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Old 08-28-2011, 09:07 AM   #1
slippery

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I think the game is killing itself with it's need for tiered progression.

We are creating too much forced progression, and stepping things up at too fast a pace. Really the only thing it is accomplishing is making a very small quantity of the content useful to any given set of players. Progression used to be by expansion. Think about KoS, or EoF. Two of the best expansions (imo). What did they have? Tons of content, and it was all relevant. In EoF people still even raided KoS content because it was fun and useful (and not blocked by things like needing too many healers to cure curse, so you could do it with smaller raids, unlike SF)

We've created so many steps for progression now that not only is it seemingly impossible to actually get itemization right (as a side not, you forgot your own itemization scheme and the new necks on rare loot tables have a really excessive amount of crit chance, along with too much everything) it also gives people 3 zones to do that are worth it. There is a decent amount of content, but instead of it all being useful (ala even SF instances) you have like 3 zones worth running. This breaks down to both raid and group content. You get to a point in group content, you run Kael zones. You get the loot you need, you run Drunder zones, and now have no reason at all to run Kael zones.

But what about the rare named you say. What about it? The loot they drop is better than hm raid gear, it shouldn't be. It's absurd. More than anything all it has accomplished is to make players angry. It was something you forced yourself in to doing to try to get people back in to the zones because of the problems you created.

The same is true of raids, except for the gimmick that is war runes. Not counting plane of War, there is a lot of raid content. 12 zones, 6 easy 6 hard. There are only ever 3 worth running, plus trying to progress a little in to something else. It's so bad right now that there is really no point in raiding. There is all this content and I might as well not raid it at all. The only reason to do the 3 launch zones is basically to gear up recruits and alts. Sullons HM got some tweaks and should be reasonably doable. Great. All this content and I have one zone to raid that doesn't feel like a waste of time. That's of course assuming I have Brawlers so we don't just get mowed over in the zone.

Half the problem is itemization. You've gone with this loot generator and strict loot scheme for what loot is supposed to have (that even with a script you can't seem to get right, it makes no sense how you script something and still fail to be consistent). Give people options and let them choose. This item has more CB and Potency, but less everything else. This item has more cast/reuse/mod/ma but less cb pot. This item has a lot of extra crit but less everything else. This item gives you an extra war rune slot but less blue stats. Unfortunately for the player base and the health of the game as long as loot is scripted you'll never get this right.

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:18 AM   #2
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The EoW EM instance should be dropping Ry'Gorr level gear to allow players a way to save shards and craft drunder gear.  The gear drops in that zone at that quality were thoroughly unnecessary.

A completely different set of Instance/Heroic gear is thoroughly unnecessary.  If casuals want uber gear there's an avenue for that: raiding.

Also, SOE seems oblivious on how to tune their content.  Never seen an MMORPG where so many nerfs were needed to make normal-mode heroics duable by players in (comparatively speaking) Ry'Gorr gear.

On the flip side, casuals expect to zone into an instance on day 1 and clear the whole thing.  Raiders don't clear raid zones in a day, if you're an instance hero you should expect somewhat similar progression, just on a smaller scale.

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:42 AM   #3
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While I appreciate the idea behind the changes - making challenges reward good loot - they have gone way too far. Easy rare nameds in DoV instances dropping overtuned loot en masse, almost every piece of loot in EoW has very high stats.

Although the final Boss mob in EoW is harder than anything you'll find in the other Drunder instances the loot shouldn't be THAT good. A tad better than Drunder level would be fair enough.

Ry'Gorr level would be stupid, though. I don't see any group in Ry'Gorr armor killing Decorin.

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Old 08-28-2011, 12:52 PM   #4
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Agreed with everything that has been said. Good post.

Many people will be leaving this game shortly if nothing changes for raiders. You can take that to you and believe it or you can ignore it and see it happen day by day.

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Old 08-28-2011, 02:57 PM   #5
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slippery wrote:

The same is true of raids, except for the gimmick that is war runes. Not counting plane of War, there is a lot of raid content. 12 zones, 6 easy 6 hard. There are only ever 3 worth running, plus trying to progress a little in to something else. It's so bad right now that there is really no point in raiding. There is all this content and I might as well not raid it at all. The only reason to do the 3 launch zones is basically to gear up recruits and alts. Sullons HM got some tweaks and should be reasonably doable. Great. All this content and I have one zone to raid that doesn't feel like a waste of time. That's of course assuming I have Brawlers so we don't just get mowed over in the zone.

