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Old 07-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #31
Felshades

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feldon30 wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Think about this for a second.

I did.

No thanks.

Also, this nonsense about trying to blame or punish players for 1-89 not being relevant.... Sorry, but the devs (admittedly under a different Sr Producer and different Lead Designer) abandoned that ground with Sentinel's Fate and Destiny of Velious.

Through The Shadow Odyssey, there had been a concerted effort with updates, revisions, revamps, reworks, etc. to keep 1-80 useful. Lavastorm Revamp, Butcherblock Mts Revamp, Sinking Sands Revamp, Greater Faydark revamp, Kingdom of Sky Revamp, fixing all the loot, levels, tiers, and respawn times on almost every contested Named in the game, and the Great Bug Stomp. The amount of development hours spent to keep 1-80 usable was almost absurd.

But then, they seemingly just threw in the towel with SF and DoV and adopted what players had been saying for a while: "If you aren't 85, you're a ham sandwich".

Maybe Dynamic Dungeons will bring some meaning back to 60-89, as well as the Dungeon Finder which will work on all dungeons down to level 10. But in the mean time, for many players, 1-89 is just an extended solo tutorial I'm sorry to say.

I'd better be able to set those dungeons at a grey level for quests.

There's no way in hell anyone is going to get a group at 90 to do ruins of varsoon for quests for example. If you can't solo it, you're sol.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:02 PM   #32
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

One of the most persistant and common complaints that pops up in thread after thread here is the lack of new players.  On many gaming sites and even on the most recent EQ2 article on Massively.com people commented that when they tried the Live servers there were no groups and no one below 90. 

So this got me thinking.  What could possibly assist in the situation other than converting the servers to Extended?  Ending mentoring and RAF came to mind.

Think about this for a second.  RAF is used by people to bring others in.  They get them in and instantly begin mentoring them and power leveling them up to level 90 in only days.  The new player never gets to see the content of the game or experience the myriad quests, events, or lore that made it what it is.  And because of them hitting 90 so fast there is no need for grouping.  The current 90s wouldn't even have lower level characters unless they wanted to take it slow.... usually solo.

I know Smokejumper mentioned a re-do of mentoring.  I say do something better.  End mentoring and end RAF.  In the end they've created more problems than they are worth.

It's cool that you're trying to think of ideas to make the old content more populated. I'm a huge supporter of that concept. I love the old content. And I'm not one of those people that immediately jump into any thread being a killjoy to someone's idea.

But respecfully, I really disagree with this one. I don't think removing mentoring will get vets to roll alts. I think it'll just prevent them from doing the old content at all. I've played enough MMO's without mentoring to see that happen all too often. At least with the mentoring and PLing, we're still bringing folks into the game because they'll have friends to play with. If you remove that mechanic (IMO) it would be a devastating low to new blood on the live servers. Basically, I think you're greatly underestimating the amount of people that are completely devoted to 1 character or completely lacking new character slots.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:03 PM   #33
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no, bad idea.  what they need to do is fix mentoring so its not broken.  right now, if i chronomentor, my XP scales down depending upon how much i mentored down (as little as 5%).  if i mentor a player, it is always 50% or more.  this discourages grouping. 

right now, menotring down means you are overpowered.  if they change that, it might encourage less mentoring down.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:06 PM   #34
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Mentoring is one of the strengths of this game.  It allows me to take my main back and do the huge number of quests I didn't do while leveling.   It also lets me play with low level friends.  Not all of us power level either.  Some of us mentor just to get to do the quests or play with a friend.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:36 PM   #35
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Mentoring isn't used just for power leveling alts and new players. As others have already said it's also used by high level players to play with low level players. Personally, I mostly use mentoring to go back and do old content I've missed over the years to make it more enjoyable than just doing everything grey. Not to mention there are some quests you can't get unless you mentor to the correct level.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:39 PM   #36
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

One of the most persistant and common complaints that pops up in thread after thread here is the lack of new players.  On many gaming sites and even on the most recent EQ2 article on Massively.com people commented that when they tried the Live servers there were no groups and no one below 90. 

