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Old 08-19-2010, 02:42 AM   #1
Jeal
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Legionnare's focus - needs to be MINIMUM 5% per rank

Devout Prayers - MINIMUM 10% per rank

Devout Faith - 10 % per rank

Holy Prayers - 10% per rank

Allied Prayers - 10% per rank

IM NOT JOKING  this won't even come NEAR putting us to where we were prior to the un-needed crit nerf but it will at least make speccing some of these abilities viable.. otherwise they're useless aa abilities for even more useless heals

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Old 08-19-2010, 04:37 AM   #2
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I think even your minimum values are very conservative.  With the lack of crit, we aren't even guaranteed to hit for the top end of the spread on any given cast.  

In raid today, I hit my group heal immediately after an aoe.  That used to be enough to bring people back to green.  Tonight, I honestly did not notice a single person's health move.  And I imagine I'm not the only one who could tell a story like that.

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Old 08-19-2010, 08:18 AM   #3
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I can tell a story like that only swap the word raid for group instance. SOE, all the paladin aa heal abillities need a complete rework, thanks.

EDIT:

Thinking about it they could also rework the way these spells work. At least make them uninterruptable and have their power costs reduced greatly. In other words make them cheep pwr ca's.

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Old 08-19-2010, 09:54 AM   #4
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I have the exact same story from raid last night, where as my group heal used to make a dent in the groups health after an aoe from an easy mode mob I hardly made a dent, in fact it wasnt worth casting in the end up.

We are not asking for Paladins to be healers but what is the point in having heals when they don't make any difference what so ever if you cast them or not.

I agree with the op, his ideas would go a long way to helping but still not bring them in line with T9 hit points.  The heals pre GU57 were in line with T9 hit points.

With 30K hit points in raid what use is a group heal of 4K, a single target heal of 4.5K and a ward of 5K?  And that is with using the aa's as they stand now and the group heal red adorn.  This is not rocket science I'm sorry.

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:16 AM   #5
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I have a lvl 82 Paladin that I solo with. Don't do raids and very rarely groups. Don't do PVP or BG either. Just run around on his own having fun. Guess he is too old for that now and needs to retire to his hovel in nettleville. Heals for a solo toon are important. Thanks for helping kill him off.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:45 AM   #6
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Please listen to Jeal and Boli whoever is listening and can tweak stuff.

Thanks for all the hard work guys, shouting and bring data. Hopefully we can get our stuff at least put up to something that's worth casting.

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Old 08-19-2010, 11:58 AM   #7
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Agree! and instant casting or/rather faster casting too our Ward!

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Old 08-19-2010, 12:08 PM   #8
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n/m

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Old 08-19-2010, 06:54 PM   #9
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Ok it gets much worse, tanking Tox, tying to spot heal and ward (which is a huge part of my defensive capability), and suprise suprise I am being interupted half the time,  when I do get a heal off its 10% of my hit points, when I do get the ward off its 10% of my hit points, couple this with the fact I am running round half the time and I can't cast them on the run the heals as it stands are useless.  Absolutely no doubt about it they are completely and uterly pointless under that situation to use.

I am not a healer who stands in one position all the time, I am a tank. Mobs hit me and interrupt me, and I have to move sometimes.  <-- this point has been missed by the devs in my opinion.

If you are taking 1/2 of our defence away from us then you need to do something.

Seriously I was hoping this thing wasnt going to be so bad, but it is much worse than I invisiged.

Read the OP's post, and the reason he says he isnt joking and capitalises it is he isnt, this is so weak it is untrue.

This has to improve period!  And fast before we loose people.

Kahling.

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Old 08-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #10
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Paladin, EverQuest II definition:

Paladins - Icons of Virtue. The paladin combines the strength and battle prowess of a fighter with the healing and buffing of a cleric.

I don't even raid hardcore anymore and hardly post in these forums, but SONY you really screwed our class over. NOT Crusaders, just Paladins. Thank you for making me cancel what was a great game.

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Old 08-19-2010, 07:56 PM   #11
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Dear SOE DEVs,

  Thanks for the Paladin changes! We were the worst at (fighter) DPS and now you took the one thing that balanced us with the other fighters and destroyed the class. Nice work.

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Old 08-19-2010, 09:34 PM   #12
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I love the animation for casting Ward or "taking a [Removed for Content]" so much, please decrease the reuse timer please!

Its obviously for fluff purposes now, just like the heal spells we used to have.

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Old 08-20-2010, 01:15 AM   #13
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Wow its a lot worse than I thought, finally had a day to go out soloing... I still get it done, but talk about even more downtime and power issues than before. Can't wait to see what joys grouping brings this weekend.

They need to do something to fix this and fast.

