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Old 10-29-2012, 12:52 AM   #31
Dahmer

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Imo these are our current issues:

Divine Protection greatly needs to have it's duration increased. 1.5 damage reduction means nothing in current raid mechanics. More so when you compare it to our counterparts getting stoneskins in it's place.

Divinity's Aid, there is no reason why the best healer ability that we are getting should be in the dps line. It makes no sense. Swap Sancitfy with Divinity's Aid.

What do you guys think?

In terms of the cure~ as i said earliar..Of course it they should increase the amount of detriments it cures, there really is no reason not to.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:19 AM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

Care to provide some examples? What encounters/mobs?Our MT Defiler + Templar seem to have no difficulty handling the cures, so providing some actual examples would be useful. If what you speak of was actually a problem, it would be a problem for our MTG. But it has given my guild no problems thus far.So, you made the insinuation that double AEs (of the same effect type) are a frequent occurance. It should be really easy to provide a lot of examples if it happens so often?

Defiler + templar have two group cures between them, so they will be able to cure two of the same AE types hitting at the same time.

What he said was one healer having a two-tier cure and the first mob that comes to mind is HM Vallon with the two arcanes can hit back to back; maybe vyskudra as well with Ele's?

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Old 10-29-2012, 03:21 AM   #33
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Hene wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Care to provide some examples? What encounters/mobs?Our MT Defiler + Templar seem to have no difficulty handling the cures, so providing some actual examples would be useful. If what you speak of was actually a problem, it would be a problem for our MTG. But it has given my guild no problems thus far.So, you made the insinuation that double AEs (of the same effect type) are a frequent occurance. It should be really easy to provide a lot of examples if it happens so often?

Defiler + templar have two group cures between them, so they will be able to cure two of the same AE types hitting at the same time.

What he said was one healer having a two-tier cure and the first mob that comes to mind is HM Vallon with the two arcanes can hit back to back; maybe vyskudra as well with Ele's?

That's the point - A defiler and templar do indeed have two group cures between them. I don't really count VoA because of it's maxed out reuse rate being 1:00 is above most AE cycles, and it requires specific conditions. In addition, if the defiler+templar are smart healers, they will have tools at their disposal, providing significantly enhanced curing capacity. So the problem you allude to is negated by game design (Templars are not designed to be solo healer in raid groups).The last few times I have killed Vallon, there have been no issues with arcane stacking in the MTG. Maybe your guild is having absolutely terrible luck? Maybe everyone in our guild killed enough turles on the starter island beach, to get uber high luck ratings? Or maybe the issue your guilds MTG is having with cures, has nothing to do with encounter design? All I know is it is such a small problem I have never seen it affect my group.If anything, Templars should be thanking the heavens they now have the fastest recasting group cure in EQ2. But no, as expected there is a small handfull of people that are not satisfied. Fastest curse cure reuse, and fastest standard group cure reuse? Not good enough! In addition to such, what makes a Templar "need" double-cure capacity any more/less than a shaman? They do not. The healer that actually deserves the addition of double-cure capacity, would be shamans. Why? Shaman's have twice the reuse rate of their group cure vs Templars. This would further enhance the Templar+Shaman synergy. Logic. So, to people saying Vallon causes AE stack problems, is a loooooong stretch at best. I can condifently make that statement, because if stacking AEs on that encounter was an actual problem, I should have seen it already, right? I have been in there healing the MTG with a Templar. Guess how many problems I have seen?  None. Different class types bring different strengths to a raid, and if you go into HM Vallon and try to use a defiler/mystic/templar to solo heal a group, you deserve the challenge it presents.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:06 PM   #34
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That was just the one example I came up with off the top of my head, it's not that that fight is particularly bad for stacking AEs. And don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that a templar and shaman duo would work fine, I was just answering your question about fights with same resist types for multiple AEs. On Vyskudra there are 2 ele's iirc, Mrogr has 2 nox's, klaatuus has 2 nox's, AU&Z have 2 ele's, aaranae acrimae has 2 arcanes, all sorts of trash in drunder and PoW have back-to-back ele or trauma, it's not an uncommon occurence to have multiple AEs of the same type.

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Old 10-29-2012, 12:58 PM   #35
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Hene wrote:

That was just the one example I came up with off the top of my head, it's not that that fight is particularly bad for stacking AEs. And don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that a templar and shaman duo would work fine, I was just answering your question about fights with same resist types for multiple AEs. On Vyskudra there are 2 ele's iirc, Mrogr has 2 nox's, klaatuus has 2 nox's, AU&Z have 2 ele's, aaranae acrimae has 2 arcanes, all sorts of trash in drunder and PoW have back-to-back ele or trauma, it's not an uncommon occurence to have multiple AEs of the same type.

