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Old 02-08-2006, 12:20 AM   #61
Tseri

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I stopped reading things about halfway through here because it looked like it was degenerating into a flame fest.
 
Disturbing?  Yes.
 
However.  The OP was not wrong in coming here and posting the way they did.  There was nothing flamish about the original post.  Simply someone that felt disappointed and expressed it.  I'm disappointed myself.  In my group of friends we have no steady tank, so I usually end up doing it.  Stream was a huge help in this situation.  That help is now gone.  Is my life over?  No.  I'm frustrated that I can't use that CA to pull and burn something most of the way down before I have to resort to my melee CA's and take another 5 mins to kill something, but like so many others have said, I'll live and move on.
 
I usually am a big fan of most people posting in here.  Things are constructive, people get along, etc.  It disappoints me when someone makes a post like the OP and then immediately the big names in here pounce on them and tell them that they'll hold the door open for them on the way out.  Way to be constructive.  It's downright rude.  All you constructive people need to just take a step back and breathe, then ask a question instead of showing the door to anyone who so much as looks like they're going to complain.
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:39 AM   #62
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Rangers/Rangettes:
 
Forgive me if I seem at a loss, but what exactly is the problem here?  I spent the night prior to LU19 striving to level up from 39 to 40 in Rivervale.  With a certain amount of patience, I was able to drop water elementals that considered yellow to me without much fuss.  The night after LU19, I zoned back into Rivervale and did the EXACT same thing.  Apart from two <20 spells that I was still using at lvl 39 (one essentially renamed, another just GONE), I could not discern any great variance post update.
 
Ultimately, in a vastly complex game, if the developers decide to dull our talons a bit for the sake of balance, then so be it. Even if they make some poor decisions, we can, as a class, petition through these forums and in game APPROPRIATELY for some measure of justice. 
 
I play EQ2 for the ease of gameplay, not the ease of winning.  If I felt the need to play a game that's easy to win, I would kickbox toddlers.
 
- Be of good cheer, and just keep telling yourself, "it's only a GAME, it's only a GAME...."
 
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:56 AM   #63
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Grendelmcp wrote:
Rangers/Rangettes:
 
 
 
- Be of good cheer, and just keep telling yourself, "it's only a GAME, it's only a GAME...."
 
Regards,
 
Gelithiel "Eater of Worlds" Telperien
Level 40 Ranger
Highkeep soon to be Butcherblock
 

Wise words Grendelmcp.  I work tech support type work for a living... I know how sometimes mundane or redundant questions can really get to ya... Hell I get grumpy sometimes with the right conditions.

Alot of the folks in this post that lost thier cool are not normaly like that and I can really understand how things can trigger these types of responses.  

Now the dad in me really makes me put my patience hat on every once in a while and take a step back when words or actions make me angry.  Are the kids just venting?  Perhaps if I let them vent things will clear up on its own.  This is a skill that being a dad of 5 kids have taught me.  Even when it burns my ears sometimes SMILEY

I did not mean to defame anyone, I did not mean to attack anyone on a personal level.  I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention that in order to have free open discusion we need to roll with the posts we like and dislike.  That is all.  For anyone I made angry I apoligize as that was not my intent.

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Old 02-08-2006, 04:01 AM   #64
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Tseri wrote:
 
I usually am a big fan of most people posting in here.  Things are constructive, people get along, etc.  It disappoints me when someone makes a post like the OP and then immediately the big names in here pounce on them and tell them that they'll hold the door open for them on the way out.  Way to be constructive.  It's downright rude.  All you constructive people need to just take a step back and breathe, then ask a question instead of showing the door to anyone who so much as looks like they're going to complain.

Amen!  I'll never look at some of the people in here the same way again.  You'll show me the door? MU HAhah ahhaha. 

F A N B O I

Special thanks to Niuan.  I couldn't agree with you more.

 

 

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Old 02-08-2006, 06:10 AM   #65
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"F A N B O I"
 
That word really is painful to read.  Use a Y for the love of God.
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:40 AM   #66
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I know all of the rangers that frequent this board can post civily and treat eachother with respect. Please try to do so even though some of you may be frustrated with some of the changes.

 

Thank you.