So this got me thinking.  What could possibly assist in the situation other than converting the servers to Extended?  Ending mentoring and RAF came to mind.

Think about this for a second.  RAF is used by people to bring others in.  They get them in and instantly begin mentoring them and power leveling them up to level 90 in only days.  The new player never gets to see the content of the game or experience the myriad quests, events, or lore that made it what it is.  And because of them hitting 90 so fast there is no need for grouping.  The current 90s wouldn't even have lower level characters unless they wanted to take it slow.... usually solo.

I know Smokejumper mentioned a re-do of mentoring.  I say do something better.  End mentoring and end RAF.  In the end they've created more problems than they are worth.

Picking a few individuals statements and presuming it reflects the beliefs or feelings of everyone is just inflammatory.  There are "no groups"?  and "no players under 90"?  None? Really??  Are we playing the same game??

Hmm....not my experience at all.  Of course, I mentor...and run old zones with folks (when my busy schedule allows)..and am generally nice, helpful and good to hang out with.  I don't ask for much, and realize that sometimes what I need does not jive with the schedules of the other folks playing.  But hey...somehow..I find groups...and lots of folks "under 90".   

The Devs, through their most recent expansion, and again with the most recent fiasco called a "world event" have made it clear they are working on end-game content.  Hopefully that will change with the revamp of Freeport and eventually Qeynos. The direction of the game...the content being created,  is the real issue with the "new player" experience......

But the removal of the RAF, the last tool the folks on live have available to bring in new players (since there is absolutely no advertising) isn't something that should concern F2P player, or for that matter, anyone.  You don't have to do it.  Really.

And mentoring?  If you don't like it, don't do it.  I have seen folks putting together groups, and they specifically refuse mentored folks.  That's cool.  I understand and don't hold it against them.  But when I can, I am ready to step in, mentor (and hold back so that those I am grouped with can get a sense of accomplishment), and enjoy meeting some new folks and revisiting old haunts.  After all these years, there are still a lot of places I haven't been!

I am not sure how either of these mechanics have "created more problems than they are worth".  Perhaps you can explain the problems these two features have caused....introducing folks to the live server?   Helping others out?  Allowing folks who may have rushed through content to revisit and experience them for the first time..or again? 

Those are problems?

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Old 07-24-2011, 05:10 PM   #37
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I don't see where ending mentoring would do anything but drive more people away.  If you get a new player, they already have issues finding groups for lower level content.  Take away mentoring and even the higher levels can't be of use to those lowbie/newbie people.  So instead of giving them more folks to choose from, you take more folks away.  Makes no sense.

Right now, even if you can't find a group your own level, chances are you can find people willing to mentor down and run with you.  You take that away and you have a solo grind to 90?

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Old 07-24-2011, 05:34 PM   #38
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

Keep believing that.  Especially when the behind the scenes is they are already talking more mergers. 

care to supply proof of this, or are your just speaking out of your , unless you can supply documented validated proof that they are "talkng more rmergers" then you are voicing nothing but unfounded rumors/

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Old 07-24-2011, 05:35 PM   #39
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As a general rule, forcing people into a particular style of play will not work. Players have choices - from other MMOs, to single player games, to any other leisure activity out there. Thus, any argument that includes something along the lines of 'this will force players to...' is going to fail.

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Old 07-24-2011, 05:47 PM   #40
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

p3t3rl1 wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

p3t3rl1 wrote:

Lol terrible idea. You want to have more empty lower levels? That is how you do it. 

Like SJ said, the two gaming services have largely separate playstyles. On the live servers there is a significant portion of people who only play at the cap level and experience the end-game content. Mentoring faciliates that kind of gameplay and at the same time allow high levels to relive the low-level experienced whenever they want. 

Terrible idea... how?  Please elaborate.  By ending mentoring and RAF you force players to actually have a new alt in order to play with their friends.  This encourages the formations of groups.  Groups that are sorely missing and is commented on frequently.

I'll highlight one directly from Massively:

"When I last played EQ2 seriously around two years ago, even then there simply weren't enough people below the level cap to group up with."

