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Old 05-21-2012, 09:14 PM   #61
Zivgar

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[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

 So if you get your skill up to 100 then you need 330 more skill ups to get. If only using T1 and T2 rares it would then take you roughly 1650 rare items to level up transmuting. How is that viable?

Hehe, it's perfectly viable.  Given that back before the transmuting/adorning change, it's how most of us did it.  It was the easiest, cheapest way to get the job done.  (I think I still have a box of left over Tier 1 rares because it didn't take as many combines as expected.)   But on the other hand, while it was viable, nobody's claiming it was any fun.

But while I object to making handcrafted gear transmutable into fragments for all the reasons mentioned upthread, I don't think I object to making it transmutable for skillups alone. 

The only reason that I could not logically explain was the fact that teasured items would lose some value (Again seems like SoE is phasing out teasured items) and that this may effect the other tiers T2 - T7 since these tiers are pretty much ghost towns. I really don't see how these things that could unbalance the game be that big of a deal. teasured items that are getting phased out and tiers that are pretty much a ghost town. So which one of these is the reason you don't like being able to get fragments from a HC item? Either way some one else did give an idea that you may like better, and than it make HC items when transmuted to be nothing (common), 1 fragment (rare), 2 fragments (ultra rare). Even with my idea the best way to get fragments would still be to down convert powders, so I guess I don't see why it is such a big deal to create a new source of fragments.

Make it transmutable into nothing, with a 20% chance of a skillup, and I don't think it'll throw anything out of balance game wise. I also don't think it's necessary, as transmuting is easy enough to skill up anyway once you get past level 10.  I'm not overly fond of the idea, but I don't find it objectionable either...

You are missing my point, why is it easy past lvl 10? because the content is so easy to farm, but a crafter does not farm mobs, that is the adventuring part of the game. You say crafting MC items is viable, but give an example from 5+ years ago. Now saying what is practical or not, is a matter of opinion, but I will never call harvesting 500 to 1500 rares practical. Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use. So again if you are a armorer then you can only harvest hard metal rares, I am sorry but to me that would take forever. That would be the opposite of practical. All I want is to give crafters a way to level up transmuting and I don't see MC items achieving that in the current system of the game.

You harvested over 1500 rares just to level up transmuting? How long did that take you? I will admit I have never done it that way, so I will have to take your word on it. Does it take you less than a day? When was the last time you did this?

I guess I am confused by your statement you are talking about back in the day when transmuting and adorning was pretty much the same thing? That was what 5 years ago? So you are saying it was viable back when overland zones were filled with heroic mobs that took groups to kill?

I guess we have a different way to view what viable or practical means. Harvesting any where between 500 to 1500 rares does not seem practical to me. If you are a tradeskiller only harvesting nodes to get rares that your class can use until you get 500 to 1500 rares seem like it would take a lot of time. That is not practical to me. So I hope you can explain it to me why that is viable/practical.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:47 PM   #62
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Zivgar wrote:

Mermut wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

Currently there is no viable way to level up Transmuting for a Crafter.

Actually, there is. Harvest and craft mastercrafted items to transmute.

And lengedary items CAN transmute into fragments.

Legandary items CAN NOT transmute into fragments. http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Transmuting Look it up from this page. I only get powders and infusions from Legendary items. I do not recall ever getting fragments from a Legendary item. Sorry but that is wrong.

All of my toons transmute.. and all of the DoV+ gear is legendary. I've gotten fragements from those transmutes. The information on the wiki is dated/wrong.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:54 PM   #63
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Zivgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

 So if you get your skill up to 100 then you need 330 more skill ups to get. If only using T1 and T2 rares it would then take you roughly 1650 rare items to level up transmuting. How is that viable?

Hehe, it's perfectly viable.  Given that back before the transmuting/adorning change, it's how most of us did it.  It was the easiest, cheapest way to get the job done.  (I think I still have a box of left over Tier 1 rares because it didn't take as many combines as expected.)   But on the other hand, while it was viable, nobody's claiming it was any fun.

But while I object to making handcrafted gear transmutable into fragments for all the reasons mentioned upthread, I don't think I object to making it transmutable for skillups alone. 

The only reason that I could not logically explain was the fact that teasured items would lose some value (Again seems like SoE is phasing out teasured items) and that this may effect the other tiers T2 - T7 since these tiers are pretty much ghost towns. I really don't see how these things that could unbalance the game be that big of a deal. teasured items that are getting phased out and tiers that are pretty much a ghost town. So which one of these is the reason you don't like being able to get fragments from a HC item? Either way some one else did give an idea that you may like better, and than it make HC items when transmuted to be nothing (common), 1 fragment (rare), 2 fragments (ultra rare). Even with my idea the best way to get fragments would still be to down convert powders, so I guess I don't see why it is such a big deal to create a new source of fragments.

Make it transmutable into nothing, with a 20% chance of a skillup, and I don't think it'll throw anything out of balance game wise. I also don't think it's necessary, as transmuting is easy enough to skill up anyway once you get past level 10.  I'm not overly fond of the idea, but I don't find it objectionable either...

You are missing my point, why is it easy past lvl 10? because the content is so easy to farm, but a crafter does not farm mobs, that is the adventuring part of the game. You say crafting MC items is viable, but give an example from 5+ years ago. Now saying what is practical or not, is a matter of opinion, but I will never call harvesting 500 to 1500 rares practical. Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use. So again if you are a armorer then you can only harvest hard metal rares, I am sorry but to me that would take forever. That would be the opposite of practical. All I want is to give crafters a way to level up transmuting and I don't see MC items achieving that in the current system of the game.

You harvested over 1500 rares just to level up transmuting? How long did that take you? I will admit I have never done it that way, so I will have to take your word on it. Does it take you less than a day? When was the last time you did this?

I guess I am confused by your statement you are talking about back in the day when transmuting and adorning was pretty much the same thing? That was what 5 years ago? So you are saying it was viable back when overland zones were filled with heroic mobs that took groups to kill?

I guess we have a different way to view what viable or practical means. Harvesting any where between 500 to 1500 rares does not seem practical to me. If you are a tradeskiller only harvesting nodes to get rares that your class can use until you get 500 to 1500 rares seem like it would take a lot of time. That is not practical to me. So I hope you can explain it to me why that is viable/practical.

Probably just like everybody else that is serious about leveling transmuting he just bought the rares off of the broker. Everybody that is serious about transmuting uses the broker. Why? Because you can make money faster using the broker, and you can get what you want faster using the broker. Doing it all yourself just means your avoiding your strengths.

Every crafter can make money selling stuff. It just means paying attention to the market and taking commissions. Adventurers can always broker stuff for more gold than they can make from vendoring everything. Again, pay attention to what people buy on the broker to know what is vendor trash and what is broker gold.

Now use that gold to buy what you need for transmuting.

Implying that the only method to skill up transmuting involves a huge amount of farming on the transmuter's part ignores a core game mechanic. Ok, our free to play segment is left out in the cold but I think this is one of the many contributing factors that pushes them towards a gold subscription. The major point is the people who ask around about skilling up transmuting don't spend their time farming materials to transmute, they use the broker. Presenting farming as the major method of skilling up transmuting is misleading.

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Old 05-21-2012, 09:55 PM   #64
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All of my 90+ toons transmute and I have yet to get 1 fragment from any legendary items. I only get powders and infusions.

Any one else on have gotten fragments from legendary gear? Mermut and myself seem to have a disagreement SMILEY

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Old 05-21-2012, 11:11 PM   #65
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Meirril wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

 So if you get your skill up to 100 then you need 330 more skill ups to get. If only using T1 and T2 rares it would then take you roughly 1650 rare items to level up transmuting. How is that viable?

