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Old 07-16-2010, 10:31 PM   #61
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first the gaurdian class is the only tank that can not heal themselves in combat, our mit should be far superior to th rest of the tanks along with our avoidance.. give us some in combat heals

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Old 07-16-2010, 10:49 PM   #62
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Got Your Back --- Blocks AoE's on the guardian, even when direct. i could dig that. i also like atan's idea about plant making guards immune to kb's one thing i've always felt is that aggro should always be the tanks main job. that said i think Improved Moderation could be changed to a group wide hate siphon. My 2copper Ry
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:04 PM   #63
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Been thinking some more about Cripple. I still think it's an ideal place to put a little hate and a useful buff/debuff if any changes are being made to it.

Sooo..

Add hate to all abilities in the line, a set amount per point which goes up with level.

Cripple itself.DebuffsAuto attack reduction (probably the most beneficial to all play styles and benefits the tank tanking if the Guardian isn't).Crit bonus reduction.Potency reduction.BuffsDamage reduction.Group Damage reduction - Probably my favorite and the one I can see being most usefull to groups/raids.~Stoneskin after every attack from the CA's in the tree.

Also I prefer the style of the ability currently where the it is in effect when teh abilities in the tree are used, it gives us more control of when it's up and when it's not. 5 Abilities, say 10 seconds duration per ability?

One thing that really needs to be addressed is that ALL other plate fighters have equal or near equal survivability to a Guardian so the benefits a Guardian has other than Survivability needs to be relatively equal to the benefits other tanks have be it via DPS/Hate/Utility.

What sort of time frame are we looking at for the complete changes, 1 month/2 months, finished at next expansion? Taking small steps is all well and good but these changes are needed soon. We where told almost 2 years ago we'd get small tweaks to hate and DPS as needed, when TSO launched, this is the first time any of those promises have materialised.

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Old 07-16-2010, 11:09 PM   #64
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Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

great idea for sphere.

  but unless cripple is upgraded to reduce "barrage" frontal attack damage it will and does nothing for survivability of "non tank" classes in front of the mob.

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Old 07-16-2010, 11:13 PM   #65
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Guardian thoughts:  Give me more auto attack damage/dps for threat - ALOT more than the crusader ability grants.  Continue to allow other plate tanks to shine in the AOE areas.  Im ok with that.  We all need a job to do but currently aoe threat + AoE DPS > single target threat + dps for faster killing which people enjoy more. 

1.) Recapture:

IF target is Epic leave as is.

IF target is solo/heroc forces target to target caster for X seconds (sort of an encounter version of cry of the warrior)

IF target is PVP target encounter is prevented from using positional (+/-) hate abilities or taunts for 15 seconds.  Tramua curable.

If Target is SK the SK immediately Harm Touches themselves.

2.) Cripple add a -% crit effect to it makeing the mob crit less hard, will stack with the ranger skill.

For each cripple ability active the guardian gets a "splurt" type hate gain OR just a flat out + threat component to any cripple ability based on # of AA in each individual skill (or in the entire tree?)

OR

DPS Solution  For each AA point in cripple the guardian recieves a base autto attack multiplier for increased auto attk damage/DPS that should roughly be double the crusader ability.

If target is a scout the scout is immediately snared for 200% and forced to moonwalk.

3.) Hold the Line will proc 500 trauma damage on every parry, block, and 100 trauma damage upon getting hit.  OR 1.8x per minute it will grant the guardian a chance to become immune to knockdowns  for 30 seconds.  Essentially a mutegenic burst type trauma ability.

PVP: If target is a crusader target will loose 1 level per proc

4.) Battle Hardening added to both the warrior and guardian tree in TSO abilities.

5.) Tactical Wisdom Allows the guardian to break cap on incoming physical damage.

PVP Raises the guardians mitigation to 80%.

6.) Guardians Will grants a 1.8% chance to proc a modern Claymore Version of reflect if shield equiped in secondary.

If PVP - All crusaders in the immediate vicinity (Ie logged into the game anywhere) soil themsleves and rust their armor causing 1d6 points of armor damage costing more than 2x the normal repair cost.

7.) Rallying Cry adds an additional +5 Potency to the grp in addition to current functioning.  All rezzes are + X more effective raidwide. 

8.) Stance: Armored: Effect added - Rock Iron Nerves.  Reduces all incoming damge by 10%.

9.) Assualt and Dragoon Spin: Blue Hate added.  Dragoon Spin Blue Hate based on # of AA in the skill.  If Lay Waste is taken then direct hate is added. Hate proc would be maybe 2x what the CA hits for.

10.) Bind Wound - useable in combat.

11.) Iron Will: Remove STA and add to defensive stance.  Change to a 500 hp regenerating ward.

12.) Executionaers Fury: 1% chance to Flurry per AA point spent up to 10%.

