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Old 08-09-2006, 11:44 AM   #1
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Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged.
Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:18 PM   #2
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bah i should have just left what i had said but instead i'll just say....hmm no I guess it's best not to speak to the small minded.

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Old 08-09-2006, 12:27 PM   #3
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Assassins have 3 Ranged Attacks. 1 from Behind, 1 while Flanking, One 2 shot from Any direction. Properly fired from a 62 Assassin, A Level 65 Mob is dropped to Redline on the pull. That's before the arsenal of Melee attacks available when the mob gets there. Did I mention this is for Solo Assassins? In groups there are nifty skills like concealemnt where you can fire all of your Stealthed attacks in under 7 seconds. Option B against Solo mobs is to just stand there and Auto Attack it to death faster than a Ranger can. Rangers ARE Ranged and their Ranged abilities should match the same abilities of a Stealthed Assassin. They do not. Assassins can Literally stand still and press buttons and do more damage than a Ranger can. It is wrong. It needs to be Fixed.
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Old 08-09-2006, 12:30 PM   #4
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Conjurors can outdps us at the same distance from the target. Conjurors solo better.
 
Your very "special" attempt to create drama is ...  Im glad that you couldnt keep that in your head.
 
Because after all ZOmG u can PwnZor Solo Mobs FtW. Dont tell Soe or we will get nerfed.
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Old 08-09-2006, 03:25 PM   #5
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:38 PM   #6
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Old 08-09-2006, 05:07 PM   #7
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Ignorant are we? Give me your name/class/server/level please, and I will send you a tell on what rangers actually do in fights.. Clearly you dont know, and dont even try to say otherwise.Just for the record though, rangers spend there time 90% in melee range. So dont try and tell me otherwise.
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Old 08-09-2006, 05:53 PM   #8
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LoreLady wrote:
Ignorant are we? Give me your name/class/server/level please, and I will send you a tell on what rangers actually do in fights.. Clearly you dont know, and dont even try to say otherwise.

Just for the record though, rangers spend there time 90% in melee range. So dont try and tell me otherwise.


I don't know what's more disappointing, the OP being convinced that we should have to pay a figurative price for ranged DPS in addition to the literal one we pay for ammo... or the really arrogant, [Removed for Content] responses to him.

Lore, you really need to lighten up, man. Your attitude is getting utterly ridiculous. Maybe *you* spend 90% of your time in melee range; that doesn't mean any other ranger does or should. Please, just stop asserting your opinions as facts. And be careful throwing the word "ignorant" around after claiming that your so-called "ranger dance" (which doesn't even work) was an exploit that raised your DPS considerably, when all it really did was waste time. 

Do yourself a favor and relax. Stop demanding ppl's names and servers so you can send them tells to set them straight on the 'right' way to be a ranger. Can you see how arrogant and presumptuous that is? If you really want to help, OFFER to talk to someone in-game. Provide YOUR name and server to someone so they can contact you if they so desire.

Would you like it if I started sending you tells to set you straight on the 'right' way to use English grammar and spelling? No, you're fine writing however you please... and the rest of us are fine playing our characters however we please.

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Old 08-09-2006, 06:02 PM   #9
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Ofzion wrote:Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged.Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.
Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:25 PM   #10
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Thats the dumbest post I have seen in a long...., well not that long, but it's still the dumbest.
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:39 PM   #11
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Pinski wrote:


Ofzion wrote:
Ok, really simple. Any other scout must usually be within melee distance to do there most damaging attacks. A ranger does not. A Ranger can hit 2 or 3(more if coupled with speed debuffs) times before a creature even comes within melee range. Very simple. It is the price you pay for being ranged.
Now, i can understand why a whole lot of rangers are defecting over to assasins since most seam to be high level group raiders, where it doesnt matter if a ranger can get in 2 or 3 shots before entering melee range since they have tank that takes the heat and so the group doesnt require that and therefore the rangers switch to a class that can add more damage. But I read a post where a ranger said when hunting, he would reduce the targets HP down to 10-20% by the time he came within melee range. For soloing and small mobs, this is invaluble.



Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.


/agree with the above. 

 

To OP --  Everyone makes tradeoffs to do what they do.  If you haven't figured it out what they are by now I'd recommend rolling an alt of the class and playing it.  You'll start to see what the class is about...maybe.