A mob having two AEs of the same detrimental effect, (eg: Mrogr Bloodtaint's noxious AEs), does not mean both of them can/will land at the exact same time. Many mobs in EQ2 have AEs that go in cycles, with consistent delays/time between AEs. And Acrimae has 2 curable arcanes? That is news to me, I thought she only has one curable AE period (webforce is incurable). I am quite certain Klaatuus spaces his AEs too, I will verify that on the next clear. And for UAZ, I guess we use a strategy that negates the problem your guild endures?To assist in making the point... An encounter could have 7 elemental AEs, on a 1 minute cycle, all spaced 7 seconds apart. The incoming Templar group cure will have no problems dealing with the rate of cures. This does NOT mean the Templar group cure needs remove 800+ levels of detrimental effects per cast.If you're mass pulling PoW/Drunder trash, and allowing AE stacks to occur? If your raid struggles with such, it is a problem brought upon yourselves. If you can mass pull and get away for it, good on you! If you can not, play it safe. The only notable exception is the winged demon/gargoyle mobs in PoW, but there are very simple ways to prevent them being an issue.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:18 PM   #36
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[email protected] wrote:

Hene wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Care to provide some examples? What encounters/mobs?Our MT Defiler + Templar seem to have no difficulty handling the cures, so providing some actual examples would be useful. If what you speak of was actually a problem, it would be a problem for our MTG. But it has given my guild no problems thus far.So, you made the insinuation that double AEs (of the same effect type) are a frequent occurance. It should be really easy to provide a lot of examples if it happens so often?

Defiler + templar have two group cures between them, so they will be able to cure two of the same AE types hitting at the same time.

What he said was one healer having a two-tier cure and the first mob that comes to mind is HM Vallon with the two arcanes can hit back to back; maybe vyskudra as well with Ele's?

That's the point - A defiler and templar do indeed have two group cures between them. I don't really count VoA because of it's maxed out reuse rate being 1:00 is above most AE cycles, and it requires specific conditions. In addition, if the defiler+templar are smart healers, they will have tools at their disposal, providing significantly enhanced curing capacity. So the problem you allude to is negated by game design (Templars are not designed to be solo healer in raid groups).The last few times I have killed Vallon, there have been no issues with arcane stacking in the MTG. Maybe your guild is having absolutely terrible luck? Maybe everyone in our guild killed enough turles on the starter island beach, to get uber high luck ratings? Or maybe the issue your guilds MTG is having with cures, has nothing to do with encounter design? All I know is it is such a small problem I have never seen it affect my group.If anything, Templars should be thanking the heavens they now have the fastest recasting group cure in EQ2. But no, as expected there is a small handfull of people that are not satisfied. Fastest curse cure reuse, and fastest standard group cure reuse? Not good enough!In addition to such, what makes a Templar "need" double-cure capacity any more/less than a shaman? They do not. The healer that actually deserves the addition of double-cure capacity, would be shamans. Why? Shaman's have twice the reuse rate of their group cure vs Templars. This would further enhance the Templar+Shaman synergy. Logic. So, to people saying Vallon causes AE stack problems, is a loooooong stretch at best. I can condifently make that statement, because if stacking AEs on that encounter was an actual problem, I should have seen it already, right? I have been in there healing the MTG with a Templar. Guess how many problems I have seen?  None. Different class types bring different strengths to a raid, and if you go into HM Vallon and try to use a defiler/mystic/templar to solo heal a group, you deserve the challenge it presents.

Avi...you have stated that you are playing your templar now for raids instead of your inquis however every response in this thread you have posted has been devoid of any suggestions or constructive criticism of the new prestige.  Most of the community not just templars pretty much agree that all the class prestige abilitys need a serious amount of tweaking for if they go to live as is most will not even be taken (which a number of threads have already suggested).  While on paper some of the new templar prestige have alot of promise....durations of bout 1.5 secs is extremely laughable (divinity's protection), bland stat bump of str/wis/agl/int when most of us are at soft cap or higher (holy armor), non critting ward on target which finally got addressed on friday (Barrier of Davinity), etc.  It feels like each of your responses has a subtle undercurrent of low key anger at templars and for those familiar with your previous responses in templar threads over the last year or so but not aware your playing your temp right now they would almost think your still playing your inquis.

Not trying to intentionally derail the thread or get into a shouting match Avi but the issue of double dets landing is an issue that should be discussed albeit there are only a certain number of names that can and have double det slammed groups there is also a host of trash mobs that double dets landing do occur so the issue is real and not imagined or as rare as its been described and as such need to be discussed instead of automatically dismissing it as nonsense. 

