EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > The Development Corner > Developer Roundtable
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-01-2012, 04:27 PM   #121
S_M_I_T_E

Loremaster
S_M_I_T_E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 724
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Allow it to be reforged? /shrug

It's kinda a bad idea to have this whole progression mechanic in place just to justify having gear with a lot of crit chance.

Maybe they'll make the 'power level' of Rygorr, EM, and HM gear much more exponential.

Some of the game of inches stays but every now and again you get an item drop that boost you like a shot of NOS.

Sounds like a prelude to an itemization modification scheme that should have the carrots in the right places for future content in game.

S_M_I_T_E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:32 PM   #122
Ortahr
Server: Guk
Guild: Nektulos Raid Alliance
Rank: Elite Main

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norath
Posts: 45
Default

I am glad this will pass through the test server 1st though.

Ort.

__________________
Ortahr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:34 PM   #123
LardLord

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,515
Default

[email protected] wrote:

So how do you propose they give you a gating mechanic?

Let me guess, you're one of those guys that thinks you should be able to bring the new guy in legendary gear into HM?

They didn't have a gating mechanic pre-TSO, and they aren't even using the current gating mechanics correctly, since all of Drunder HM shares the same crit avoidance/bonus buffs.  Plus, gating mechanics aside, gear makes so much more of a difference now than it did pre-TSO that gear checks will be more important than they were back then.

LardLord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:40 PM   #124
Hennyo

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 371
Default

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here, this does very little to make weaker players any stronger in harder content, and will do much of nothing to allow some rygorr geared raid to step into HM Drunder. First off, someone in almost full HM Drunder gear will be sitting around say 240 CB and potency, while someone in RyGorr and and some x2 gear or something may only be 140 CB and potency. The difference is a world apart and the DPS, healing, or even hate gain will be on a completely different level. Here is another example, you take some EM tank and they have 60k hp buffed in raid, and the guild looks at their tank and thinks, look how strong our tank is, then you take a stacked HM drunder tank and you see some of them buffed over 120k hp, its a completely different level. All of that isn't even to mention the crazy change in skill checks guilds have to make on this higher end content regardless of how much certain people think things were nerfed, the truth is, the nerfs are quite minor for the most part outside of blatant encounter bug fixing. The only zones I can think of, that really truly got gutted was EM drunder, only because the stuff originally was as hard as most of HM drunder is now. Also there are people sitting at 290, or even 300 CM without a single CM adorn, also people sitting at 360+ CC solo of all classes, without any CC adorns or taking any extra CC AA on purpose other than trying to open some other AA choice. Here is the truth, these changes do absolutely nothing at all to these guilds deep in HM drunder. Except make it easier for them to drag someone through the zone with slightly less gear. Now about all the people crying about shards its crazy, if you raid at all, they come like candy, I am sitting on over 700 of the blue shards myself, and I have changed out plenty of adorns over time, and I have over 400 of the white ones, they are not hard to get at all. Also if your short on plat, go SLR some harder heroic stuff in your raid gear, and bring in thousands of plat in a few hours for your 6 man group. This all said tho, I do have one concern that should be addressed, there are a number of EM drunder pieces that will be better than the HM pieces for some classes due to the lack of meaningful red and yellow slot adornment choices for mages and healers in helms and boots. With the change for example, the EM Drunder helm and boots will be better than the HM Kael helm and boots for many mages and priests, because the CB and potency, and base stats are higher. Quite frankly, the EM drunder pieces in those slots are trivial to get next to the HM kael ones, and gear progression should def be considered.
Hennyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #125
Ragnorrokk

Lord
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15
Default

the changes may be good depending on what they do with raiding gear crit mit value

some of the eow hm heroic loot is better stat wise then the hardmode raiding gear if you outright remove crit mit

hopefully this will not be the case, no way that a  heroic zone should have better gear then raid zones

Ragnorrokk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:43 PM   #126
slippery

Loremaster
slippery's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,272
Default

Most people are really have no idea what this changes.

Let me give you a hint.

Nothing. It doesn't change anything. If you couldn't kill it before you can't kill it now. There are still plenty of gear checks, starting with critical avoidance, and further in to the point that a lot of the encounters already have built in dps checks. Only a few have actual time limits before becoming impossible or getting a buff that makes it a lot harder, but most have an inate dps check that if you can't keep up with adds you aren't going to kill the encounter.