I don't see the point of even doing full Easy and Challenge mode zones after launch. There was really no place to put Drunder EM gear on the tables and it just adds an extra level of unfun to the Challenge modes. You go through most of the easymode content and already see all the bosses, Once you get to HM it's the same thing except 2-3 frustration things added to the same strat as the easy mode.

My perfect vision of Drunder raiding would have been, Combine all three zones into one massive zone and treat it as Underfoot Depths. Each tower has the 1-2 easy starter bosses with the Zek siblings having their own Hardmode Trigger, You could of even dedicated Vallon's tower to all Hardmode content or something.

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Old 08-28-2011, 03:01 PM   #6
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Corydonn wrote:

slippery wrote:

I don't see the point of even doing full Easy and Challenge mode zones after launch. There was really no place to put Drunder EM gear on the tables and it just adds an extra level of unfun to the Challenge modes. You go through most of the easymode content and already see all the bosses, Once you get to HM it's the same thing except 2-3 frustration things added to the same strat as the easy mode.

My perfect vision of Drunder raiding would have been, Combine all three zones into one massive zone and treat it as Underfoot Depths. Each tower has the 1-2 easy starter bosses with the Zek siblings having their own Hardmode Trigger, You could of even dedicated Vallon's tower to all Hardmode content or something.

This is the most spot on post i have seen regarding drunder.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:58 PM   #7
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I agree pretty much 100% with the OP.  It's lame how you only ever have about 3 zones which you are capable of clearing that reward you with upgrades. 

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Old 08-28-2011, 06:02 PM   #8
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Agreed. Definitely no reason to raid anymore. SOE has effectively killed the reason to raid. SMILEY

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Old 08-28-2011, 06:35 PM   #9
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couldn't agree more. 

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #10
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Well said. This whole expansion has just been one failure after another. I know I'm not by myself, but the only thing that gets me to log on, is to talk to the friend I've made, and PL their alts. I'm logging into other games, and having a lot more fun as of late.

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Old 08-28-2011, 08:29 PM   #11
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Agree completely with the OP.This expansion truely is a complete disaster.

Yes, there are lots of instance zones, but only about 3 are ever relavent at one time, both raiding and heroic stuff.

The sterile progression locks it into this pattern.

Players have brought this up starting in Beta, but as per usual, are just completely ignored.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:08 PM   #12
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Seems like we saw this coming at FF in 2010.

It's the hair, I tried to warn everyone.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:22 PM   #13
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OP hit the nail on the head. Your game isn't even fun anymore. BBL going to upgrade my HM gear by running Pools.

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Old 08-29-2011, 12:31 AM   #14
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Luhai wrote:

While I appreciate the idea behind the changes - making challenges reward good loot - they have gone way too far. Easy rare nameds in DoV instances dropping overtuned loot en masse, almost every piece of loot in EoW has very high stats.

Although the final Boss mob in EoW is harder than anything you'll find in the other Drunder instances the loot shouldn't be THAT good. A tad better than Drunder level would be fair enough.

Ry'Gorr level would be stupid, though. I don't see any group in Ry'Gorr armor killing Decorin.

I'm in Ry'Gorr gear and I'm not even allowed in Drunder, much less EoW.

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Old 08-29-2011, 10:08 AM   #15
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/signed

Agree with the OP 100%, and hope things get addressed and fixed soon.  Suggestions in this thread to fixing itemization and Drunder should be taken seriously.  However at this point with Heroic gear equal to or better to HM raid gear I'm not sure what they can do besides scrap the current items, and change their values across the board... essentially revamping all DoV, which we've been asking for.. I cringe to think if they plan on releasing Western Wastes, will we have another 3-5 teirs of forced progression so close together only a couple zones will be available, and Heroic gear dropping there will be better than HM EoW raid gear. =(

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Old 08-29-2011, 11:56 AM   #16
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I more like "Shard of Hate" progression, where everyone could do the first 3 nameds atleast then we could work on the 4th until we got him, then the 5th, then 6th, ect.