Sorry for the derail again guys but me and Avi have been like oil and water in the past on templar v. inquis issues and now that hes playing his temp I hope we could concentrait on the prestige issues in particular in this thread.

On to Dahm's suggestions:

Agree with your assessment on Divinity's Protection...its duration is a complete joke at 1.5 secs especially in raid.....as for Divinity's Aid while I agree it has alot of potential as one of the better if not best healer ability in the new prestige and does somewhat feel like it should be swapped for Sanctify I highly doubt we will get that done.  Still kinda concerned with the proc/sub proc trigger mechanics being for us to allow our single target reactive triggers expire naturally but could work with it....wouldnt mind seeing this work with both our group and single target reactives...but that maybe bit much to ask.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:36 PM   #37
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Hene wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Care to provide some examples? What encounters/mobs?Our MT Defiler + Templar seem to have no difficulty handling the cures, so providing some actual examples would be useful. If what you speak of was actually a problem, it would be a problem for our MTG. But it has given my guild no problems thus far.So, you made the insinuation that double AEs (of the same effect type) are a frequent occurance. It should be really easy to provide a lot of examples if it happens so often?

Defiler + templar have two group cures between them, so they will be able to cure two of the same AE types hitting at the same time.

What he said was one healer having a two-tier cure and the first mob that comes to mind is HM Vallon with the two arcanes can hit back to back; maybe vyskudra as well with Ele's?

That's the point - A defiler and templar do indeed have two group cures between them. I don't really count VoA because of it's maxed out reuse rate being 1:00 is above most AE cycles, and it requires specific conditions. In addition, if the defiler+templar are smart healers, they will have tools at their disposal, providing significantly enhanced curing capacity. So the problem you allude to is negated by game design (Templars are not designed to be solo healer in raid groups).The last few times I have killed Vallon, there have been no issues with arcane stacking in the MTG. Maybe your guild is having absolutely terrible luck? Maybe everyone in our guild killed enough turles on the starter island beach, to get uber high luck ratings? Or maybe the issue your guilds MTG is having with cures, has nothing to do with encounter design? All I know is it is such a small problem I have never seen it affect my group.If anything, Templars should be thanking the heavens they now have the fastest recasting group cure in EQ2. But no, as expected there is a small handfull of people that are not satisfied. Fastest curse cure reuse, and fastest standard group cure reuse? Not good enough!In addition to such, what makes a Templar "need" double-cure capacity any more/less than a shaman? They do not. The healer that actually deserves the addition of double-cure capacity, would be shamans. Why? Shaman's have twice the reuse rate of their group cure vs Templars. This would further enhance the Templar+Shaman synergy. Logic. So, to people saying Vallon causes AE stack problems, is a loooooong stretch at best. I can condifently make that statement, because if stacking AEs on that encounter was an actual problem, I should have seen it already, right? I have been in there healing the MTG with a Templar. Guess how many problems I have seen?  None. Different class types bring different strengths to a raid, and if you go into HM Vallon and try to use a defiler/mystic/templar to solo heal a group, you deserve the challenge it presents.

Avi...you have stated that you are playing your templar now for raids instead of your inquis however every response in this thread you have posted has been devoid of any suggestions or constructive criticism of the new prestige.  Most of the community not just templars pretty much agree that all the class prestige abilitys need a serious amount of tweaking for if they go to live as is most will not even be taken (which a number of threads have already suggested).  While on paper some of the new templar prestige have alot of promise....durations of bout 1.5 secs is extremely laughable (divinity's protection), bland stat bump of str/wis/agl/int when most of us are at soft cap or higher (holy armor), non critting ward on target which finally got addressed on friday (Barrier of Davinity), etc.  It feels like each of your responses has a subtle undercurrent of low key anger at templars and for those familiar with your previous responses in templar threads over the last year or so but not aware your playing your temp right now they would almost think your still playing your inquis.

Not trying to intentionally derail the thread or get into a shouting match Avi but the issue of double dets landing is an issue that should be discussed albeit there are only a certain number of names that can and have double det slammed groups there is also a host of trash mobs that double dets landing do occur so the issue is real and not imagined or as rare as its been described and as such need to be discussed instead of automatically dismissing it as nonsense. 

Sorry for the derail again guys but me and Avi have been like oil and water in the past on templar v. inquis issues and now that hes playing his temp I hope we could concentrait on the prestige issues in particular in this thread.

On to Dahm's suggestions:

Agree with your assessment on Divinity's Protection...its duration is a complete joke at 1.5 secs especially in raid.....as for Divinity's Aid while I agree it has alot of potential as one of the better if not best healer ability in the new prestige and does somewhat feel like it should be swapped for Sanctify I highly doubt we will get that done.  Still kinda concerned with the proc/sub proc trigger mechanics being for us to allow our single target reactive triggers expire naturally but could work with it....wouldnt mind seeing this work with both our group and single target reactives...but that maybe bit much to ask.

