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Old 12-20-2005, 11:41 PM   #1
Khevy

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Wow, Wizards really hate us!  Didn't realize how bad it was till I read one of the threads in the Combat forum.  I understand their concern that they should be more in line with us, but their spells dont' cost them gold like it costs us. 7-15 GP for a T6 poison adds up, especially if you liek to be prepared.  Not to mention arrow costs.  Bring em in line but make em pay 10 gold a day when they log in SMILEY  Just kidding.  SOE should give them a little boost, but not near as much as they want.
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:09 AM   #2
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i know some awesome wizzys and warlocks that are right up top in dps but there seems to be loads that arnt and always want to be the best at everything from soloing mobs to raiding, i know they need to be adjusted but them constantly pointing the finger at other classes saying nerf them pisses me off
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:18 AM   #3
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Just keep in mind that this sentiment comes from a very small percentage of PLAYERS, not any one class. Wizards don't hate us, trust me - we debuff heat resist, how could they hate us?? SMILEY

The best we can do as a class community is turn the other cheek to the hate and wish them luck in getting the legitimate issues addressed. And there ARE legitimate issues, but they (and we) lose sight of them in the finger-pointing and nerf demands.

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Old 12-21-2005, 01:54 AM   #4
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Jay42 is right on target.  If you would like to see hate for other classes take a look in the Guardian Forums.  My main is a Guardian and I still drift back to the ranger forum to see if I can help with my limited ranger knowledge-why you ask well everyone here is just plain nice and have alot of class.  Always positive no matter what comes down the road.
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Old 12-21-2005, 01:55 AM   #5
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Jay is right.  It's a small part of the people that play wizards that are upset.  They think just being a wizard means they should automatically do the best dps.  The ones that aren't complaining about us are the ones that know how to play their class and can match/beat us for DPS when they want to.  Just ignore them till they go away.  The dev's have rangers right where they want us, which is why we haven't had any significant changes since LU13.  In 5 updates we've had a few minor tweaks but nothing catastrophic.  We are now working as intended and have a great bunch of folks behind those rangers you see in game which is why we churn out the numbers we do.
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Old 12-21-2005, 02:05 AM   #6
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I <3 guardians.

Assuage master 1 = 31% less hate for me on raids.   Guardians are the best :smileywink:

 

 

As for all the haters.  It just shows the maturity level certain classes attrack.  Just glad I can look back when the classes crying the most now were off solo'ing instances and named.  And we and the other scout classes kept to post trying to improve our classes vs making [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] posts trying to nerf them.

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Old 12-21-2005, 02:42 AM   #7
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Any gamer who doesn't know how their class works will hate anyone in the same category who does know what they're doing.  I play both a wizard and ranger (love dps), and both are about equal in their power...just different methods to get to the same point.
 
I remember all the hate Infiltrators had in DAoC, but Shadowblades and Rangers were just as nasty...these types of complaints will never end...the only "class" in the game that I can see who have any right to complain are carpenters :smileyvery-happy:
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:38 AM   #8
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Well for a start, maybe you need to rethink how you interact with other classes on their boards and not automatically assume that the hidden agenda behind any ask for a fix of other classes is to have an indirect or direct ranger nerf.

Since I am leaving for christmas break I will not be able to respond to any flames that might follow this message.

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Old 12-21-2005, 08:26 AM   #9
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You're not quite grasping it yet.  We do not care about this argument anymore.  We fail to see a purpose to it, and none of us here care if the wizards hate us.  We will take what the devs give us, and we'll adapt and carry on.  If I find something that I would like changed I base if off of how its affecting me, not because it needs to be better than someone else.  Quivers, we got them, there was much rejoicing.  Poisons are fixed, as is Stream, and there was much rejoicing.  We are happy here, and the majority of us, just do not care if there is hate in the other forums.  If you want help with rangers, ask us, but if you want to complain about class balance, take it somewhere else.  I personally do not care if wizards could do twice as much damage as me.  Its just not important to argue with any of them about it.  This isn't the place for wizard/ranger hate fests, and we're through with it.
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:36 PM   #10
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I find it humerous how a class plays in a game somehow changes the personality of the entire group.  I have a bit of knowledge for you 'classy' and 'mature' rangers SMILEY   The Warlock boards were exactly like yours is now, before LU13.   Everyone was polite, helpful, and turned a shoulder to hate threads.  Why?  because everyone was happy with their class and their role.  But, we were overpowered, and it had to be changed.  I wish it wasn't as 'aoe specialists' but whatever, another thread. SMILEY 
 