Hehe, it's perfectly viable.  Given that back before the transmuting/adorning change, it's how most of us did it.  It was the easiest, cheapest way to get the job done.  (I think I still have a box of left over Tier 1 rares because it didn't take as many combines as expected.)   But on the other hand, while it was viable, nobody's claiming it was any fun.

But while I object to making handcrafted gear transmutable into fragments for all the reasons mentioned upthread, I don't think I object to making it transmutable for skillups alone. 

The only reason that I could not logically explain was the fact that teasured items would lose some value (Again seems like SoE is phasing out teasured items) and that this may effect the other tiers T2 - T7 since these tiers are pretty much ghost towns. I really don't see how these things that could unbalance the game be that big of a deal. teasured items that are getting phased out and tiers that are pretty much a ghost town. So which one of these is the reason you don't like being able to get fragments from a HC item? Either way some one else did give an idea that you may like better, and than it make HC items when transmuted to be nothing (common), 1 fragment (rare), 2 fragments (ultra rare). Even with my idea the best way to get fragments would still be to down convert powders, so I guess I don't see why it is such a big deal to create a new source of fragments.

Make it transmutable into nothing, with a 20% chance of a skillup, and I don't think it'll throw anything out of balance game wise. I also don't think it's necessary, as transmuting is easy enough to skill up anyway once you get past level 10.  I'm not overly fond of the idea, but I don't find it objectionable either...

You are missing my point, why is it easy past lvl 10? because the content is so easy to farm, but a crafter does not farm mobs, that is the adventuring part of the game. You say crafting MC items is viable, but give an example from 5+ years ago. Now saying what is practical or not, is a matter of opinion, but I will never call harvesting 500 to 1500 rares practical. Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use. So again if you are a armorer then you can only harvest hard metal rares, I am sorry but to me that would take forever. That would be the opposite of practical. All I want is to give crafters a way to level up transmuting and I don't see MC items achieving that in the current system of the game.

You harvested over 1500 rares just to level up transmuting? How long did that take you? I will admit I have never done it that way, so I will have to take your word on it. Does it take you less than a day? When was the last time you did this?

I guess I am confused by your statement you are talking about back in the day when transmuting and adorning was pretty much the same thing? That was what 5 years ago? So you are saying it was viable back when overland zones were filled with heroic mobs that took groups to kill?

I guess we have a different way to view what viable or practical means. Harvesting any where between 500 to 1500 rares does not seem practical to me. If you are a tradeskiller only harvesting nodes to get rares that your class can use until you get 500 to 1500 rares seem like it would take a lot of time. That is not practical to me. So I hope you can explain it to me why that is viable/practical.

Probably just like everybody else that is serious about leveling transmuting he just bought the rares off of the broker. Everybody that is serious about transmuting uses the broker. Why? Because you can make money faster using the broker, and you can get what you want faster using the broker. Doing it all yourself just means your avoiding your strengths.

Every crafter can make money selling stuff. It just means paying attention to the market and taking commissions. Adventurers can always broker stuff for more gold than they can make from vendoring everything. Again, pay attention to what people buy on the broker to know what is vendor trash and what is broker gold.

Now use that gold to buy what you need for transmuting.

Implying that the only method to skill up transmuting involves a huge amount of farming on the transmuter's part ignores a core game mechanic. Ok, our free to play segment is left out in the cold but I think this is one of the many contributing factors that pushes them towards a gold subscription. The major point is the people who ask around about skilling up transmuting don't spend their time farming materials to transmute, they use the broker. Presenting farming as the major method of skilling up transmuting is misleading.

I have 4 max level transmuters. 2 were Max lvl adventure classes and I chose to farm the items. Didn't take that long, was pretty easy since they were raid geared. 1 toon I started at lvl 1 and leveled them to max adventure level while every chance I got I transmuted the items that I got from quests or mobs. My last toon was a combination of both. I was serious about leveling transmuting and I looked into buying those items. In my opinion they are over priced, so I chose to farm instead, but as an adventure class I had 2 choices, farm the items or buy it. Nothing wrong with either choices and I will agree that buying the items will get me what I want faster, but I don't like to buy, that is just the way I am.  I was very happy that I had a choice.

Now if I was a crafter would I have had the same choices? Yes I could still buy rares and make something. Well 1 of those 4 toons is a Provisioner. There is nothing I can make to even transmute but in T1 and T2 and those things would just be from a Wood Worker (Some one will have to correct me since I don't believe MC furiture is transmutable) So I would then have to harvest or buy over 1500 lumber rares to reach 375 to be able to transmute lvl 80 gear. If I was an armorer I would have to buy hard metal ore which is some of the more expensive rares on the market.  My point is that there is only one way and it involves buying the items needed. As you stated that is a faster way but at the cost of spending money. Nothing worng with that choice. I just want a more practical choice via HC items. This choice would take longer, but at least would be eqivelent to an adventure classes gaining xp while getting items to level up transmuting. This would make the choices the same for both crafters and adventurers as I still say that buying or harvesting over 500 to 1500 rares is not as practical of a choice as being able to farm items (Which will get you all of the adorning materials, whiling making MC items would get you the bottom 3 materials depending on the crafting class you are). One of my major points is to make the playing field between crafters and adventurers the same in terms of leveling up transmuting.

Now I assume you have read most of the posts here and I have never implied that farming is the only way. My point in that post was to stay away from buying items from the vendor because that is another choice, just as farming rares or items is another choice. You are right, I doubt if some one wanted to level transmuting via crafting that they would harvest the amount of rares need to get their skill high enough. They would probabely buy it. The point I was trying to make was how many rares would be needed to do that in the current system and if you did not want to buy them how many you would have to harvest and the time it would take. I wanted to show that claiming MC items was a practical means of leveling up transmuting is not true compared to the same thing that an adventurer has to do. I wanted to prove my point that HC items would be a more feasible means to this end. I think I did that. I never said it was the only way, one of the major points of this was to give more options to level up this skill. I don't care is 'Choice A' is easier or faster, I just want crafters to have a 'Choice B'. In the current system for crafters it is really just buy enough rares to get to the skill level they want.

I just want when some new player that asks what is the best way to level up transmuting if I am just a crafter, and instead of harvest or buy rares to make MC items, some one could say oh you can make HC items, but buying items or rares is the much faster way. At least then they have 2 choices and can pick the best one that fits their play style. That is the one of points of my idea. Never to create a system that HC item would be the best and only way.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:37 AM   #66
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EDIT: FYI: we cross posted.  My post below does not address your more recent post.

Bah, this quoting within quoting is getting hard to read....  Pulling your quotes out separately:

Zivgar wrote:

The only reason that I could not logically explain was the fact that teasured items would lose some value (Again seems like SoE is phasing out teasured items) and that this may effect the other tiers T2 - T7 since these tiers are pretty much ghost towns. I really don't see how these things that could unbalance the game be that big of a deal. teasured items that are getting phased out and tiers that are pretty much a ghost town. So which one of these is the reason you don't like being able to get fragments from a HC item? Either way some one else did give an idea that you may like better, and than it make HC items when transmuted to be nothing (common), 1 fragment (rare), 2 fragments (ultra rare). Even with my idea the best way to get fragments would still be to down convert powders, so I guess I don't see why it is such a big deal to create a new source of fragments.

Sorry, I'm just not going to agree with you on the desire to make fragments out of nothing.  (And I consider common materials, harvested by automated guild harvesters and pack ponies, into the guild depot, to be nothing).  It's not the skillups.  It's the mass production of top tier fragments out of thin air without leaving the guild hall.  We're just going to have to disagree that a) there is a need, and b) it's a good thing.

Zivgar wrote:

You are missing my point, why is it easy past lvl 10? because the content is so easy to farm, but a crafter does not farm mobs, that is the adventuring part of the game. You say crafting MC items is viable, but give an example from 5+ years ago. Now saying what is practical or not, is a matter of opinion, but I will never call harvesting 500 to 1500 rares practical. Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use. So again if you are a armorer then you can only harvest hard metal rares, I am sorry but to me that would take forever. That would be the opposite of practical. All I want is to give crafters a way to level up transmuting and I don't see MC items achieving that in the current system of the game.

