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Old 11-22-2011, 01:12 PM   #1
Talathion
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In Your Opinion, List all Classes of Fighters sorted by DPS/Survivability.  (PUT YOUR LIST BELOW!)

DPS:Shadowknights - 1st

Monk - 2nd

Bruiser - 3rd

Berserker - 4th

Guardian - 5th

Paladin - 6th

Survivability:

Bruiser - 1st

Monk - 2nd

Guardian - 3rd

Paladin - 4th

Shadowknight - 5th

Berserker - 6th

Whats your list?   POST BELOW!

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:19 PM   #2
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Don't care. Tanks are boring classes, but I'd think Pally for the win in survival. They cans solo some pretty rough content. 

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:21 PM   #3
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Survivability : I'm not really sure that a bruiser would be my first pick, but seems close...zerk possibly last instead of sk though.

Edit: Guardian > Paladin easily.

Dps : Mostly agree with your list!

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:44 PM   #4
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yeah I actually do sorta agree, without heal crits paladins are lower now, and Shadowknights and berserkers are basicly the same, but shadowknights have a better defensive stance and alot more health (about 6000 more.)

I'll switch noah.

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:50 PM   #5
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

In Your Opinion, List all Classes of Fighters sorted by DPS/Survivability.  (PUT YOUR LIST BELOW!)

Survivability:

Shadowknight - 5th

Based on what AA spec?

My SK never dies. Of course, I have every life tap Mastered and buffed up with AA.

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Old 11-22-2011, 02:04 PM   #6
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I hate to say it, but I mostly agree with Talathion's current list.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:45 PM   #7
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Pally DPS > Guardian DPS

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Old 11-22-2011, 02:49 PM   #8
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Had a set of for fun duels with equally geard tanks a couple months ago, between a Pally, Monk and SK. Pally survived SK easiest and beat the Monk aswell, but the Monk took abit longer.

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Old 11-22-2011, 03:26 PM   #9
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Ran ISK with a monk last night and he had a Devastation Fist hit of 21 MILLION on one of the thrael gorr slaves o.O

So I am not to sure about the dps list....

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Old 11-22-2011, 07:41 PM   #10
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I assume the OP was talking about raid content.

Depending on the content, that list is very different.

Raid vs heroic vs solo vs pvp and the results are quite different.

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:45 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

I assume the OP was talking about raid content.

Depending on the content, that list is very different.

Raid vs heroic vs solo vs pvp and the results are quite different.

I mostly 1 shot everything solo, and with stonewill on any tank class it pretty much makes them invincible solo.

I am talking ONLY about Heroic/Raid content.

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:57 PM   #12
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For DPS i would say that Guard s definitely on the bottom, and for the rest ... i my guilds MT is a Pally and he can out dps me ... i think a lot depends on gear difference, player skill and encounter setup more then just the difference is the classes. As for raid Tank Survivability... i would build the list differently then you for several obviate reasons, but hay that is me...
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:24 PM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

For DPS i would say that Guard s definitely on the bottom, and for the rest ... i my guilds MT is a Pally and he can out dps me ... i think a lot depends on gear difference, player skill and encounter setup more then just the difference is the classes. As for raid Tank Survivability... i would build the list differently then you for several obviate reasons, but hay that is me...

MT has MT Buffs...  Thats the thing, if your guardian was MT he would out DPS the Paladin.

How would you build the list?

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Old 11-23-2011, 11:04 AM   #14
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The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots.  It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most.  There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.

Not sure why we even talk about Fighter DPS though since especially in raids it is minimal and nobody even cares.  T1 DPS destroys everybody by a huge amount and so everybody else is laughable in comparison and unimportant.  Hence one of the biggest problems with DoV and how it is killing this game.

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Old 11-23-2011, 01:00 PM   #15
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Survivability really depends on content.

HM content with strikethrough mobs would be brawlers but everything else in X4 would be Guard #1. Heroic content / solo I think SK/pally would top a brawler in survivability.

PvE duels Pally then monk then SK. (Never been beat by an SK in duels, Unless I let them)

PvE BGs Pally then SK then Monk, #1 Ranja LOL!

DPS as stated is irrelavent since its so low compared to T1, But on Raid I would put Guard at the lowest by a good margin and the rest of the fighters are within 20% of each other.

Highest raw threat/Hate generation SK then Pally then guard then Monk. (This is from having them all as my OTs and MTs in raid equally geared) and is more important than dps. SK with their dps and hate generation makes them the biggest pain in the butt to keep aggro off of when I MT, they lack when it comes to mem wipe mobs where the monk shines in quick snap aggro.

 The "Content" of mem wipe mobs and strikethrough mobs put brawlers up top for the moment in high end raiding IMHO. If both these mechanics were removed the brawler would slip to last in MT favorability.

Bruener wrote:

The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots. It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most. There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.

Brawler fully raid geared in offensive will have roughly 8% uncontested avoid, no strikethrough imuunity and very low mitigation you would rarely if ever have one offensive in raid unless its a farm mob/trash.