Discussing the "prestige issues" raised by other players in this thread? Sure. People like Dahmer (she is not the only one) are claiming the fastest reuse group cure in the game isn't good enough, and they want it to be a double cure. This is an "issue" which I did not raise, but I am discussing.Relevant to this discussion, I called for examples to be provided as justification for claims that the Templar cure needs to be made even better. So far, people have only provided raid_names where the AEs are actually spaced out (don't stack, eg Mrogr), or names where I have seemingly been so miraculously lucky I have had no issue to date (Vallon), or simply a side-effect of pulling multiple sets of trash mobs. This hardly gives credibility toward making the templars groupcure do 2X.I call it for what it is. If people do not want to discuss the fundamental merits of making the templar groupcure remove 2X effects, it should not be suggested. Just remember, I did not bring it up.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #38
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It's not always due to mass pulling (in fact, it's almost never due to mass pulling in PoW), aviaks come in sets of three as do the demon trash, both of which often have two of mob types that AE out of the 3 that come as one set. And while most of the named AEs are nicely spaced, they will occasionally still get closer and closer due to the named delaying his AE to cast a DT or w/e else would delay his AE. Also mobs like Sev and Vysk have 2 AEs from different mobs that will line up sometimes, it's just a fact of lifebut how is any of this relevant if Templars are just going to MT heal with a shaman anyway?

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:02 PM   #39
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If you check earliar postings, i did list mobs that did have a chance to double aoe. I only included the ones that had control effect aoes, but there other other mobs in current game play that whether it be from people getting charmed, or from adds~ It's a fairly common occurance. The reality of the situation also is that currently none of these new raid encounters have their proper buff packages. If history plays any factor in this, when any healer has gotten buffed in the cure department that xpac has always been more cure intensive. Also avie plays a defiler on raid, the templar is just an alt.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:19 PM   #40
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Dahmer wrote:

If you check earliar postings, i did list mobs that did have a chance to double aoe. I only included the ones that had control effect aoes, but there other other mobs in current game play that whether it be from people getting charmed, or from adds~ It's a fairly common occurance. The reality of the situation also is that currently none of these new raid encounters have their proper buff packages. If history plays any factor in this, when any healer has gotten buffed in the cure department that xpac has always been more cure intensive. Also avie plays a defiler on raid, the templar is just an alt.

You listed mobs? On the first page you mentioned Vallon and Gloktus. Not exactly a comprehensive list... And I am point blank disputing the merit of Vallon. Had zero issues thus far in the absence of a double-cure class being in the MTG.It is not a common occurance, as you claim. If it was, I would be having problems with, day in and day out. "Quite infrequent" would be a more accurate description.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:20 PM   #41
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Hene wrote:

but how is any of this relevant if Templars are just going to MT heal with a shaman anyway?

Exactly... It is not a problem to begin with.

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:15 PM   #42
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Couple of things:

  • Sanctify triggers the same way normal reactives do. Some procs will trigger it, but multi-attacks should not. It should not be losing effectiveness as it loses increments.
  • The left side focuses on beneficial spells while the right side puts more emphasis on hostile spells. While both lines have some DPS options, neither line is intended to be a "DPS line."  Divinity's Aid is on the right side because those players are less likely to overwrite their reactives, but Sanctify is intended to be just as strong for healing. Sanctify should work better for MT group situations (easier to keep active, spikes more deadly), while Divinity's Aid should be stronger in OT group or heroic situations (multi-mob encounters eating reactives faster, which trigges it more). We'll make some changes to emphasize that dichotomy.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:21 PM   #43
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Just curious Xelgad, what is the mechanic reason (or heck how bout the in game rationale) as to why your first  statement, in its entirety, is true? A reactive that doesn't react is...what again?

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Old 10-31-2012, 12:10 AM   #44
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Templar Divinity's Aid no longer lies and says it is incremental when it really isn't. Holy Army is now potency instead of attributes. It now properly applies to the target's group and not just the target.

Holy Army is still only attributes. The value of it also is not increasing. Stays the same whether your at 1 or 10 incriments.

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Old 10-31-2012, 12:21 AM   #45
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I think we're pushing those changes to beta in a few minutes

Also, Holy Army's buff increases but it doesn't automatically multiply in the text/mouseover.

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Old 10-31-2012, 02:56 AM   #46
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Xelgad wrote:

I think we're pushing those changes to beta in a few minutes

Also, Holy Army's buff increases but it doesn't automatically multiply in the text/mouseover.