13.) Got your back: Worthless.  You would have to make this a no brainer to get me to reduce my DPS, Cripple points, or stalwarting points to even consider wasting any more points than bare minimum in this line.

14.) Unyielding Will: Permanent buff till it fires off once the 5 aa in enhanced version are spent OR make it so it cannot be cancelled once clicked by double clicking due to lag. 

15.) Concusion: +5 sec stifle component.

16.) Battle Cry: +5 Potency while active.

17.) Get rid of guardain class and replace us with Bheastlohrds.

Have to go - will call for more stars and the moon later.

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Old 07-16-2010, 11:19 PM   #66
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As far as the overall Guardian Condition, I agree with Atan and Soul_Dreamer. Listen to them IMO.

Guardians do not need any game changing reworks or updates. Just small  bumps in some key areas. Not all abilities are useful to every class. im sure many classes have abilities that have very limited usefulness. im ok with haveing some limited usefulness abilities if the overall picture is OK.

With that being said. Got Your Back (100% useless), Recapture(Usless in solo/group play), and Cripple (100% usless) fall under the bar. and need to be looked at.

Warrior STR Line end ability has been broken/unuseable for a long time. plz fix.

Mythical Buff, Guardian Sphere, Raid Buff, and TPS are in desperate need of re-visiting and could offer substantial increases in gameplay satisfaction.

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Old 07-16-2010, 11:28 PM   #67
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Xelgad,

There are some Guardians who are unable to post on EQ2 forums but who also have views on this. Link to thread where this thread is being discussed below. 

Clicky

Warrior STR end line ability has never been usefull and should be changed as  the Enchanter (power below 30%) ability was ages ago, reduce the benefits and have it always on.

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Old 07-17-2010, 12:03 AM   #68
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・Got your back - If it become raidwide, maybe useless if it is still fighters only...

I hope this : Block next AE for 1 triger (raidwide), 15sec , if you cast CA this spell is canceled,

・Cripple - I hope this : adding 10% crit damage reduction  for cripple line.

・Plant - Please make it can effect to Epic mobs, I don't use this spell for long time.

・Iron will - How worth this spell ? I hope + HP spell...not STA

・Intercept - I don't use this spell because when I use this , I sometimes die.

I hope this : Block next damage for 1 triger (for raid member), 15sec , if you cast CA this spell is canceled,

・Sentinel - I don't use this spell because when I use this , I sometimes die.

I think transfer damage spell need more love...

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Old 07-17-2010, 12:36 AM   #69
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Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian.

That sounds like an interesting idea, at least if that "mechanics change" it is supposed to be coupled with involves changing the mitigation curve, so only guardians would be able to push close to the cap vs 98th level raid bosses. 

A nerf, whether indirectly (e.g., the mitigation curve) or directly, of the survivability of non-guardian fighters is simply needed; otherwise, why bother with the added survivability and utility of a guardian?  You already get completely superior DPS and utility with a different tank class, plus equivalent (berserker and SK) or better (paladin) survivability--more than enough to do every single raid encounter currently in the game.

Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. 

One of the paladin EoF advancements permanently adds 35% Block Chance.  One of the berserker EoF AA's affords the berserker another death save.  Someone else already listed the rock-solid shadowknight EoF endline AA's, so I won't bother repeating them.

My point being, you can't imply that EoF endline abilities have to be relatively weak without be simultaneously arguing that aforementioned decidedly powerful SK, berserker, and paladin EoF AA's have to be nerfed.

The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.

A group-wide AE blocker without class restrictions with 60 sec reuse would be balanced.  Heck, even a group-only, healer-only AE blocker with 30 - 45 sec reuse would be useful.

On the other hand, anything that only protects fighters, raidwide or otherwise, is simply junk, especially given the required AA investment: Off-tanks are usually way beyond 14m if actually doing any off-tanking, so they won't be hit hard by any AE's no matter what, and the AE blocker in its current form doesn't do anything to help the one fighter who could actually use it: the MT.

To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target.

The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.

When can't a scout at the very least flank (and thus avoid ripostes) a raid boss?  Even Roehn Theer doesn't pose a problem in that regard.

Besides, are you aware how ripostes actually work these days? 

Back in KoS, a riposte was an actual extra auto-attack that occasionally triggered off a successful parry.  Mobs that riposted alot, such as Vilucidae in Lyceum of Abhorrence, were actually able to kill raid tanks because of their ripostes.

At some point after KoS, however, the underlying riposte mechanics changed dramatically, leaving us where we are today: raid bosses that auto-attack for 12K+ damage riposte for perhaps 1200 damage, a tiny fraction of the damage of an actual auto-attack, rendering ripostes--and thus, riposte immunity as well as riposte damage reduction--a complete joke.