There is an issue with balance whether you want to admit it or not.  How does it affect me as a warlock?  I am tier 2 and t3 dps, rarely t1 on group encounters.  Even on those I get beat out by rangers every time.  This is not right.  It's always wizard vs whoever, I don't want you other t1 classes to forget that us warlocks are supposed to be the king of aoe damage, giving up single target dps, and we're not fully where we should be. 
 
poison procs just do too much damage, period.  and with long delay bows, they proc way more often than they do for other rogue types.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:15 PM   #11
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The_Wind wrote:You're not quite grasping it yet.  We do not care about this argument anymore.  We fail to see a purpose to it, and none of us here care if the wizards hate us.  We will take what the devs give us, and we'll adapt and carry on.  If I find something that I would like changed I base if off of how its affecting me, not because it needs to be better than someone else.  Quivers, we got them, there was much rejoicing.  Poisons are fixed, as is Stream, and there was much rejoicing.  We are happy here, and the majority of us, just do not care if there is hate in the other forums.  If you want help with rangers, ask us, but if you want to complain about class balance, take it somewhere else.  I personally do not care if wizards could do twice as much damage as me.  Its just not important to argue with any of them about it.  This isn't the place for wizard/ranger hate fests, and we're through with it.

Here here, well said that man. When I group with Wizards they usually seems like decent chaps and often out DPS me.  Fact is a lot of the people complaining don't have the best gear or can't play their char.  If they are being trashed by a Ranger chances are that Ranger has [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good gear and is - as the little plastic people who play CS say - 1337.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:49 PM   #12
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My point is this, if we are all supposed to be T1 damage, then why complain if we are all doing similer damage?  I think the problem is people have certain expectations and want to be hands down the best.  Being similer is not good enough for them.  Now I do think that all T1 need to be brought up to Similer damage, but realize that someone is always going to be better no matter what.  Especially with the the differences in spells and Ca's.

One thing to keep in mind.  For a Ranger to be T1 DPS we cannot be in melee.  My damage drops off significantly when I am in Melee combat.

Also, with the latest live update our second hand weapon does not get the poison proc which further lowers melee DPS.  So now we have been efectivly limited in the way we play our toon.  We must have a tank that can hold aggro for us otherwise we cannot bring our bow into play.  There is no need to complain about this though.  I still enjoy playing my Ranger.

 

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Old 12-21-2005, 08:49 PM   #13
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Kazimer wrote:
I find it humerous how a class plays in a game somehow changes the personality of the entire group.  I have a bit of knowledge for you 'classy' and 'mature' rangers SMILEY   The Warlock boards were exactly like yours is now, before LU13.   Everyone was polite, helpful, and turned a shoulder to hate threads.  Why?  because everyone was happy with their class and their role.  But, we were overpowered, and it had to be changed.  I wish it wasn't as 'aoe specialists' but whatever, another thread. SMILEY 
 
There is an issue with balance whether you want to admit it or not.  How does it affect me as a warlock?  I am tier 2 and t3 dps, rarely t1 on group encounters.  Even on those I get beat out by rangers every time.  This is not right.  It's always wizard vs whoever, I don't want you other t1 classes to forget that us warlocks are supposed to be the king of aoe damage, giving up single target dps, and we're not fully where we should be. 
 
poison procs just do too much damage, period.  and with long delay bows, they proc way more often than they do for other rogue types.

If anything, the ranger boards have been less positive post-CU than they were before (when we were severely underpowered), although I must say that very recently they are starting to resemble the ranger forums of old more and more. I won't address your other statements, as they will only lead to disagreements.
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Old 12-21-2005, 09:35 PM   #14
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Not a matter of us being overpowered now and not wanting to admit it.  Before LU13, you may have been over powered, I don't know, never played a warlock.  However, before LU13, we were very underpowered, almost to the point of barely being able to survive, anything.  So anything better than what we used to be, and we are happy.  I'm not trying to be better than anyone, or be a better man than anyone, I'm just really tired of having to defend myself, when it really doesn't matter.  If warlocks, and wizards feel they need more damage to keep up with us rangers, then by all means, give them some more.  If you think us rangers need to be toned back to allow wizards/warlocks to keep up with us, then again, scale us back.  ANYTHING we have now is better than we had pre-LU13.  And I as a ranger am thankful for what I have. edited for grammar