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Old 02-08-2006, 07:36 PM   #67
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If I was a college science teacher I would expect example B on my homework and tests.  On a video game that does not require an education to play.... either one will suffice.  If the issue raises the attention of enough players either of the A or B category the Devs will look at it.  The assumption that devs only look at college quality posts I don't believe to be true.Regardless of the environment, the Devs are human just like everyone else, calling the pieces of sh-Garbage, by human nature, category A will result in the Devs skipping right past it and moving on, looking for a Post B.  So why not try and focus on Example B from the get-go. 

Just because someone does not know how to hold a conversation well, or prove a point well does not mean thier input was not valuable to a dev standpoint. It gives them an idea of the scope of the problem, I.E. how many people are effected.  Also gives the devs a ballpark figure on how this problem is effecting that individuals personal game enjoyment.You clearly missed the entire point of the post......it was a retort to commentalong the lines of "Aquality post, or just one that agrees with your oppinion"  So you took my comments out of context of the point I was trying to make.  I don't care if its sugar coated or what the idea is, flaming Devs, mods other classes, and Rangers for that matter, just makes one look juvenile. 

You mentioned you were in Help Desk, let me ask you a question then:

Customer A: Calls you screaming bloody murder, swearing calling your mother ungodly things becuase he is upset at your company, product whatever it might be that you support.

Customer B:  Clearly upset by tone and emphasis, clearly outlines a problem he is having with something and expects immediate attention, but all the while remaining cool headed and respectfull.

Which customer do you serve better?  Personally Customer A can take a hike and cool down call me back when you have a semblance of rationale back.  (yeah I know big words too :smileyhappySMILEY  Customer B has my full attention.  And, please don't ride the fence here.  I've worked enough Help Desk to know better.  My point, its not the substance of a post, its the inflamatory remarks, as soon as the dev sees it.  Bah-bye, time to move on.

Again, personally I don't care what everyone's oppinion is, its the manner in which you deliver it,

no matter how crude or raw someones post is, it does offer some benifit to a dev.  If I was running beta software or an application/game tester I would expect feedback in example B style of feedback.  Since the game has gone live and sony cannot filter who plays it, it is reasonable that they can expect both forms of feedback.

Again, could care less of the vocabulary used, its just a matter of respect, show more get more, show less get less.  Same lesson I emphasize with my kids. 

 


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Old 02-08-2006, 08:18 PM   #68
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My responses in red. 

GoNomar wrote:

If I was a college science teacher I would expect example B on my homework and tests.  On a video game that does not require an education to play.... either one will suffice.  If the issue raises the attention of enough players either of the A or B category the Devs will look at it.  The assumption that devs only look at college quality posts I don't believe to be true.Regardless of the environment, the Devs are human just like everyone else, calling the pieces of sh-Garbage, by human nature, category A will result in the Devs skipping right past it and moving on, looking for a Post B.  So why not try and focus on Example B from the get-go. 

If one person flames and threatens to cancel yes they may ignore it.  If 200 paying accounts are in jeopardy you can bet they will take it to heart reguardless of the tone of the post.  Its all about the $$.

Just because someone does not know how to hold a conversation well, or prove a point well does not mean thier input was not valuable to a dev standpoint. It gives them an idea of the scope of the problem, I.E. how many people are effected.  Also gives the devs a ballpark figure on how this problem is effecting that individuals personal game enjoyment.You clearly missed the entire point of the post......it was a retort to commentalong the lines of "Aquality post, or just one that agrees with your oppinion"  So you took my comments out of context of the point I was trying to make.  I don't care if its sugar coated or what the idea is, flaming Devs, mods other classes, and Rangers for that matter, just makes one look juvenile. 

This is all opinion based.  What one person would call whining another would call sticking up for themselves. 

You mentioned you were in Help Desk, let me ask you a question then:

Customer A: Calls you screaming bloody murder, swearing calling your mother ungodly things becuase he is upset at your company, product whatever it might be that you support.

Customer B:  Clearly upset by tone and emphasis, clearly outlines a problem he is having with something and expects immediate attention, but all the while remaining cool headed and respectfull.

Which customer do you serve better?  Personally Customer A can take a hike and cool down call me back when you have a semblance of rationale back.  (yeah I know big words too :smileyhappySMILEY  Customer B has my full attention.  And, please don't ride the fence here.  I've worked enough Help Desk to know better.  My point, its not the substance of a post, its the inflamatory remarks, as soon as the dev sees it.  Bah-bye, time to move on.

