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Old 09-19-2010, 10:51 PM   #1
Kelypto

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So my main is a 90 dirge, leveling up a warden, already have a mage so I wanted to have a tank.  I leveled a zerker up to 81 but havent been too satisfied.  I feel more like a dps character than a tank.  Granted I leveled pretty quick, and I tried tanking TSO instances but have trouble holding agro with level 90 mentored players, decent gear, several masters.  I refuse to play SK because there are 14 million of them, and Pally seems a little goody-two-shoes for me in the RP aspect (in an RP guild).  So I rolled a Guard yesterday and locked at 22 with all MC gear, master taunts.  I plan being a heroic/instance tank...maybe raid later but no hard plans.

Then I read the forums and guards are pretty dissatisfied with their class, but oh well I'm going to try Guardian anyway.

So I have the usual questions.

AA?  I'm going down str line, put 1 point in the top of each warrior tree to get the extra abilities, recommendations?

Dual wield, 2 hander, 1h and shield....what and when?  Switching between dual wield and 2h for soloing, 1h and shield for groups.  Ever viable for 2h in a group?

Offensive or defensive stance, in what situations?

Thanks in advance!

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Old 09-20-2010, 05:23 AM   #2
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Probably not completely applicable for a Guardian, but if you were a Berserker I would say the following.

For your level, you probably want (from the Warrior tree):

STR 4-10STA 4-10INT 4-10, with the eventual goal (once you hit level 70) to get INT 8-10-2-2 (or INT 4-8-10-2, or any combination thereof).

Alternatively forego INT for AGI 4-10, but you generally won't have to worry about AoE encounters too much until higher level.

Also look into Battle Hardening in the Shadows Fighter line once you have enough AA invested. It's extremely useful for non-raid encounters.

Unless you desperately need the defense, which is not likely unless you don't keep up with your gear, I recommend rolling in Offensive stance, dual wielding. 2 Handers are not viable until level 81+, and unless you're getting your butt handed to you, you don't need a shield. Rolling in Defensive stance cripples your ability to actually hit the mob, which not only lowers your melee hit rate, but as a result also lowers your melee aggro --- and if you don't have aggro on the mob, you aren't tanking.

In the grand scheme of things if you want an easier time leveling up to 90, you might try betraying to Berserker instead of Guardian, as Berserkers pump out far more DPS, and therefore mobs will die faster. Although if you can hold out until GU58 hits (sometime in October) I would do so.

As far as the difference between Berserker and Guardian at 90, it pretty much comes down to Berserkers put out far more DPS, and have MUCH better AoE control, while Guardians probably put out more single-target aggro and have much better defense.

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Old 09-20-2010, 06:17 AM   #3
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Xalmat wrote:

As far as the difference between Berserker and Guardian at 90, it pretty much comes down to Berserkers put out far more DPS, and have MUCH better AoE control, while Guardians probably put out more single-target aggro and have much better defense.

In which fantasy world do guardians have "much better defense" than berserkers?  Unless you mean the utterly pointless stat "Defense", that is so far from the truth, it is utterly ridiculous. 

Berserkers are leagues ahead of guardians in terms of survivability, especially against multiple mobs.  Even vs single-target raid content, berserkers are tougher, but vs heroic mobs, there is no contest at all.  It is an entirely different game with a berserker.

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:40 PM   #4
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Way to stick up for your class...

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:47 PM   #5
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Xalmat wrote:

Way to stick up for your class...

Its called being honest.

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Old 09-21-2010, 08:58 PM   #6
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well guardians aa set up for leveling up a guardain should be get the int end line first thing, then get 4 10 in the str line (since you can crit on combat arts and only da on although)  Then go down the sta line 4 10, and put the remainder in Agi line.  Don't get belly smash, it is worthless.  After that get dump all your points into filling up the slaugherting line in the guard tree.  Basically get all the dps ablities for when soloing.

For grouping, the first thing you should do when you hit 81 is get improved moderate, and the new aggression line should help out as well.  Honestly it is not worth grouping as a guard with out improved moderate.

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Old 09-23-2010, 12:59 PM   #7
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How you aproach tanking as a guardian is completely dependent of your aa, level, and gear.  Most of the time your going to be in a DW + offensive build in order to have sufficient aggro control.  You'll macro switch to sheild for specific oh-crap moments.  2h isn't currently too common as finding a truely good 2hander that is better than common available DW weapons is going to be difficult for you.