So 21 pot at max incriments grp wide...Granted i would prefer CB since we are limited to melee based groups. ~ But i really can't complain with any utility that we get~ Thank you SMILEY

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:08 AM   #47
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Personaly im so ....... tired of timing group cures with a defiler like it have been in drunder/pow, 1 small misstake and you know the fight is more or less over. Everything before DoV 1 was a different story with curing but with the new CoE prestiges things will absolutely be more in line to deal with HM content. These changes should be given us a long time ago!

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Old 10-31-2012, 01:38 PM   #48
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Helmarf wrote:

Personaly im so ....... tired of timing group cures with a defiler like it have been in drunder/pow, 1 small misstake and you know the fight is more or less over. Everything before DoV 1 was a different story with curing but with the new CoE prestiges things will absolutely be more in line to deal with HM content. These changes should be given us a long time ago!

And to avi, work with us, not against us 

A Templar+Defiler combo having to work with each other is not a phenomenon that began in DoVpt1. Everything before DoV was NOT a different story.In TSO, 2 expansions before DoV, unless the raid over-geared the encounters, attemtps to kill Ykesha, Anashti, Tyrannus, Tythus, (and more) would end badly if cures were not coordinated.In SF, 1 expansion before DoV, unless the raid over-geared the encounters, attempts to kill Xilaxis/Arkatanthis, Mosaasus, XYZ, Saalak, Construct, Theerax, Yael (and more) would end badly if cures were not coordinated. And SF was the mother of all cure-curse expansions, if you remember what happened if 2+ people tried to cure the same curse?Rolling into MMB, MPS and SoH without organising cures was not a recipe for a smooth night, either. It taken a while for the average guild to tame Byzola/Miragul/Gozak/Munzok.What DoVpt1 did do, was provide a lot of easymode raid content. You do not need to be Einstein to put 1 and 1 together, and work out why DoVpt1 did not make Templars feel loved... A large portion of the raid content put out very little damage (thus EasyMode...), but could/would still put put a lot of detrimentals. Class popularity reacted accordingly. Fortunately, SOE responded by making future content releases (Drunder/PoW/SS) more practical for Templars. There is now a number of encounters where it is a fantastic benefit to have a Templar. But it might take some time for people to realise, Templars have always been incredibly powerful healers.I am in the MTG, which is a defiler+templar combo. I make sure I work with my co-healer. The small "price" of having to coordinate cures (which comes very natural to us both), is easily offset by the benefits of the other abilities a Templar offers.All of you should be proud to be Templars, the class is very capable. And if the shaman in your group thinks they are too leet to "waste their time" curing with you... Replace them.

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Old 10-31-2012, 05:15 PM   #49
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[email protected] wrote:

Helmarf wrote:

Personaly im so ....... tired of timing group cures with a defiler like it have been in drunder/pow, 1 small misstake and you know the fight is more or less over. Everything before DoV 1 was a different story with curing but with the new CoE prestiges things will absolutely be more in line to deal with HM content. These changes should be given us a long time ago!

And to avi, work with us, not against us 

A Templar+Defiler combo having to work with each other is not a phenomenon that began in DoVpt1. Everything before DoV was NOT a different story.In TSO, 2 expansions before DoV, unless the raid over-geared the encounters, attemtps to kill Ykesha, Anashti, Tyrannus, Tythus, (and more) would end badly if cures were not coordinated.In SF, 1 expansion before DoV, unless the raid over-geared the encounters, attempts to kill Xilaxis/Arkatanthis, Mosaasus, XYZ, Saalak, Construct, Theerax, Yael (and more) would end badly if cures were not coordinated. And SF was the mother of all cure-curse expansions, if you remember what happened if 2+ people tried to cure the same curse?Rolling into MMB, MPS and SoH without organising cures was not a recipe for a smooth night, either. It taken a while for the average guild to tame Byzola/Miragul/Gozak/Munzok.What DoVpt1 did do, was provide a lot of easymode raid content. You do not need to be Einstein to put 1 and 1 together, and work out why DoVpt1 did not make Templars feel loved... A large portion of the raid content put out very little damage (thus EasyMode...), but could/would still put put a lot of detrimentals. Class popularity reacted accordingly. Fortunately, SOE responded by making future content releases (Drunder/PoW/SS) more practical for Templars. There is now a number of encounters where it is a fantastic benefit to have a Templar. But it might take some time for people to realise, Templars have always been incredibly powerful healers.I am in the MTG, which is a defiler+templar combo. I make sure I work with my co-healer. The small "price" of having to coordinate cures (which comes very natural to us both), is easily offset by the benefits of the other abilities a Templar offers.All of you should be proud to be Templars, the class is very capable. And if the shaman in your group thinks they are too leet to "waste their time" curing with you... Replace them.