Level 10 (up to level 5 really) is problematic because after the gear revamp, the majority of items that drop in those starter zones are level 10.  Kill a level 1 mob, get a level 10 item.  Killl a level 5 mob, get a level 10 item.  This is a little rough on those who can only transmute up to level 5.  All you're left with are adepts, and mastercrafted wares. Starting out is broken.  After that...  It's trivial to go out an get stuff yourself, or you can pay people that do, your choice.

If *you* choose to limit *your* playstyle, and refuse to *either* obtain ingredients yourself, or buy the required ingredients.. well, then it just might limit what *you* can skill up.  But that's *your* choice, you're painting yourself into a corner of your choosing.

Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use.

Incorrect for low level MC. Any TS class can make them.

Zivgar wrote:

You harvested over 1500 rares just to level up transmuting? How long did that take you? I will admit I have never done it that way, so I will have to take your word on it. Does it take you less than a day? When was the last time you did this?

I'm guessing, 2000?  You only needed to get to 375 (was the practical cap in TSO).  And you did the entire thing on T1/T2 rares, which dropped like candy in the starter zones.  Silver Clusters and Rough Lapis Lazuil. Probably about an even split, half from DLW or OMF, and half scooped off the broker when the asking price dipped into the silver.  But the mechanics were different, you had to *make* an adornment to get a skillup above 100, which took more than one component.  So yah, you probably had to burn through 2000+...  If you find any of the old transmuting guides, you'll find this method specifically documented, and recomended, back then.

And remember, I specifically never said it was fun....  Fortunatly, it's all so much easier now.

But at best, you're arguing to take the remaining effort out of it.  At worst, you're arguing for the ability to mass produce fragments, which people will crank out for plat.

Please understand, not everyone agrees with either of those goals....

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:47 AM   #67
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Zivgar wrote:

I just want when some new player that asks what is the best way to level up transmuting if I am just a crafter, and instead of harvest or buy rares to make MC items, some one could say oh you can make HC items, but buying items or rares is the much faster way. At least then they have 2 choices and can pick the best one that fits their play style. That is the one of points of my idea. Never to create a system that HC item would be the best and only way.

I just want to reiterate this...

You (and the hypothetical they) already have choices in leveling up transmuting.  But your hypothetical rules most of them out, leaving only two.  That's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of your hypothetical situation.

If a new player says "I want to level up transmuting, but I don't want to be bothered to get the ingredients to do it...", well, that's their tough cheese.  They have decided to not do it the way it's intended.  The alternatives, are either expensive, or annoying.  But only because they've ruled out choices themselves.

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Old 05-22-2012, 02:24 AM   #68
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Congratulations:  I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind.  My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.

My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.

My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.

I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle.  It goes something like this:

Q:  How do I best skillup transmuting?A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find.  Takes about 5-15 items per level.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.

Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all.  How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.

Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.

Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either.  How now do I get my skillups?A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice

Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!A: *sigh*....  Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle. 

Wait..  *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

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Old 05-22-2012, 07:32 AM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

Congratulations:  I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind.  My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.

My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.

My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.

I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle.  It goes something like this:

Q:  How do I best skillup transmuting?A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find.  Takes about 5-15 items per level.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.

Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all.  How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.

Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.

Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either.  How now do I get my skillups?A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice

Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!A: *sigh*....  Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle. 

Wait..  *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

This is perfect.

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Old 05-22-2012, 09:45 AM   #70
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Congratulations:  I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind.  My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.

My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.

My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.

I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle.  It goes something like this:

Q:  How do I best skillup transmuting?A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find.  Takes about 5-15 items per level.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.

Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all.  How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.

Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.

Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either.  How now do I get my skillups?A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice

Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!A: *sigh*....  Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle. 

Wait..  *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

This is perfect.

LOL. Yes it is.

I haven't read the entire thread, but has the "Play your way" card been played yet? That seems to be last fallback for people who want things trivialized.

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Old 05-22-2012, 10:28 AM   #71
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[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

I just want when some new player that asks what is the best way to level up transmuting if I am just a crafter, and instead of harvest or buy rares to make MC items, some one could say oh you can make HC items, but buying items or rares is the much faster way. At least then they have 2 choices and can pick the best one that fits their play style. That is the one of points of my idea. Never to create a system that HC item would be the best and only way.

I just want to reiterate this...

You (and the hypothetical they) already have choices in leveling up transmuting.  But your hypothetical rules most of them out, leaving only two.  That's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of your hypothetical situation.

If a new player says "I want to level up transmuting, but I don't want to be bothered to get the ingredients to do it...", well, that's their tough cheese.  They have decided to not do it the way it's intended.  The alternatives, are either expensive, or annoying.  But only because they've ruled out choices themselves.

Even with HC items you still have to gather ingredients, so that statment is not true. Yes it is easier than gathering MC items, but you still have to do it.

I have ruled out nothing as a crafter in the current system you only have 2 choices and it is expensive to buy over 1000 rares that are used for your specfic crafting class, or harvesting the amount you need is no where as fast as what an adventurer can do which is just farm it, while they are getting XP. I just want an option that is more in line with what an adventurer can do. Being able to get skill ups from HC items still will be no where as effective as farming items as an adventurer. With HC items you still have to pay for fuel.

"They have decided to not do it the way it's intended". I don't understand what you are trying to say here? How many things have they changed in this game? Clearly it happens all the time when they put something in that was 'intended' to only change it later on. Using 'since it is not in game so it is not intended' is a very poor agrument. Using the agrument that there is MC items in the game is a good agrument. (One that I can use points to try and agrue against)

I want to reiterate what choices does a pure crafter have? Of course everyone one can buy whatever they need, so that is one option for adventurers and crafters. What are the other choices a crafter has? Well they can make MC items and transmute them.  So what am I leaving out? Farming mobs? That is adventuring not a crafting thing.

So you said you have leveled up transmuting via MC items and I asked you about it because it is something I have never done. You didn't answer me so I will posse those questions again. 

When do you do this last?

How many rares did you need to reach max level transmuting?

How many rares did you harvest in an hour? A day?

How long did it take to gather those items?

If you bought them how much did it cost roughly?

How long did it take to craft all those items to transmute them?

You said it was a viable way to level up transmuting so I assume that you have done it a couple times.

I gave my reason why I don't think it is a practical way, but that is my opinion. I think HC items would be a lot better than MC items, but you still have to gather the raw materials (or buy them, or join a guild with harvesters), and you have to pay for the fuel to make them. At that you would only get fragments. If some one was doing this to get materials to level up adorning then they would still need get powders. Yes we all the different ways to get them, but my point is that this idea would still not be the best one out there. Just another choice.

So one of my agruments is to create a situation to prove that crafters really don't have a lot of options. You said there is more, but I just don't see it other than the ones that I have stated. I see HC items being pretty useless in this current system of the game. Why not have these items transmutable right now in the game? I don't see how it can hurt anything and I have given reasons to why I feel this to be true. For some of the things that myself and others pointed out an alternate idea was given, which I would have no problem with if it was implemented as a compromise. 

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Old 05-22-2012, 11:21 AM   #72
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Zivgar wrote:

I gave my reason why I don't think it is a practical way, but that is my opinion. I think HC items would be a lot better than MC items, but you still have to gather the raw materials (or buy them, or join a guild with harvesters), and you have to pay for the fuel to make them. At that you would only get fragments. If some one was doing this to get materials to level up adorning then they would still need get powders. Yes we all the different ways to get them, but my point is that this idea would still not be the best one out there. Just another choice.

