to queue up for a zone have gear that will allow them to be effective in said zone.  There needs to be a sanity check, if for no other reason than some players simply may not KNOW what sort of gear is required for a given zone.  (And NO!  Crit Mit is not the ONLY consideration here.)  There are other reasons . . . they may not care, they may have a poor estimation of their own gear, etc.  Whatever.

DF needs to work for everyone.  In order to do that it absolutely needs to make gear an important part of equation.  Some iteration of Gear Score does nothing more than put a number to the player.  There isn't any "I think I can" . . . "Maybe it will work".  It's a number.  Pass or fail.  If ($Fail){"You are not well enough equipped for this dungeon"}

Now, if progression is frakked, that's (another) problem SOE will need to fix, but frankly, I don't think that's the case here.  I've run Tower of Tactics now many times with players in RyGorr gear and they did just fine.  Heroic progression seems to be fairly solid, if a bit cumbersome.  PQ + Velks gets you to Kael.  Kael gets you to Drunder.  It's not rocket science.  Really.

Yep, and gotta lol at the at the stuff complaining that SLR is the problem...

Basically there needs to be a sanity check...IE, PQ and quest gear?  Can queue up for rime and tofs.  Ry'gorr can queue up for that plus kael.  Sanity check for Ry'gorr plus some kael jewelry and crit mit?  Can queue up for drunder heroic and for the tofs x2 (should be in df honestly).  Drunder heroic stuff?  Can queue up for EOW.

The whole "but people demand raid gear!" is a massive strawman arguement that has no bearing whatsoever on reality...Reality is more like:  queue up for torz?  Might get a tank with 25k hp.  Not goin anywher.  

[Amanathia]

[email protected] wrote:

There is a heroic progression in DoV and it works fine without ever buying loot rights. You don't need to have better gear than what the zone drops. If your problem is the players, people in DF will be more forgiving than someone shouting LFG in channels thus more accomadating for lower geared players, not less. Once they put some sort of gear or stat requirement on DF it will force players to look at their skill, not gear, as the problem if they are failing.

A DF with a gear check putting a group together should say: "You are all qualified to clear this zone, so if you fail it is because 1 or more of you suck at the game" Not literally say it of course, but that's the message. that's what I loved about Rift DF. If a group was put together in DF any excuse blaming gear was already void before you even start. It would also make anyone who drops out of a group because they think the group is undergeared look like a fool and poor player.

This.

[Roast22]

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Banditman wrote:

NO.  JUST FRAKKING NO.

FFS.

RP DUNGEON FINDER!?!?!?

If you are so determined to RP, the wander your [donkey] around town and look for a group in ROLE PLAYING fashion; /say only and with all the color you care to put into it.

What you are REALLY asking for is a "Dungeon Finder for Noobs" and WE DONT NEED IT.

No, I'm just saying the whole game doesn't have to be about having gear to raid/group to get more gear. Doesn't that seem pointless to some of you too? I'm not saying it's not a legit way to play - to each their own, but some of us DO see the 'carrot on a stick' running for gear as not important so much.

And what would it matter if there are more options? Not everyone likes to play the same way.

I'm a decent tank, i can hold agro, I pay attention to the situation and the group, I keep my gear up to par, but it doesn't mean I want some arbitraty number system gutting the game either - like WoW. And even if I'm in 100% fabled gear doesn't mean i care if the healer is...

WoW isn't about the 'game' or fun to many people, it's about numbers.

If you don't equal "X", then you don't go. That's not the style many of us care to play, that's all. Options won't hurt.

your already to late to request this, CM and CC are already part of DoV (other stats are also important too but these are the must haves) and are REQUIRED to progress, they have removed some of the CM requirements but CC is still in.  EQ2 at cap in heroic + is already a numbers game, like it or not.  You want to know if someone is able to run ToRZ most people will ask what their crit chance is at the very least, you don't have to call it gearscore if you don't want to but its the same thing in a different package.

[rollando]

Imo, there are 2 things to fix :

1) The Sentinel's Fate dungeon gear is not attractive. Make the drops in level 90 SF dungeons on par with what public quests give.

2) To make a group based progression work, you need people to group with. That's easy at the start of a new expansion, but not later : many toons are already geared up, and, with heirloom items everywhere, alts skip the progression. So :

     a) make the DF cross-server, to expand the pool of players you can group with

     b) make it so that every toon has to go through some of the progression, even with a full bank of heirloom raid drops to equip from 

[Banditman]

[email protected] wrote:

Imo, there are 2 things to fix :

1) The Sentinel's Fate dungeon gear is not attractive. Make the drops in level 90 SF dungeons on par with what public quests give.

This is a decent idea.

[Munty]

I'm sure these have been brought up before but I'm going to reiterate them, because these two issues are completely destroying the usefulness of this tool for me.

First, do not zone anyone in until everyone has said they are ready and willing to zone in.  I am absolutely sick of getting locked out of the DF for 15 mins because 3/5 decided they don't want to run that zone.  I know the lockout was supposed to deter those people, but it's punishing EVERYONE for it.  Reinforcing doesn't seem to do anything..if that worked, then great.  At least in WoW (and I hate to draw parallels, but there you go) you were put to the top of the queue so you'd get someone pretty darned quick if someone did drop.

Second, lockouts: really?  You can't have lockouts with a dungeon finder.  That will only mean less and less people will be available to run that zone later in the day.  Oh hey guildie, want to run ISK?  Oh, you're locked...nevermind then, I'll pug it.  Oh but wait I can't because the wait time is 3 hours but I have to go to bed in 2.  Lockouts are incompatible with a successful dungeon finder.  

I'm trying to like this feature, but it's not really working out.  Every time I use it something goes wrong.  I either get zoned into a complete fail group, one that has no chance of clearing the zone, or worse still I'm zoned in alone or with one other person that quickly leaves, giving me a 15 minute lockout.  I've had maybe 3 awesome groups in the whole time I've used it.  The good groups are good, really frickin' good, but the bad ones, oh boy are they something else.  And I resent getting locked out because of it.