Everything pre Dov 1 was a different story

TsO - Group cures did only cure 2 different detrimental so raid had to be set up after what healer class could cure what, the rest had to pot it. You did not wipe the raid if there was a missed cure and you did not get a terrible punishment effect if you missed one or the second tick do 10 times more and probably kill someone . Nothing special about group cures in TsO that was a problem for any class, . Curse cure chains anyone 

Mmb/Mps/Soh - Cant remember anything from those zones that required the same attention/focus on curing as it does now. The scripts from those fights where more up to the raid as whole to make the kill, example run away with the curse on Byzola and wait till it expired run back in or use your clicky thingy on Miragul. Probably the best raid zone all times!

SF - As you said it, mother of all curse cures but still not aoe heavy where you needed to be extremly up to pair with your buddy defiler to make the group cures.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the templar class but the way things where made in Dov 1 regarding cures made it slightly harder for us. Making a good defiler/templar combo working together isnt made over the night even if the templar have the great abillitys for it as im very sure many guilds have lost lots of players over the last 1,5 year having to start all over with a new less unexperienced defiler to make it happend 

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Old 10-31-2012, 09:10 PM   #50
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Helmarf wrote:

Everything pre Dov 1 was a different story

It is human nature to remember the "good things" morso than the "bad things". Your fond memories of TSO and SF being cure-easy expansions are likely a deception of time, more than an actual reality. If you think failing to cure a DoT in time in SF+TSO never had a consequence, beyond someone having to click a group rez, you're mistaken. Many a time, the whole raid would wipe, because the "wrong person" died to a dot tick.There was a big discussion about cures a couple of months into DoVpt1. Claims that curing was so much harder in DoVpt1 than it was in prior expansions, were squashed. There was only one exception that really stood out, being Tormax. However, a Defiler+Templar could still do the HM version of it back when the content was actually relevant+challenging. Just ask Dahmer about that, she's the Templar in mention.If you want a reminder about how a number of TSO/SF encounters worked, and what could happen if you recklessly allowed people to die from a DoT ticking, I will be happy to fill you in. We can start with Wing3 of Underfoot Depths, and back up from there. I should still have a lot of the timers for that expac, so it would make for a great discussion.A templar + defiler learning to work together may not happen in a matter of minutes, but it is hardly mission impossible either. If I can find it easy to work with another healer, after so many years of being a multi-curing Inquisitor.... Anyone can.

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Old 10-31-2012, 10:43 PM   #51
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I have no fuzzy memories of Tormax.

SF didn't start getting cure intensive untill wing 3, Or HM's, Pretty much all ez mod content was uncurable dets.

Anything that has been highly cure intensive has really only been seen in high end raiding.

That's the issue between DoV and earliar Xpacs...Everyhing was pretty cure intensive. Even going way back to the first mob in Kraytocs which had a double trauma...One being Crushing Boot which was a knock back~ and this was entry level raid content. Granted i know your going to say..Oh templars! Use your aoe blocker for that knock back, or use your baubble cures for additional curing~ But the reality of the situation is, is not every templar has access to baubble cures, and not every temp/shammy are going to have the experience and know-how to coordinatee cures. For a casual guild that only raids a few nights a week, an inq is going to be easy solution to any curing discrepancy that you might have.

For the past year all i have watched you do is pretty much ask casual players to play better~ But it's not just on the templar, it's on the shammy also. Hence why most either betrayed or quit the game.

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:18 PM   #52
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Dahmer wrote:

I have no fuzzy memories of Tormax.

SF didn't start getting cure intensive untill wing 3, Pretty much all ez mod content was uncurable dets.

Anything that has been highly cure intensive has really only been seen in high end raiding.

That's the issue between DoV and earliar Xpacs...Everyhing was pretty cure intensive. Even going way back to the first mob in Kraytocs which had a double trauma...One being Crushing Boot which was a knock back~ and this was entry level raid content. Granted i know your going to say..Oh templars! Use your aoe blocker for that knock back, or use your baubble cures for additional curing~ But the reality of the situation is, is not every templar has access to baubble cures, and not every temp/shammy are going to have the experience and know-how to coordinatee cures. For a casual guild that only raids a few nights a week, an inq is going to be easy solution to any curing discrepancy that you might have.

For the past year all i have watched you do is pretty much ask casual players to play better~ But it's not just on the templar, it's on the shammy also. Hence why most either betrayed or quit the game.

