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Old 10-28-2014, 06:51 PM   #61
Errrorr

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Mogrim, I'll quote it one more time:

No one in this thread has said "omg give me uber buff of uberness I want to be above mages on ACT". All thats been said is make Scouts fun to play again and require skill, not gear.
The equivalent would be if all the warlock buttons did exactly the same apart from 1, which went off automatically every 10s. You'd have no real difference between mage a and mage b apart from whoever had the most potency/abil mod etc.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:13 AM   #62
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Mogrim = special. But can I say this? Everyone just ignore him and his walls of text trying to derail this thread into his skewed mages vs scout theories. This thread has been constructive and lets just collectively stop responding to him.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:11 AM   #63
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Assassins have had hp debuffs since EoF and have not been talked about at length in many if any balance discussions in the history of ever. Yes, they're strong for single targets. No, they don't add any skill or fun to the class. In fact they remove fun because I have to constantly be pressing these ****** 30k dps buttons to maintain debuffs, like I'm some sort of RIFT bard. You don't balance around max hp debuffs because they don't stack. A raid will never bring 2 assassins unless they significantly outparse warlocks 100% of the time, like if our average parses were swapped.

Tl;dr If you keep saying we're asking for more dps: I'll say it too, boost scout ability dps, remove Marauder's Vaunt, remove Combat Mastery, remove WDB practiced earrings, make the hp debuff component of CoE Swashbuckler only.
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:47 AM   #64
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Current stat distribution on gear and group builds are not factors that help with current, as Nezette said earlier "pacman" type parse breakdowns. In a typical mage group there are 5/6 players wearing max pot and cb gear with only the troub wearing wdb gear. In any given melee group there are, depending on group and guild, maybe 1/6 players with max pot cb gear. Before tov, potency levels were relatively similar across all groups in terms of gear. So, to some extent each group was able to maintain similar utility based distribution throughout the group.
When prestige trees came out almost all dps scouts had some form of group proc buff. Since tov began these groups lost a considerable amount of proc and ability damage and have fallen behind compared to mage groups in this respect. Melee has depended on both auto attack and procs to make up significant percentages of their parse and now both ability and proc damage has been neglected due to the gear choices melee classes must make. And to further the frustration, the only gear to obtain that combines these stats, for close range melee classes, have no stamina and a lower stat value overall.

Other factors worth pointing out and referencing from previous posts
  • How tank itemization affects current and future optimization of group based items
Tanks have other needs in terms of stats that are primarily unique to them. Perhaps, offerring tank friendly options on group based items could ensure these groups maintaining a 6/6 distribution. (other than vulak ear that never drops........)
  • chanter dps based utility comparisons
This topic might be more suitable in chanter threads but Coercers dps utility is lacking compared to their mage friendly counterparts
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:30 AM   #65
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Last night, we lolsy raided in Beta-- "lolsy" since we had a swash and BL (both geared) in raid to test stuff.

One thing stood out to me:
The brigand's output actually didn't look that bad. Her buttons, in general, took a bit of shape! Everyone else? Not so much.

Which got me thinking, "If, as Daray and Buffrat suggested, there were a potential for CAs to double-hit, this would seriously help the cause." To make it bard friendly, a general Ability-double-cast would be more desirable. It's difficult to say how much, or even if, the auto multiplier should be lowered to compensate for the gain since... beta... and folks are generally not tunnel-visioning the mobs.

Another thing:
Maurader's Vaunt seriously needs to be raid wide in order to be viable. As group only, it will only garner substantial gains in a scout dps group and a full group dedicated to scouts causes balance problems-- it made next to nil impact on my (dirge) abilities, so, if you have the swash in a fighter group, it's basically a waste.
  1. Throws off the bard balance of 2/2, unless you run 5 bards and double bard the scout group, but why?
  2. Screws mages, because you're generally not going to put sorcs/summoners in a tank group, unless you go back to the days of Pally (SK), troub, illy, sorc, healers as a fighter group... Your sorc might be a tad less than thrilled about his/her new group.
  3. Could potentially lose mage (read: summoner) spots in raids as you double up hate-transfer scouts (1 in tank group, another in scout group)-- though, no one would actually do this since mage dps would still out perform.
HP debuffs
Assuming that they're not going away, how do you truly feel about them? Honestly, as I mentioned in my OP, I wouldn't be opposed to redistributing them to chanters/bards. Chanters really need to see a boost in utility... this could be a start of a "fix" for them. If CAs were adjusted to allow for higher dps potential of ranger/assassin putting them in line with their mage T1 counterparts, I think they would/could remain desirable for raids.