 

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Old 08-09-2006, 07:06 PM   #12
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Pinski wrote:Then all mages should have their DPS nerfed according to your theory. Btw, you're about as bright as doornail.
Not the same issue... Mages have no easy means to mitigate aggro and are squishier. The mages ability to deal damage without engaging the target is compensated by a significantly higher degree of vulnerability than the Ranger.Now even given the OPs point... which I do think has some small degree of merit... I think the gap between most Rangers and their T1 peers is too large and the cost of arrows is too great even if one were to accept the OPs point as valid. As it stands Rangers pay a fair chunk of change for their range advantage, and so one can't really say that they should pay twice for that in diminished performance.Rangers pay cash with each and every arrow shot for their ranged advantage.And Jay has a very good point. There needs to be more rational discussion and less religious certitude on this forum in my personal opinion.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:14 PM   #13
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I guess my stealth wasn't as good as it could be. I am really an assasin planting lies about how the ranger is ok and doesn't need to be changed. Thus ensuring that the ranger will stay weak. How diabolical. Now to answer:
 
I am as bright as a doornail......ok
 
I was not saying that then ranger is without fault. I don't have a high level ranger so I don't know the cost of arrows that high so that would be in fact a quite bad thing.
 
And my entire point is that we should not be at the TOP of DPS not we should be at the lower end. Thats all.
 
And a reply to the magic thing. There was a post made here a couple days ago where someone was complaining about not being able to fire an arrow while within melee range and made the comparison that mages can do it so why can't we. There was post after post saying that was comparing apples to oranges. Yet here it suddenly makes sense?
 
Now if the above posted is correct in saying that an assasin can get a creature into the red before coming into melee range, then that simply is not right. They should NOT be able to do that.
 
Believe it or not, I just posted this not to start a flame war but because I kept seeing thread after thread about how so many rangers are betraying to become assasins and how the rangers attacks arent close to an assasin. Do I think the ranger needs to be given a damage boost, yes but not to the extent of an assasin. Phew
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:22 PM   #14
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A blatant trolling thread.  Mods pelase lock!
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:28 PM   #15
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:05 PM   #16
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To the OP, Most of the arguments rage around the raiding game and where Ranger DPS lies there. There are a number of classes that many believe can do as much or more damage than a Ranger, yet bring more utility to the raid. Also, the discrepancy really starts to show itself in guilds that have a good mix of classes that can build very high DPS raids up. It is here you will see Brigands (that have AoE immunity btw) hitting 14-1500 DPS along with swashies, Conjorers & Assassins (both closer to 1800 on our raids). The figures are approximate and from my guilds raids - people can take or leave them as they please). The thing that is annoying the raiding Rangers (and causing some high end guilds to stop recruiting Rangers) is that you can have Ranger damage (or better) in a number of classes that are frankly more useful. However, not all raid make ups will see this. In my previous guild my 1-1.1k DPS topped the parser most of the time - it's nowhere near enough in my current guild (even though I've improved on that figure with better gear and playstyle now).  Raid guild DPS will vary - even the high end guilds have a mix of raid styles ranging from extreme DPS to a more moderate style. Also in these guilds, many mob AoE's start to become a non or very minor issue.  Players can hit 7-8k specific resists so the damage is mitigated as low as possible. The healers then just top up players as required - although there are some mobs that still make you pay if you get caught. Any number of people will disagree with my last few paragraphs and the debate will rage on. All I will say that I've found it best not to make too sweeping a statement or post opinion where other posters are discussing something you might not have experienced first hand (raiding seems to be the most extreme example of this - the game changes a lot between grouping and raiding). Even if your comment are valid, when opinons are so strongly divided it migth be best to weigh in on the matters you have more experience ( I don't post on solo issues any more because I rarely solo these days f.ex). There are many people on these forums waiting to jump down your throat. Lol - I just re-read this and it sounds like a more polite version of 'Lern2play N00b, come back when you raid'. It's honestly not meant to sound like that - sigh. Mirdo.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:15 PM   #17
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Mirdo, you are 100% right. I apologize if my comments sounded like me trivializing your(the rangers the are uhappy) situation. In fact, looking back, I was refering to grouping and soloing, not raiding so for that again, I am sorry if I misled you. Since I don't raid, I don't comment on it.
 
Personally, I think the best any RPG(MMO or not) of createing classes was Diablo 2. Each class brought something very useful to the table. I loved the Necromancer in that game and would love for the EQ2 necro to be like that but I digress.
 