Are you saying the curing was easy, on Arkatanthis, Waansu, Constuct and Vaclaz? None of which are Wing3 mobs.The first encounter in Kraytocs has 2 curable AEs... Not 3, not 4, not 5... Just two. It is no big ask for a pair of healers to to arrange between themselves, who cures crushing boot, and who cures hammerarc. SOE put casting bars in, and combining zone gemoetry + AE avoids make it very doable. If it is still too hard, they had the option to engage the mob that did not have a knockback. You know it is coming, and I will say it. If two healers have problems curing 1 AE each, there is a problem, and it is not game design.If you believe an encounter that has 2 curable AEs is too much for raid content, I do not know what to tell you...As I said a few posts above, the issue in DoVpt1 was the prevalence of EasyMode content, which did not do much damage, just fired off curable AEs. SOE has steered away from such design, in most of the content released since then. Now there is less "easymode" content of relevance, it is no suprise that the focus is shifting, and the powerful abilities a Templar can offer are considered more desirable.

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Old 10-31-2012, 11:46 PM   #53
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Those mobs you listed are HM mobs Avie. If check my post i actually edited it prior to you posting

How many casual guilds do you think were actually killing those?

That was my point. You go from ez mob content were everything is either uncurable or there is one aoe~ To the first raid encounter in the xpac having two curable aoes one being a knockback.

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Old 11-01-2012, 12:37 AM   #54
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Disappointed with how Divinity's Aid is working...

6 seconds of increased healing received. This does not apply to wards?!?!? When I use Repent on the target, the amount it wards is not increased at all. This means that the increased healing only applies to direct heals on the target?

If I wait until my last reactive goes off the target in order for DA to proc, that means that most likely, the tank is going to get hit at least 1-2 times with no reactives on him before I can recast the single target reactive back on him. So I am automatically giving probably 10-20k of heals if I had just made sure the reactives never expired in the first place, just to get +30% on any direct heals for 6 seconds?

I have not gotten enough prestige points to get the ward added onto the DA, but if the ward is say 10-20k, then we are just breaking even with the lost heals from not having the reactives up for a hit or two. This seems pretty lame for a prestige ability, no?

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:21 AM   #55
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[email protected] wrote:

Helmarf wrote:

Everything pre Dov 1 was a different story

It is human nature to remember the "good things" morso than the "bad things". Your fond memories of TSO and SF being cure-easy expansions are likely a deception of time, more than an actual reality. If you think failing to cure a DoT in time in SF+TSO never had a consequence, beyond someone having to click a group rez, you're mistaken. Many a time, the whole raid would wipe, because the "wrong person" died to a dot tick.There was a big discussion about cures a couple of months into DoVpt1. Claims that curing was so much harder in DoVpt1 than it was in prior expansions, were squashed. There was only one exception that really stood out, being Tormax. However, a Defiler+Templar could still do the HM version of it back when the content was actually relevant+challenging. Just ask Dahmer about that, she's the Templar in mention.If you want a reminder about how a number of TSO/SF encounters worked, and what could happen if you recklessly allowed people to die from a DoT ticking, I will be happy to fill you in. We can start with Wing3 of Underfoot Depths, and back up from there. I should still have a lot of the timers for that expac, so it would make for a great discussion.A templar + defiler learning to work together may not happen in a matter of minutes, but it is hardly mission impossible either. If I can find it easy to work with another healer, after so many years of being a multi-curing Inquisitor.... Anyone can.

There is even a huge difference betwen TsO and Sf regarding curing in my experience, but it still not even close to what it is now. On a fight like Arkatanthis (Xilaxis HM) you just maked sure you squezed in to the wall to avoid the kb trauma and stayed oor for the curse, yes the fight was very hard but not even close to current Pow fights or double casting aoe bugs back in Dov 1 in my opinion.

And im very sure that most pow content would still have been untouched and most guild would been struggling to progress in hm drunder if we still had critmit and not the new fancy gear upgrades with amazing new stats vs the old ones that came with SS 

But what most people are asking for "not just templars" in this matter is that there is other ways to make HM content, it dosent have to be cure heavy dumping the burden on healers shoulders or like it have been the last 1,5 year which benefit a more specific raidsetup to take it down, which leaves a couple of classes more or less useless. There is other ways to make a HM fight more enjoyable then having to deal with allmost a similiar things over and over again and again.

At last - once upon a time templars where the only healer class that could cure everything with devoted resolve

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:28 AM   #56
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PeterJohn wrote:

Disappointed with how Divinity's Aid is working...

6 seconds of increased healing received. This does not apply to wards?!?!? When I use Repent on the target, the amount it wards is not increased at all. This means that the increased healing only applies to direct heals on the target?

If I wait until my last reactive goes off the target in order for DA to proc, that means that most likely, the tank is going to get hit at least 1-2 times with no reactives on him before I can recast the single target reactive back on him. So I am automatically giving probably 10-20k of heals if I had just made sure the reactives never expired in the first place, just to get +30% on any direct heals for 6 seconds?