They aren't changing any of the encounters for that exact reason. Crit Mit at this point in the game was entirely redundant. It didn't mean anything. There was already gear checks that would cause you to fail, they didn't need this one at well. People already had the crit mit they needed so they didn't get crit on encounters, that is why they adorned for it.

All it does change is making it so you no longer waste a few adornment slots, and that people might actually try things instead of thinking, crap this arbitrary number is telling me I can't so I'm not even going to bother.

__________________
Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle
slippery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:44 PM   #127
SisterTheresa

The Vigilant
SisterTheresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,250
Default

Oh joy I get to see what I have to redo on my Guardian .. AGAIN.

__________________
SisterTheresa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:45 PM   #128
Hennyo

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 371
Default

Ragnorrokk wrote:

the changes may be good depending on what they do with raiding gear crit mit value

some of the eow hm heroic loot is better stat wise then the hardmode raiding gear if you outright remove crit mit

hopefully this will not be the case, no way that a  heroic zone should have better gear then raid zones

I am going to have to disagree with this, the truth is, HM EoW is harder than even most HM raids past the second named. If the content is that hard, why shouldn't it reward gear as such, and even then the HM EoW gear is all worse than HM drunder gear, so I see absolutely no issue with the gear.

Also by some off chance, that some certain piece is better than HM drunder gear for some particular slot on some particular class, GOOD, it adds some favor back to the game.

Hennyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:46 PM   #129
Lempo

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,179
Default

While all of these changes are taking place there is something that actually REALLY needs to be addressed.

HM zones should drop a Primal Velium Shard in each chest along with a Pure Primal, the reason that you made the ToFSx2 give Pure Primal was because of Red Slots on the drops, the drops in HM have Red and Yellow slots and either the Pure Primal need to be interchangeable for the Primals (NOT in the reverse though) or they need to start dropping in any zone that drops Red+Yellow slot equipment.

__________________
All actions have consequences and repercussions.



Somewhere in Norrath a guild is about to dissolve.
Lempo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:47 PM   #130
Felshades

Loremaster
Felshades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,887
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

So how do you propose they give you a gating mechanic?

Let me guess, you're one of those guys that thinks you should be able to bring the new guy in legendary gear into HM?

They didn't have a gating mechanic pre-TSO, and they aren't even using the current gating mechanics correctly, since all of Drunder HM shares the same crit avoidance/bonus buffs.  Plus, gating mechanics aside, gear makes so much more of a difference now than it did pre-TSO that gear checks will be more important than they were back then.

Yep!

You want to be able to take the guy in Legendary gear into HM.

Felshades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:53 PM   #131
LardLord

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,515
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

So how do you propose they give you a gating mechanic?

Let me guess, you're one of those guys that thinks you should be able to bring the new guy in legendary gear into HM?

They didn't have a gating mechanic pre-TSO, and they aren't even using the current gating mechanics correctly, since all of Drunder HM shares the same crit avoidance/bonus buffs.  Plus, gating mechanics aside, gear makes so much more of a difference now than it did pre-TSO that gear checks will be more important than they were back then.

Yep!

You want to be able to take the guy in Legendary gear into HM.

Ok, you got me.

LardLord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:54 PM   #132
Loendar

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 253
Default

I SO didn't see this coming - I'm .. stunned.

__________________
Loendar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:56 PM   #133
Anklesteiner

Loremaster
Anklesteiner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 77
Default

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Anklesteiner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:57 PM   #134
ObsidianNightmare

Loremaster
ObsidianNightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 155
Default

I'm with those that say if this does go through, the right thing to do is to refund shards that were used to purchase crit mit adorns.
ObsidianNightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:57 PM   #135
Onorem

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,155
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Silius wrote:

  • The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.

If we all log onto Test and try it out, will y'all double dog pinky swear to read the feedback, open discussion, and tweak where necessary?

Since I found out they have some special test feedback forum that isn't available to all and that's where they respond to feedback, I refuse to test a product I already pay to have work properly. Put it on test and patch it the next day. You don't want the feedback of the masses anyway.