And another good one that sums up the prior posters here:

"eventually the dedicated players reach end game and tire of leveling alts, so new players are left alone in the low level areas."

Like Gaige already said, and it may not sink in for you, so let me repeat again. It will not encourage grouping, the high level friends will still powerlevel their low level friends. 

Dungeon finders and mercenaries are coming, might be a solution you are looking for. 

Keep believing that.  Especially when the behind the scenes is they are already talking more mergers.  All the while they are saying new Extended server in 2012.

New extended server?  You must mean the 2nd extended server that was supposed to be released a month after freeport yet was never released because it was not needed due to lack of playerbase.

This is one of those situations where quoting secondhand information from an unreliable source was a bad idea.

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Old 07-24-2011, 05:59 PM   #41
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

p3t3rl1 wrote:

Lol terrible idea. You want to have more empty lower levels? That is how you do it. 

Like SJ said, the two gaming services have largely separate playstyles. On the live servers there is a significant portion of people who only play at the cap level and experience the end-game content. Mentoring faciliates that kind of gameplay and at the same time allow high levels to relive the low-level experienced whenever they want. 

Terrible idea... how?  Please elaborate.  By ending mentoring and RAF you force players to actually have a new alt in order to play with their friends.  This encourages the formations of groups.  Groups that are sorely missing and is commented on frequently.

I'll highlight one directly from Massively:

"When I last played EQ2 seriously around two years ago, even then there simply weren't enough people below the level cap to group up with."

And another good one that sums up the prior posters here:

"eventually the dedicated players reach end game and tire of leveling alts, so new players are left alone in the low level areas."

No, ending mentoring wouldn't encourage formation of groups.  It would do the opposite, in my opinion.  I find it doubtful that many people want to take the time and expense to create yet another character, just to play with friends.  It's much more feasible for people to simply mentor down.  If you're that concerned about being low-level and having people to group with, then go play on the Freeport server in EQ2X.  I don't say that to be rude in any way, so please forgive me if it seems that way.  Freeport is (or, was, the last time I logged on) bustling at lower levels.  If you're looking for lots of people to play with in the lower tiers, then that may be the place for you.

Beyond that, is the fact that most of Sony's energy is spent on the end game.  Where are all of the mechanics changes centered?  The end game.  Where is all of the "cool" content?  The end game.  Ergo, any attempt to force people to play in another area of the game more would be somewhat contrary to the way that Sony develops the game.  EQ2 has always been that way.

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Old 07-24-2011, 06:13 PM   #42
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deadcrickets2 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

One of the most persistant and common complaints that pops up in thread after thread here is the lack of new players.  On many gaming sites and even on the most recent EQ2 article on Massively.com people commented that when they tried the Live servers there were no groups and no one below 90. 

So this got me thinking.  What could possibly assist in the situation other than converting the servers to Extended?  Ending mentoring and RAF came to mind.

Think about this for a second.  RAF is used by people to bring others in.  They get them in and instantly begin mentoring them and power leveling them up to level 90 in only days.  The new player never gets to see the content of the game or experience the myriad quests, events, or lore that made it what it is.  And because of them hitting 90 so fast there is no need for grouping.  The current 90s wouldn't even have lower level characters unless they wanted to take it slow.... usually solo.

I know Smokejumper mentioned a re-do of mentoring.  I say do something better.  End mentoring and end RAF.  In the end they've created more problems than they are worth.

That is a very bad idea.  First of all, Live and Extended are just as they should be.  Seperated.  The option is there for anyone on Live to go to Extended if that is what they choose.  It is not something that should be forced on to Live players who do not want to deal with it.

If mentoring is done away with, how are higher level players supposed to group with and help out lower level players?  I have a friend who recently started playing the game for the first time.  Without mentoring, I never would have been able to group with her and enjoy playing the game with her, unless I rolled a new character (which was not something I wanted to do, and I shouldn't be forced to every time I want to help out a lower level character).  Being able to chrono down to a lower level also allows me to go back to any lower level area at any time I choose, giving me more play options.

The way things are allows for many different playstyles, which is as it should be.  Taking away that freedom of choice is not the way to solve anything, and will only serve to decrease player populations even further.