At any rate, you have to keep in mind that you aren't just handing guardians this ability for free.  You are asking us to move points from either our survivability-boosting subtree (obviously not going to happen; we would have to give up Unyielding Will reuse reduction/heal increase, Guardian Sphere reuse reduction, ToS reuse reduction, and the Block endline) or our DPS subtree, which would cost us tremendous DPS and hate generation plus block our only feasible path to Reinforcement reuse reduction.

And for what?  Enhancement of our debuffs, which currently aren't doing much, if anything at all. 

Let's see:

 o Casting skill debuff?  Nope, you never, ever resist raid boss AE's or nukes.  Pointless AA number one.

 o Combat skill debuff?  Nope, raid bosses never, ever miss an attack.  Pointless AA number two.

 o DPS Modifier debuff?  I hope this one does something, but between a defiler, a mystic, a dirge, multiple other fighter classes, and who knows what other classes all debuffing DPS Modifier, I somehow figure raid bosses are already hitting the DPS Modifier debuff cap.  Pointless AA number three.

 o Duration increase of our Defense/Parry skill debuff.  Aside from being a nice, hard-hitting attack that itself doesn't miss, does it do anything?  I don't know.  The debuff component certainly doesn't do enough to prevent me from missing or being parried or blocked while it is running, so an AA to increase the duration by a few seconds isn't exactly the coolest thing since sliced bread.  Pointless AA number four.

In other words, whatever "not insignificant" damage component you are adding to the effectively meaningless maintainable riposte debuff would have to singlehandedly make up for the loss of 20 points moved out of the DPS tree and/or Enhance: Rescue and Enhance: Reinforcement.

I really, truly don't see that happening.

Please forget about the whole riposte notion and instead make Cripple a maintainable Potency debuff (still with lots of hate and damage), change our DPS Modifier debuff to an Auto-Attack Modifier debuff, change our casting skill debuff to a significant power drain or a dispel (i.e., buff remover), and finally, change our combat skill debuff to an AE Auto-Attack Chance debuff.

While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

What can I say? It sounds like a great idea.

Here's another two:

1) Change Plant to a toggleable, permanent buff with two effects: Roots Caster and Prevents Knockback.

2) Add Immunity to Charm, Mez, and/or Disarm to our mythical/Epic Repercussions buff proc.

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Old 07-17-2010, 01:38 AM   #70
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Xelgad wrote:

Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.

These two statements only serve to demonstrate exactly how far out of touch you are with actually playing the class.

I can certainly understand why you don't post more.

No guard is going to take and stick with got your back or cripple leaving them as you suggest.  Since mythical's are now defacto for any class in which someone plays as thier main, cripple as you well know is completely useless.

Got your back, would be so rarely situationally useful, that it would only maybe, in a drugged up halucination fantasy be placed on a mirror spec for a few select fights.

Other fighters don't need help surviving aoe abilities.  I mean yay, someone could stay in on a few mobs and avoid a curse penalty if a guard wasted a ton of aa into an ability that would be mildly useful on just a handful of raid scripts (but not remotely needed).  But in all seriousness, how do you envision a guard giving up aa needed for hate generation to get got your back?  Have you really looked at what is above it on the line they'd be putting aa into?

I understand in scope, these are EoF abilities as you say, but looking at SK 'eof' abilities, I still find them very lacking.

You should also consider changes to the slaughtering endline ability as 9% DA is hardly very relevant in today's game either.  The only truely relevant endline ability we have currently is block (and even then I'm forced to tank without a shield 95% of the time due to the wonderful status quot game mechanics), and with your proposed changes, for anyone who really understands the class, it remains the only relevant endline in the guardian tree.

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Old 07-17-2010, 01:38 AM   #71
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Xelgad wrote:

More feedback on this would be welcomed.

Go ahead and change it if you want... but no guard is going to drop the stalwarting and slaughtering lines for Got Your Back and Cripple, so honestly you're wasting your time with that. Now if you made Cripple so that it disarms mobs/players for 10 seconds... now you're talkin.

The Stone Sphere change is alright... but a lot more needs to be done to make the guardian relevant in today's game. For starters, put the warrior tree double attack AA back to 60% with 10AA. This wouldn't do much for raid equipped guards, as they already have a ton of double attack, and would greatly help the guard in entry level gear trying to gear up. As the guardian gets better gear and more double attack, the 60% becomes less useful since you can't double attack more than 100% of the time anyway. And yea, I know this would buff zerkers too, but there was no good reason to nerf that AA line and it should be restored.

Also, the mythical epic weapon should be buffed so that it's not terrible. 10% permanent damage reduction would be a start.

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Old 07-17-2010, 01:49 AM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

1.) Recapture:

If Target is SK the SK immediately Harm Touches themselves.

2.) Cripple

If target is a scout the scout is immediatle snared for 200% and forced to moon.