Message Edited by The_Wind on 12-21-2005 09:39 AM

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Old 12-21-2005, 09:41 PM   #15
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lol...and I thought I'd bring out some anger in you.  You proved me wrong  SMILEY
 
I'm sure down the road everything will flip several times over with every class being a fotm.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:05 PM   #16
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I think the point you're really missing in all of this is that, in general, those of us who play rangers and post on these boards, don't care what others say about us anymore.  Most of us are tired of defending ourselves to people who only listen to part of what is said, so that they can turn it around and use it against us.  Come here looking to make people mad by posting things like that and get a big flame war going, and you'll be disappointed, a lot.
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:11 PM   #17
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Anyone Who plays a ranger is used to being commented on, told old stupid EQ Live jokes like "Bind here often" etc. You will find most of us that play a Ranger play it for the fun. We realy could care less what our damage output is. As long as we are making a dent we are happy. In order to play a ranger you have to be laid back, and have a good sense of humor.... A good example of this is my Signature. SMILEY As long as I am still called a ranger i will rule my pants!
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Old 12-21-2005, 11:57 PM   #18
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Kazimer if you go back and look through this forum from the start of the game you'll notice it hasn't changed much at all.  We were pretty much the same pre DoF as we are now.  And yes pre DoF our class was extremely sub par.  Sure there were posts asking for fixes and help to make Ranger's at least a semi desired class.  The difference is we never made thread after thread using other classes as examples of how unbalanced we were.

Maybe I was wrong in the past pointing out things that could be bettered for my class and should have spent all my time ripping on other classes that could do more.  Sadly I did let all the negative attacking of my class posts effect me and sucked me into them.  Maybe if all the attacks were spread out to all the high raid dps classes I wouldn't have.  For some reason my class has been decided to be singled out.  Which I find funny as it gets out dps'd by several other classes on raids consistently.  But I'm officially done with that.

 

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Old 12-22-2005, 01:07 AM   #19
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I <3 my ranger colleagues. Combat the hate with ranja love! SMILEY

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Old 12-22-2005, 02:22 AM   #20
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On a practical, non raiding level, once in game and actually playing, I have never, through dozens of both pick up groups and guild groups, had an issue with group effectiveness being seriously affected by which DPS classes we had. In other words, if there was a warlock, wizard, ranger, or some other combination of scouts and mages I never have had one of the mages comment "Gee, we have a Ranger, this isn't fair to me and I can't have any fun in this group because the Ranger here is going to out-DPS me." The controversy seems to be in the forums. Haven't seen it in the game. This is subjective of course, it's just my experience. And maybe it's very different for the top tier raiding players. But for the great masses, I just don't see how it affects your ability to have fun and group with other players if you're a mage. Like some better spoken Rangers who have posted earlier, this issue is long gone...it's just not important to focus on from an end-user perspective.
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Old 12-22-2005, 03:30 AM   #21
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Good points all. This just isn't an issue for most people. That's not to say that wizards, warlocks, and assassins are all perfect and should never have their problems fixed, but trolling each others' class forums and attempting to start flames isn't going to accomplish that.
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:38 AM   #22
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It's easy to say "we don't care what people say about us" when you are on top.  Class balance is only an issue to those who are at the bottom of the balance. It's common knowledge Rangers and Conjurers own in the DPS department right now, there is bound to be resentment from other classes who are supposed to be up there (like Assassins and Sorcerers) but aren't.
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Old 12-22-2005, 05:09 AM   #23
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The game has been out for 13 months.  For the first nine months Rangers were at the bottom of the balance tree.  We got balanced the hard way, we worked for it.  We did not troll other class boards and whine like lost puppys
 
LU18 nerfed our DPS by reducing the poison procs and increasing the mob run speed.  If someone still can't out DPS a Ranger with their comparably equiped wizzy, then they never will and might want to consider giving up on trying to learn how to play their character.
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Old 12-22-2005, 05:55 AM   #24
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Sokolov it's not that it's the way they are going about it.  If you look at the Assassin's board vs the Wizards board you'll see two opposites.  Assassin's are working on fixing their class and get alot of support from other scout classes.  Big difference is they aren't trying to rip apart other classes while they do it.  To me there is a HUGE difference in how they are trying to work on things vs what the majority of the loud talking caster's.  Not all caster's are acting this way but the small minority working in a positive way to help their class are drowned by all the negative class attacking ones.
 
