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Old 10-27-2015, 03:28 AM   #1
Bloodguts

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I'm a big fan of gating content behind other content. Whether by clearing content in a certain order, completing a certain quest timeline, or by farming gear from previous content before going into the next one.

I was a big fan of Critical Mitigation, and to some degree Critical Chance Gating like in ToV. During Altar of Malice, we received the news that the new gating mechanic for content would be by resists. It was an easy choice for the devs seeing as all pieces of jewelry have resists on them, and you can program AoEs and abilities by bosses to require a certain amount of resists to check for before hitting to know whether it will outright kill the person, do almost unhealable amounts of damage or just the right amount to heal through.

Now, I won't say resist gating is wrong or bad in any way, but it causes some issues that can affect many raiding guilds and group compositions, and this is where it starts getting tricky.

You don't actually have to farm new resist gear to reach the resist checkpoint of an encounter. There are many ways to bypass having to gear an entire raid for a specific encounter OR many ways to block an entire raid from reaching said encounter.

Here is my list of problems with resist gating:

1. There are many ways to buff an entire raid with resists outside of gear. This can be used in favor of a raid force to bypass having to farm gear. These are:
a. Bard raid buffs. Mage group buffs. Defiler group resist buff. Fury temp buffs you can alternate to maintain the amount of resists you require. And any other type of class buffs that increases resists for a group/raid or individually.
b. There are many obscure items, adornments and amenities that the developers may have forgotten about that can be used to increase resists.
Essentially, with the ways a raid force can get the necessary amounts resists without having to farm the gear.
c. Resist Banners. Not being able to use Resist Banners for contested content is also a detriment if you're relying on this.
d. AAs that increase Resists

2. Now, the biggest problem with this system is depending on classes to reach the necessary resists. If a bard or a mage is unable to show up for a raid night, and you have no replacements, resist gating will block this raid from being able to raid that night.

3. If a Bard or Mage or any of these classes that have group resist buffs, were to die, then this would essentially cause a domino effect of death. Resists would drop dramatically below the check and cause the healers in those groups unable to heal the increase in incoming damage. In a normal raid situation this wouldn't be a problem, because you can easily rez the people that die, but when you're relying on the buffs from these people, you have to be flawless or it's over.

4. Shamans, Shamans, Shamans. The introduction of the resist gating mechanic came with the change of small but quick damage over time AoEs to big unhealable hits every 6s AoEs. This caused Clerics and Druids to fall on the wayside and caused Shamans to rule once again on the healing meters. This is advantageous to raid groups who have 4 or more Shamans at their disposal, because some encounters are scripted in such a way that if you're under the Resist Check you take increased damage, but having enough Shamans with Ethereals balances that since they are able to heal through that increased damage. If you don't have the shamans at your disposals, you are at a disadvantage and forced to farm more gear.

These problems affect negatively any raid force. But it affects a casual raid force more than a progression raid force, since they sometimes don't have the necessary classes, the gear or the knowledge of these obscure items/adorns/buffs that allow them to exceed the resist checks.

Now, for solutions to this problem:

1. Eliminate resist from every source except from gear. Being able to bypass content by creative thinking is always going to happen. Eliminate the source and you will force players to farm up the gear necessary before they can tackle the end-game encounters.

2. Use another gating system that doesn't rely on resists. Critical Mitigation was a big hit for me, even though some people didn't enjoy it. It was an item Level (iLevel) mechanic that wasn't very popular, but now with resist gating we have the same iLevel mechanic with a different name but now people are okay with and accept it. Critical Chance was alright but you were still able to bypass it to some degree by similar methods as you would bypass resists checks.

3. Use a Green Adornment like the one for Wing 3 in ToV. The more you level it within a entry-level raid zone, it will allow you to unlock a buff or stats that will allow you to survive in the next tier raid zone. Once you max out the xp you can get from Tier 1 raid zones, you then unlock Tier 2 raid zone xp to help you open Tier 3 raid zone. So on and so forth.

4. Consolidate gear drops from Heroics/Raid zones. There are a lot of useless stuff that drops from different encounters from Raids and Heroics that are just simply transmute/salvaging fodder. These are items that have useless procs and have really low desirability from any player base. Have a clear-cut itemization design with resists in mind and have those items drop with the right amount, from the correct zones with the correct % to have these items drop. This way we'd have a defined timeframe of when any given raid force is expected to progress while still maintaining individual choices for gearing. Example: Instead of having 8 wrists able to drop from a raid tier, 2 of them being undesirable and 6 of them desired, then just eliminate those 2 undesired ones and spread the other 6 accordingly. Everyone will be happy and you can still gear the raid within a ample amount of time.