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Old 08-20-2010, 02:02 AM   #14
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They need to make some fundamental adjustments to what exactly our heals are for. Currently they are set up just like any other heals. Healers are built to do nothing but heal, and their heals make it possible to survive on fights. Our heals should be supplementing our survivability, not dictating it like priest heals. That supplementation doesn't come from having more heal amount or less heal amount, but rather properly applying that heal amount and being able to use it fluidly. Was tossing around the possibility of making all of our heals instant cast, or able to be cast while moving like a combat art. Most of the usefulness of our heals is diminished because we are unable to use them in the most dire of situations such as repositioning a mob, immediately after an aoe (Almost EVERY AOE interrupts, so no precasting) or while we're actually injured (1 second cast time is completely demolished by two healers in a dire situation.. you're lucky to even get it off.) If they don't want us to be able to solo heal ourselves through outrageous content, that's fine and I agree.  I don't believe they want to make our heals useless, and when you're relying on luck.. you need large numbers to make it worth casting. If our casting times were greatly reduced and our heals were fast cast and unable to be interrupted, we could make much more use out of much less heal amount. My suggestion: We have a few AAs which are potentially able to be thrown around. Make the heal line worth something. Remove 20% of the cast time per point into each of our heals.. final point turns them instant cast.

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Old 08-20-2010, 05:14 AM   #15
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Post nerf nealing capability showcasing what still functions and what is useless.

Toxx, MT, wasn't eaten - mainly tried to use Direct group heal to help top the group up after AoE

Wansuu MT; spammed ward - messed up on tube initially so had to wait 5min for it to reset so longer fight than normal :/

Notice our direct heals suffer A LOT... before they crit for ~ 10-11k and when your health is 30k+ this ws fine as they SCALED. now you'll notice that the healing ability from the direct heals is laughable. Paladin heals need to either be ramped up; or the healing spells themselves looked at in a completely different way. I suggest longer duration "small reactives" (100-150?) but with damage reduction for duration so they scale from solo to herioc to raid. and our group heal should help protect the group.. not simply drain us of power.

I'm still casting my heals out of habit now but the reduction is so bad I'm removing them from my cast order. So what will we be... a paladin, a tank who heals... who doesn't heal. We want our heals to be USEFUL... not fluff... no other class will have so many fluff spells (direct heals, myth clicky)

On a side note our monk - his heal was betetr than my Lay on hands as since mine was direct and his was percentage based. The greater my health the worse LoH scaled.

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Old 08-20-2010, 05:26 AM   #16
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btw no doubt there will be some here sayers coming on and claiming that 680/760 hps is "too much" and they shodul reduce it further.

I would like to draw attention to the other thread point out how MUCH of pallys survival abilities are heal based or rely on heals. Healing *is* part of a paladins tanking order. Its just now our direct heals are pretty much rendered useless. Given they were our "utility" (but pallys can heal argument) this has bene a massive nerf to pallys.

nb: woudl be interesting to see some zerker/brawler/Sk healparses after the nerf - I'm guessing SKs haven't changed much and zerkers have still got decent heals; none of their spells were reduced into uselessness.

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Old 08-20-2010, 06:46 AM   #17
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Something need to be done about this it effects Paladins far more than any other fighter class the Nerf  was never justified and Paldin heals now badly need to be adjusted to make them useful in the SF environment.

I have played Paladin almost from launch through good and bad but you have finally made me reach the point of no retrun. I have also cancelled my auto renewal of subcrition as of today. I  do not like the direction the game is going with the free to play version and nothing new of substance until February together with the utter contempt you show to your loyal customers. The final straw was an offer to copy my character to extended for a 'mear' $35.00 by e-mail today why on earth would anyone want to do this I have already paid by subscription for this content for the last 5 years oh and if I want level 90 ( not available at the moment) that will be $200 thank you you are joking.

I suspect I will end up in WOW or maybe Rift when it comes out but you have aleinated a loyal player and I suspect I am not the only one.

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Old 08-20-2010, 10:34 AM   #18
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We are loosing people, dev's you need to act fast, look at boli's data, and especially his post in the other thread in the Paladin forum. 

Could we at least have a "its been looked at" please.

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Old 08-20-2010, 11:21 AM   #19
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I canceled my subscription as soon as the server came back up from maintenance. I don't want to quit playing, but I can't in good conscience support this kind of nerfing.

I don't think potency is ever going to be a legitimate way to fix this problem. Even if they make the change now, and give some potency to the heals, then as soon as we hit the next expansion Paladins will need to be tweaked again. Everyone else will continue scaling with gear/content, and we will scale at less than half that growth rate, like I've stated many times more.

Without critical being restated, but perhaps at a reduced rate, such that the end nerf had been 15-25% at MAX, instead of the 50-75%+ (7000 to 1800 in PVP, seriously?) it is now.