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Old 11-23-2011, 03:16 PM   #16
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Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

The list is probably pretty accurate with the idea that in raiding versus heroic you would probably swap a couple spots. It is also a toss up for the DPS chart on who DPS's the most. There are a lot of situations where a Brawler can easily out DPS a SK, even in Defensive.

Brawler fully raid geared in offensive will have roughly 8% uncontested avoid, no strikethrough imuunity and very low mitigation you would rarely if ever have one offensive in raid unless its a farm mob/trash.

You make it sound like that is much different than a Plate tank that goes fully offensive with DW or a 2h.  Really though some high end Bruiser OTs will tell you they actually parse higher in defensive anyway due to a certain riposte mechanic or something.

But DPS doesn't matter a whit in this game thanks to SOE nerfing the snot out of Fighters in relation to everybody else and buffing T1 through the roof in their DPS output.  Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS.  SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive....groups have to be built to give them tons of hate buffs and transfers no matter what further locking Fighters into a niche that is reliant on others to basically generate their agro for a huge chunk of it.

The current mechanics are terrible and hopefully are going to change soon after the Beastlord fiasco to get the game actually enjoyable in raiding again.

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Old 11-23-2011, 03:52 PM   #17
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I just wish fighter classes with most survivability werent also topping DPS and fighters with least survivability werent in the middle or buttom.

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Old 11-23-2011, 03:54 PM   #18
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Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.)  [Just adding Critical Healing would help)

Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]

Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)

Of course Zerker is below BOTH brawlers and SK, hehe due to flurry/strikethrough/spell damage/AAs that proc lots of damage on autoattack and the fact zerker hittrates have always been terrible (missing 50% of most of my attacks...)

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Old 11-23-2011, 04:19 PM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.)  [Just adding Critical Healing would help)

Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]

Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)

I wouldn't agree with any of that.

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Old 11-23-2011, 04:42 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.)  [Just adding Critical Healing would help)

Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]

Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)

I wouldn't agree with any of that.

Whynot?

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Old 11-23-2011, 05:14 PM   #21
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It was dumb to make it to where a fighter had to produce any amount of remotely high DPS in order to keep hate. That's stupid logic. Change that if anything. Comparing fighter to T1 DPS in any form is also dumb. Roll a sorcerer or Pred if your jealous. Tanks should be used to tank, survive and help everyone else survive...stick and keep them right above healers and below the rest and fix the hate mechanics in the game.

Bruener wrote:

  Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS. As it should be. Duh. SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive. lol. Duh again. 

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Old 11-23-2011, 06:04 PM   #22
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Elskidor wrote:

It was dumb to make it to where a fighter had to produce any amount of remotely high DPS in order to keep hate. That's stupid logic. Change that if anything. Comparing fighter to T1 DPS in any form is also dumb. Roll a sorcerer or Pred if your jealous. Tanks should be used to tank, survive and help everyone else survive...stick and keep them right above healers and below the rest and fix the hate mechanics in the game.

Bruener wrote:

  Nobody cares how much a fighter can DPS. As it should be. Duh. SOE has locked them into such a niche with lacking in that department in relation to T1 that all people care about is how well they can survive. lol. Duh again. 

You know what, you can keep saying this along with the other people with the blinders on.  But the fact is the game is dying and Fighters are even more annoyed with the current direction compared to any other classes.  In SF they weren't.  If you make the game un-fun...people quit.

Now throw in the fact that SOE is introducing a class that works outside of multiple types of play styles and excels in however they choose to play.  Do you know why they are making the class that way?  They are trying to bring people back to the game, and they know how they want people to play.

With current mechanics and the huge huge disparity in DPS all it does is make EQ2 a completely DPS-centric game.  Everything is built around maximizing DPS.  You bring the minimum to stay alive and you bring the max to DPS.  Min-max.  Throw in the fact that Fighters have to rely on other classes to do almost anything that is their job.  Survive - healers, check.  Agro - hate buffers/transfers, check.  DPS - buffs from everybody else, check (yes, check out a tanks parse...after auto attack it is a long ways down before you see the DPS actually generated from the Fighter).  Even the areas that are supposed to be our "niche" we are more reliant on other classes than anybody else in any other role.  This is unenjoyable.

Hey, if they can make it so a class can turn on DPS mode and top the DPS parse and than switch the button and be able to provide top utility....not sure why they can't make more classes enjoyable to play with that type of versatility.  More versatile always equals more enjoyable.

Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.

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Old 11-23-2011, 07:19 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Paladins should be Top Survability and Lowest DPS. (A little nerf to amends/increased Survability, more snaps.)  [Just adding Critical Healing would help)

Berserkers should be top DPS and lowest Survability. (most of our Stuff Either kills us, or has a HUGE penalty...) [Removing Heals/Replacing with High DPS Moves.]

Shadowknights should be mid button survability, right under zerker in DPS. (Lowering Heal amount a bit/adding critical healing would help.)