Underfoot Depths had its own problems.

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Old 08-29-2011, 11:59 AM   #17
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

The EoW EM instance should be dropping Ry'Gorr level gear to allow players a way to save shards and craft drunder gear.  The gear drops in that zone at that quality were thoroughly unnecessary.

A completely different set of Instance/Heroic gear is thoroughly unnecessary.  If casuals want uber gear there's an avenue for that: raiding.

Also, SOE seems oblivious on how to tune their content.  Never seen an MMORPG where so many nerfs were needed to make normal-mode heroics duable by players in (comparatively speaking) Ry'Gorr gear.

On the flip side, casuals expect to zone into an instance on day 1 and clear the whole thing.  Raiders don't clear raid zones in a day, if you're an instance hero you should expect somewhat similar progression, just on a smaller scale.

EoW gear should be better then Ry'gorr because it does indeed take more critical mitigation and CC then rygorr can offer.

But it should not be as powerful as it is now.

Another problem with EoW loot is the stats on most pieces are completely wrong.

The Real problem is the gear dropping from "rare" nameds in new zones, that gear is 100x better then the gear that drops in EoW.

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Old 08-29-2011, 12:23 PM   #18
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Ry'Gorr doesn't give Crit Rate, and some of the weapons in EoW give less crit than Kael Instance and Contested drops.  Contested still exists, as do Drunder instances which give more Crit Mit than Ry'Gorr.  There is still some progression there.  It should be doable in a mid of Ry'Gorr and Drunder 1-2 items, and the gear should be on par with Drunder 2/3.  You can get better gear by upgrading to Drunder Crafted gear.  That still leaves new x2 and EM/HM raids intacts as logical progression paths for those who want to raid.

Not going to entertain anymore of your i diotic posts about Ry'Gorr gear, nor will I attempt to debate with you about something this obvious.

The gear is too good.  It could be 114 STA/ClassStat 5.5 CB/POT gear with 2-3 CM per piece upgrade over Ry'Gorr and that would be fine.

You can get enough CM for this place in full Ry'Gorr gear with Adornments, and you can get the necessary crit rate with Kael Instance or Contested weapons/Off pieces and Adornments.

The rare named do not drop ARMOR.  They only drop off-pieces.  That is a different issue.  Jewelry in the HM instances is protected somewhat by set bonuses.  Off pieces are protected somewhat by Red Slots.  The armor is not protected.  The EoW drops are better than EM loot in the game right now, and most HM loot.  Faceroll instances shouldn't drop better loot than x4 raids, I dont' care who you're 2 grouping it with (peeps in HM gear, most likely) and I don't care that the content was launch content.  It makes 0 sense.

It should be nerfed into the ground, and for the record I already have several pieces of the new EoW or Rare Named loot already.  Only an i diot would sit around and NOT go get them at the moment.

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Old 08-29-2011, 12:41 PM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ry'Gorr doesn't give Crit Rate, and some of the weapons in EoW give less crit than Kael Instance and Contested drops.  Contested still exists, as do Drunder instances which give more Crit Mit than Ry'Gorr.  There is still some progression there.  It should be doable in a mid of Ry'Gorr and Drunder 1-2 items, and the gear should be on par with Drunder 2/3.  You can get better gear by upgrading to Drunder Crafted gear.  That still leaves new x2 and EM/HM raids intacts as logical progression paths for those who want to raid.

Not going to entertain anymore of your i diotic posts about Ry'Gorr gear, nor will I attempt to debate with you about something this obvious.

The gear is too good.  It could be 114 STA/ClassStat 5.5 CB/POT gear with 2-3 CM per piece upgrade over Ry'Gorr and that would be fine.

You can get enough CM for this place in full Ry'Gorr gear with Adornments, and you can get the necessary crit rate with Kael Instance or Contested weapons/Off pieces and Adornments.

The rare named do not drop ARMOR.  They only drop off-pieces.  That is a different issue.  Jewelry in the HM instances is protected somewhat by set bonuses.  Off pieces are protected somewhat by Red Slots.  The armor is not protected.  The EoW drops are better than EM loot in the game right now, and most HM loot.  Faceroll instances shouldn't drop better loot than x4 raids, I dont' care who you're 2 grouping it with (peeps in HM gear, most likely) and I don't care that the content was launch content.  It makes 0 sense.