I am not a troll(i dont even play one in game lol)
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:17 PM   #18
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Ofzion wrote:
I guess my stealth wasn't as good as it could be. I am really an assasin planting lies about how the ranger is ok and doesn't need to be changed. Thus ensuring that the ranger will stay weak. How diabolical. Now to answer:
 
I am as bright as a doornail......ok
 
I was not saying that then ranger is without fault. I don't have a high level ranger so I don't know the cost of arrows that high so that would be in fact a quite bad thing.
 
And my entire point is that we should not be at the TOP of DPS not we should be at the lower end. Thats all.
 
And a reply to the magic thing. There was a post made here a couple days ago where someone was complaining about not being able to fire an arrow while within melee range and made the comparison that mages can do it so why can't we. There was post after post saying that was comparing apples to oranges. Yet here it suddenly makes sense?
 
Now if the above posted is correct in saying that an assasin can get a creature into the red before coming into melee range, then that simply is not right. They should NOT be able to do that.
 
Believe it or not, I just posted this not to start a flame war but because I kept seeing thread after thread about how so many rangers are betraying to become assasins and how the rangers attacks arent close to an assasin. Do I think the ranger needs to be given a damage boost, yes but not to the extent of an assasin. Phew


Congratulations you figured out that Rangers should be between 1 and 24!
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:21 PM   #19
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Ofzion wrote:
Mirdo, you are 100% right. I apologize if my comments sounded like me trivializing your(the rangers the are uhappy) situation. In fact, looking back, I was refering to grouping and soloing, not raiding so for that again, I am sorry if I misled you. Since I don't raid, I don't comment on it.

I'm not really sure how you could have missed that the DPS issues were only with end game raiding.  It is plastered all over basically every ranger DPS thread out there.  Very few people in any recent time have said we are even remotely broken in a group or solo scenerio.

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Old 08-09-2006, 09:36 PM   #20
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Oh wow - Diablo II - I loved hardcore. I miss the rush you get when a mistake means you can lose weeks of work. No experience I've ever had in other RPG/MMO games close to the feeling of closely avoiding death in a permadeath game (or the empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when your pride and joy bites the dust). That said, I did like the penalties in EQ1 - not as severe as permadeath but enough to give you a scare deep in a tricky dungeon - especially if you soloed there SMILEY (oh no - incoming flamewar about harsh/light death penalties) SMILEY Mirdo.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:57 PM   #21
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Mirdo wrote:
Oh wow - Diablo II - I loved hardcore. I miss the rush you get when a mistake means you can lose weeks of work. No experience I've ever had in other RPG/MMO games close to the feeling of closely avoiding death in a permadeath game (or the empty feeling in the pit of your stomach when your pride and joy bites the dust). That said, I did like the penalties in EQ1 - not as severe as permadeath but enough to give you a scare deep in a tricky dungeon - especially if you soloed there SMILEY

(oh no - incoming flamewar about harsh/light death penalties) SMILEY

Mirdo.




No flame here.  I totally agree.  I found the death penalty in EQ1 (Kunark and before) very brutal.  You were forced to recover your corpse, no matter where it was, or you'd lose your gear.  The Plane of Fear was especially bad, often corpse runs lasted 6+ hours and you usually ended up dying a couple more times before you could get to your original corpse.  To be honest, I'm glad those days are over.  It did add to the excitement, especially the first time you enetered a new zone.  It was nothing as severe as Diablo 2, but then my Diablo characters died so often, I rarely had much time on them anyway.
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:18 PM   #22
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Jay42 wrote:


 

I don't know what's more disappointing, 1) the OP being convinced that we should have to pay a figurative price for ranged DPS in addition to the literal one we pay for ammo... or 2) the really arrogant, [Removed for Content] responses to him.



I vote for 2.

 

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Old 08-09-2006, 11:06 PM   #23
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Prandtl wrote:
A blatant trolling thread.  Mods pelase lock!
You're confusing different opinion with troll.
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:37 AM   #24
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Speaking as a soloer on this... You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class. So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department. And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me.
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:11 AM   #25
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TaleraRis wrote:Speaking as a soloer on this...You see our ranged attacks as an advantage. I see them as a liability. We have maybe, what, 2 skills we can cast on the move? The others require us to be at least standing still, some require position or stealth and some require all three. I have to be at range to do the best damage I can do to my opponent. My melee skills are laughable, frankly, in comparison to our sister class.So I have to get those heavy shots off before that mob gets to me. I have very few tools to get that mob away again-4 second root, 4 second stun, a snare that hasn't been very effective soloing-so my damage needs to be done before the mob is in my face. Assassins have the melee skills that we don't. They don't need to get the mob down as far in health before it gets into melee range, because they have the tools they need to survive when it's down to one-on-one time. Rangers lack in that department.And whoever said mages are squishy, I'll tell you. I'm squishy, too. I don't last anymore against a heroic than my conjuror would being beaten on repeatedly, but she has tools, ie her pet, that prevent that from happening and allow her to take on tougher encounters. I just have little old froggy me.