Again, personally I don't care what everyone's oppinion is, its the manner in which you deliver it,

I work Customer Support not a generic help desk with internal buisness customers.  I touch and work with Irate customers day in and out. While I agree that I prefer working with calm collective customers I cannot agree that calm customers get better service.  In fact I would disagree with you and more often the calm person often gets pushed aside to put out forest fires with account buisness on the line.

no matter how crude or raw someones post is, it does offer some benifit to a dev.  If I was running beta software or an application/game tester I would expect feedback in example B style of feedback.  Since the game has gone live and sony cannot filter who plays it, it is reasonable that they can expect both forms of feedback.

Again, could care less of the vocabulary used, its just a matter of respect, show more get more, show less get less.  Same lesson I emphasize with my kids. 

This line of thinking is opinionated and rooted from your upbringing and/or personal beliefs.  For example New Yorkers are very blunt in communicating to the point most would say they are rude and vulgar.  I believe that rudeness is sometimes mistaken for blunt honesty.  New Yorker expresses his true feelings in far fewer words making him a very efficient communicator than some one that tip toes worrying about sensitivity issues.

For the record:  I also teach my kids to show respect. 



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Old 02-08-2006, 08:21 PM   #69
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BtilTheMage wrote:
"F A N B O I"
 
That word really is painful to read.  Use a Y for the love of God.

Btil! you still around? :smileyvery-happy: come now, roll a ranger! you like our boards so much! and you know we're better! :smileytongue:

as for fanboi: that term is sometimes written like that, although the spelling is wrong.

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Old 02-08-2006, 08:22 PM   #70
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Back when I did customer service and tech support (thank God I do data entry now), if they swore at us we were in full right to hang up on them.
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Old 02-08-2006, 08:40 PM   #71
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Too late, I rolled an SK and took up the...ermmm...bad fight I guess.  But I'll keep in touch. :smileytongue:
 
No more balance talk on the Ranger forum for me though.
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Old 02-08-2006, 08:44 PM   #72
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TaleraRis wrote:
Back when I did customer service and tech support (thank God I do data entry now), if they swore at us we were in full right to hang up on them.

So true So true!  Sometimes I wish I did not work support.  But, alas I have developed thick skin and can detatch myself from getting envolved.

I too can hang up if someone swears out right swears, but cannot for rudeness.  In the forumns there mechanics in place where one can't technically swear.  But anyway I'm talking about multimillion dollar buisness accounts that I work with. A little different than a 15  dollar a month subscriptions.  But if enough people lose interest in the game... 15 dollars adds up.

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Old 02-08-2006, 08:57 PM   #73
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Guys you still on the top of the DPS ladder? I dont understand whats the big issue.
 
 
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:07 PM   #74
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Zodian wrote:
Guys you still on the top of the DPS ladder? I dont understand whats the big issue.
 
 

I agree things are not that bad. 

I think the main discusion now is people right to post when they feel the change effected them.  Alot of folks that were venting about the changes were attacked for posting thier opinion.

I would like to see everyones opinion, not just popular opinion.  I think this is the main debate now.

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Old 02-08-2006, 09:08 PM   #75
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Siphar wrote:
Strip the feather from my hat and PLuck the gut from my bow SMILEY
 
Its a dark day for all rangers roaming and pillaging norrath... 2nd Feb '06 aka ''DARK DAY'' is the day when Rangers became normal everyday characters in Norrath once again. Sure we can retell stories of old how once mighty Rangers struck fear into the hearts of their foes, soloing various named and instances while not even breaking a sweat.
 
Today... the fear has been [Removed for Content] from our bows. Stream is now just another CA and our str rings are permanent. Our proc'ing weapons cease to exists (PGT etc)..
 
/lowers head in shame... takes cap off and cries...
 
- 60 Nerf'd ranger
- 57 pally
- Level 3 new char...

 I think this s a little bit to extreme. You guys still at the top of the DPS ladder. tell me how much did your DPS drop? 10% 20%.. Darn man your DPS still at least 15% than any other class.
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:09 PM   #76
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Im blind, im blind............who spiked the gnoll bite with gin?