I wouldn't agree with any of that.

^^^ +1

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Old 11-23-2011, 07:21 PM   #24
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Bruener wrote:

Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.

Uhmmm holding aggro keeps the whole raid alive.

report back your uncontested avoid on plate tank in offense. Thanks. (Think youll find it about 30-35% higher than monk just sayin)

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Old 11-23-2011, 08:47 PM   #25
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Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Holding agro doesn't kill mobs - damage does.

Uhmmm holding aggro keeps the whole raid alive.

report back your uncontested avoid on plate tank in offense. Thanks. (Think youll find it about 30-35% higher than monk just sayin)

Its getting pretty annoying watching people post that don't have a clue on why this game is dying and contributing absolutely nothing to actual improve the health of the game.

A huge amount of agro is generated by DPS/utility classes.  You can throw a healer into a group as a tank and buff them the way the do on raids and they could hold agro.  Furthermore look at all the mechanics to wipe agro in this game.  SOE knows that the sustained agro isn't important and have instead created mechanics that force tanks to rely on snaps to get mobs back...something that is extremely annoying especially for the few tanks that have a low number of snaps.

The few of you still hanging on with this ideal that Fighters should be low parsing meat shields really need to wake up and realize that people do not enjoy that.  In a DPS centric game it severly limits the usefullness of the classes.  In a DPS centric game it means you contribute very very little.

Why is it you guys can't see that closing the DPS gaps will allow classes to focus more on their primary role and most likely enjoy the class more without being a drag on encounters.  In SF you had Fighters parsing well and you didn't have T1 off the chart....what did it do....had people play Fighters more, actively....and found a couple more Fighter slots in raids.

Oh, and my uncontested block Offensive is 0.

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Old 11-24-2011, 02:42 AM   #26
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My Fighter class KILLS myself/kills my power and Lowers my mitigation/avoidance to lower then scouts, but Berserker is still only 4th on DPS...

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Old 11-24-2011, 08:49 AM   #27
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This list is more in line as it is imo.

DPS

1.Shadowknight

2.Monk

3.Bruicer

4.Berserk

5.Paladin

6.Guardian

Survivability.

1.monk

2.Bruicer

3.Guardian

4.Paladin

5.Shadowknight

6.Berserk

Pally and shadowknight both have ups and downs when it comes to surviving. SK:s have the most health and better death save but the pally still wins of the two imo. Claim that it is the other way around since SK have a stone skin is abit meh to be honest since both SK and zerk have that. But they ONLY work on Physical damage wich makes it useless for most stuff since not to many aoe:s/DT are physical.

I dont agree one bit with tallons fantacy on how it should be. The fact still stand that you need to look at UT aswell of the tanks and count that into the balance curve.

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Old 11-24-2011, 11:43 AM   #28
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Max Health is one of Tanks Most important Stat, and Zerker still has no health buffs. :/

I'd gladly sac our crappy non-crit 1000 point heal for 1000-2000 more HP.

But we are also number 4 On the DPS list with lowest survivability....

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Old 11-24-2011, 12:21 PM   #29
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Max Health is one of Tanks Most important Stat, and Zerker still has no health buffs. :/

I'd gladly sac our crappy non-crit 1000 point heal for 1000-2000 more HP.

But we are also number 4 On the DPS list with lowest survivability....

As Netty said, you also have to consider UT into the equation, and I would push it one step further you have to consider agro generation as well.

The problem with DoV is they made Fighter DPS unimportant with the current DPS spread and they have also made agro hugely reliant on other classes (mostly because of the DPS spread).  They basically knocked those 2 reasons out of the equation when it comes to Fighter consideration.

Than the fact that in the area of UT the Fighters are pretty balanced across the board.  Some bring defensive buffs that are huge, some bring offensive buffs.  But the fact that UT is balanced it isn't even a consideration when you are looking at a Fighter for raids.

That leaves the very simple reason on why Brawlers and Guards own this xpac.  Survivability.  Their advantage on owning one shot AEs over the other classes puts them far above the other classes.

Its really easy to see what happened in DoV.  SOE made the areas that the other Fighters might have had advantages in unimportant and made a whole xpac that catered towards the benefits that 3 of the Fighters had.

The fix.....fix the DPS spread which in turn fixes part of the agro generation problem and control the amount of one shot capabilities that ALL mobs seem to have.

EDIT: Oh, and balance strike through so that the mechanic can actually be implemented properly.

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Old 11-24-2011, 12:36 PM   #30
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Paladin out DPS brawlers on AoE content and your zerker should be at the top with the SK and I'm glad you guys aren't the ones balancing class. You don't tanks on giving more survavibiliti to the lower DPS ones, No one care about the top dps tank of he is the worst tank.

As for Zerker they should be T1 DPS with a 2hander using leather and not a tanking class. Since when a berserker isn't a big mofo in a stance of rage trying to murder everything on his way regardless of beeing attacked ?

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