And what's wrong with rolling new?  The addition of mentoring years ago was a terrible idea.  Much as I still believe the removal of the shard run and the "grey mobs are now agro" change early on were bad ideas.

and what is wrong with helping a friend come play level to where you can both play your prefered toons.  Stop trolling the live forums if you like extended so well stay there stop tyring to force your play style on others.

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Old 07-24-2011, 06:15 PM   #43
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LOL, this troll will type anything to validate its arguement.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:22 PM   #44
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Mentoring doesn't help new players.  Mentoring forces players to watch in frustration as some mentor/chronomentor demolishes the dungeon they want to have fun in.

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Old 07-24-2011, 06:26 PM   #45
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Dasein wrote:

As a general rule, forcing people into a particular style of play will not work. Players have choices - from other MMOs, to single player games, to any other leisure activity out there. Thus, any argument that includes something along the lines of 'this will force players to...' is going to fail.

Exactly right.  All you do is annoy people when you try and force them to do things.  What needs to happen is, you find out what people like to do and then you enhance that.

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Old 07-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #46
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Mentoring doesn't help new players.  Mentoring forces players to watch in frustration as some mentor/chronomentor demolishes the dungeon they want to have fun in.

Fun for me in an old mmo is getting to cap asap so I can begin playing the actual game.

Fun for you is not the same as fun for everyone else...

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Old 07-24-2011, 07:42 PM   #47
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Mentoring doesn't help new players.  Mentoring forces players to watch in frustration as some mentor/chronomentor demolishes the dungeon they want to have fun in.

Mentoring does not force anyone to do anything. You do not have to mentor.  You do not have to accept being mentored.  Geez...is it that hard?

Mentors can mentor in a few ways.  Some power level (not me..not my style).  Others can, like me, be there to offer input and feedback, company, buffs and help when it's needed.  My way, frankly, is a support position..not a power position.  I don't like powerleveling as a game play style, but I sure don't mind that others do.

Once again though..don't make blanket assumptions about how folks wish to play, or what the game (or its mechanics "force" players to do).  If the mechanic does not work for you, isn't your style, or just isn't fun for you, don't use it.

And Deadcrickets has a troll as his avatar. Just sayin.

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:03 PM   #48
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i agreed with Tylia and Peter 1.

there is reason to help new friends getting into the game, also i need transmute items for crafting.

it is cheaper to mentoring than buying overpriced items for transmuting, i could buy when the inflated prices go down to reasonable costs.

i got my brother in law and he likes it, and he need help and cant find anyone in "His Level", he would quit if there is no mentorship.

he doesnt want me killing greyed mobs and following me just for updates?

Mentoring is very important part of the game.

often i go down few levels and find missing armor parts to complete a set, due they are no-trades or hierloom, and cant buy from other players.

just play the game the way you feel, dont ever, EVER forced others to play your way.

Edited to add, I mentored down for specific levels because i missed some of older quests, you cant get it at 90, go down some levels and you find plenty of outgrowned quest "feathers".

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:03 PM   #49
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Definately vote no to this one.

I see a retool of mentoring so that you are not quite God-like in your ability to overgear the mobs, but at this time in the MMO world we have levels that drip feed you the skills and give you a chance to learn your class. We also have friends and guildies whom we wish to play with.

Removing mentoring is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. It will do nothing to address anything but return this game back to where the other MMOs without mentoring are -- shortages of players.

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:04 PM   #50
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Mentoring doesn't help new players.  Mentoring forces players to watch in frustration as some mentor/chronomentor demolishes the dungeon they want to have fun in.

Mentoring does not force anyone to do anything. You do not have to mentor.  You do not have to accept being mentored.  Geez...is it that hard?

Mentors can mentor in a few ways.  Some power level (not me..not my style).  Others can, like me, be there to offer input and feedback, company, buffs and help when it's needed.  My way, frankly, is a support position..not a power position.  I don't like powerleveling as a game play style, but I sure don't mind that others do.

Once again though..don't make blanket assumptions about how folks wish to play, or what the game (or its mechanics "force" players to do).  If the mechanic does not work for you, isn't your style, or just isn't fun for you, don't use it.