__________________
_________________________________
"EQ2 is not a "free to play" game, so microtransactions are unlikely to ever have the "front seat" role that they have in F2P games" - SmokeJumper - 4/20/2010
Onorem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:59 PM   #136
Ragnorrokk

Lord
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15
Default

Hennyo wrote:

Ragnorrokk wrote:

the changes may be good depending on what they do with raiding gear crit mit value

some of the eow hm heroic loot is better stat wise then the hardmode raiding gear if you outright remove crit mit

hopefully this will not be the case, no way that a  heroic zone should have better gear then raid zones

I am going to have to disagree with this, the truth is, HM EoW is harder than even most HM raids past the second named. If the content is that hard, why shouldn't it reward gear as such, and even then the HM EoW gear is all worse than HM drunder gear, so I see absolutely no issue with the gear.

Also by some off chance, that some certain piece is better than HM drunder gear for some particular slot on some particular class, GOOD, it adds some favor back to the game.

I think its alot more difficult getting 24 people together that know what they are doing then 6 people.

*insults are not permitted on these forums*

Ragnorrokk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #137
Finora

Tester
Finora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,423
Default

I've thought Crit mit was a bad mechanic since it was introduced, I'm glad its going.

However, I have to wonder how it's all going to work out since so much content the past couple of years has been balanced (HAHAHAHA SMILEY ) around this mechanic being in game.

I'll have to see if I can get a fresh copy over to test_copy...

Finora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #138
Oink
Server: Blackburrow
Guild: Petitioned
Rank: Leader

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 90
Default

I can't get over this feeling the devs think this will finally fix dungeon finder.

Oink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #139
Yimway

Loremaster
Yimway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,707
Default

slippery wrote:

Most people are really have no idea what this changes.

Let me give you a hint.

Nothing. It doesn't change anything. If you couldn't kill it before you can't kill it now. There are still plenty of gear checks, starting with critical avoidance, and further in to the point that a lot of the encounters already have built in dps checks. Only a few have actual time limits before becoming impossible or getting a buff that makes it a lot harder, but most have an inate dps check that if you can't keep up with adds you aren't going to kill the encounter.

This really isn't true Slip.

You don't really have enough empathy with casual raid forces and the high degree of turnover they have and how long it takes them to gear up recruits.

Certainly this changes little for the top 100 guilds in game, but it does in fact change things for many others.

__________________
Yimway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:18 PM   #140
Felshades

Loremaster
Felshades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,887
Default

[email protected] wrote:

slippery wrote:

Most people are really have no idea what this changes.

Let me give you a hint.

Nothing. It doesn't change anything. If you couldn't kill it before you can't kill it now. There are still plenty of gear checks, starting with critical avoidance, and further in to the point that a lot of the encounters already have built in dps checks. Only a few have actual time limits before becoming impossible or getting a buff that makes it a lot harder, but most have an inate dps check that if you can't keep up with adds you aren't going to kill the encounter.

This really isn't true Slip.

You don't really have enough empathy with casual raid forces and the high degree of turnover they have and how long it takes them to gear up recruits.

Certainly this changes little for the top 100 guilds in game, but it does in fact change things for many others.

It doesn't change anything if you still need X amount of crit and now Y amount of HP to survive the aoes.

You'll still need gear before you can get into anything new.

And the guy back there saying there wasn't gating before TSO, there was. There wasn't hard modes, but you sure as hell wasn't taking a full Legendary raid into VP and clearing it.

Felshades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:20 PM   #141
Vieray

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 57
Default

Silius wrote:

Just to clarify some confusion.

  • Crit mit as a mechanic is being removed. 
  • NPC crit bonus was countered by crit mit and we are reducing crit bonus to 0 across the board. 
  • Critical avoidance is staying around. Critical avoidance is an NPCs way of contesting your chance to critically hit them. 
  • Replacing the adornments with HP is not to compensate for anything. Since the critical mitgiation stat is no longer useful we are converting to a stat that benefits all players.
  • The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.

Note: NPC crit bonus may be used in the future on a case by case bases and will be considered in the balance of the encounter so that crit mit is not required.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to PM me.

Well this doesn't really clarify very well.  CM is a way of artifically making fights harder...that is what it does.  By removing it you are changing the difficulty of every encounter that required CM.  So I don't get how the goal is to not change the difficulty of the encounters by changing the difficulty of the encounters.  Do you mean the difficulty of the fight if you already had the right amount of CM?  Are you going to be rebalacing every fight that had CM as a check?