So one of my agruments is to create a situation to prove that crafters really don't have a lot of options. You said there is more, but I just don't see it other than the ones that I have stated. I see HC items being pretty useless in this current system of the game. Why not have these items transmutable right now in the game? I don't see how it can hurt anything and I have given reasons to why I feel this to be true. For some of the things that myself and others pointed out an alternate idea was given, which I would have no problem with if it was implemented as a compromise. 

Sometime you have to spend money to make money, if you are so bent on getting your transmuting skill up then you buy the items to do it, make adornments with them and sell them to recoup what part of the costs that you can. In the end you might make a profit. I could go for handcrafted items being able to be transmuted for a *possible* fragment, maybe a 1 in 5 chance but no more.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:11 PM   #73
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Congratulations:  I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind.  My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.

My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.

My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.

I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle.  It goes something like this:

Q:  How do I best skillup transmuting?A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find.  Takes about 5-15 items per level.

This is an adventurer only choice, this helps prove my point. The best way is adventure only, my idea will never change that.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.

Again this an adventurer solution, as you will get to. The second best way to level transmuting is again via adventuring. There is nothing wrong with that. I am not trying to change that. Its free, you get adventure XP/AA it is a great choice. In fact the one that I have done several times.

Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all.  How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.

The 2nd choice to help level transmuting. So far we have, go adventure (while getting XP/AA) or buy items from adventurers on the broker. So 2 choices all involve being an adventurer or giving money to an adventurer. I can't stress this enough, I have no problem with this. Even with my idea people are still going to do these choices over crafting HC items. That is the power of choice.

Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Let me rephrase your question.

Q: Well I am new to the game and I looked at prices on the broker. Items that I can transmute are like 4gp+, I don't even have 1gp yet? Is there another option?

A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Q:Well I tried that, the things that I craft these hand crafted items don't sell. I got some rares and made Mastercrafted items and they did sell, but only enough to buy one item to transmute.

A:Well HC items are pretty much useless in this game now. Quested and dropped gear is way better.

Q:Well this seems like it will take forever, is there a better way for a crafter?

A:No, only making MC items, which in fact you can just transmute those items yourself that is why they sell, since quest gear and dropped gear is slghtly better than MC gear now. This game is completly geared toward Adventurers, so if you are planning to just be a Crafter, things are going to be tough on you. As you probabely found out when tryng to harvest rares in a zone where mobs can one shot you. It can be done, but you have to be aware of your surrounds. Just find other crafters like yourself and that will help.

Q:Ok thanks! One more question why can't I transmute HC items?

A:I really don't know why. It could be because they would be too common, but as you know you would still have to pay to create those items. I guess SoE just doesn't want to step on the toes of Adventurers even though this game is completely geared towards them. Currently this is the way it is, so you just have to either become an adventurer (I highly recommand this), get enough money to buy these items, or harvest enough rares to get skill ups via crafting.

Q:Ok thanks, I guess I'll become an adventurer. I was planning on doing it at some point anyway. Just seems like an unfair system, when they have some items allready in game that they could use that is just as easy to make as it is to kill lvl 5 mobs. At least killing mobs is free unlike crafting. Oh well thanks for the info.

Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.

How can you make coin via crafting at the early levels? The hot Handcrafted market? You have got to be kidding me. The choices are limited because there is no feasible crafting choices. If you are a new player unless you are an adventurer it is almost impossible to make enough coin to buy these items that the prices are so high. A T1 fragment cost more than a T6 or T7 fragment. Shinies are mostly in adventuring zones. If you can't buy rares since you have no money, what is the choice? So then you can only harvest T1 rares. You would need well over 1500 rares. So right now that is the only choice if you don't want to be an adventurer. But how many T1 commons will you get? Why can't a player use those to make HC items instead. It is so easy for an adventurer, why can't it be just as easy for a crafter? In todays game I do not see the harm.

Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either.  How now do I get my skillups?A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice

Getting over 1500 rares is tedious, I have never done that so I have no idea how long it will take to harvest them all, then craft enough MC items. I would guess over a couple days. People on here have said it would take less than a day farming it via adventuring. So why can't a crafter have that simular time frame, plus it would cost them money. Why all the hate for crafters? You say the last choice, but that last choice is the only crafting choice. I know you can buy items too, so there is only 2 choices for a crafter and crafting MC items is no where near as good of a choice as the adventurer. I just want to make it somewhat even in a game that is totaly geared toward the adventurer.

Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!A: *sigh*....  Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle.

I didn't know that the Q was a 5 year old child. SMILEY Your Q&A session I think helps my agrument. It brings it back to your orginal post. Is making MC items a feasible way to level up transmuting? We know that adventuring way is the best and will stay the best even with my idea. Buying items will always be the easiest and fastest, but at the cost of paying.

In order to be fair, crafters would have to have the same ease as the adventurer when they farm. Other people have stated that farming items you can level transmuting to the max in less than a day. I do not see that with gathering rare harvests. I see that it would take more than a couple days. I could be wrong here I have never done it. If it is 3 days to harvest/craft enough MC items, it would take 3x as long versus an adventurer farming. Now lets look at HC items. You still have to gather enough raw materials, but that is a lot easier than getting rares, plus the time to craft all those items. So lets say it would take about a day. That would be the same as the adventurer. Seems fair to me and that is my goal here.

Wait..  *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

That is an incorrect statement. Crafting items is not free it cost fuel, so the fragments are not free. Actually that is a true statement for an adventurer farming items. So there are 3 choices, buying items is doable by both a crafter and adventurer. So lets look at the last 2 choices.

An Adventurer can farm the need items. It would take roughly less than a day to get enough items to get to be a max level transmuter. Since they are farming it would cost them nothing and would get them powders, infusions and manas. A Crafter can make HC items and transmute them. They have to gather the raw matreials, which is fairly easy to get depending if you are in a guild with harvesters. You then have to craft enough items which would take roughly 1 day, but at the cost of the fuel needed (NOT FREE) and only get fragments.

So to compare takes about the same amount of time, the adventurer gets a chance at manas, infusions, powders, and fragments while the crafter only get fragments. The adventurer doesn't have to pay for anything. The crafter has to pay fuel costs. Seems like the adventurer still gets the best deal and I have no problem with that. I just want the crafter to have a better option than what they currently have without it being the best choice or fastest choice. I think this idea accoplishes that.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:22 PM   #74
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Raknid wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Congratulations:  I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind.  My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.

My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.

My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.

I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle.  It goes something like this:

Q:  How do I best skillup transmuting?A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find.  Takes about 5-15 items per level.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.

Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all.  How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.

Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.

Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.

Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either.  How now do I get my skillups?A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice

Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!A: *sigh*....  Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle. 

Wait..  *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

This is perfect.

LOL. Yes it is.

I haven't read the entire thread, but has the "Play your way" card been played yet? That seems to be last fallback for people who want things trivialized.

You should read the thread before you post.

I highly doubt you will answer my questions, that is what people who don't have a valid point end up doing.

How would making HC items transmutable trivialize leveling up transmuting?

People have allready posted that they can level up transmuting to max in less than a day and that is with the current system.

So you think this will make that feat even easier? What that it would take only 6 hours? Crafting that many items does take some time. I don't see it being any faster than the current system that is in place. The only things I see is that a crafter now will be able to do it as fast as farming items, but at a cost. That seems like a good system to me.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:47 PM   #75
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[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

I gave my reason why I don't think it is a practical way, but that is my opinion. I think HC items would be a lot better than MC items, but you still have to gather the raw materials (or buy them, or join a guild with harvesters), and you have to pay for the fuel to make them. At that you would only get fragments. If some one was doing this to get materials to level up adorning then they would still need get powders. Yes we all the different ways to get them, but my point is that this idea would still not be the best one out there. Just another choice.