3.) Hold the Line will proc 500 trauma damage on every parry, block, and 100 trauma damage upon getting hit.  OR 1.8x per minute it will grant the guardian a chance to become immune to knockdowns  for 30 seconds.  Essentially a mutegenic burst type trauma ability.

PVP: If target is a crusader target will loose 1 level per proc

6.) Guardians Wil

If PVP - All crusaders in the immediate vicinity (Ie logged into the game anywhere) soil themsleves and rust their armor causing 1d6 points of armor damage costing more than 2x the normal repair cost.

Make it so.

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Old 07-17-2010, 02:50 AM   #73
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In my opinion, the whole Crippling line should be scrapped for a Taunting line. The whole line is terrible and even if you make the endline marginally better no one is ever going to use it, because you have to waste too many points. Here's my idea for a reworked line that people might actually use:

Enhance Goading Gesture: 17% additional chance to proc the secondary effect per point, 5 points put it on a different timer than Provoke.

Enhance Provoke: Decrease resistability 5% and increase threat 10% per point.

Enhance Shout: Decrease resistability 5% and increase threat 10% per point.

Enhance Taunting Blow: move this AA out of the Slaughtering line and replace it with increased damage on another CA.

Enhance Recapture: Decrease Hate position of all nonfighters with target encounter.

End Line - "Inflamatory Comments": Add Heat damage to Provoke and Shout.

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Old 07-17-2010, 03:17 AM   #74
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rwiz wrote:

・Got your back - If it become raidwide, maybe useless if it is still fighters only...

I hope this : Block next AE for 1 triger (raidwide), 15sec , if you cast CA this spell is canceled,

・Cripple - I hope this : adding 10% crit damage reduction  for cripple line.

・Plant - Please make it can effect to Epic mobs, I don't use this spell for long time.

・Iron will - How worth this spell ? I hope + HP spell...not STA

・Intercept - I don't use this spell because when I use this , I sometimes die.

I hope this : Block next damage for 1 triger (for raid member), 15sec , if you cast CA this spell is canceled,

・Sentinel - I don't use this spell because when I use this , I sometimes die.

I think transfer damage spell need more love...

When you need to use this ability on another tank (or individual) cast ToS first then cast this ability - free stone skins to your target.

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Old 07-17-2010, 04:30 AM   #75
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Main trouble of Guardian is no any good, i mean rly good things for group or for raid or for themselvs. No rly cool antispike abilities like adrenaline or mass deadsaves of SK(dunno correct name on eng), no prevents of magical damage(this type of damage is main killer and damage dealer in SF raids) physical damage now is not so high but magical damage is rly strong, but guardian have nothing to prevent it.

Guardian have no usefull bufs, Sk have great buffs, Pala have cool buffs too, Berserker have rly nice buffs and great survival abillites. But guard have only useless baffs and no deadsaves, no working rly working antispikes.

For example, when guard tanking Evil Roen theer he needs 3 healer, when berserker tank same mob, he needs only 2.

So guardian = monk, this class is dead for raids but i hope u will make him better =)

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Old 07-17-2010, 04:44 AM   #76
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personally I think my guardian is ok as is, 250 AA and good group set up and I do just fine, I may not be able to room pull or dps like other tanks but I don't care about all that, only suggestions I can make is improve taunt range as sometimes when I am a foot away from mob and rooted nothing I throw at the mob will get the agro back including rescue I have to move in closer to get the agro, and secondly the thing which I feel will improve me no end and cause me a lot less stress is to fix tab targeting, too often I am fighting a mob and another walks in and I try to tab to it and it either tabs to something not even in range and on screen or just [Removed for Content] right refuses to change target no matter how many times I press it, and am unable to mouse over to mob as my screen is loaded up with particle effects(even on balanced), so please, pretty please with sugar on top, fix tab targeting

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Old 07-17-2010, 04:51 AM   #77
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Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.

Change GYB to group members AE avoidance and you get my vote.

To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.Numbers provided from last run against Toxx: She riposted only 6 times, always against me. I missed one return and the other 5 made 7K dammage (yeah !) .Against Rohen Theer, I haven't seen any riposte for the last 2 downs.As many already said, Riposte became a non event after it got revamped.

While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

You got my vote on this one

I'm very much in favor of a suggestion made by Frogweiser on EQ2F. We are all forced to DW in order to generate enough aggro. But, we all agree that this lowers our survivability a lot (just as an example, I blocked 157 out of 321 slashes from last RT). He proposed "something that grants a HUGE amount of agro for tanking with a shield to suffice the major dps cut we have."Like a shield stance where our auto attack dps would generate 40% more aggro for example.

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Old 07-17-2010, 05:05 AM   #78
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Netty wrote:

Like some of the ideas. But dont really think guards need a huge boost in dps. UT/hate is the way to go and some more dps.