Slight side note, Why don't we have sunglasses in game?Ok, enough pickin on, what do we really lose here. Armor procing on bows (bad) poisons procing more (IMO good) melee weapons procing off of bow (understandable).............am I missing something here? I think that is all.

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Old 02-08-2006, 09:41 PM   #77
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jarlaxle888 wrote:

BtilTheMage wrote:
"F A N B O I"
 
That word really is painful to read.  Use a Y for the love of God.

Btil! you still around? :smileyvery-happy: come now, roll a ranger! you like our boards so much! and you know we're better! :smileytongue:

as for fanboi: that term is sometimes written like that, although the spelling is wrong.

---------------------------Ryilan Nightbreeze ---------------------------


Aye Btil is now an honorary RANGER.  Since he has surpased most ranger in post count in thier own forumns.  I think you brought up some good points as some of the counter arguments as well.  A good healthy debate.
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Old 02-09-2006, 01:24 AM   #78
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Niuan wrote:

TaleraRis wrote:
Back when I did customer service and tech support (thank God I do data entry now), if they swore at us we were in full right to hang up on them.

So true So true!  Sometimes I wish I did not work support.  But, alas I have developed thick skin and can detatch myself from getting envolved.

I too can hang up if someone swears out right swears, but cannot for rudeness.  In the forumns there mechanics in place where one can't technically swear.  But anyway I'm talking about multimillion dollar buisness accounts that I work with. A little different than a 15  dollar a month subscriptions.  But if enough people lose interest in the game... 15 dollars adds up.


Handling rudeness is fun. You just keep repeating what you're telling them SMILEY
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Old 02-09-2006, 05:05 AM   #79
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Siphar wrote:
Strip the feather from my hat and PLuck the gut from my bow
 
Its a dark day for all rangers roaming and pillaging norrath... 2nd Feb '06 aka ''DARK DAY'' is the day when Rangers became normal everyday characters in Norrath once again. Sure we can retell stories of old how once mighty Rangers struck fear into the hearts of their foes, soloing various named and instances while not even breaking a sweat.
 
Today... the fear has been [Removed for Content] from our bows. Stream is now just another CA and our str rings are permanent. Our proc'ing weapons cease to exists (PGT etc)..
 
/lowers head in shame... takes cap off and cries...
 
- 60 Nerf'd ranger
- 57 pally
- Level 3 new char...

 I think this s a little bit to extreme. You guys still at the top of the DPS ladder. tell me how much did your DPS drop? 10% 20%.. Darn man your DPS still at least 15% than any other class.
 

 
 
This was actually a reply i posted on the brig forum- a rather "tongue in cheek" semi sarcastic reply i agree. I sumed up my genuine thoughts on sevral other threads- which summed up to: adapt to new changes and play the game how it was supposed to be played. We were overpowered before and now we sit neatly in tier one dps and rightly so considering our lack of utility etc.
 
I only have a real issue with the lack of choice of bows, the prismatic 2.0 and other broken aspects of LU19 which included the armour not proc'ing etc.
 
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:08 PM   #80
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TaleraRis wrote:

Niuan wrote:

TaleraRis wrote:
Back when I did customer service and tech support (thank God I do data entry now), if they swore at us we were in full right to hang up on them.

So true So true!  Sometimes I wish I did not work support.  But, alas I have developed thick skin and can detatch myself from getting envolved.

I too can hang up if someone swears out right swears, but cannot for rudeness.  In the forumns there mechanics in place where one can't technically swear.  But anyway I'm talking about multimillion dollar buisness accounts that I work with. A little different than a 15  dollar a month subscriptions.  But if enough people lose interest in the game... 15 dollars adds up.


Handling rudeness is fun. You just keep repeating what you're telling them SMILEY

LOL that explains a lot dear. 

Just kidding /hug

The client site I'm working at now is a call center and they are not allowed to terminate the calls for any reason.  They get some pretty angry, belligerent customers sometimes...   when they figure out that the agents can't hang up on them, it can get so out of hand.  One time we were all gathered around listening to this old guy go off for like 20 minutes.  I learned a few new words/phrases that day, and I almost blacked out because I was laughing so hard that I couldn't freekin breathe. hee hee

 

 

Message Edited by GrayStorm on 02-09-200608:10 AM

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Old 02-09-2006, 09:10 PM   #81
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Niuan wrote:

Zodian wrote:
Guys you still on the top of the DPS ladder? I dont understand whats the big issue.
 