And Deadcrickets has a troll as his avatar. Just sayin.

You know, mentoring does force me to do something.  If I take a low level character to, say, wailing caverns, and lo and behold, there's either a chronomentored person or simply am entor powerleveling a buddy.  They're hogging the entire dungeon because the mentor can just pull half of it at a time and kill it without even losing health.

So, yes, mentoring does force me to do something.  It forces me to leave dungeons I'd rather enjoy leveling in, simply because there's nothing I can do if I don't have an easymode mentor buddy to compete with all the other mentors.

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:09 PM   #51
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

And Deadcrickets has a troll as his avatar. Just sayin.

(( Did you really just stoop to generalise a person's post by their race? Wow!))

Trolls may have bad dental hygine and dubious cooking skills but they are just as much Norrathian as any Human, Koada'dal or Ratongan is. Besides given the choice of a Troll or an Ogre, well, at least the Troll is moderately eloquent and doesn't have a bad case of gas. Some Troll ladies are even somewhat hot... although the size difference can be an issue for us Ratongans!

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:13 PM   #52
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rebelleo, sorry to hear that.

maybe you could ask how long they staying, or come back later.

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Old 07-25-2011, 05:27 AM   #53
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I love the mentoring system, It is definitely Needed in this game. It would be tragic for so many people myself included if it was gone....but I'd like to see it scaled down properly so that when a 90 mentors to 30 their spells actually do the lvl 30 damage, sure they would be better because of more spells and AA abilities but the actual dmg would scale properly, .. that I think would cure the problem of going to play a zone and having it cleared by a 90 SK and his power levelee, also make it more fun for the real level 30's in the group so that they don't just go on autofollow while the work is done for them and not being able to hit something before it's already dead. Bring back the challenge of those old zones and better loot and rewards and more people will play them for fun instead of just the quickest way to 90

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Old 07-25-2011, 05:46 AM   #54
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Zaldor wrote:

My actual gaming experience is 100% opposite of what the OP is trying to put forth.

I would never judge the status of a game by the QQ on forums or blogs.

I vote no.

Ditto.

Everytime I have started an alt the beginning areas were busy.

Only 2 in my, albeit small, guild are 85.  Everyone else is mid level and in no hurry to rush to end content.

So, I caution the OP, don't use absolutes and don't judge the game for what 'might be'.  Enjoy it in the here and now.

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Old 07-25-2011, 05:58 AM   #55
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No from me.

The lack of new players is not down to mentoring ( lol ) it's down to all new players being forced onto eq2x and no real advertisement happening for eq2. That is the root of the problem.

OP, you're barking up the wrong tree.

What you are proposing is like this ... My leg hurts but I don't want to go to the doctor for whatever reason.

So my other option is to just chop it off and that will definitely stop the pain since there's nothing left ...

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Old 07-25-2011, 08:11 AM   #56
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Yes mentors can take alot more mobs than unmentored folks.. if i am mentored for farming or helping someone and i see a group coming through that isnt just farming, i stop and let them pass... i dont need the AA from the named, it will be back up in 20 minutes etc.. you also have the rude mentored folks who JUMP past your group JUST to kill the named then move on to the next room... thats just plain rude and they should be reported (imo)... Its just like life.. you have nice great people that will give you the shirts off of their back, and you have nasty vindictive jerks who only care about number 1 (themselves)... Sorry you have had bad experiences... need a friend to mentor you on AB? Give me a call, and ill group with you with either one of my 90s or many of my level locked toons.. Playstyles are what you make of it, not just what you experience...goooooossssfraaaaaaaaaaabaa....
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:35 AM   #57
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darwich wrote:

Yes mentors can take alot more mobs than unmentored folks.. if i am mentored for farming or helping someone and i see a group coming through that isnt just farming, i stop and let them pass... i dont need the AA from the named, it will be back up in 20 minutes etc.. you also have the rude mentored folks who JUMP past your group JUST to kill the named then move on to the next room... thats just plain rude and they should be reported (imo)... Its just like life.. you have nice great people that will give you the shirts off of their back, and you have nasty vindictive jerks who only care about number 1 (themselves)... Sorry you have had bad experiences... need a friend to mentor you on AB? Give me a call, and ill group with you with either one of my 90s or many of my level locked toons.. Playstyles are what you make of it, not just what you experience...goooooossssfraaaaaaaaaaabaa....