No one likes putting in the hard work on a really hard encounter just to see [Pants of Abundant Nothingness] or [Jewel of Crappy Transmutation] drop.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:50 AM   #2
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I'll add a 5th.
Put a massive %healing received debuff on every player persistent through all zones and tune damage to match. The game shifts from OHKO to tug-of-war type balance that can be overcome with additional fighters/priests. Add a DPS check when necessary to 'fix' fighter/priest based progression.

Essentially what worked since launch until mid DoV when effective HPS dwarfed player hp pools.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:03 AM   #3
Mermut

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Debuffing healing perceived is a horribly unfun mechanic for healers.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:12 AM   #4
Leeroy

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Not only no, but HE double toothpicks NO. Raiding's difficult enough on healers (we're to blame for all fails) without this nonsense.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:27 AM   #5
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I find it amusing that two priests are against what is arguably the largest healer-buff of all time. I find it equally amusing in that if I phrased it differently, e.g. increase player health by 500~1000% and keep damage the same, both players would be for it.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:33 AM   #6
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There is a significant difference in turning a 50k heal into a 25k heal (with a 50% heal debuff, for example) then increasing player hit points by 50%. The biggest being that with the heal debuff requires the healer to get 2x the stat boost to get the same heal boost as it would with the hit point increase.
Also having to do more healing is much more satisfying then then seeing your existing efforts crippled.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:02 AM   #7
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You're equating numbers between an linear and exponential curve. An 80% healing received debuff (1/5th) would equate to a 400% hp increase (1/5th). Ironically healers would be slightly favored in the %debuff option for numerous mechanical reasons (heal-threat for one), but I digress.
I'll never understand your demographic.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:24 AM   #8
Therein

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Personally, I wish splash damage was substantial enough to keep healers busy without making fights into ranged fights. Resist gates are working currently for multiple reasons. One being that resist gear isn't hard to come by. Many buffs have lost their relevance in the current game, so resist buffs staying current isn't exactly a BAD thing. Putting survival requirements from character to character can be used keep straight burning through all scripts from being possible again, although currently, you don't really sacrifice very much to get required resists. While I miss being able to do that, it got old doing it for multiple expansions.

There have been far worse mechanics in the past that really made raiding not fun like critical mitigation. Currently there are a few mobs that need absurd hp values for everyone in raid, I hate sacrificing dps to gain more survival, but since it is only a few mobs, it doesn't take the fun out of it, it just becomes something you have to do for those fights.

Item level shouldn't be what dictates a guilds progression. Skill, coordination and individual talent should. The gear is a tool. Something to make the script quicker or easier. Properly structured groups, use of group buffs and debuffs should play a much larger role than it does at this point in the game, but that is a whole different issue that needs to be addressed somewhere in the near future.

EQ/EQ2 have been through many different forms of raiding. From heavy AE turn and burn, to super easy mobs with a massive bottle neck followed by loot pinatas, to super complex scripts to the point of breaking guilds. If there is a method, they will try it. The main downside to this current set up is the lack of sacrifice of dps for the use of resist gear. Other than that, I don't see any major issues as of why it is bad over all.

If you start putting in static heal debuffs etc, then they have to individually tune each healing class around that mechanic and you are looking at all sorts of complications.
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Old 10-27-2015, 03:19 PM   #9
Anastaise

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Resist gating is just as bad as Critical Mitigation gating was in the past. I was really surprised that the lesson wasn't learned the first time from the disaster that was crit mit. Just stack the raid with shamans and most other healers are SOL. Going to huge spike damage instead of heavy consistent damage just makes shamans necessary and most any other healer not as effective. Their wards can compensate for lack of resists/gear, but other healers don't have that luxury and most raid forces rely on that crutch. The FAR better mechanic was having Crit chance checks on mobs and instead of dying a horrible death without a shaman - you merely did less damage to the mob. Then all they need is a damage check and everyone is still able to do their role effectively.

I am pretty disappointed that the new expansion is going to be more of the same fail resist check mechanic.
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Old 10-27-2015, 04:22 PM   #10
Arco

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Am I raiding the same content as everyone else...? Cuz the current resist system doesn't work like what I remember from Crit Mit...

Resists are a curved damage reduction mechanic... If people say you need 190k, that doesn't mean you'll get one shot if you're only at 189... the farther you get from 190k, the dmg would simply increase until it is unhealable. If you barely missed Crit Mit, death was pretty much guaranteed.

Yes, shamans have an advantage this expac.... last expac was Druids... doesn't mean the other healers can't also do the job... Channelers and Templars are also really strong this expac... My guild has a Fury that has solo healed the majority of the raid content. The few exceptions are the fights where the raid is boosting the hp a lot, to avoid the one shots.