Or, if you want to keep them on assassins/rangers, perhaps it would be better if they were on longer duration abilities? (I have't logged in a ranger, so I'm assuming they're similar to assassin-- feel free to correct me!) CoE, Will to Survive and Debilitate weren't so bad (all with duration of 30s+ iirc).

Aother option could be to make any group-affecting procs limited to chanters/bards, since all groups generally would have one of each... (this, again, could help keep chanters relevant). Though, I guess this *could* pose a balance issue of doubling up utility... though, an additional group proc wouldn't out perform a T1, so no one would intentionally do this, right? Plus, it really effing sucks that these items are BiS for all (but a couple) classes. If utility is buffing the group, the DPS folks would wear personal uplifters-- more gear would be relevant.


And, much agreed on coercer dps utility.

(ETA: I feel like a jerk for not giving a TLDR synopsis after Buffrat gave one for a paragraph...)
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Old 10-30-2014, 04:55 AM   #66
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The ranger's quick fix max hp debuff was just attached to searing shot which is far easier to maintain. Giving them all 5% on one ranged ca doesn't compare to sin's 4-(5) bleeds and 3 brig melee ca's. Which is fine in terms maintaining some lvl of decision making in terms of priority of cooldowns and downtime. But for assassins their downtime is a lot less than rangers and they have a lot more range and positional requirements they must deal with in relation to the script. Possibly condensing the debuffs for sins and/or increasing duration would be a reasonable change to allow for more overall ability efficiency and player enjoyment.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:21 AM   #67
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My favorite part about beta was the fact that the swash/beastlord were getting outparsed by the fury!
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:47 AM   #68
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And often by hostageratxxyyy, too! ( You know something's not right when coercer abilities hit harder than assassin's...)
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:39 AM   #69
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The numbers the Brigand put out on Beta proved my point in archetype power. If that was replicated for t1s the parse will become a laughingstock. But if it was coupled with the auto attack nerf you beg for it might work.

Then again I raid sober and don't cry when talking to Devs in our vent channel, so I notice these things.

However, if scouts offer the same raw numbers as mages, there is still the issue that they also offer more utility and move faster and often have little "fake tanking temps" to get them out of binds, and we've got jack. So if we go with these balances we still need something that brings mages to the raid other than to be gear mops.
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Old 10-30-2014, 11:56 AM   #70
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The only reason scouts might compete with mages now is Dagger Storm + Shadow dual spec. Which I guess is kind of what we asked for, more ability dps. And technically poisons are affected by potency.
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:45 PM   #71
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*sigh*
While I think its 'neat' rangers got their own little thing, history has taught me to worry greatly when rangers get their own 'special' version of mechanics.

Speaking of which I really wish an overhaul of ranged weapons would be done. Copy/paste melee weapon mechanics and tell them they need components to work (ammo). I would say make it so different types of damage ammo can be used but that would be an imbalance in the other direction. Bows would be demonstrably more flexible only having to swap ammo in damage types compared to other classes having to switch out weapons entirely.

Something like this NEEDS to be done if any shenanigans with damage type weaknesses are going to be used going forward. Damage type weaknesses that I am fervently against since all indications so far are they won't be handled correctly.

Except that's ALL the max HP rangers can debuff, brigands and assassins can debuff nearly twice as much. Cast about half as many max HP debuffs if its such a problem.

I wouldn't mind seeing max HP debuffs going away if coupled with other scout DPS tweaks, but it would have to be total. ALL max hp debuffs would have to be removed, not just some.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:49 PM   #72
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The reason I don't think dropping max health debuffs for raw damage is wise.