So one of my agruments is to create a situation to prove that crafters really don't have a lot of options. You said there is more, but I just don't see it other than the ones that I have stated. I see HC items being pretty useless in this current system of the game. Why not have these items transmutable right now in the game? I don't see how it can hurt anything and I have given reasons to why I feel this to be true. For some of the things that myself and others pointed out an alternate idea was given, which I would have no problem with if it was implemented as a compromise. 

Sometime you have to spend money to make money, if you are so bent on getting your transmuting skill up then you buy the items to do it, make adornments with them and sell them to recoup what part of the costs that you can. In the end you might make a profit. I could go for handcrafted items being able to be transmuted for a *possible* fragment, maybe a 1 in 5 chance but no more.

I agree, but an adventurer farming items does not have to spend any money. With my idea a crafter would just have to pay the fuel cost.

You can level up adorning for free via the daily adorning quest.

With my idea a crafter would still need to get powders to make adornments or upconvert 10 fragments to get 1 powder.

An adventurer will get a chance to get all materials, thus making adornments easier to make and at no cost. (other than the cost fo the fuel to make the adornment)

There is nothing wrong with what you said. If you want to level adorning up, buying the items needed is faster and when you get to the higher tiers you will start to make your money back.

Making HC items transmutable really won't make you that much money. Once the market stablizes you will only get 1 or 2 GP at the higher tiers. T1 fragments would make 3 to 4 GP until the supply gets so high it moves back down to more reasonable levels and then people will stop making them as the profit goes down. The other tiers are ghost towns, not a huge market in those levels. The money will still be in farming item drops since farming is free.

So just having HC items give fragments when transmuted would be a new source of fragments. Fragments are the most common adornment material and in terms of quanity the most needed. I think fragments should be readily available.

That is an opinion and one that you don't agree with it seems. Again nothing wrong with that. Further up in the thread some one suggested a simular idea to the one you said about fragments having a lesser chance to drop. I stated that I wasn't totally for that idea, but it was an idea I would be happy with as a compromise.

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Old 05-22-2012, 12:52 PM   #76
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Zivgar wrote:

An Adventurer can farm the need items. It would take roughly less than a day to get enough items to get to be a max level transmuter. Since they are farming it would cost them nothing and would get them powders, infusions and manas. A Crafter can make HC items and transmute them. They have to gather the raw matreials, which is fairly easy to get depending if you are in a guild with harvesters. You then have to craft enough items which would take roughly 1 day, but at the cost of the fuel needed (NOT FREE) and only get fragments.

So to compare takes about the same amount of time, the adventurer gets a chance at manas, infusions, powders, and fragments while the crafter only get fragments. The adventurer doesn't have to pay for anything. The crafter has to pay fuel costs. Seems like the adventurer still gets the best deal and I have no problem with that. I just want the crafter to have a better option than what they currently have without it being the best choice or fastest choice. I think this idea accoplishes that.

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 Adventurers have expenses too, food, drink, mending, equipment upgrades, totems etc (negligible you say? no more than the costs of fuel)

The adventurer does have to pay, you are just not taking into account the hidden costs, the items that are looted can be sold as vendor trash fro coin. You are not okay with the adventurer getting the best deal, that is the entire premise of this thread, it is risk vs reward.

You are not really thinking this out, handcrafted T9 item cost to make vs the cost of a underfoot fragment, and the effect that a sudden massive influx of virtually no cost fragments would have, it would be detrimental to many more than would gain from it in the long run.

There are plenty of methods that are perfectly viable you are just insisting on this one because like it is effortless and will allow you to buy the handcrafted stuff from the broker.

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Old 05-22-2012, 01:02 PM   #77
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Zivgar wrote:

I agree, but an adventurer farming items does not have to spend any money. With my idea a crafter would just have to pay the fuel cost.

You can level up adorning for free via the daily adorning quest.

With my idea a crafter would still need to get powders to make adornments or upconvert 10 fragments to get 1 powder.

An adventurer will get a chance to get all materials, thus making adornments easier to make and at no cost. (other than the cost fo the fuel to make the adornment)

There is nothing wrong with what you said. If you want to level adorning up, buying the items needed is faster and when you get to the higher tiers you will start to make your money back.

Making HC items transmutable really won't make you that much money. Once the market stablizes you will only get 1 or 2 GP at the higher tiers. T1 fragments would make 3 to 4 GP until the supply gets so high it moves back down to more reasonable levels and then people will stop making them as the profit goes down. The other tiers are ghost towns, not a huge market in those levels. The money will still be in farming item drops since farming is free.

I will point out again because your reply got crossed with a reply I was making concurrently the adventurer does pay an implied cost because they lose coin from not selling the items.

So with the bolded statement it sounds as if you realize this would create a complete upset in the balance of the market and you think that it is acceptable?

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Old 05-22-2012, 02:28 PM   #78
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[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

An Adventurer can farm the need items. It would take roughly less than a day to get enough items to get to be a max level transmuter. Since they are farming it would cost them nothing and would get them powders, infusions and manas. A Crafter can make HC items and transmute them. They have to gather the raw matreials, which is fairly easy to get depending if you are in a guild with harvesters. You then have to craft enough items which would take roughly 1 day, but at the cost of the fuel needed (NOT FREE) and only get fragments.

So to compare takes about the same amount of time, the adventurer gets a chance at manas, infusions, powders, and fragments while the crafter only get fragments. The adventurer doesn't have to pay for anything. The crafter has to pay fuel costs. Seems like the adventurer still gets the best deal and I have no problem with that. I just want the crafter to have a better option than what they currently have without it being the best choice or fastest choice. I think this idea accoplishes that.

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 Adventurers have expenses too, food, drink, mending, equipment upgrades, totems etc (negligible you say? no more than the costs of fuel)

That has nothing to do with transmuting. In fact you do not need to buy food/drink/totems if you don't want to. You can quest for gear/ loot drops and research all CA/spell upgrades. Mending, well just don't die (I know easier said then done) But that is all in the process of adventuring, not some hidden cost.

A crafter also uses food/drink, totems, there is crafting gear, buying recipe books, time to gather raw materials, plus fuel costs. There is expenses too for a crafter. I don't see your point.

The adventurer does have to pay, you are just not taking into account the hidden costs, the items that are looted can be sold as vendor trash fro coin. You are not okay with the adventurer getting the best deal, that is the entire premise of this thread, it is risk vs reward.

In what terms are you talking about? That same loot can be sold to a vendor, but the transmuted materials you get can be sold also and sometimes at a higher price on the broker than the vendor price. So what does an adventurer have to pay? They get an item for free and can either sell the item straight up on the broker, transmute the item and get a chance at a skill up and sell the component on the broker, or sell it to a vendor. I just don't see your point here.

You say I am not okay with adventurer getting the best deal? Then why does my idea still make the adventurer have the best deal? If I wanted the crafter to have the better deal then I would have said to make HC items flagged as a treasured item so you could get a powder and or a fragment. I did not say that. My idea would be to only get fragments. I even said I wouldn't care if the outcome was 50% nothing, 45% 1 fragment, 5% 2 fragments or something along those lines. So that statement is incorrect and I would like it if you did not state things that I am okay with when that statement is false. No where have I ever stated that I think the crafter should be better off than the adventurer in terms of leveling up transmuting or obtaining powders, infusions, or manas. I have stated several times that the adventurer would still have the advanatage. I have proven with in game numbers that down converting powders to fragments is still the best way to get fragments at T9.

I don't understand your risk vs reward? People can bot zones and farm fabled, legendary, and teasured gear. How is that a risk? This is the current system I am talking about here. Plus the reward for the adventurer is greater since they can get manas, infusions, powders, and fragments, while transmuting HC items would only get fragments. Transmuting HC items has no risk with low reward. Farming item drops is a slight risk with maximun reward in terms of adornment materials. That risk vs reward seems in line to me.