BTW simplest way yo fix Assassins would be to give them the same avoid AE skill the Brigands have.  It's the AE raid mobs they loose their dps on.  On all the others they are right there at the top with everyone else.
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Old 12-22-2005, 10:12 AM   #25
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This is my comment to the so called hate "hate" (even though I find the word hate a bit drastic to use in a game)

 

When you ask someone to be taken away something they rightfully see as their true place then you get hate.

 

If you dont have enough then yes ask for more but do not ask for more by asking for making others less, its a poor excuse.

 

As it is now I think rangers and assassins are t1 dps, asking us to be less would also make us t2 or t3 dps and would not solve the problem.

 

What you wizzards want is a solving to your problems and not call for taking down other classess so you get balance.

You wont get balance by nerfing rangers only more problems. What you want is you to be better and in right place.

 

I see the problems with wizzards being half dps in some fights. But your solution is not for us to be half too, the solution is to take away what makes you a half player.

 

 

I hope I dont need to explain myself more.

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Old 12-22-2005, 11:04 AM   #26
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First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased.  That does NOT work in the long run.  You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf.  If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.  It's not "nice," but it should be done.  Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it.  But nerfs they cry for weeks.  There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes.   And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me.  As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 12-21-2005 10:10 PM

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Old 12-22-2005, 11:14 AM   #27
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First of. Assassins are not bad dps if played well.

 

My guildie assassin is constantly even parsing with me and that is ranging for 1000 to 1300 dps for both of us.

We play as well both of us and have as similar equipment. Assassin complaining because they cant do more than 600 dps amazes me.

 

Secondly doing 1300 dps is where I think we should be as well as wizzards should but arent where mobs are either heat or cold immune.

 

Maybe you think all should do 300 dps and you would be happy? No I dont think you would.

 

 

Why ask to nerf rangers when we are t1 dps and lowering us would make us either t2 or t3 dps.

 

 

What you should really ask is to make every dps class go down to 400 dps max and no raid mobs would go down.

 

 

I can see why you get "hate" when you merely whining about others having it too good when you really have it crappy.

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Old 12-22-2005, 11:19 AM   #28
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This is a post of mine from earlier, I'm gonna copy and paste it here, and then give you the link.

I'm through with them.  All of them.  I'm a ranger.  I am above this.  I will take what is dealt, and I will make the best of it.  I will overcome such petty desires.  I am a Ranger, and I will live simply as such.  We did it once before, when wizards were unbeatable, we continued to strive hoping for greatness.  We went from groups despising us, to groups rejoicing at our arrival.  If we get nerfed, we will take it in stride, make the most of it, and still show them we are greater.  Its what we do, survive.  The only difference is we, as Rangers, will continue to stick together.  Let the petty squable over who should be greater.  We have better things to do than pity the weak minded and jealous.  Let them drown in their own sorrows.  Some of the masses cannot be saved, its not evil, its just fact.
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:17 PM   #29
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Sokolov wrote:
First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased.  That does NOT work in the long run.  You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf.  If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.  It's not "nice," but it should be done.  Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it.  But nerfs they cry for weeks.  There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes.   And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me.  As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 12-21-2005 10:10 PM


Ah, so when wizards were top DPS you were asking for a reduction?
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Old 12-22-2005, 06:17 PM   #30
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Mentla wrote:

Sokolov wrote:
First, assassins don't come close to ranger DPS in my experience (tier 6), sorry. Second, you are another victim of the nerfphobia virus that wants things only to be increased.  That does NOT work in the long run.  You won't get balance simply by increasing classes, that ultimately creates imbalance where players are more powerful than they should be and they have to do a mass nerf.  If a class is relatively too powerful, it deserves a nerf.  It's not "nice," but it should be done.  Avoiding nerfs just because it's not nice doesn't do anyone any good. The thing is that people forget about increases in a day or two and feel entitled to it.  But nerfs they cry for weeks.  There is some weird kind of entitlement mentality players seem to have with their classes.   And it has become "politically correct" to preface any criticisms of class balance with "I am not asking for a nerf, just increase people!" It's completely ridiculous if you ask me.  As if there wasn't already an overabundance of DPS which trivializes healing in non-high end raid encounters already.

Message Edited by Sokolov on 12-21-2005 10:10 PM


Ah, so when wizards were top DPS you were asking for a reduction?

I am not asking for anything, I don't have access to the kind of data I'd need to make that kind of call!  I am just sick of this nerf-phobia.
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