You're level 54. You don't have any problems compaired to any other Scout your level... At lvl 52 I betrayed my Ranger to Assassin and this weekend I'm betraying him back.There's precious little difference between an Assassin and a Ranger soloing singles.... soloing groups is MUCH easier with a Ranger especially against groups. My lvl 70 Brigand is really strong against single oponents as he can tear their mitigation right down, but he can't have a group of 3 mobs all nearly dead before they get to him.All the scouts have pros and cons, and the timing required to solo a Ranger well is most definately the most taxing of any scout... but once you have it down pat, soloing with a Ranger is a breeze.Yes robes have lots of tools to use soloing... grouped however they most definately are squishier than you, and they do not have the means of any of the scouts to mitigate aggro... you can minimise it all you want, but these two factors are most deginately a disadvantage they have. Yes they have other advantages that most scouts dont have (acting from range being one) but you can't simply knock their disadvantages off the table and say you're only going to look at their advantages... while you knock your advantages off the table and say you're only going to look at your disadvantages.If you don't regard your range as an advantage you are most definately play playing the wrong class. You need to switch to Assassin.... that's not a "if you don't like it get out"... it really is a case if you see range as a liability, if it's an irksome mechanic you honestly need to play a more straight-up melee class.... I suggest you take a look at Swashbucklers. They're a straightforward class.And for finishing off mobs, Ranger melee is very strong. No Rangers don't have the number of melee attacks to sustain melee, but they do have a couple of very strong melee attacks.You see only the disadvantages of the Ranger and the advantages of an Assassin... try being an Assassin looking at a group of mobs when one of them sees invis... try being that Assassin when he watched a Ranger use his stealthed, ranged AE attack.Yes Assassins are strong... yes mages are strong... yes Rangers have issues... but this polarised black and white inverse reality you see the game through simply isn't so.Rangers are a well rounded, well conceived class that have a couple of very important, but very narrowly focused issues that need addressed. Presenting Rangers as all bad masks these key issues....
  • Rangers pay through the nose to perform their function without return for the cost
  • Ranger cast timers are long for no apparent reason and no return
  • SoA a signature ability is borked
  • Ranger bow itemisation sucks
If they changed an AA to provide Rangers with a chance to double-attack with bows tomorrow, and allowed SoA to participate in this mechanic and changed Ranger arrow summoning, Ranger issues would evapourate instantly. The problem would simply blow away because the issues facing Rangers while quite profound aren't especially broad, complicated or difficult to address.... the class as a whole is not broken. Changing cast timers would be a bonus that would put a smile on the face of everybody, but simply changing an AA would solve the "crisis" in a single move.Assassins would also have access to the same AA... make it an end of line 8pt AA. If an Assassin wants to invest so heavily in ranged AAs no biggy if he gets to yield benefit out of it.The developer investment (I'm a middle-aged programmer) in fixing the first 3 items is trivial. It's tweaking numbers. The bow itemisation would have to be addressed over time.Rivals and competitors to Rangers are comming to concensus and vocalising that Rangers are in urgent need of attention.... that is when classes get addressed for better or worse. When playerwide consensus forms. Devs can't ignore it, nor do they historically. Dramatising the issue muddies the water making the real issues harder to see and antagonises said rivals and slowing down the formation of consensus.By all means address Ranger issues. Don't resort to "oh woe is me, nobody knows the trouble I've seen" as it actually makes the situation a lot worse.... mid level Rangers are now having trouble getting groups. Mid level Rangers who don't have a single thing wrong with their character are walking around feeling morose convinced they're "broke" and their efforts are all wasted.
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:25 AM   #26
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Trolls are fun!

And Jay, add me to the list of people who want to know where and who.  I could easily remove my sig and go post on the oh, Guardian board a class about which I know nothing.  Not that I have to prove anything to them but I really have no capability to post on the Guardian board intelligently except by hiding behind  the anonymity of a random poster on the boards.