It should be nerfed into the ground, and for the record I already have several pieces of the new EoW or Rare Named loot already.  Only an i diot would sit around and NOT go get them at the moment.

Thats because its "bugged", but then again the stats on the loot are also "wrong".

It requires 150-170 Critical Mitigation to Tank the Zone, and 250 Critical Chance.

EM Raiding Requires 180ish Critical Chance and 100ish Critical Mitigation.

x2 Raiding Requires 150ish Critical Chance and 80ish Critical Mitigation.

EoW Requires 250 Critical Chance, 150-170 Critical Mitigation, it is FINE on Progression, but the stats were "overbuffed", it should be almost the same stats as EMx4 Piece without red slots, but about a little more blue stat wise, but its NOT because the stats were "overbuffed" and most of the stats are "Wrong" such as casting speed on fighter gear.

The Weapons of the Zone Are "TRASH", they have the wrong damage, wrong stats, wrong delay.

The Jewelry looks like something from a horror movie, WRONG STATS, overpowered procs, HM Raid Loot Stats.

The Forearms are COMPLETELY Random, Some forearms have an overpowered proc while some DO NOT, all of the forearms should share some kind of proc.

NOW LETS LOOK AT THE NEW "Rare Mob Loot"

Every one of these new named mobs are easier to kill then the "Key Mob" each one drops a piece of gear thats better then HM Raid gear all around, and unlike EoW Loot, the stats are not "wrong" making the gear 100x better then EoW loot and 100x easier to get.  You don't even need lots of critical chance and critical mitigation or skill for that matter! you just need to be lucky! SMILEY

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #20
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Agree with the OP.

Between itemization being all screwy and current Tank mechanics it is getting extremely hard to log in and want to raid.

The idea of more and more content coming out seems like a great idea, but if the itemization is going to make tons of content obscolete everytime they do come out with another zone than it completely defeats the purpose.

Really there are 2 successful styles of zones when I think of good zones.  One is the SoH style with a few easier mobs and a few harder mobs....all with some rare unique drops and a layout that allows you to choose a couple different mobs that you can pull before others.  The other style is the VP-Underfoot with multiple wings that require being able to clear the wings in succession to get to the next wing.  I do not like that there has to be an EM and HM version of every single zone.  I liked the SF set up much better with being able to turn a mob into HM for better loot in the zone.

As an example the Drunder zones could have been done as one big zone like Cory suggested with the 3 towers as seperate wings.  In order to get to wing 2 you have to clear wing 1.  Now in each of the wings allow a couple of the mobs to be turned into HM versions.  Like in Sullons allowing Gregore and Sullon to be turned into HM for much better drops.  The mobs at the end of the wings should require some decent work though for progression...so slightly harder than they are on EM right now.  You could even make it where you can't activate the next HM mob unless you defeat the prior HM mob.  Like in order to be able to activate Sullon HM you need to flag a defeat on Gregore HM in the same zone.  Sprinkle a few rare unique drops in addition to the Mythicals, and some on some of the EM mobs and bam...good zone.

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Old 08-29-2011, 01:52 PM   #21
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ry'Gorr doesn't give Crit Rate, and some of the weapons in EoW give less crit than Kael Instance and Contested drops.  Contested still exists, as do Drunder instances which give more Crit Mit than Ry'Gorr.  There is still some progression there.  It should be doable in a mid of Ry'Gorr and Drunder 1-2 items, and the gear should be on par with Drunder 2/3.  You can get better gear by upgrading to Drunder Crafted gear.  That still leaves new x2 and EM/HM raids intacts as logical progression paths for those who want to raid.

Not going to entertain anymore of your i diotic posts about Ry'Gorr gear, nor will I attempt to debate with you about something this obvious.

The gear is too good.  It could be 114 STA/ClassStat 5.5 CB/POT gear with 2-3 CM per piece upgrade over Ry'Gorr and that would be fine.

You can get enough CM for this place in full Ry'Gorr gear with Adornments, and you can get the necessary crit rate with Kael Instance or Contested weapons/Off pieces and Adornments.