I have not gotten enough prestige points to get the ward added onto the DA, but if the ward is say 10-20k, then we are just breaking even with the lost heals from not having the reactives up for a hit or two. This seems pretty lame for a prestige ability, no?

After testing the ward on divintys aid yesterday it is just how you say it, it will break even. Maybe change this prestige to the group reactive instead?

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:42 PM   #57
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Helmarf wrote:

After testing the ward on divintys aid yesterday it is just how you say it, it will break even. Maybe change this prestige to the group reactive instead?

Hmm well that is what I was afraid of and now am even more disappointed. That is a lot of prestige points to just break even on the healing output. And it also changes how templars are played significantly, for no reasonable gain?

It is possible that those designing this prestige line are now aware how templars use their reactives. In raids, I make it a point to ALWAYS have a single target reactive on the MT. This almost always means casting the reactive well before it expires or uses all of its ticks. Now we are being asked to wait until the reactive is used up, which is a significant change. There needs to be some significant return for having to monitor when it expires and having to risk having the tank getting hit without having the reactive there to heal him afterwards.

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Old 11-01-2012, 02:29 PM   #58
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You have to take into consideration that when you get Divinity's Aid~ that buff dosen't expire when you recast Vital. So if your watching your reactives you will only loose 1 second of downtime on your single target. With melee procs you should be stacking your reactives, since on most mobs the proc hits harder than any one of our reactives can heal for. So you should have additional reactives going as your recasting vital.

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:24 PM   #59
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Dahmer wrote:

You have to take into consideration that when you get Divinity's Aid~ that buff dosen't expire when you recast Vital. So if your watching your reactives you will only loose 1 second of downtime on your single target. With melee procs you should be stacking your reactives, since on most mobs the proc hits harder than any one of our reactives can heal for. So you should have additional reactives going as your recasting vital.

It takes significantly more work to monitor for the exact moment when your reactives expire. It is not like a spell that will expire in exactly in 15 seconds. You might tick quickly down to one reactive, and then it just sits there for the next 20 seconds because of avoids or tank specials or whatever.

But I still am judging this ability conservatively, that only 1-2 hits are going to happen on the tank before you get your reactive back up. (In reality, especially when tanking multiple mobs, probably going to have even more hits without reactives than this.) This is a reasonable estimate because of the way reactives work, especially because you cannot predict reliably the exact moment when the reactive will tick off the last heal. Even using this conservative estimate, you are in the end going to end up just about even from missing those 1-2 reactive heals.

I ran Chelsith: Ancient Vaults with a bruiser MT yesterday. The reactives would sometimes tick quickly and sometimes tick very slowly. It took a lot of effort to watch for when the reactive expired. Maybe SOE wants us to depend on an ACT trigger to monitor this event for us? Anyways it is a lot of effort. This efforts needs to be worth it. Right now you are just breaking even, so not worth any effort at all.

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Old 11-01-2012, 08:40 PM   #60
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PeterJohn wrote:

Dahmer wrote:

You have to take into consideration that when you get Divinity's Aid~ that buff dosen't expire when you recast Vital. So if your watching your reactives you will only loose 1 second of downtime on your single target. With melee procs you should be stacking your reactives, since on most mobs the proc hits harder than any one of our reactives can heal for. So you should have additional reactives going as your recasting vital.

It takes significantly more work to monitor for the exact moment when your reactives expire. It is not like a spell that will expire in exactly in 15 seconds. You might tick quickly down to one reactive, and then it just sits there for the next 20 seconds because of avoids or tank specials or whatever.

But I still am judging this ability conservatively, that only 1-2 hits are going to happen on the tank before you get your reactive back up. (In reality, especially when tanking multiple mobs, probably going to have even more hits without reactives than this.) This is a reasonable estimate because of the way reactives work, especially because you cannot predict reliably the exact moment when the reactive will tick off the last heal. Even using this conservative estimate, you are in the end going to end up just about even from missing those 1-2 reactive heals.

I ran Chelsith: Ancient Vaults with a bruiser MT yesterday. The reactives would sometimes tick quickly and sometimes tick very slowly. It took a lot of effort to watch for when the reactive expired. Maybe SOE wants us to depend on an ACT trigger to monitor this event for us? Anyways it is a lot of effort. This efforts needs to be worth it. Right now you are just breaking even, so not worth any effort at all.

Exactly, this is not how this prestige should work, a change needs to be done. We have plenty of more important stuff to deal with then watching maintained spell window to get some effect out of this, like curing curses and cordinating group cures with our defiler buddys 

And with the ss prestige line you will even have more triggers to your reactive if you choiced that one which will make it even less desirable.

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