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Old 08-10-2006, 06:39 AM   #27
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Carnagh, I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but I would really get to know the people who post around here and their positions before you post something like "You really should play an assassin" I have no interest in playing a melee class. I've stated time and again I'm a die-hard ranger and anyone who posts here regularly knows that. They also know I'm a die-hard soloer and I've stated many times I don't have a problem soloing as a ranger. But our ranged opportunity shouldn't be seen as something to keep us from being fixed in the areas that we need to be fixed. It *is* a disadvantage, rather than the advantage some think it is, for a soloing ranger. I can't get a group of mobs nearly dead before they get to me, not at my level. Storm of Arrows, if I'm lucky, will get them down to yellow and usually if I pull with that then they parry and it was useless. I end up using that skill when I'm already engaged, after I take out one with Stealthy Fire and the Trip line, as I've had much more luck that it won't miss. But to say, as the OP said, that we shouldn't be near top DPS because we can strike from ranged and that it's always an advantage is false. It's not. In my case, it takes planning and tactics and sometimes a whole lot of luck and praying I can resist anything that can root me so I can get distance for a shot. I love it, but it's by no means a reason why when we already have to put in more effort to get the DPS we do, we shouldn't be higher in DPS than we are, when DPS is just about all we bring.

Message Edited by TaleraRis on 08-09-2006 10:39 PM

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Old 08-10-2006, 09:16 AM   #28
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A whole lot of ranger problems with soloing could be solved very simply. 

1. Make Cheap Shot stick in spite of damage on any non-heroic mob.  There are single ^ mobs that are "solo" mobs and Cheap Shot needs to work normally on them.  Let it break on damage with heroic mobs as usual, so we don't encroach on 'chanter territory.

2. Un-nerf Point Blank Shot.  This skill has been nerfed what, 2 or 3 times?  I don't care much about the damage on it (since it's not high enough to worry about) but raise the duration back up by a bit.  As it is, it's not worth putting on the hotbar until you get 6 or 8 ranks in it.  It needs to hold long enough to get behind the mob for a Longblade/Ranger's Blade combo.

3. Re-work our snares.  Bump up the effectiveness and make them slightly more likely to hold through damage. As-is they're barely worth using.  Heck, my roommate can stack his Brigand's snares to bring a mob down to a dead crawl--and he doesn't even need that capability.  We do, so give it to us.

Adding the 4 second root to the Lunging Joust line is nice, and it does help--but it's not enough.  We need to be able to utilize our ranged attacks, and we need the tools to utilize our stealth attacks like other scout classes do.  None of the above changes (implemented in moderation) would be unbalancing--it would just allow us to solo on an even keel.

On topic:

There is no direct correlation between DPS potential and the ability to attack from range.  There are too many other factors involved to simplify the matter that far.  Rangers should not be the sole occupants of the top of the DPS list, but we definitely need to be able to make it there on a regular basis.  If you must simplify it to some degree, it seems to me that a better premise is that DPS is what we do.  We don't debuff, we don't buff, we don't make anyone else better, we don't make pretty light shows--we deal damage, pure and simple.  Our armor, our aggro mitigation, our range--those are just the tools we use.  Cloth DPS, chain DPS--they each have their pluses and minuses...it's a wash.  So our DPS needs to be equivalent--sometimes better and sometimes worse, but always close.

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Old 08-10-2006, 09:38 AM   #29
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Wow did this devovle, but I figured it would part of why I didn't leave my original opinion up.  As for on topic, I don't think anyone here cares if we are #1 uber leet pwnzr 2000 bots, but we all want to be in the running instead of a lagging badly 4th.  I wouldn't care if i was constantly number 4 or 5 or whatever if my dps was in line with the others, but it isn't from what I've seen.  I respect the fact that the OP has his own different perspective, but if you talk stupid dribble you aren't going to get better back most of the time. 
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Old 08-10-2006, 11:53 AM   #30
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To help clarify why snares and PB shot have been reduced. Its because of PVP imo. The reason why some skills i.e anything with a stun/stifle/mez/root/snare have been reduced in potency because over on PVP it would be too easy to have someone else perma-stuned or what ever negative effect is on the player. It shouldn't be that PVP servers are effecting PVE envoirnments so strongly like they are now.

But, if they did raise any of those effects hell yea soloing would be a bit easier and more enjoyable. I'm not saying to make it completely doable by any person though.

     That was replying to the off topic post that Tarryn wrote.

And to the OP. I can kind of understand where you are coming from if this was back in tier 6 days, but there is no reason to be saying that when rangers are in need of a dps boost in every way possible.

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