The rare named do not drop ARMOR.  They only drop off-pieces.  That is a different issue.  Jewelry in the HM instances is protected somewhat by set bonuses.  Off pieces are protected somewhat by Red Slots.  The armor is not protected.  The EoW drops are better than EM loot in the game right now, and most HM loot.  Faceroll instances shouldn't drop better loot than x4 raids, I dont' care who you're 2 grouping it with (peeps in HM gear, most likely) and I don't care that the content was launch content.  It makes 0 sense.

It should be nerfed into the ground, and for the record I already have several pieces of the new EoW or Rare Named loot already.  Only an i diot would sit around and NOT go get them at the moment.

Thats because its "bugged", but then again the stats on the loot are also "wrong".

It requires 150-170 Critical Mitigation to Tank the Zone, and 250 Critical Chance.

EM Raiding Requires 180ish Critical Chance and 100ish Critical Mitigation.

x2 Raiding Requires 150ish Critical Chance and 80ish Critical Mitigation.

EoW Requires 250 Critical Chance, 150-170 Critical Mitigation, it is FINE on Progression, but the stats were "overbuffed", it should be almost the same stats as EMx4 Piece without red slots, but about a little more blue stat wise, but its NOT because the stats were "overbuffed" and most of the stats are "Wrong" such as casting speed on fighter gear.

The Weapons of the Zone Are "TRASH", they have the wrong damage, wrong stats, wrong delay.

The Jewelry looks like something from a horror movie, WRONG STATS, overpowered procs, HM Raid Loot Stats.

The Forearms are COMPLETELY Random, Some forearms have an overpowered proc while some DO NOT, all of the forearms should share some kind of proc.

NOW LETS LOOK AT THE NEW "Rare Mob Loot"

Every one of these new named mobs are easier to kill then the "Key Mob" each one drops a piece of gear thats better then HM Raid gear all around, and unlike EoW Loot, the stats are not "wrong" making the gear 100x better then EoW loot and 100x easier to get.  You don't even need lots of critical chance and critical mitigation or skill for that matter! you just need to be lucky!

You only need like 150 CM to tank that zone.  It's a heroic.  They don't have innate CB the Devs fixed that months ago.

Wish there was an ignore function for this forum.

Ry'Gorr gear gives you ~165 CM adorned.  More if you have a ToRZ Heroic BP so you still don't have a point.

250 CC is not hard to get.  Buffs exist for a reason, as well.

I've done the zone already, multiple times.  It's pretty faceroll and it's dropping Forarms and Belts that are ridiculous.

The New Rare MOB loot is overpowered as well.  No one said anything to the contrary.

A Heroic that's easier than Drunder 2 shouldn't be dropping gear on par with HM gear.  It should be dropping gear on par with Drunder 2.

And the issue is the Dev's insistence on putting a whole new tier of gear in every game update.  It was unnecessary and it makes it ridiculously hard to balance Heroic gear against raid gear.

The gear shouldn't be better than New x2 gear, nevermind x4 or HM gear.

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Old 08-29-2011, 02:54 PM   #22
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I agree with the OP - As ive said a million time's ive raided since launch in this game, every single encounter there is basically. Including avatar's when they were out..

When DoV launched i felt the progression being totally useless, and over done.. Crit mit shouldn't be a Crutch you need to raid.. just make the encounters scripted so players have to do stuff.. and drop this crit mit junk.

So yeah i quit when DoV launched, retired my raid guild, and quit with a bunch of my members. Well i've recently came back, and it's pointless cause everything is just all over the place, and this new itemization program you use is pure failure and messed everything up anymore..

I hope a Red Name come's in here, and listens to the OP, There are a BUNCH of top name players in this thread, and it would be wise to read it.. If you don't reply its just pure disrespectful to us!

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Old 08-29-2011, 03:10 PM   #23
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Just saying this is the first time since launch I am debating not playing this game at all anymore unless something is changed. It is a "chore" to log in and raid now. There is ZERO reason to do previous dungeons in kael now, and what is even the biggest flop of this xpac is that NO ONE cares about killing HM throne boss. The fight itself is just probably the worst design for this xpac, and the designer just needs to destroy his little toy and break it down to be in line with the new zones that were put out before us before we could "progress" into them.

This xpac is 0/10 .... FLOP.