1) It weakens scouts and removes one of their primary values from raid,
2) if compensation for lost utility isn't perfect, either mages or scouts become redundant. You'd have to get it perfect. Think it will?
3) unique contribution is the key. If scouts turn to almost only raw damage, you all better hope it's enough while I pray it isn't too much.

...one option would be to halve hp debuffs currently in play, boost scout ability damage, and add a unique contribution to Mage abilities like amping incoming damage (perhaps buff the AA on the dragon page)
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:44 PM   #73
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I agree with the general sentiment: skillful choreographing of activated abilities should yield a demonstrable difference to the outcome in isolation compared to yourself and in relative comparison to less adept or focused peers, especially at the higher and highest levels of achievement.

Where I depart, is where the general auto-attack capability threshold is set or aimed, whether auto-attack contribution is aimed at 30 or 40 or 50 percent. At the top end, pushing more buttons should clearly distinguish your performance, conversely in the quaint mud of mediocrity, initiate, amateur, confused/returning, and lazy of us (eg. bad) scouts are much better off with less ceiling on the auto attack portion of their contribution and throttle-locked skills. There is usually enough opportunity to screw up when you are new or unseasoned that shifting effective in-your-face production from auto-attack to activated skills could make it... frustrating.

Eventually, we hope that some if not most scouts will grow and transition, and become a bit more seasoned as a player. Transitioning their potential contribution from auto to skills could be accomplished by using "vulturing stats". Over the years, we as players have at times discussed the opportunity for true trade-off items, and to a limited extent we recently saw them in the "STA-less" gear. Cool. This might be an opportunity to further demonstrate how it might fit.

Merge and extend this concept of trade-offs with a conversion mechanic we are already familiar with, similar to what we see in the Heroic tab of the Alternate Advancement window and similar to what reforging provides. Instead of just adding a straight rated bonus to a particularly interesting combat stat (potency), inflict a rated penalty on the contributing stat (wdb, dps-mod). Make the conversion interesting and compelling, so eventually, when skilled enough to push buttons, it will be a path you will want to tread down. Up to that point though, you can toil away, and still be at least marginally to middling effective. Parallel to this, "pure" gear that speaks to that most-skilled player sits available to forgo the cost of vulturing. Vulturing would be reforging for those stats that are currently "off-limits", and exchange of stats has high yield, a high cost, and from similarly limited pools to draw and contribute from and to.
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:50 PM   #74
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Find some way to give me Combat Art Double Attack please BigGrin

Potential ways:
Cap DPS mod at 1000, allow an overcap of DPS mod to CDA - Long term will lessen the scaling increase to auto attack, while still keeping it possible with WDB.
Itemise items with Flurry + CDA. For Example a belt which was 20% Flurry, can be 10% Flurry, 10% CDA. - Flurry should be a rareish stat (same for SDA imo), not something people can have near passive 100%. Doing this also has the added bonus of making several utility class buffs more worthwhile again.

Overall I'd just like my button pressing to matter more than me using my HP Debuff.
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Old 10-30-2014, 07:19 PM   #75
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RE: Poison (v2.1?)

Late in the game to see anything of the upcoming revision to the system, but it might be compelling down the road to see poison modeled after beastlord primals to a degree, where a certain base effectiveness exists, but where power comes with a certain, more active involvement in their power potential growth, and particular timed application.

And yes, moving HP debuffs out of the equation in order to allow broader discussion on fun and skill seems almost imperative. Ironically, moving them to berserkers or bruisers might be a good play, as much as moving them to enchanters or bards. Bards, dirges in particular, in my dated experience, often have enough workload to contend with, especially if pushing buttons as a scout were to actually matter. I mention berskers and bruisers because it sort of fits their role, yet being single target shouldn't necessarily amplify their strengths across the board.
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Old 10-31-2014, 12:12 AM   #76
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Shhh. Don't mention poisons.
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:45 AM   #77
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Lol, I'll totes mention the poisons! 3k dps... to 2nd only to auto! It's so lols...

It's gotta feel good knowing that all that button clicking < passive poison procs.


Whatevs. I've gotten pretty good at imagining that my buttons do things-- I'm like a mime, yo!