There is a reason why those zones are called contested.  You don't have any more right to those mobs than any other player.  All I heard in this entire post is whining on how you didn't get what you wanted, yet you talk about other players thinking about themselves.  Get over it.  Move on.  It's a game!

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Old 07-25-2011, 08:53 AM   #58
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My opinion is that the concept of mentoring is a great idea for EQ2, and it should not be scrapped. But some legitimate issues have been raised in this thread.Any time a level 90 character with half decent equipment mentors a lowbie, it is literally like a god is walking among the ants. This works great for people who desire nothing more than grinding a semi-AFK friend to level 90 ASAP. But this is a very poor mechanic for someone who is trying to actually play, or is new to EQ2, as it is highly probable they will feel left out, and become bored due to the inability to provide ANY kind of meaningful contribution.How to solve this with as little emo QQ from the two sides of the fence as possible?1) Re-evaluate how powerful a character is when mentoring. I am NOT saying nerf them into oblivion, but stat-flation and sky rocketing DPS has made mentored down toons entirely too powerful. Toning it back a bit would be for the best, but would need to be done with due consideration and testing to ensure there is not drastic impacts at different level ranges.And, combine that with :2)The lowbie that gets mentored, should be granted stat boosts so they are of approx comparable power (hp, mana, stat lines, crits (chance/bonus), reuse, MA, potency etc etc) as the person mentoring. This way, the person being mentored can actually contribute in a meaningful way, and not feel like the peon in the company of a god.For people who want to mentor down to help their friends, but for what ever reason the lowbie does not want to be "boosted" by the mentor effect, the high level toon can use a chronomentor to solve the issue.If done right, heroic mobs should not get 1 shotted 99% of the time, the lowbie being mentored will actually be able to contribute in the adventuring/questing, and the character mentoring down will still be providing generous assistance to their friend.

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:36 AM   #59
arthemis1er

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Gaige wrote:

This game is seven years old, its top heavy.  Nothing will change that and punishing vets by not allowing them to get their friends to 90 where the game starts is silly~

The game starts @ level 90 ?

Weird, i though the game started at level 1. But hey that's just me. Maybe i'm the only one who realized that there are a LOT of quests, access quests, heritage quests, tradeskilling quests - you name it - before even reaching level 30.

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:46 AM   #60
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tfetterman wrote:

darwich wrote:

Yes mentors can take alot more mobs than unmentored folks.. if i am mentored for farming or helping someone and i see a group coming through that isnt just farming, i stop and let them pass... i dont need the AA from the named, it will be back up in 20 minutes etc.. you also have the rude mentored folks who JUMP past your group JUST to kill the named then move on to the next room... thats just plain rude and they should be reported (imo)... Its just like life.. you have nice great people that will give you the shirts off of their back, and you have nasty vindictive jerks who only care about number 1 (themselves)... Sorry you have had bad experiences... need a friend to mentor you on AB? Give me a call, and ill group with you with either one of my 90s or many of my level locked toons.. Playstyles are what you make of it, not just what you experience...goooooossssfraaaaaaaaaaabaa....

There is a reason why those zones are called contested.  You don't have any more right to those mobs than any other player.  All I heard in this entire post is whining on how you didn't get what you wanted, yet you talk about other players thinking about themselves.  Get over it.  Move on.  It's a game!

Hey i know its a game... and yes it is contested... but there are also a thing called manners, and just plain not being jerks...

I am by no means whining, i just said as you can see... IMO... which i am entitled to, just as the OP is entitled to say get rid of mentoring... I just posted what I DO and offered assistance if he was on AB..   If its one guy running through behind me, yeah im gona take the named myself.. but if its a group, going through, i let them have it, because i believe in karma , and everyone having good gameplay, not just me SMILEY

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