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Old 08-29-2011, 05:03 PM   #24
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debating on quitting this game, and cancling my wife, and mine accounts again.. Cause we came back to even more junk, then the DoV launch junk lol... No pulling the omg threaten Sony card with not funding there lazyness.. Just saying.. that's prob whats gonna happen, cause this is just pointless to play, and the Population numbers should show them, there idia's aren't working.

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Old 08-29-2011, 06:00 PM   #25
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Just want to chime in and agree with the OP. Every day I lose more and more interest in playing this game, mostly because of forced progression. When I can see exactly what I have to do 5 steps in front of me to clear content which has nothing to do with player skill but simply gear, I don't see what the point really is anymore. And for the record, required debuffs for progression has to be the worst mechanic ever. Did you really think it would be FUN to have to cast a debuff every 30 secs or you autofail? Its just tedious.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:48 AM   #26
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Shameless quote from not even these forums..but hit it right on the head:

"I have been saying this for awhile now. Tiered raiding is OK so long as it is done by completion of content or zone access like RoK...not required crit mit. Having a certain amount of crit mit is just stupid for progression and ruined DoV for me. Something about going back and gearing people out over and over, regardless of how good they are, because they need the crit mit to survive an AOE does not sound appealing."

What's ironic is this quote is from a guy that was leader of a server's top progression guild (it still is btw).   They had fully geared folks clamoring to join their guild.  Same is true for most top end guilds in DoV.  But this post hits home for me, leader of a mid-level raiding guild that when we lose folks we lose them to burnout and just quitting the game for a time, or to high end guilds like the one this player I'm quoting is from.  If we find replacements its usually not a geared one from another raiding guild.  So a guild like ours is behind the 8 ball with this new progression scheme.  No one wants to run the orginal x4 EM zones..but we have to keep recruits up to par...ugh.

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Old 08-31-2011, 08:16 AM   #27
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Agree 100% DOV Raiding or running DOV Instances its the same problem.

Only real fun I have anymore is doing older content for fun and appearance items and Kael Contested for the rare fabled trash drop during statue runs.

And thats another problem with content since we started having to farm shards.

Everyone looks the same. EOF was the last Expac that really had cool looking gear you would be willing to do runs for.

I know that SOE thinks that is the job of Station Cash, and they are going to shoot a few toes off over it in the near future.

Lazy gear and Ugly gear (except in the cash shop of course) will kill this game faster than anything else. Top it off with heroic instances that need raid gear to do and boring questlines that reward only XP and AA and you might as well start putting the nails in the coffin now.

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Old 08-31-2011, 08:38 AM   #28
Griffildur
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Well said. This whole expansion has just been one failure after another. I know I'm not by myself, but the only thing that gets me to log on, is to talk to the friend I've made, and PL their alts. I'm logging into other games, and having a lot more fun as of late.

Totally agree with you.

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Old 09-02-2011, 10:58 AM   #29
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Its the hyperinflation of CritMit I see as the problem.

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Old 09-02-2011, 07:58 PM   #30
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Nothing wrong with required debuffs. It's just the /next/ mechanic - Tserinna clear takes all of an hour to do. Priest have been having to cure curses or ppl die for a couple years now. So now every one has to watch for a buff - its not like its worth a double take or to hinder progression. 

Progression is mainly hindered by the fact loot is lame and they have no clue how to get it right anymore. Raiding for marginal upgrades will NEVER be rewarding in anyones eyes. Their is absolutely nothing enticing about raiding atm. Not the loot, not the encounters(unless Hand of Vallon b/c thats pretty fun), and not the thought of progression as a whole b/c you know its a good chance the mob will be unkillable just due to being improperly tuned(hi statue).

Avatars were fun, brought competition, and possibly alot of negatives too. However they gave unique loot and people were actually excited to open the chest. Now its "oh snap this has .7pot/cb and 6top end dmg more than what we spent 2 weeks learning last tier to get!!! OH EM GEE!!".

War Runes were cool, then they werent' why? No heirloom, no fix, lets just move away from it completely since its obviously a bad idea(b/c it never became heirloom). Future loot(granted subject to change) looks just as uninspiring and lacks just as much if not more creativity than what we have already. 

Question is, the playerbase knows it - why dont you the devs.

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