My recomendation though is betray to zerker, cause unless you have a tank spot already solidified for you in a raid guild, you really have no reason to be playing the class.

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Old 09-24-2010, 01:39 PM   #8
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I don't know about the recent changes to 2H but it was basically broken before so everybody would DW. You know to keep the speed of the weapons the same so that is done.

I like my Guardian. The issues most are having is that while Guardians can do the job in most cases (multiple high DPS classes in our group screw things up) all other fighters can do it better, easier and faster. In essance it's not that Guardians were broken, it's that all other fighters were broken in terms of being overpowered and we were left in the same situation we started in.

If you like the Guardian, then by all means play one and enjoy it.

As for your AA's, you have to balance that for DPS vs defensive abilities or enchancements. Going DW as a Guardian, while it's what most do in easy situations, it really strips you of your ability to deal with incoming damage. I usually go DW but that is becasue the healer can easily deal with the small amount more damage that I'm taking. I have several ward procing items and life taps items so when I get hit more I actually heal myslef more so they usually don't even notice when I change.

The way you play your Guardian is a constant switching between DW, 1H w/ shield, offensive stance, no stance, defensive stance. I have all of these macroed or hot keyed and on harder Heroic instance I'll switch my setup 2-3 times a fight. Start with shield on the pull, switch to DW once some debuffs land, jump to offensive if agro is an issue, jump back to shield if a damage spike hits me... etc.

Playing a Guardian with even reasonably skilled/geared players in your group is not the "hit 3 blue AOE's with hate attached to them while stuffing a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in your mouth" situation. While I'll never say any class is hard to play, some are more intensive than others.

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Old 09-24-2010, 01:41 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

My recomendation though is betray to zerker, cause unless you have a tank spot already solidified for you in a raid guild, you really have no reason to be playing the class.

This!

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Old 09-24-2010, 04:56 PM   #10
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Kelypto wrote:

So my main is a 90 dirge, leveling up a warden, already have a mage so I wanted to have a tank.  I leveled a zerker up to 81 but havent been too satisfied.  I feel more like a dps character than a tank.  Granted I leveled pretty quick, and I tried tanking TSO instances but have trouble holding agro with level 90 mentored players, decent gear, several masters.  I refuse to play SK because there are 14 million of them, and Pally seems a little goody-two-shoes for me in the RP aspect (in an RP guild).  So I rolled a Guard yesterday and locked at 22 with all MC gear, master taunts.  I plan being a heroic/instance tank...maybe raid later but no hard plans.

Then I read the forums and guards are pretty dissatisfied with their class, but oh well I'm going to try Guardian anyway.

So I have the usual questions.

AA?  I'm going down str line, put 1 point in the top of each warrior tree to get the extra abilities, recommendations?

Dual wield, 2 hander, 1h and shield....what and when?  Switching between dual wield and 2h for soloing, 1h and shield for groups.  Ever viable for 2h in a group?

Offensive or defensive stance, in what situations?

Thanks in advance!

The best advice you can get is to not listen to the couple tools always complaining about their Guard class.  If you can play the class with an already weighted decision on the class from these guys you will do great and realize the real potential.

If you give in and start believing that for some reason Guards are behind the curve than you should stop playing the class and go with another because you will just become as deluded as them.

Good luck!!!

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Old 09-25-2010, 07:33 AM   #11
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Kelypto wrote:

So my main is a 90 dirge, leveling up a warden, already have a mage so I wanted to have a tank.  I leveled a zerker up to 81 but havent been too satisfied.  I feel more like a dps character than a tank.  Granted I leveled pretty quick, and I tried tanking TSO instances but have trouble holding agro with level 90 mentored players, decent gear, several masters.  I refuse to play SK because there are 14 million of them, and Pally seems a little goody-two-shoes for me in the RP aspect (in an RP guild).  So I rolled a Guard yesterday and locked at 22 with all MC gear, master taunts.  I plan being a heroic/instance tank...maybe raid later but no hard plans.

Then I read the forums and guards are pretty dissatisfied with their class, but oh well I'm going to try Guardian anyway.

So I have the usual questions.

AA?  I'm going down str line, put 1 point in the top of each warrior tree to get the extra abilities, recommendations?

Dual wield, 2 hander, 1h and shield....what and when?  Switching between dual wield and 2h for soloing, 1h and shield for groups.  Ever viable for 2h in a group?

Offensive or defensive stance, in what situations?