Vieray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:24 PM   #142
Aoste

Loremaster
Aoste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
Default

i think it´s a nice idea, now we can do useful things like multiattack an other good runes on our gear SMILEY 

__________________
Aoste is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:25 PM   #143
Ragnorrokk

Lord
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15
Default

removing crit mit will allow you to adorn for more dps type stuff,increasing dps raid wide,making encounter less difficult

darrrr

Ragnorrokk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:28 PM   #144
Daalilama
Server: Nagafen
Guild: Illuminati
Rank: Senior Officer

Loremaster
Daalilama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 437
Default

I think the fears of casual or low end raid forces steam rolling into hm drunder zones dropping every mob when this goes live are way misplaced.  If your force didnt have the needed stats (cb/cc/pot/etc) before hand to drop a hm drunder named before hand then its extremely unlikely you will do so when the change go through.  HM mobs already have more bugs then we care to recite from double buff packages to doublecast and pathing issues to name a few.  Will the removal of crit mit alleviate some issues guilds have with gearing recruits out yes but not all of them.  We we see a possible smoother progression for low to medium raid forces maybe too early to tell until this hits live.  As for the crit mit adorns being turned into hp adorns if the devs give a small token number they will not be used at all anything under 2k would be a joke and a waste..while my raid force has not entered hm drunder yet aside from farming trash occasionally for drops...I do plan on going into them and test out the changes but doubt very strongly anything progression wise will come of it.

The best thing that can come from this change when it goes to test is to finally fix every bug hm names have (double cast/pathing/double buff packages) before this all goes live but highly doubt thats on the agenda aside from remove crit mit

Daalilama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:34 PM   #145
Yimway

Loremaster
Yimway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,707
Default

[email protected] wrote:

It doesn't change anything if you still need X amount of crit and now Y amount of HP to survive the aoes.

You'll still need gear before you can get into anything new.

And the guy back there saying there wasn't gating before TSO, there was. There wasn't hard modes, but you sure as hell wasn't taking a full Legendary raid into VP and clearing it.

We have far more options on how to build and buff a raid force to compensate for low HP, where being 70 points low on CM has a very predictable and repeatable result.

And as far as your legendary/VP comment, while maybe true, there was no issue dragging 3-4 legendary geared recruits thru the zone with your geared raid force.

__________________
Yimway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:35 PM   #146
Leovinus

Loremaster
Leovinus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 403
Default

Anklesteiner wrote:

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Maybe close to (ish, there's a huge HP difference), but not exactly, and they'll have next to no ability to actively contribute to the success of the raid.

Leovinus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:37 PM   #147
Anklesteiner

Loremaster
Anklesteiner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 77
Default

Leovinus wrote:

Anklesteiner wrote:

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Maybe close to (ish, there's a huge HP difference), but not exactly, and they'll have next to no ability to actively contribute to the success of the raid.

But they'll still be able to survive in the content. Which now means there is no survivablity check. Which now means anybody can come into any content and be able to survive. Thus removing any notion of progression.

Anklesteiner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:37 PM   #148
Qonamderlo

Lorekeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1
Default

I for one am not looking forward to this, i agree with we should be allowed to choose the stats to replace crit mit with because a lot of tanks have spent a lot of time and gems on getting their critmit where they need it for progression, and if you go and just replace it with some random values like HP or STR.... fail IMO. I don't see this going well in any way.

Qonamderlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:40 PM   #149
Yimway

Loremaster
Yimway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,707
Default

Anklesteiner wrote:

But they'll still be able to survive in the content. Which now means there is no survivablity check. Which now means anybody can come into any content and be able to survive. Thus removing any notion of progression.

Yes, it greatly increases the number of encounters undergeared recruits can 'tag along' with a geared raidforce on.

It by no means equates to sloppy casual raiders suddenly killing Drunder HM mobs.

All this does in terms of raiding allows guilds to progress a little bit faster and dealing with recruits a little bit easier.

__________________
Yimway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:44 PM   #150
Felshades

Loremaster
Felshades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,887
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It doesn't change anything if you still need X amount of crit and now Y amount of HP to survive the aoes.

You'll still need gear before you can get into anything new.

And the guy back there saying there wasn't gating before TSO, there was. There wasn't hard modes, but you sure as hell wasn't taking a full Legendary raid into VP and clearing it.

We have far more options on how to build and buff a raid force to compensate for low HP, where being 70 points low on CM has a very predictable and repeatable result.

And as far as your legendary/VP comment, while maybe true, there was no issue dragging 3-4 legendary geared recruits thru the zone with your geared raid force.

There still isn't. We do it quite often.

They die, we leave them dead, they're still eligible for loot.

Felshades is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:39 PM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.