I am sorry, but as you said later in this post you quit playing your Guard. You didnt stop playing it because you couldnt survive the encounters, you quit because the other tanks could survive everything as well and bring so much more DPS to the raids. I dont know if you switched to another tank class yourself or just let somebody have the MT spot, but I am almost 100% certain that you or the raid leader let this happen because the other three options can live as well and bring so much more DPS. We are not going to get back into raids in large numbers unless the DPS gap is closed. I am not asking to be equal to the offensive tanks, but when you have SKs that are doing 70-80k parses (WW ranking guilds) or 35-40k (good guild) why bother putting in the Guardian at 35k (WW ranking guilds) or 20K (good guilds) ? Something major broken when you have such a HUGE gap in what we can parse as tanks. No tanks should be able to double anothers DPS weather you are an "offensive" tank or not. I can see a 5K difference, but its really silly at this point. No raid leader worth a spit is going to give up that much DPS just to have a Guard in the raid. < EDIT: These numbers are being generated on single target mobs and AE fights alike. They can do massive damage regardless of how many mobs are in front of them.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:17 AM   #79
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I must say i fully agree with the dps gap needing to shrink a bit. While I have not been replaced, i know those who have and all to other tanks cuz they can parse higher and survive just the same. Its true about got your back, while its a nice change and might help in certain situations. Its not gonna ultimately make us all switch to it. As for changing the warrior sta tree back to 60 dbl attack. Its not needed, as said before we are already the class with the highest DA in AAs. I only have 4 points in this and sit at 140 DA in raid. So its not needed. Cripple line still needs some thought, Maybe some things to add would be weapon bonus for guards maybe zerks too to make us more in line with crusaders. As well as some shield block so we can have more survivability.

Off Topic:

A change that would be nice for all classes would be to allow us to spend our points where we want in trees and for example, 22 are needed per line in the RoK tree. Make it where only 22 is needed and 4 is not needed to advance to the next one in the line.

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Old 07-17-2010, 05:24 AM   #80
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[email protected] wrote:

I must say i fully agree with the dps gap needing to shrink a bit. While I have not been replaced, i know those who have and all to other tanks cuz they can parse higher and survive just the same. Its true about got your back, while its a nice change and might help in certain situations. Its not gonna ultimately make us all switch to it. As for changing the warrior sta tree back to 60 dbl attack. Its not needed, as said before we are already the class with the highest DA in AAs. I only have 4 points in this and sit at 140 DA in raid. So its not needed. Cripple line still needs some thought, Maybe some things to add would be weapon bonus for guards maybe zerks too to make us more in line with crusaders. As well as some shield block so we can have more survivability.

 

 

Off Topic:

A change that would be nice for all classes would be to allow us to spend our points where we want in trees and for example, 22 are needed per line in the RoK tree. Make it where only 22 is needed and 4 is not needed to advance to the next one in the line.

Yes Shinta, I am lucky in that regard as well. I am not in a WW ranking guild anymore, but that was my choice. I have offers to go and hang out with a few of them, but I am chilling with my friends in a casual guild at least until the summer is over. I am speaking for the guys who have been replaced for the DPS reasons and the Guards who havnt carved out some sort of a name for themselves in the game. The guys who want to start raiding, but have no real chance as things stand now.
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Old 07-17-2010, 05:32 AM   #81
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Salarionn wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I must say i fully agree with the dps gap needing to shrink a bit. While I have not been replaced, i know those who have and all to other tanks cuz they can parse higher and survive just the same. Its true about got your back, while its a nice change and might help in certain situations. Its not gonna ultimately make us all switch to it. As for changing the warrior sta tree back to 60 dbl attack. Its not needed, as said before we are already the class with the highest DA in AAs. I only have 4 points in this and sit at 140 DA in raid. So its not needed. Cripple line still needs some thought, Maybe some things to add would be weapon bonus for guards maybe zerks too to make us more in line with crusaders. As well as some shield block so we can have more survivability.

Off Topic:

A change that would be nice for all classes would be to allow us to spend our points where we want in trees and for example, 22 are needed per line in the RoK tree. Make it where only 22 is needed and 4 is not needed to advance to the next one in the line.

Yes Shinta, I am lucky in that regard as well. I am not in a WW ranking guild anymore, but that was my choice. I have offers to go and hang out with a few of them, but I am chilling with my friends in a casual guild at least until the summer is over. I am speaking for the guys who have been replaced for the DPS reasons and the Guards who havnt carved out some sort of a name for themselves in the game. The guys who want to start raiding, but have no real chance as things stand now.

lol its Rhita, not Shinta lol.

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Old 07-17-2010, 06:21 AM   #82
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Just had a thought for our ability Recapture. Since its possibly the worst possible lvl 80 spell in game, what if it were changed to 24 hate positions and something like a 30k threat taunt. Then it would truly be recapture but for the guardian. Could extend the recast to like 5 minutes or longer. Then it would be useful if we died or something and we could recapture the mob when were ready.