 

I agree things are not that bad. 

I think the main discusion now is people right to post when they feel the change effected them.  Alot of folks that were venting about the changes were attacked for posting thier opinion.

I would like to see everyones opinion, not just popular opinion.  I think this is the main debate now.


I think the point has always been that it's not about opinions. I'm all for someone saying "I think this because blah blah blah" and someone else saying "no, I think you're wrong because blah blah blah". However, when I see people coming into the Ranger forum and attacking the devs and attacking SOE, I think about the work we have done to get the Rangers up to THIS point. It wasn't because we attacked. It was because we were rational and worked through the problems. We analyzed the situation. We didn't say "dark days, oh woe is me". We said "hey devs, this isn't working and here's why we think that". You can present your argument like a nice steak on fine china or you can present it served in a ashtray full of cigars. Which one do you think will get digested easier?The reason we have pointed people to "the door" is because we know the results of their posts. Ask the Guardians how far they've gotten. We took almost a year of talk to get the Rangers where most of us thought they should be. But we arrived and it wasn't through trashing people. I'm not a carebear by any means but I'm sensible enough to know how to talk to people and get them to see my point.
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:26 PM   #82
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Cronon wrote:

Niuan wrote:

Zodian wrote:
Guys you still on the top of the DPS ladder? I dont understand whats the big issue.
 
 

I agree things are not that bad. 

I think the main discusion now is people right to post when they feel the change effected them.  Alot of folks that were venting about the changes were attacked for posting thier opinion.

I would like to see everyones opinion, not just popular opinion.  I think this is the main debate now.


I think the point has always been that it's not about opinions. I'm all for someone saying "I think this because blah blah blah" and someone else saying "no, I think you're wrong because blah blah blah". However, when I see people coming into the Ranger forum and attacking the devs and attacking SOE, I think about the work we have done to get the Rangers up to THIS point. It wasn't because we attacked. It was because we were rational and worked through the problems. We analyzed the situation. We didn't say "dark days, oh woe is me". We said "hey devs, this isn't working and here's why we think that". You can present your argument like a nice steak on fine china or you can present it served in a ashtray full of cigars. Which one do you think will get digested easier?The reason we have pointed people to "the door" is because we know the results of their posts. Ask the Guardians how far they've gotten. We took almost a year of talk to get the Rangers where most of us thought they should be. But we arrived and it wasn't through trashing people. I'm not a carebear by any means but I'm sensible enough to know how to talk to people and get them to see my point.
Say whatever you want buddy, there's just no excuse for attacking people who come in here to express their feelings. 
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:57 PM   #83
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That's a pretty poor excuse for acting like a child.
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:29 PM   #84
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Fennir wrote:That's a pretty poor excuse for acting like a child.

maybe I am a child smart guy
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:31 PM   #85
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Color me surprised.
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:38 PM   #86
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Fennir wrote:Color me surprised.

I like you.
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:07 AM   #87
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GrayStorm wrote:

TaleraRis wrote:

Niuan wrote:

TaleraRis wrote:
Back when I did customer service and tech support (thank God I do data entry now), if they swore at us we were in full right to hang up on them.

So true So true!  Sometimes I wish I did not work support.  But, alas I have developed thick skin and can detatch myself from getting envolved.

I too can hang up if someone swears out right swears, but cannot for rudeness.  In the forumns there mechanics in place where one can't technically swear.  But anyway I'm talking about multimillion dollar buisness accounts that I work with. A little different than a 15  dollar a month subscriptions.  But if enough people lose interest in the game... 15 dollars adds up.


Handling rudeness is fun. You just keep repeating what you're telling them SMILEY

LOL that explains a lot dear. 

Just kidding /hug

The client site I'm working at now is a call center and they are not allowed to terminate the calls for any reason.  They get some pretty angry, belligerent customers sometimes...   when they figure out that the agents can't hang up on them, it can get so out of hand.  One time we were all gathered around listening to this old guy go off for like 20 minutes.  I learned a few new words/phrases that day, and I almost blacked out because I was laughing so hard that I couldn't freekin breathe. hee hee

 

 

Message Edited by GrayStorm on 02-09-200608:10 AM


I was the team leader for a call center. We were allowed to hang up if they started into cursing at you.