You are not really thinking this out, handcrafted T9 item cost to make vs the cost of a underfoot fragment, and the effect that a sudden massive influx of virtually no cost fragments would have, it would be detrimental to many more than would gain from it in the long run.

In fact I have thought this out in great detail and have proven this fact in post above. I will repost it for you so you don't have to search for it.

To make a lvl 80 HC item it takes 5 fuels. 1 T9 fuel costs 1gp 56sp x 5 = 7gp 80sp. 7gp 80sp is not 'virtually no cost' that is another incorrect statement.

The current market price of an underfoot fragment is roughly 24gp on the AB server. The current price of a Void Powder on the AB broker is roughly 40gp. Down converting that same Void Powder would roughly cost 6gp 71sp per fragment (since you get 7 from the down convert) That price is cheaper than making 1 HC item.

So you are saying that my idea would flood the market when there is allready a way that is currently in the game that is cheaper? How does your point make sense? I will admit that most likely the price would go down on underfoot fragments, but at worse 7gp 81sp. I doubt people would be flooding the market to only make 1sp, so I would guess the price would be around 10gp for an underfoot fragment. It would still be cheaper to just buy a void powder then down convert to fragments. I don't see this being detrimental to anyone except for bot'ers, to an item that should be the most common adornment material. This will not effect powders, infusion, or mana markets. Increasing the supply of fragments and lowering the cost is not a bad thing. I think it will help things in the long run considering all gear will have 2 white adorn slots now.

There are plenty of methods that are perfectly viable you are just insisting on this one because like it is effortless and will allow you to buy the handcrafted stuff from the broker.

It is not effortless, it costs money to make and you have to craft the item. Not to mention if you want T9 fragments you have to be a lvl 80+ crafter, that is also not effortless. I agree there are other methods and I have mentioned and talked about them all. I am talking about this one because this is my idea and the topic of this thread, what else should I talk about that hasn't been talked about yet?

You are partially right this will allow myself to buy and sell HC items because right now there is no market for these items, but more importantly this will also allow ALL crafters to do the same thing. This isn't about me this for all crafters. I doubt leveling my transmuting would change that much.

I will tell you what I do since you seem to think you know what that is. Since I have 8 90+ Tradeskillers and 1 60+ if this idea went into the game I would farm drop items to raise my transmuting skill by mentoring down. When I get sick of farming and need a couple more skill ups I will craft a couple HC items and hope I get the skill ups I need. Then I will farm the next zone. I will do this until I get my transmuting up to a skill level where when I adventure and get gear, I can transmute it and get skill ups as I get XP/AA. That is how I do it. Several people would just buy what they need from the broker. Other people would only farm item drops. Some people may just craft it all. That is their choice.

That really isn't anything different than what it is now, other than with my idea HC items can be transmuted. This may even bring life back to the HC market (can I even say back?) I see this as a good thing and one reason why I decided to post this idea.

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Old 05-22-2012, 02:57 PM   #79
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[email protected] wrote:

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I agree, but an adventurer farming items does not have to spend any money. With my idea a crafter would just have to pay the fuel cost.

You can level up adorning for free via the daily adorning quest.

With my idea a crafter would still need to get powders to make adornments or upconvert 10 fragments to get 1 powder.

An adventurer will get a chance to get all materials, thus making adornments easier to make and at no cost. (other than the cost fo the fuel to make the adornment)

There is nothing wrong with what you said. If you want to level adorning up, buying the items needed is faster and when you get to the higher tiers you will start to make your money back.

Making HC items transmutable really won't make you that much money. Once the market stablizes you will only get 1 or 2 GP at the higher tiers. T1 fragments would make 3 to 4 GP until the supply gets so high it moves back down to more reasonable levels and then people will stop making them as the profit goes down. The other tiers are ghost towns, not a huge market in those levels. The money will still be in farming item drops since farming is free.

I will point out again because your reply got crossed with a reply I was making concurrently the adventurer does pay an implied cost because they lose coin from not selling the items.

Again that is an incorrect statement because they can sell the adorning material. The material could be a fragment but more than likely be a powder or greater. How is that a cost to an adventurer? I am sorry your logic here is flawed. Plus they could just sell the item on the broker or vendor depending on what they get more coin for. This is not a loss of coin, but a gain of coin. I guess am at a loss how you see it the other way.

So with the bolded statement it sounds as if you realize this would create a complete upset in the balance of the market and you think that it is acceptable?

Nope I just know how Supply and Demand ecomonics work. Increase the supply and the demand will go down along with the prices. My point was that until the market stablizes making T9 HC items could net you a profit of about roughly 18gp, which is a little bit less money you would make down converting a Void Powder into 7 Underfoot Fragments. The price will contune to go down until the market stablizes to a price where I feel would only net about a 1 or 2 gp profit from making HC items. I have stated several times that I do find it acceptable to see the prices of fragments to drop to about 10gp instead of 24gp of what they are now. I have stated several times that down converting a Void Powder to 7 Underfoot Fragments will still be cheaper than making a HC item. The down conversion is a process that is currently in the game still making farming T9 legendary items the best way to get powders and thus fragments.

It has been stated that this will affect other tiers that are like ghost towns now and depending on how many fuel is needed in that tier HC items maybe a very cheap way to get fragments. I agreed with this statement and even proved it with real numbers even though that it would hurt my agrument. From that I said I would be willing to do a compromise and not get a fragment 100% if a HC item is transmuted. I have kept in mind about market balance and I feel my idea would not harm anything in the current T9 tier and it would balance T1 fragment market. 4gp for a Lapis Lazuli? Now that is out of balance.

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Old 05-22-2012, 03:16 PM   #80
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Zivgar wrote:

4gp for a Lapis Lazuli? Now that is out of balance.

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This in a way is a good situation for "The end justifies the means", though not exactly how it is normally used as there is nothing really immoral about it. The price of a Lapis Lazuli Fragment is meaningless as there is a free way to get beyond those and little to no use of having them otherwise. They are 4gp because of supply, not so much because of demand.

In any event you keep on referencing adventurers having it easier here, you have a choice and the extra effort (risk) that adventurers put in give the extra reward. pressing 4-5-6 2 times and stopping a combine is no comparison and should not grant any reward for you to level transmuting from common items, and if it does it needs to be a 20%, 33% chance at most to do a fragment.

You keep saying that you are willing to compromise, how much?

My statement about not selling the items being a hidden cost is no more wrong than yours, and the logic is not flawed. You take the cost that you could outright vendor all the items for plus the fuel cost to make an adornment, or if you sell the frags/powders etc to a PLAYER because you cannot sell them to a vendor. You must first have a buyer and you said yourself the middle tiers are ghost towns for this, there just isn't enough demand.

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Old 05-22-2012, 05:24 PM   #81
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[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

4gp for a Lapis Lazuli? Now that is out of balance.

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This in a way is a good situation for "The end justifies the means", though not exactly how it is normally used as there is nothing really immoral about it. The price of a Lapis Lazuli Fragment is meaningless as there is a free way to get beyond those and little to no use of having them otherwise. They are 4gp because of supply, not so much because of demand.

It isn't meaningless and there is a demand for them or else it wouldn't cost that much. You are correct that it is more about that there is no supply. My idea would change that. Even if it was only a chance to get a fragment it would still increase the supply and lower the cost. This should not bother you since you said it was meaningless.

In any event you keep on referencing adventurers having it easier here, you have a choice and the extra effort (risk) that adventurers put in give the extra reward. pressing 4-5-6 2 times and stopping a combine is no comparison and should not grant any reward for you to level transmuting from common items, and if it does it needs to be a 20%, 33% chance at most to do a fragment.

From last I knew in order to create a HC item you had to complete the 4th green bar. If you canceled early then it would just return some of the fuel. So what you said is not accurate for HC items.