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Old 07-17-2010, 07:17 AM   #83
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Xelgad wrote:

Thank you all for the feedback so far!Just to address one general point, we're trying to take a more subtle approach in adjusting this class. Instead of making one or two drastic changes, we're going for maybe a dozen smaller fixes and upgrades that result in a more balanced and better working Guardian. These fixes and upgrades will go beyond just utility. In that sense, it's good to hear that these changes won't immediately make Guardians desirable for every raid, since we certainly don't want utility to be the driving force that gets Guardians into raids. Furthermore, please remember that “Got Your Back” and “Cripple” are still Echoes of Faydwer Advancements and need to be balanced as such. The fact that some of you like the “Got Your Back” change while others still prefer other options is a sign that the proposed change is in the realm of balance.To clarify, the current plan for the Cripple debuff is a 75% reduction to target's riposte damage. While we're aware that Guardians are immune to riposte damage at end game, we still see a situational use for the debuff in cases where it's dangerous or impossible for scouts and healers to position behind the target. The added damage component is not insignificant and has a very low chance to miss. More feedback on this would be welcomed.While some of your other suggestions may make it in game, we especially like the idea to upgrade Guardian Sphere, since it could be a great way to provide some defensive utility that would be useful in heroic content. The tentative plan is to change Guardian Sphere into a group buff that grants all non-fighters a 50% (at master) chance to stoneskin. The Guardian will have a 25% (at master) chance to stoneskin him or herself. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds, the radius has been increased to 35 meters, the duration maxes out at 20 seconds and there is no limit on the number of stoneskins that can trigger during the duration.

There are mixed responses concerning your proposed changes to Got Your Back and Cripple because some people accept that any change, any acknowledgement of the need for change in Guardian abilities is good while others realise that, because these are AA abilities, a small boost wont change the strength of the class at all.

The new proposed Got Your Back would be of no use to heroic tanks and of extremely limited use to raid tanks.  An ability that aids the survivability of the people who need it least (Non tanking tanks) is not going to get used and so while this is a boost to the ability it is not a boost to Guardians as no-one in their right mind is likely to take it with or without the boost.

Cripple is similar.  Riposte is pathetic, once upon a time Riposte was a defining characteristic for some raids mobs, nowadays?  Less so.  Riposte damage is pretty much negligible and if someone is in front of a mob they will not be killed by ripostes.  They will be killed by the frontal portion of their AOE or simply by AoE auto-attack.  Riposte has been replaced by Flurry and AoE auto-attack in mob design.  New, shinier mechanics.  This ability would still be bypassed for the extra DPS from the slaughtering line unless, that is, the damage component on Cripple grants more DPS than all the AAs in Slaughtering combined.  Our debuffs simply aren't good enough to bother buffing.  10% effectiveness added to 0 effectiveness is still zero.

I'd support all of the Crippling AAs being changed to Taunt enhancement AAs.  But they'd need to be fairly big bonuses to make them attractive when compared against Slaughtering.

I don't understand why Got Your Back even exists.  Other tanks have their own survivability tools to stay alive, I don't see why any tank should need my help with it, particularly something as common as AoEs.  If a tank cannot survive an AoE, well, it's probably best they stay dead, they're a liability and I can't save them every time.  The same kinda applies to Recapture really.  Why does the poorest tank in terms of aggro generation have a way of helping other tanks?  It makes no sense, if anyone will need help capturing aggro it's the Guardian, but they get to waste their time buffing people who don't need buffing.

And remember; if you wish to increase Guardian attractiveness by buffing their survivability to give them back an advantage in this region then mob design needs to make the decision to field a Guard a viable one.  Mobs simply don't hit hard enough to encorage the DPS vs Survivability trade-off.

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Old 07-17-2010, 10:47 AM   #84
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As Guardian Sphere: Like this change.

Other stuff -

  • Dragoon's Reflexes :

Please make this ability immune to strikethrough. Also consider lets us use CAs (not just taunts) to bring this in-line with other tanks similar abilities, it would also mean people *might* consider actually taking the AAs to make it last for longer because atm they are pointless.

  • Got Your Back :

Two sides to this really it has a very short reuse time so. If its a raid-wide AE avoid (non-direct) for tanks it might need a larger radius) - if as some people want were to block AEs that are direct it can't be raid-wide (for tanks) and be on such a short reuse timer.

  • Crippling Line :

This whole line sucks even if cripple was a maintained with a dot - what guard is gonna take it?

  • Unyielding Will :

Having to 2nd guess if we are gonna fall over sucks - bring it in line with other tanks buffs and make it maintained.

  • Iron Will :

This ability is a joke with stat caps on STA as they are, it would be better to make it a straight HP buff.

  • Recapture :

Hmm it had it's uses (AoJ) but its still pretty sucky - the dev's have said they won't allow any tank to have a +23 hate position ability because that would mean they would not be able to use 23 hate position drop mobs anymore.