What always amused me were the tattletales. I answered phones just like everyone else and many times I would be unable to help someone because it was out of policy. So I would politely explain this again and again and again and they would get angry and hang up.

Then they would call back and want to speak to a supervisor. As I was the supervisor at the time, they got me. So the call is transferred over and they're telling me all this stuff about how I acted and how I cursed them or was very rude or such and such. And in my mind I'm laughing my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off because they didn't pay any attention to my name and they don't realize the person they were talking to and telling all these lies about is ME.

I never did explain it, either. I told them I was sorry that happened, I would speak to the person, blah blah blah, then go tell my co-workers what happened so we could all laugh at that customer's stupidity.

The funny thing is this didn't just happen once. It happened constantly. Was hilarious.

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Old 02-10-2006, 01:13 AM   #88
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GrayStorm wrote:

Say whatever you want buddy, there's just no excuse for attacking people who come in here to express their feelings. 


I'm very blunt IRL. I express my feelings quite clearly. I can be quite a hothead. When my boyfriend and I speak on a subject, he is the Good Cop. I am the Bad Cop.

But I also know when to use tact and be constructive. I know people are angry, but anger and nasty words aren't the solution to problems. The devs have shown they do take what we say into consideration in the past, but only if we show we are mature and logical in what we suggest.

I can't fault those who "showed people to the door" honestly because while you defend the right of others to come here and express their feelings, I defend the other party's right to not want their forum turned into a flamefest and be able to maintain a formula that has been proven to work.

Nobody is saying they can't have an opinion. They're merely saying be adult about it, or just go away because they aren't helping if they aren't adult about it. I've seen many dissenting opinions of LU19 around these boards and in the ranger channel not just from those who are vocal now, but old and established members. So those who say "put it maturely" aren't for the LU. They just express their feelings on the topic a different and more appropriate way.

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Old 02-11-2006, 11:18 PM   #89
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TaleraRis wrote:


GrayStorm wrote:

Say whatever you want buddy, there's just no excuse for attacking people who come in here to express their feelings. 


I'm very blunt IRL. I express my feelings quite clearly. I can be quite a hothead. When my boyfriend and I speak on a subject, he is the Good Cop. I am the Bad Cop.

But I also know when to use tact and be constructive. I know people are angry, but anger and nasty words aren't the solution to problems. The devs have shown they do take what we say into consideration in the past, but only if we show we are mature and logical in what we suggest.

I can't fault those who "showed people to the door" honestly because while you defend the right of others to come here and express their feelings, I defend the other party's right to not want their forum turned into a flamefest and be able to maintain a formula that has been proven to work.

Nobody is saying they can't have an opinion. They're merely saying be adult about it, or just go away because they aren't helping if they aren't adult about it. I've seen many dissenting opinions of LU19 around these boards and in the ranger channel not just from those who are vocal now, but old and established members. So those who say "put it maturely" aren't for the LU. They just express their feelings on the topic a different and more appropriate way.


yeah yeah, let's all just be friends.

I was bitter about not being able to solo as effectively with SoA gimped, and with the expansion coming... but truth be told, I never solo anymore.  I love the way stream casts so fast now.  Very nice.  I'm crossing my fingers on the poison changes in hopes that they will not hurt us too badly.

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Old 02-12-2006, 05:19 PM   #90
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GrayStorm wrote:
Say whatever you want buddy, there's just no excuse for attacking people who come in here to express their feelings. 

all very well and good but when your feelings are along the lines of ' [insert long line of explitives that you would not want you mother to hear] you SOE!!!!!!!' it is not really terribly constructive feelings.

 

After much time on forums, i have noticed that swearing at the people who make the changes does not, strangely enough, make them feel terribly sorry for you.  Swearing seven kinds of hell at SOE for doing something that you do not agree with is not going to get you anywhere.  I understand that you need to vent frustration, but doing it on these forums will not halp you in the slightest.  That kind of thing is what stress balls are for.

A nerf is never good, but i prefer to think of this more as a rebalance, just a couple of nights ago i was fighting alongside a ranger who managed to get themselves aggroed and killed in every single encounter.  The DPS still seems to be there...

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