I don't think I said Adventurers have it easier. I do say that adventurers have the best reward system in place with minimal risk. I see nothing wrong with that. That should not change. Currently a crafter can not get a mana, that should not change. Only a scholar can craft an item that has a chance to get an infusion. That doesn't bother me. 

I know, mentoring down and slaughtering mobs to reach max level transmuting in less than a day is so much extra effort. Getting Power Leveled and picking up all the loot to transmute is so much extra effort. Doing zones that give you XP/AA and transmuting the dropped loot or quest items is such extra effort for the best reward system. 

As a crafter unless you are a part of a guild with harvesters, you have to harvest all your rares and depending on the level range could be a huge risk with minimal rewards. If you do have harvesters in your Guild Hall then there is no Risk, but with minimal rewards. Fragments are the common item in adornment materials. I see nothing wrong with being able to get them from HC items. I see nothing wrong with giving a more feasible option for crafters to level up transmuting. I see nothing wrong with making HC items more marketable. Chose what is best for you, my idea doesn't not change the best way or the fastest way that is allready in the game.

You keep saying that you are willing to compromise, how much?

I have posted my opinion on that matter. It is not my place to decided the percentage in getting fragments from HC items. I never said my idea is the only solution or the best. I thought of an idea that I felt would improve the game and help crafters.

My statement about not selling the items being a hidden cost is no more wrong than yours, and the logic is not flawed. You take the cost that you could outright vendor all the items for plus the fuel cost to make an adornment, or if you sell the frags/powders etc to a PLAYER because you cannot sell them to a vendor. You must first have a buyer and you said yourself the middle tiers are ghost towns for this, there just isn't enough demand.

If you get something for free it is not a cost, saying that it is a cost is the flaw in your agrument. You can sell it to a vendor if you want for 100% profit. If you make a HC item and sell it to the vendor you make nothing. If you would make less money transmuting the item then don't do it and sell it to a vendor. That is the choice. It is easy to sell adornment materials, put it on the broker and wait. There is a demand for people wanting to increase their adorning skill faster. Even if an item would sell for 5gp on the vendor, but you sell the transmuted component for 1gp you still make a profit of 1gp. If you make a HC item that cost 5gp fuel to make and sell the fragment for 1gp, you lose 4gp. Now take the other end sell that fragment for 6gp, getting the drop you would make 6gp, HC item you would make 1gp. See the difference?

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Old 05-22-2012, 09:17 PM   #82
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Zivgar wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

I just want when some new player that asks what is the best way to level up transmuting if I am just a crafter, and instead of harvest or buy rares to make MC items, some one could say oh you can make HC items, but buying items or rares is the much faster way. At least then they have 2 choices and can pick the best one that fits their play style. That is the one of points of my idea. Never to create a system that HC item would be the best and only way.

I just want to reiterate this...

You (and the hypothetical they) already have choices in leveling up transmuting.  But your hypothetical rules most of them out, leaving only two.  That's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of your hypothetical situation.

If a new player says "I want to level up transmuting, but I don't want to be bothered to get the ingredients to do it...", well, that's their tough cheese.  They have decided to not do it the way it's intended.  The alternatives, are either expensive, or annoying.  But only because they've ruled out choices themselves.

Even with HC items you still have to gather ingredients, so that statment is not true. Yes it is easier than gathering MC items, but you still have to do it.

I have ruled out nothing as a crafter in the current system you only have 2 choices and it is expensive to buy over 1000 rares that are used for your specfic crafting class, or harvesting the amount you need is no where as fast as what an adventurer can do which is just farm it, while they are getting XP. I just want an option that is more in line with what an adventurer can do. Being able to get skill ups from HC items still will be no where as effective as farming items as an adventurer. With HC items you still have to pay for fuel.

"They have decided to not do it the way it's intended". I don't understand what you are trying to say here? How many things have they changed in this game? Clearly it happens all the time when they put something in that was 'intended' to only change it later on. Using 'since it is not in game so it is not intended' is a very poor agrument. Using the agrument that there is MC items in the game is a good agrument. (One that I can use points to try and agrue against)

I want to reiterate what choices does a pure crafter have? Of course everyone one can buy whatever they need, so that is one option for adventurers and crafters. What are the other choices a crafter has? Well they can make MC items and transmute them.  So what am I leaving out? Farming mobs? That is adventuring not a crafting thing.

So you said you have leveled up transmuting via MC items and I asked you about it because it is something I have never done. You didn't answer me so I will posse those questions again. 

When do you do this last?

How many rares did you need to reach max level transmuting?

How many rares did you harvest in an hour? A day?

How long did it take to gather those items?

If you bought them how much did it cost roughly?

How long did it take to craft all those items to transmute them?

You said it was a viable way to level up transmuting so I assume that you have done it a couple times.

I gave my reason why I don't think it is a practical way, but that is my opinion. I think HC items would be a lot better than MC items, but you still have to gather the raw materials (or buy them, or join a guild with harvesters), and you have to pay for the fuel to make them. At that you would only get fragments. If some one was doing this to get materials to level up adorning then they would still need get powders. Yes we all the different ways to get them, but my point is that this idea would still not be the best one out there. Just another choice.

So one of my agruments is to create a situation to prove that crafters really don't have a lot of options. You said there is more, but I just don't see it other than the ones that I have stated. I see HC items being pretty useless in this current system of the game. Why not have these items transmutable right now in the game? I don't see how it can hurt anything and I have given reasons to why I feel this to be true. For some of the things that myself and others pointed out an alternate idea was given, which I would have no problem with if it was implemented as a compromise. 

Lets see. Leveled a 90 jeweler from 0 to 425 transmuting in about 1 hour about 3 months ago. Took zero crafting, zero harvesting, did no gathering, did no farming, cost about 60p with most items averaging to 10-17g per transmute with 8-12 items transmuted for every 5 skill ups. Nothing transmuted was below 10 levels from my max.

If you followed the harvest and transmute method your best effort would be to do nothing but teir 1 items. Why? Leist amount of time gathering materials. Even at a 20% skill up rate it beats trying to follow the rare harvests into t6 or above.

HOWEVER: harvesting rares in t5 with a single afternoon's effort allow you to broker the rares for enough to buy treasured items from the broker to skill you from 0 to at least 250.

Even if you can transmute handcrafted items it will NEVER equal spending a few plat on the broker. In the time it takes you to craft 60 skill's worth of items (HC or MC) I'll be done with transmuting. As a pure crafter, coin is your only real reward and measure of success. It isn't like you can really improve your gear or that you need to buy more stuff to make you a better crafter. Once you do a few quests and have enough to buy some rares to begin your broker domination the plat just sits around with no need to accumulate more. I seriously don't understand the total reluctance of "pure" crafters to spend some plat. It is like capitalism is anti-crafting or something when it should be the heart of it.

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Old 05-22-2012, 09:29 PM   #83
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Meirril wrote:

 I seriously don't understand the total reluctance of "pure" crafters to spend some plat. It is like capitalism is anti-crafting or something when it should be the heart of it.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure I've ever run into such a beast.  I'm not sure the argument being made in this thread really even applies.

I have never met a crafter so obstinent, that they are unwilling to do the things they need to do to progress.  Sure, for example, harvesters wish they had safer T10 areas to harvest.  It's a fair comment.  But they go out and harvest and dodge mobs. Could it be easier, sure.  But they're not outright refusing to harvest on principal.

I've never come across the hypothetical crafter so 'pure' that if it requires leaving the guild hall, or touching the broker, they won't do it.  Most are happy, even eager, to run around picking up shinies to sell, to fund their advancement when necessary.  Or to go as far as adventuring level 10, and smak some mobs around in DLW.  Or any of the other myriad of options.