  • Call of shielding :

As people have pointed out making this more defensive will not really help that much - maybe change it and add some accuracy, strikethough and weapon damage bonus (not necessarily all of those).

As there is a big problem in us and jim-jam tanks. If they make raid bosses hit so hard (mitigation) that you need a super-defensive tank to be able to stay alive then a jim-jam tank is gonna get one-shotted. Only way they could balace that would be to bring back The Reparm f**k - and I can't see a lot of people liking that.

Keeping along the defensive lines would be nice if we have some percantage shielding VS spells - most of the time now its AEs we have to worry about not getting hit. Maybe consider changing some of our abilties to help us resist non-melee stuff this would help give us some much needed survivability (at least to bring us in line with paladins). And before anyone tries the role-play card go and read-up on barbarians in 1st edition ADnD (not sure about later editions as past my time).

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Old 07-17-2010, 11:11 AM   #85
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Looking at the ideas and there are two seperate problems being talked about, one is general gameplay that seems wrong (too much need to AOE, AOE attacks being far too powerful compared to single target attacks, thoughtless mechanics like unyeilding will that give a deathsave sometime in the future automatically without any need to really time anything).

The other problem that I think the thread is supposed to fix seems a fundemental one to me, all tanks now have equal survivability, that's a fact since all tanks can survive the content thrown at them, as the tank being alive or dead is a binary result no more survivability will help the guardian unless you nerf the other tanks (returning the design to pre-RoK), which was changed for a good reason.

As that's a fact then the other two things that the guardian must do is generate threat and generate DPS, no one is going to take a tank along to a raid who generates say 70k of threat via taunts if they can take a tank that generates 70k of threat via DPS.  The simple solution is to make the guardian DPS equal to other tanks, even though I think that sucks for game design as we have high survivability (like the other tanks), so we then become the uber classes compared to others in PVP especially breaking BGs.

Personally I think our threat needs to be increased, our DPS is probably fine, but then other classes need a lot of their DPS swapped for just threat to balance things, that then makes the class work in PVP and PVE at the same time (the more survivability we get the less DPS we can do).

Then there is the last problem, why bother taking a tank who does the same DPS to a single target when another class can match or exceed this and also do much more AOE.  I think here we need a role, something we excel at to make up for this and I think this discussion is working on it, personally I think the AOE power needs to be toned down (I suggest damage spread amoungst mobs) to balance it out though or otherwise fundementally people will always want the AOE tank over the more group protective tank.

The group stone shield sounds good, the more I think about the cripple debuff the more though I think its utterly useless, and I'm betting its the least most taken endline ability for a [Removed for Content] good reason, basically the whole line is poor and the differences they make to already weak effects do not get people excited about using them.n  Right now I don't notice my survivability jump if I get a RUIN applied to a mob, it probably does jump but by an unnoticable value, so 10% extra of that isn't going to be much.

Please give us instead more class flavour, change it into a mostly shield line with debuff fillers and make the end line ability something cool and fun like a spell reflect, that would make using it something to look forward to and to work on getting right in every encounter.

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Old 07-17-2010, 11:52 AM   #86
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[email protected] wrote:

I must say i fully agree with the dps gap needing to shrink a bit. While I have not been replaced, i know those who have and all to other tanks cuz they can parse higher and survive just the same. Its true about got your back, while its a nice change and might help in certain situations. Its not gonna ultimately make us all switch to it. As for changing the warrior sta tree back to 60 dbl attack. Its not needed, as said before we are already the class with the highest DA in AAs. I only have 4 points in this and sit at 140 DA in raid. So its not needed. Cripple line still needs some thought, Maybe some things to add would be weapon bonus for guards maybe zerks too to make us more in line with crusaders. As well as some shield block so we can have more survivability.

That's because you are getting at least 72% from your raid gear and 19% from AAs... sitting at 91% self buffed, at least. You must not have read my post. As I said, restoring the warrior double attack to 60% helps level 15-89 warriors tank, and warriors with entry-level legendary (or even treasured/crafted/etc) gear, which is what Xelgad is focusing on. You are right, it would do nothing for raid tanks with some of the best gear in the game. As your gear gets better, and the buffs from people around you get better, the DA line becomes less effective so as to not be overpowered. Basically you start freeing up AAs by getting better gear.

If you want to talk about something that's not needed, let's talk about 10 seconds of KB immunity. Standing in a corner = immune to KB.

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Old 07-17-2010, 11:54 AM   #87
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Howdy,

Thanks for taking the time and opening the door to the headache that is our class (And our complaints).

It's understood Guardian's are defensive tanks with (very(painfully))low dps. However, if we're going to be min-maxing our class let's see some of the maxing. We need threat(for tanking) and some powerful group saves.