Thanks in advance!

If you're having trouble with agro on the Zerker then you will have the same issues on the Guardian. As for feeling like a DPS char, this will be the case on any tank you play, to hold hate you need to DPS. Guardians fall behind in this area so hate on the Guardian takes a little more work than other tanks.

Go for DPS AA's, start with the warrior str line to get crit up, then int line, then the slaughtering/hate lines in the Guardian tree. After that stick with DPS aa's and pick up the extra defense /utility that you want.

My honest opinion though if you're going to be mainly grouping and easy raiding would be to stick with the Berzerker. I'm a MT of a casual guild, we've progressed to Underfoot and are working our way through wing 2 and can kill all HM mobs outside of 4rune Theer and the Underfoot mobs we've not gotten to yet. I've been playing Guardian since DoF and MTing our raids and when Gu58 comes along which will save my Guardian masters if I decide to betray back to guardian I'll be betraying to Berzerker.

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Old 09-25-2010, 12:11 PM   #12
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This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=48451...post_id=5422239 **Trolling/Flaming - Removed**
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Old 09-29-2010, 12:56 PM   #13
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Bruener wrote:

If you give in and start believing that for some reason Guards are behind the curve than you should stop playing the class and go with another because you will just become as deluded as them.

Those who believe guardians are behind the curve are  not deluded. They have been for the last 2 expansions.

The recent changes have brought them closer in groups, though not up to the level of SKs. I play both. The SK needs much less effort, even with lower quality gear.

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Old 11-02-2010, 11:46 PM   #14
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Guards who betrayed to Zerkers are like born again Christians, obscenely obnoxious about they're better lives SMILEY.

Zerkers can take a punch better than any other class in the game period.  They have the same +mitigation aa options as a guard, except when they get hit they have better damage reduction and they have heal backs.  

The only thing a guard has over the zerker is a slightly higher shield effectiveness around 15% more, which translates to about a 1% to 1.5% block chance which further translates down to about a .5% difference on a block avoidance report in ACT.

Guards on paper are more defensive but the true mechanics of the game pretty much invalidate that advantage (except the shield effectiveness which really has little no to no impact).  In terms of raiding the +parry and + defensive advantages of the guard mean nothing as all the raid mobs have strike through.  In instance tanking it really doesn't matter either as most of the tanking there you'll be duel wielding.

Basically the biggest thing a plate tank does is take a hit and mitigate the damage, and guards suck at it compared to the zerkers.  

Guardian takes a 10k hit mitigates 75% of it and with the mythical buff thats up about half the time will do a damage reduction of 2.5% per minute, so 75% of 10000 is 2500, damage reduction is calculated in next at 2.5% of 2500, which means in total the guard takes 2438 damage of the 10k hit.

Zerker takes a 10k hit mitigates 75% and has a persistent 5% damage reduction up always from the mythical buff and has up adrenaline with is a 50% damage reduction buff thats up half the time.  So quick math 75% of a 10k hit is 2,500, damage reduction will be 30% (averaged over a minute) so thats 1750 damage taken.  Huge difference here, but wait theres more, the zerker with the ability to self heal has a 33% (43% with a red adorn) chance to heal an additional 500 or so HP, and then the zerker with aa can have a self ward up thats another 255 HP reduction.

So we have a guard who can take a 10k hit and at best takes 2375 damage, on average takes 2438 and at worst takes 2500.  We have a zerker who can take a 10k hit and at best takes 270 damage, on average takes 1750 and at worst takes the guards best at 2375 damage.   Now tell me which tank has the superior defense?  Stick with the zerker...  Until SOE devs wake up and figure out that the most "Defensive" tank in the game is the worst at what it's there for.

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Old 12-06-2010, 11:55 AM   #15
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This is the first MMO I have seen where no one recommends the actual tank class and say it sucks.

This is why my main problem with EQ2 has always been too many classes.

I wanted to tank, but I dont want to play some lame looking berserker, I want to play A TANK. You know, sword, shield, tanking.

I hate the flavor of the month classes in this and the way it has not been balanced for almost 6 years now the Guardians have been getting dissed constantly

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Old 12-09-2010, 07:23 AM   #16
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Guardian advice:

have a suger daddy always set you in the best armor in the game.  even mastercraft makes you the squshiest of plate classes yes the priest can take a hit almost as good if not better.