(Can we get mime appearance gear? ... or make the scout sets look like clown suits? Alternatively, a bunny onesie could work. Also, have your art team reconsider the toy horsie-on-a-stick weapons that Kat submitted. I'd actually spend money on them...)
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:46 PM   #78
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I'm not against some type of CA double attack to make them more worthwhile. But I'd be against using your example of DPS over cap or any other similar stat over cap. Using something like that will benefit certain scouts over others because of the conversions in the Heroic tree's.
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:47 PM   #79
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Was just an example. Could be something more generic, like weapon skills for example. That would also reduce auto attack by an amount.
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Old 10-31-2014, 07:24 PM   #80
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If it were merged with SDA to be a generic ability double, casting speed would cover both.

If you wanted a CADA, the only overcap conversion that would be on par with casting speed would be multi-attack with it's low soft cap. As a side note, if they were to decide to go this route, it would be a start to give more relevance to the temp buffs of a few classes: Ruthless Cunning, Deadly Focus, Killing Instinct.
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Old 10-31-2014, 10:50 PM   #81
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Cast Speed would work. To the best of my recollection no scout has a heroic conversion for it. If multi attack was used there are scouts that have that as a conversion option. Those scouts would gain a double benefit of the CADA and their conversion bonus. While other scouts would only get the CADA benefit. Why I said it would be a bad way to go in my opinion.
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Old 10-31-2014, 11:26 PM   #82
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To be fair, it's a beyond ****** conversion anyway... Set the conversions for DPS or Haste-- things that don't currently completely blow above 120...
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Old 11-01-2014, 09:44 AM   #83
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I feel the need to bump the fact that all group based items should be available for all classes, especially tanks. At the moment, these groups are at a disadvantage of only one of the existing practiced items be tank friendly. That leaves 3/4 slots one person in those groups cannot wear to optimize these effects in these groups.
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Old 11-01-2014, 07:26 PM   #84
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Assassin's get a constant 6% with another 2% up 80% of the time if they can stand within 5m when Stealth Assault comes back up.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:11 AM   #85
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So I finally got around to looking at the Wizlock prestige and I agree with you that you all do need something better on it Mogrim, but your thread is full of quality of life improvements for warlocks, and yet you come over here and say that scouts don't need anything changed because anything SoE did would increase our power relative to mages?

SoE really just needs to cut raid mobs hp by roughly 25% to account for hp debuffs, lower auto attack damage across the board, increase the base damage of scout CAs by approx. 300-400%, increase fighter taunts to about 4-5x what they are now, increase melee options for priests by about the same as they do for scouts, and then tweak it to fine tune the balance to something that is considerably more even. Setting chanters roughly equal to bards, and the T1 dps roughly equal with their own abilities in situations that SoE then has to build into each expansion, and make the last tier or two roughly equal for them.

Also, Unda Arcanus Spiritus either needs to be nerfed or Dagger Storm needs to be buffed, mages are getting 20mil damage out of UAS compared to the roughly 4-5mil for Dagger Storm. Also, UAS had both its cast and recovery times removed, I'm sure the scouts would love that for Dagger Storm.
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Old 11-02-2014, 02:30 AM   #86
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UAS is fine as it is. I had 300k zw on the zone we just did.. the ranger had 311k dagger storm and guess what was his highest dmg after auto? caustic poison at 497% which was 9% of his overall dps.
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Old 11-02-2014, 03:59 AM   #87
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I don't think you are doing it right
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Old 11-02-2014, 04:30 AM   #88
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still learning the ability, got it hit over 20m before, but still the fact that i need to be in sync 100% with the illy for tw and lose close range aoes while i joust is some sacrifice worth. Poisons on the other hand are procs.. means they require no skill or timing to get them off.. just do your regular ca spam and they'll go off wheneven they like.
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:29 AM   #89
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you don't really have to be in sync with your illy at all....in fact I wouldn't cast it during TW really, but that's just me. /shrugs
SDA does boost the damage, but eh yea
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Old 11-02-2014, 05:16 PM   #90
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Alright, so ignoring UAS from my previous post, I still want Mogrim to either get out of this thread or stop whining about all the QoL changes that scouts want, considering the fact that his thread is full of QoL changes.
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