There are major issues to this problem remaining unresolved:

- Other tanks have debuffs which debilitate enemies and reduce the damage they do to the tank. These debuffs can be applied in tanking and nontanking roles. Debuffs scale with enemy strength. Paladins have no such debuffs.

- Other tanks have defensive timers, some of which can be shared, which help reduce damage they do tothe tank. These effects can be applied in tanking and nontanking roles. Defensive timers scale with enemy strength. Paladins have no such timers.

- Healers will continue to scale with crit bonus into the future, and content will be forced to scale to healers. Paladins will scale at less than half this rate, and will only face a growing performance gap into the future.

Paladins have always reduced and mitigated damage worse than other tanks. That's why the Paladin mythical is what it is, to make up for the ability to soak damage compared to other tanks. Paladins were all about soak and recover, soak and recover. Other tanks stopped the damage from even touching them, but Paladins relied on their own heals and their party's heals.

What should be done now is a complete overhaul of Paladin healing spells. If a nerf is necessary then reduce the impact of crit bonus, but do not bar Paladin's from proper progression. It will only require examination and fixing later.

Arch Heal should be removed from the game. In its place put an AA that allows Paladins to critically heal like they did before, but reduce the crit bonus of heals by 15-30%. Note that removing arch heal is removing an entire heal option, and trading AA for something we had to begin with.

Holy Aid: With the ability to critically heal restored, even at a reduced rate, this ability should be fine.

Demonstration of Faith: Due to being a ward it is already suffering minor scaling issues. The best fix would be to reduce casting speed though, so that this ability is more viable in situations that aren't pre-pull. On one of the existing demonstration of faith AAs add a slight cast speed reduction.

Prayer of Healing: With crit healing restored, even at a reduced rate, this ability should be fine. It is the paladin's "first response" for group saving in a lot of ways, and the aggro it generates is too key to nerf this ability.

Devout Sacrament: This ability is in my opinion one of the key problems. It is slow, fragile, and unreliable. Being able to heal for nearly 15k in some settings is really silly. In solo this much HP is ridiculous, in groups this is a gamble heal, by the time it goes off you may be healed by your healer, or you may be interrupted and come too slow to save yourself. Change Devout Sacrament into a new ability, preferably one that is useful as a tank timer in support situations but also somewhat reduces a Paladin's spike healing. Suggestion: Devout sacrament becomes a group buff. It improves healing received by the group by 10-15%, and any time the Paladin casts a spell it heals group members for an additional amount of minor damage, and deal a minor amount of damage to nearby enemies ala infusion (and the heals/dps give it a reason to continue leveling/be mastered.) Essentially a sacrament to your group that you will get them through tough times. I suggest 10s duration, 20s with aas, and 90s cooldown. This will give Paladins a healing timer that we can use to improve the resilience of our group without stepping on the tank timers that belong to the other tanks. Removing the spike heal that is devout sacrament for an ability that scales to content, party size, and still has a Paladin flavor to it would be a good way to start.

Lay on Hands: This is the other major problem. Easily capable of healing for 20-25k this ability is simply absurd, even for a timer. While incredibly useful as an instantaneous bounceback this move is not very different than an active death save, bringing no flavor, and no real value to the Paladin. Again, let's reduce the spike healing while improving the Paladin's tool base. Suggestion: Cut the healing value by half, and now add an improves incoming healing on target by 15-25% for 15s. This will give Paladin's the ability to LOH a tank, whether it be themselves, or another tank (key here) and improve their survivability in a unique way, while also reducing their own spike healing, and trading it for a certain amount of extended toughness.

Short and simple:

Remove two heals in Arch Heal and Devout Sacrament. Arch Heal becomes a passive AA that requires investing 21 points in order to heal. Devout Sacrament becomes a group tank timer/heal timer, that operates in a supporting role and functions as tank and off-tank.

Nerf LoH, and add a new buff mechanic to it that will scale better with content.

Leave the 3 base heals alone, but slightly improve the casting on one to make it slightly more easy to use.

With a new mechanic in improving heals, one that they already explore in a way with Crusade, Paladins continue to be the soak and recover tanks, but they scale better with groups/content, and offer some new utility to help offset their overall reduced healing.

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Old 08-25-2010, 01:46 AM   #20
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Tanking the sages became much harder for me.  The spikes I take from one of the names I used to be able to compensate for with my heals.  Now my heals hardly amount to anything and my healers are working a lot harder to keep me on my feet.  I died 2 times to one of the sages.  Same one two times in a row and lucky for us we were still able to recover.  This is BS.  Before the change I was always able to pop an emergency heal if needed and now I'm a watered-down guardian without the defensive abilities of one because my heals are useless.  Our heals balanced our lack of spike prevention.  Now we have no spike prevention.  My heals mean jack on a raids now.  I was spamming wards to try to reduce the damage somewhat but it didnt help for the spikes. 