Max the AA under a hundred and lions and bears will eat you and you can't out run them

get a mount or the bears will eat you.

you have the worst DPS of any class other then the templer get leagandary or fabled weapons only.  the templer has better chance against the bears since he can heal

If you can't get these collect them with another toon.   its not pretty to try as a guardian the bears will eat you.

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Old 12-09-2010, 04:22 PM   #17
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Lets see every post says guards are behind the curve but the one person that don't play one and that ironicly plays the most OP class in the game. Hmm You decide who is not telling the truth. 

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Old 12-15-2010, 04:14 AM   #18
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guardians are fine imo. all the other tanks are op if you ask me. 90 zerk here btw.
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Old 12-29-2010, 12:43 AM   #19
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yeah guards are fine and yes it seems to be the same people complaining, some simple rules, don't party with other tanks that think they are the beast, tank for healers that can heal and not dps, gear a mix of battle ground gear and zone gear be vocal and instruct your group, learn mobs, zones how hard they hit what they hit with and how fast, its even better if you play with friends that know how to play their class and not be all hero like. "look at me i can get ago" big deal i play some other classes that can rip agro from the best of tanks, just because i can does not mean i should.

a good group will destroy everything no matter what class is tanking, alot here forget that there is more then one person in a group and think that we as guards should not have to do much to stay on top.

also there are good guards and bad guards juts like every other class.

yes i play on a pvp server as a guard i have a full set of t9 pvp gear and one piece of t8 pvp gear ear slot, pvp is just fine if your healer is healing and not dpsing,

with all that said all i can say is roll the class play it set it up to how you want it, and play hard

aa set ups play around you will find something that works for you, my aa set up looks weird but works for me and my groups,

at the end of the day everyone had different ideas on how their tanks are and what they are like with in a group situation,it does not mean it will be the same for you.

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Old 12-30-2010, 06:42 PM   #20
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If you like to fly around in the vintage Bi-plane over taking out the F-22 Raptor, then yes, guardians are fine. If you would rather glue popsicle sticks together as opposed to playing with your new i-pod, then u might just like playing guardian also.if you think pong is the most recent console game out you might like guardian. Guardian class is behind the curve in pvp and pve no question about it.

 with that said, you can make any class work but some take more time and effort then others.

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Old 12-30-2010, 09:07 PM   #21
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based on my extensive experience playing this game, I would say that Guardians are currently behind the curve as far as a tank class goes. They seem to have a lot of trouble in aoe situations, which is fairly important for heroic content since people expect you to pull more than one mob at a time. Finding a raid spot as a tank is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm guessing they will get some love next expansion, so it might be good to level one now.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:31 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:

Finding a raid spot as a tank is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm guessing they will get some love next expansion, so it might be good to level one now.

That's true regardless of the particular fighter class. When you look around at what raiding guilds are recruiting for, almost universally what they don't need are more fighters.

As for "love next expansion", I suspect Guardians have already gotten the bulk of their love in the previouis update. The remaining changes I've read about seem pretty minor, but then again, the other plate tanks are getting nothing (we all get the mitigation % nerf, of course). Even the idea of fixing the nerf to the Paladin's heals also seems to be off the table, or at least it's not even being discussed any longer.

They seem to be focusing a lot more on DPS classes this round and not so much specifically with tanks or healers (i.e.: Illusionists, Conjurors, etc. are supposed to be getting some significant love, and there will be the melee changes as well).

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Old 01-07-2011, 02:57 PM   #23
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We already got our love (dev attention), don't expect more with expansion.

Honestly with whats going on in beta, I'll be surprised if half of us are even here post expansion.

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Old 01-09-2011, 02:16 PM   #24
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Like someone already say Guardian are fine. (it's other fighter who need to have dps nerfed, like priest... the stats consolidation was really poorly done) I was berserker and i betrayed to Guardian, I m a tank, and i absolutly dont sacrifice any bit of tanking for a small increase of Dps, I m full defensive tank, something a berserker cant understand, and it's impressive how indestructible a real defensive guardian is in group, And in defensive stance i dont have any trouble to keep agro from people hitting 20 times harder than me, in fact they could hit 100 time harder i could even old aggro in def stance, most of time they have 2% of aggro. I really dont understand people thinking they NEED be in dps for hold aggro, it's totaly not true. (adornement +x hate gain help too, and all AA) For AA setup, Warrior Str 4-4-10 Agi 4-10-8-1 Sta 4-4-4-0-0-2 Wis 0-0-0-0-8 Int 8-4-4-1-8 Guardian 100pts the 4 endline and last man standing (absorb 7 hit every 4 min) Shadows general , 0-0-0-5-0-5-0-0 fighter : 5-0-0-0-0-5-1 Warrior : 0-0-0-5-0-5-1 Guardian : 0-5-0-0-5-5-1-1 Gear every item is defensive item, the legendary belt from rare name (Blet of resiliance) is a must have, stonewill, lifetap, mitigation increase... never take item with just hast, dps, or damage proc. Or at the end you ll lose some survivability, it's the tank path. The only real problem for a guardian is the power, when you run out of power you are dead. I m a group tank, no raid gear, i can solo name in the hole without trouble, some of them dont do me any damage, and i love that.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:17 AM   #25
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Lathain_Sarathai wrote:

Like someone already say Guardian are fine. (it's other fighter who need to have dps nerfed, like priest... the stats consolidation was really poorly done) I was berserker and i betrayed to Guardian, I m a tank, and i absolutly dont sacrifice any bit of tanking for a small increase of Dps, I m full defensive tank, something a berserker cant understand, and it's impressive how indestructible a real defensive guardian is in group, And in defensive stance i dont have any trouble to keep agro from people hitting 20 times harder than me, in fact they could hit 100 time harder i could even old aggro in def stance, most of time they have 2% of aggro. I really dont understand people thinking they NEED be in dps for hold aggro, it's totaly not true. (adornement +x hate gain help too, and all AA) For AA setup, Warrior Str 4-4-10 Agi 4-10-8-1 Sta 4-4-4-0-0-2 Wis 0-0-0-0-8 Int 8-4-4-1-8 Guardian 100pts the 4 endline and last man standing (absorb 7 hit every 4 min) Shadows general , 0-0-0-5-0-5-0-0 fighter : 5-0-0-0-0-5-1 Warrior : 0-0-0-5-0-5-1 Guardian : 0-5-0-0-5-5-1-1 Gear every item is defensive item, the legendary belt from rare name (Blet of resiliance) is a must have, stonewill, lifetap, mitigation increase... never take item with just hast, dps, or damage proc. Or at the end you ll lose some survivability, it's the tank path. The only real problem for a guardian is the power, when you run out of power you are dead. I m a group tank, no raid gear, i can solo name in the hole without trouble, some of them dont do me any damage, and i love that.

Sadly, while I don't disagree with your AA setup, I've come to the conclusion that, even if we could fill up every single AA, we'd still de 1/4 the class as the other plate tanks.  There is no AA combination that will change that.

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Old 01-20-2011, 11:08 PM   #26
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While i agree guardian is the badest tank class atm.

But i still think guardian is fine...

It's Other tanks, and Healer who need a serious nerf, i always feel so wrong than a full dps class like ranger or wizard dont do the double or x4 of the dps of a tank or a healer. It's just so wrong.

Every dps and  class should hit LOT harder than tank and healer. (dps>>>utility>>tanks>heals)

People who ask for tank and do better dps or close dps than a dps class ... it's so wrong.

So put a defensive stance with almost no dps at all (like guardian are atm), but very strong def

and an offensive stance, where you die if you are hit, but with serious dps. It should not be allowed to tank while in offensive stance AND doing good dps (like other tanks can do) Offensive stance should mean mob hit you every time !

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Old 01-23-2011, 09:23 AM   #27
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Im not going to argue about the berserkers survivability edge over the guard, or its better dps thanks to 100% ae. Nor am i going to dispute the sk's ridiculous dps advantage.

But my guard can tank anything they can tank.

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:53 AM   #28
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One thing that Guardians still have: We're still better than monks.

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:52 PM   #29
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As long as you have a group of friends that need a tank you should be fine.  While the Guardian class is currently the lowest on the plate tank scale, they are capable of tanking for group. You just may need your DPS classes to minimize going full bore DPS, especially at the beginning of encounters.

Solo a guardian can be quite painfull at times.  Where other tank classes can burn through higher con'd mobs and even take out heroics, guardians fall woefully short.

To compete you'll need to get the best equipment and grind AA. 

As far as AA's goes I have nothing extra to add.

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Old 12-11-2011, 09:17 PM   #30
Legion2024

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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 197
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So Guards have not been fixed yet are are still behind the ball game. In other words still not worth resubing again. Pitty Sony should get thier act together and sort out the classes. If they did i know 35players right now that would resub.

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