Biggest problem I've seen from this system, is the scout scan ability telling you a lower recommended HP amount than the fight needs.

What I would prefer to see changed, is all the mobs only needing you to focus on one resist.... I would prefer to see fights where multiple resists are needed, not just a mob doing trivial noxious and big arcane damage...
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:08 PM   #11
Anastaise

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It's a combination of HP and Resist checks that make Shamans the healer du jour. It is also a problem w/ DPS always trying to get away with using less resists/HP gear so they can use all of their fun clickies and DPS gear and they can get away with that far more often with a Shaman.
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Old 10-27-2015, 05:38 PM   #12
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Resist system is fine... people not surviving because they need to ditch dps for HP would be a sign of the mob's stats needs to be tweaked, not that the resist mechanic if flawed. (though some fights requiring you to boost ur hp isn't bad)

I think a fight where the raid has a large %hp debuff and the name pulses low AE dmg quickly would be more fun than simply surviving a big AE hit every ~6s and having to heal back to 100% before the next AE.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:58 PM   #13
Neiloch

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I like it because players can actually effect it. Crit mit was a terrible, heavy handed pass/fail system. Didn't have high enough crit mit? too bad, so sad, beat it.

With resists you have play with items and abilities.You would think resist gating is flawed if you were going under the assumption it is supposed to be a pure gear check of equipment resists. It isn't. As a matter of fact this system is more controllable than DPS or HPS/HP checks without being the terrible pass/fail of crit mit.

Gninja stated long ago people with 'diverse' rosters should be able to have an advantage over those without, afaik this philosophy hasn't changed.

Also the splits in resist check tiers don't allow for players starting in one tier to completely leap frog to the next with a few key classes or items. Even if all sacrifices are made to meet the resist check 'earlier' than intended you now have offense/defense short comings. Sure people are meeting the check but the DPS classes just stowed some of their BiS DPS items and the priests are wearing damage procs with randoms wearing 'tank' items with no intention of tanking.

If people are just starting out and they can leap from T1 to T3 with some 'creative' item management thats no good, but if they can squeeze out every little bit to go from T1.5 to T2 and make it work, good for them.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:41 PM   #14
quisling

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LOL...actually, I'm to blame for all :
Annoying mobs, bad loot drops, raid/group wipes, global warming and lack of world peace...
.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:36 AM   #15
Anunnaki

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I don't mind resist gating. What I find to be a terrible mechanic is the ridiculous amount of HP needed for some fights. And that the only way to get your health up enough is to stack 24 health charms in a raid. Stacking health charms is a stupid mechanic and it needs to be killed.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:42 AM   #16
Anunnaki

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The major problem with this solution is that it makes it progressively more difficult to get apps. Sure, top 10 guilds dont have to worry about this, but for everyone else this is a major block for getting new, or returning, members, especially once you get farther into the content.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:16 AM   #17
Bloodguts

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So why give the guilds with the resources of getting in more players/classes into their raid have an advantage over those that can't?

Filling 24 man raid isn't easy, specially in this game where population keeps dwindling down and down. If a guild is down a Bard or 2 and they don't have anyone to replace them, they have no other choice than to cancel the raid? I don't see how that's fair for them if they're relying on those class buffs to be able to raid.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:23 AM   #18
Bloodguts

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I agree. It was just a suggestion

If they were to implement such a thing again, then they could just do what they did with the Green Adorn from Wing 3 ToV or the Siren's Grotto myth hat, which is to give you a click buff you can put on a friend so they can join you in the meantime as they get their xp up on the green adorn.

I know it's a ***** to deal with something like this, but just putting it out there because it's something that was used and it worked.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:42 AM   #19
Anunnaki

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I *may* have seen something similar to the SG helm in beta...
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:24 AM   #20
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I dunno. My raid guild on Maj'Dul got several new apps after the merger, so we went and spent one night doing a lightning round of farming lower level content than we usually do, which gears up the younglings fast.
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Old 10-28-2015, 04:03 AM   #21
Anunnaki

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Which is good and all if you only have to spend one night on it. If there are raid pieces that require farming to level to advance (like was suggested) itll take longer than a night of being a loot mop.
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Old 10-29-2015, 04:39 AM   #22
Loran

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Eh, resists gating is being handled far better than CMit ever was, the real issue is that pot/CB affect heals and because of that mob damage and player health pools have skyrocketed over the last few expansions. And the only real issue with the health inflation that we've seen is that mob auto-attacks have grown to the point that anything but a fighter is almost one-shotted when a mid-fight add turns around and hits them.

Except of course for the tug-of-war that is healing right now with dots and things because heals are affected by CB/Pot.
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