I feel like we are now back in the same situation we found ourselves in a few expansions ago.  All of this because at SOE they dont listen to feedback, they dont QA anything and they dont know anything about the classes they are balancing because the team keeps changing every 2 months.  I'm on the verge of canceling and I've been playing this game since it launched. 

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Old 08-25-2010, 07:04 AM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

IM NOT JOKING  this won't even come NEAR putting us to where we were prior to the un-needed crit nerf but it will at least make speccing some of these abilities viable.. otherwise they're useless aa abilities for even more useless heals

 this

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Old 08-25-2010, 07:56 AM   #22
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I fail to see a problem with the paladin class, perhaps you should come see what the heal parse islike on my guardian?

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Old 08-25-2010, 08:21 AM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

I fail to see a problem with the paladin class, perhaps you should come see what the heal parse islike on my guardian?

Equip a few stonewill and other ward prioc items items and they'll be very similar...

A guardian doesn't have a its entire class based around their healing ability. Paladins at last count have:

- 5 Pure Heals- 6 Spells which indirectly heal- 3 red adorns which effect our healing power- 16 AA abilities/Upgrades which effect healing in some way- For a total of 87 AA points invested in Healing if we so choose- Have an entire tree decidated soley towards healing

This does not include AAs which enhance healing such as recovery/casting speed/ potency etc.

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Old 08-26-2010, 02:47 AM   #24
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[email protected] wrote:

Dear SOE DEVs,

  Thanks for the Paladin changes! We were the worst at (fighter) DPS and now you took the one thing that balanced us with the other fighters and destroyed the class. Nice work.

Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy - "I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained," et cetera, et cetera..."Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum," et cetera, et cetera..."Memo bis punitor delicatum!"

It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You all have more AoEs. You all have dedicated AA that let you use a shield for both damage dealing and tanking, so you get nothing!

You lose! Good day sir!

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Old 08-26-2010, 09:06 PM   #25
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I dont' understand this nerf in PvE.  During raids I MT due to the fact that I can heal myself.  I don't get any mit buff or major stoneskins vs. all types of damage and my death prevent sucks.  I stay alive becuase I have (had) a ward worth something and decent heals that I could use when tucked into a corner.  Now I've had to relinquish my MT duties to someone a little more stout, that can up their defensive abilits to compensate for the lack of heals.

Thanks for ruining me.

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Old 08-27-2010, 02:05 PM   #26
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[email protected] wrote:

I fail to see a problem with the paladin class, perhaps you should come see what the heal parse islike on my guardian?

As soon as you take into account your stoneskin effects sure. I guarantee if you tracked the amount that stoneskin prevented it would be greater than any paladin heal amount, because its straight negation.

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Old 08-27-2010, 03:57 PM   #27
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Wasnuu again - silly people kept dieing prolonging encounter :/ - used my ward as often as possible. Used 3 healers in MT group, Defiler, Templar, Warden with MOnk who occasionally came in range with his avoidance; btw th 3 misses were goos on me not from the dragon. Unless it was blocked or stoneskined he ALWAYS hit.

used 2x Stonewill items

Few things to notice:

- Stonewall was TWICE as effective as paladin ward- Holy Avenger still sucks - Group heal does absolutly nothing still- 3x lay on hands doesn't equal my self buffed HP, and well below my raid buffed HP (32k I think?)- The "so-called" overpowered 10% heal on ALL damage only healed 38 hps.

Most of the the healing was done by 2 items and a crusader (not paladin only) AA choice; yes Paladins are definalty the "healing" tank.

DISCUSS

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Old 08-27-2010, 05:47 PM   #28
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9 heals per second on your group heal!?!!?!?!! OIVER POWERED NERF THATTTTTTTTTTTTTT /sarcasm

also... don't forget that faitful cry.. an actually excellent endline idea for offense and defense and hate gain has now been nerfed to 2/3s usefulness.. which is just unacceptable for a tso endline :/

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Old 08-27-2010, 06:50 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

9 heals per second on your group heal!?!!?!?!! OIVER POWERED NERF THATTTTTTTTTTTTTT /sarcasm

also... don't forget that faitful cry.. an actually excellent endline idea for offense and defense and hate gain has now been nerfed to 2/3s usefulness.. which is just unacceptable for a tso endline :/

I used it once to help save my coercer... he went from like 2% health to 16% health and then prompty died ... didn't use it again

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Old 08-28-2010, 04:56 PM   #30
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Nevermind, account cancelled.

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