I rolled my first toon as a Guard in part because of the description on character create page. "anchor of any group of adventurers".."Protection for their allies".."Combining durable armor with an impressive array of defense skills".

I would like to see my defense skills actually impress.

A buff to Guardian Sphere that doesn't kill me is much appreciated and starts the ball rolling for balance in my group.

Intercept cause 25% extra incoming damage to your group. That's not saving your allies that's a team debuff.

Hold the Line: Grant it a chance(40%?) to AE threat engaged mobs. This does not affect our dps and would help considerably in heroic content.

Reversal: Provide a chance(20-25%) to trigger on Shield Bash.

Iron Will: Give an identical WIS boost. Spells hurt.

Call of Shielding: Give this a buff when you're in different stances. If I'm not taking the hits that require Defensive stance I would like to provide a helping hand to my allies.

Recapture: Give this poor lvl 80 spell some heroic content some love. Adding a detaunt for non fighters would add to both raid and heroic utility. (without adding to the caster's threat)

Unyielding Will got a lot of love in SF. I would suggest tweaking it to remove penalty for not dying. Not a revamp but a little addition.

Cripple: Don't kid yourself this is still a laughable AA waste. 

Got Your Back is not helpful fighter only. Again..the class description says protection for their Allies(plural). Not just the guys who already can take hits.

I would like to see the buffs change slightly with my stance to better suit whatever my role is in group/raid.

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Old 07-17-2010, 12:05 PM   #88
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Khurghan wrote:

  • Iron Will :

This ability is a joke with stat caps on STA as they are, it would be better to make it a straight HP buff.

I forgot about that one. That is one spell I refuse to spend money upgrading passed adept 1.

Got Your Back must be a group-wide AoE blocker, or it will never be used.

Cripple must be something else entirely, or it will never be used.

Guards must be doing shadowknight/zerker/paladin level of DPS or they are still inferior, or guards need more survivability and mobs have to be revamped to hit harder, or other plate tanks' defense has to be nerfed. Either way, I don't care anymore. But if none of this happens, guards will remain an out-dated redundant class.

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Old 07-17-2010, 12:07 PM   #89
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Xelgad wrote:

Greetings Guardians!First off, allow me say that we understand that the class is being outshined at the moment, and we’re working on it. It's going to take more than just one change to get Guardians back to working as a strong class again. I'm not going into details yet, but we do have a mechanics change in the works that will at least help a bit to distinguish Guardians as a more defensive tank. Even with that, the class is currently lacking in other areas, including threat generation and utility.It's utility that we want to focus this thread on. We want to bring Guardian utility up to the level that the other fighters bring to a group or raid. We have three tentative changes that will be going to test soon:

  1. Got Your Back will become raidwide.
  2. Cripple will become a maintainable debuff with a damage component.
  3. Call of Shielding will also increase the health of the raid. The level 87 version at master will amount to around 1,000 hit points.

We’re looking for feedback on these ideas, and we’re open to boosting Guardian utility even a bit further, especially in heroic content. I want to emphasize that we’re not trying to turn Guardians into plate-wearing Bards or anything of the sort. However, I do want to try to focus this thread on the utility aspect of the class.

Changing the end lines, is good, but you need to change the lines them self, so people will use them.  Most of the talents in these two lines, are not needed or wanted. The Guardian lines, have been taken the same way since RoK, this should point to some of the issues in the lines not being as powerful as needed.   some examples, would be...Enhance Moderation - Remove, the lowering hate gain on it, and make it add a threat transfer.Enhance Sentry Watch - Remove the reuse speed, and lower the damage the Guardian takes, by a lot.  As many have said, you hit this and an AE goes off (or your in a group with people who are morons and take frontal's) you are dead.  Dead tank = dead group most of the time.The debuff improvements in the Cripple line, really are not that important right now.  With the people I group with, witch are not t9 raid geared, no fight lasts more than 30 seconds for trash.  On bosses, they are still not all that worth while, since even with out a prefect group, they do not add much that will effect the fight.  In raids, if in a OT or DPS role they do not add in much survivability to the group or MT. Maybe add in longer duration on the ability's in the line.  Then change Cripple to -  Increases effectiveness of all ability's in the line by X%, Adds a small hate gains to each ability in the line, and adds an Interrupt to all the ability's in the line.  This might get the utility you are looking for.  An AE block is really not needed, much at this point of the game.  In groups, you never have a second fighter, unless you are just off messing around.  In raids, you can set up a group, to have three or four of them for the MT.  Something like Grave Sac, would be nice for Guardians, since its rank in the 30's can out AE hate gain a lvl 90 guardian.Changes to these lines, can bring in the Utility that you are looking for.

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Old 07-17-2010, 12:42 PM   #90
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meltedman wrote:

Iron Will: Give an identical WIS boost. Spells hurt.

We need shielding not increases in our resists.

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