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Old 05-22-2012, 11:16 PM   #84
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[email protected]hicor wrote:

Meirril wrote:

 I seriously don't understand the total reluctance of "pure" crafters to spend some plat. It is like capitalism is anti-crafting or something when it should be the heart of it.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure I've ever run into such a beast.  I'm not sure the argument being made in this thread really even applies.

I have never met a crafter so obstinent, that they are unwilling to do the things they need to do to progress.  Sure, for example, harvesters wish they had safer T10 areas to harvest.  It's a fair comment.  But they go out and harvest and dodge mobs. Could it be easier, sure.  But they're not outright refusing to harvest on principal.

I've never come across the hypothetical crafter so 'pure' that if it requires leaving the guild hall, or touching the broker, they won't do it.  Most are happy, even eager, to run around picking up shinies to sell, to fund their advancement when necessary.  Or to go as far as adventuring level 10, and smak some mobs around in DLW.  Or any of the other myriad of options.

'Pure' crafters want to to get to level 10 and get at least 40 AA for the tradeskill page....

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:46 AM   #85
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I think this is why I like my idea and why I am spending my time to defend it.

If my idea was added into the game it still would not be the fastest way. (Buying all the items you need from the broker seems to be that)

Farming items drops would still be faster and you would get better rewards.

My idea would just be an alternate choice. Maybe something to do other than the 2 choices above. I know you can allready do that with MC gear, but I have yet to hear a good reason why HC items should not be transmutable. Perhaps the outcome should not be a fragment everytime. In terms of MC vs HC, the MC is better because the material used is of higher quality and that is why when it is transmuted it gives a higher quality adorning component (I always felt that every piece should give a chance at an infusion simular to legendary gear, but at a lesser rate. That is a whole other topic though). That is why I only wanted fragments from HC gear when transmuted.

Now if SoE ever decided to put this into the game, they would have to look at the cost of making a HC item vs the vendor selling price of the middle tier teasured gear. I would rather not ruin that market by creating a cheap way to craft items to undercut the teasured gear. Then again I doubt a lot of players are farming teasured gear at these middle tiers to make money and giving crafters a good market for HC items which hasn't exisited since the game was released is not a bad thing. My point here is that if this idea was put into place there are a couple factors that need to be looked at and thought upon before deciding the out come of transmuting HC, if it will be straight up fragments 100% of the time or a rate of 20% per transmuting.

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Old 05-23-2012, 04:15 PM   #86
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Zivgar wrote:

Farming items drops would still be faster and you would get better rewards.

I don't know. My experience is contrary to this statement. I can cite one small example.

Your last reponse to me (regarding my question if there are other alternative ways to raise the Transmutting skill other than muting items) forced me to look for a zone where I could farm items and mute them until my skill was high enough to move to another zone. My Transmute skill is currently at 116, which means I can mute Level 28 items and below.

So I Chrono mentored down to level 30 and went to Crushbone Keep. In one hour I cleared most of the upstairs and ground floor of the zone but got very few mutable drops. In all I got 1 drop I could mute in 1 hour time. I muted it and didn't get a skillup. (Not that I was expecting a skill up.)

Maybe Crushboon Keep is a bad zone for farming or something. Not sure where else I can go with a ton of mutable drops at that level range. (Fallen Gate maybe?)

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Old 05-23-2012, 05:48 PM   #87
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Malchore wrote:

Zivgar wrote:

Farming items drops would still be faster and you would get better rewards.

I don't know. My experience is contrary to this statement. I can cite one small example.

Your last reponse to me (regarding my question if there are other alternative ways to raise the Transmutting skill other than muting items) forced me to look for a zone where I could farm items and mute them until my skill was high enough to move to another zone. My Transmute skill is currently at 116, which means I can mute Level 28 items and below.

So I Chrono mentored down to level 30 and went to Crushbone Keep. In one hour I cleared most of the upstairs and ground floor of the zone but got very few mutable drops. In all I got 1 drop I could mute in 1 hour time. I muted it and didn't get a skillup. (Not that I was expecting a skill up.)

Maybe Crushboon Keep is a bad zone for farming or something. Not sure where else I can go with a ton of mutable drops at that level range. (Fallen Gate maybe?)

At that level range I like Stormhold. Tons of names and if you go into the library on the 2nd level the books in there always drop a wand that is transmutable. Just not a lot of names in Crushbone if I remember correctly.  Fallen Gate isn't bad either. From there I like to do Ruins of Varsoon in TS and Nek Castle just go from name to name. Then other zones in such as Runnyeye and Deathfist Citadel. Cazic Thule is good and I also like Clefts off of Sinking Sands. Then I like to hit up the KoS zones and EoF instances.  I just like to kill names they always drops transmutable loot.

As for my statement, you are probabely right it may not be faster it can be faster and it can be slower. I guess it depends on the drop rates. I will say this as my personal opinion. Killing mobs is a lot more fun then crafting a bunch of items. 

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Old 05-23-2012, 10:32 PM   #88
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Meirril wrote:

Lets see. Leveled a 90 jeweler from 0 to 425 transmuting in about 1 hour about 3 months ago. Took zero crafting, zero harvesting, did no gathering, did no farming, cost about 60p with most items averaging to 10-17g per transmute with 8-12 items transmuted for every 5 skill ups. Nothing transmuted was below 10 levels from my max.

Holy cow! SOE must have dramatically raised the skill-up rate of Transmuting when you mute an even-level item. I bought 10 adept books from the broker that were level 28 got a skill-up on every single one of those books! In my day, adapt books sold for WAY more gold than they do now, plus a chance for a skill-up on even-level items was - at best - 1 in 5. And that's the best you could do for skillups. Now it's like 9 in 10 it seems.

I had a LOT of items in my bank that were level range 35 - 50 that I held onto while adventuring. But I had to get my skill up high enough to mute them. Well, just an hour ago I bought maybe 25 adept books from the broker and muted them. Got my skill up high enough I could mute ALL the items I had saved all those years ago.

My skill is now 255 out of 355. I'm very close to my adventure level in muting ability so I'll just mute whatever items I come across now.

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Old 05-24-2012, 07:53 PM   #89
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Malchore wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Lets see. Leveled a 90 jeweler from 0 to 425 transmuting in about 1 hour about 3 months ago. Took zero crafting, zero harvesting, did no gathering, did no farming, cost about 60p with most items averaging to 10-17g per transmute with 8-12 items transmuted for every 5 skill ups. Nothing transmuted was below 10 levels from my max.

Holy cow! SOE must have dramatically raised the skill-up rate of Transmuting when you mute an even-level item. I bought 10 adept books from the broker that were level 28 got a skill-up on every single one of those books! In my day, adapt books sold for WAY more gold than they do now, plus a chance for a skill-up on even-level items was - at best - 1 in 5. And that's the best you could do for skillups. Now it's like 9 in 10 it seems.

I had a LOT of items in my bank that were level range 35 - 50 that I held onto while adventuring. But I had to get my skill up high enough to mute them. Well, just an hour ago I bought maybe 25 adept books from the broker and muted them. Got my skill up high enough I could mute ALL the items I had saved all those years ago.

My skill is now 255 out of 355. I'm very close to my adventure level in muting ability so I'll just mute whatever items I come across now.

Umm...the rate hasn't changed from day 1. Even when Transmuting was split off from Adorning the rate was maintained even if the method was changed.

Though back in the day when I did my first transmuter everybody did grey combines (the 20% skill up ones) because you could afford to do 20 teir 3 combines for every t6 or higher combine. That was also back when adornment recipes took about 50% more material than they do now, and you had to make adornments to skill from 100-350.

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Old 05-29-2012, 09:08 PM   #90
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IF you made handcrafted transmutable...the bot running community would script the whole process of crafting , transmuting and re-combining  and the broker would be flooded with manas.

All those hours don't count as a deterent when you don't need to actually be at the PC to do it.

Exactly.  Why should everything always be made easier in this game?

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