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Old 10-27-2012, 01:30 AM   #1
Davngr1

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 it's ridiculous that my scout is so dependent on reuse temp buffs when every other dps class and even tanks are 50% + reuse while my scout is at 20%~ unless i find tank gear that's scout useable.  further more this causes one scout in the raid to be amazing the others to not perform at their potential do to availability of the temp buffs.   there isn't a single troubadour WW that would be bothered by not having to constantly spam jcap on people constantly.   not one..  i raided a troub for years and that was one of my biggest pet peeves about the class.

 same deal with double cast being so rare.  i understand that warlock/illy buffs might loose some effectiveness if more double cast in put in game but i don't think there's a single mage that would mind having 50% double cast.     make that the cap(gear cap) or something.

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Old 10-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #2
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overabundance of spell double attack would totally mess up dps that is actually pretty well balanced for once in a long time.

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Old 10-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #3
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i don't see how a caster having 20% more double cast would unbalance anything as long as the scouts got 100% reuse.     right now it's only one scout (maybe two) in the raid that get 100% reuse and they dominate for the most part.

 also why should my scouts CoV and other clickys (dps whatever) have to be on a longer recast than a healers or casters or even fighters?     

 no clue what started this "lets not give reuse to scouts" trend but it's dumb and needs to be stopped.

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Old 10-27-2012, 06:25 PM   #4
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Every bit of spell double cast helps all mages more than it helps Warlocks because Warlocks benefit from both TW and FC and as a result, their "better" spells are up less often. If we add ANY more double cast, it should become "multi-cast". But there shouldn't be too much more of it, really.

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Old 10-28-2012, 01:49 AM   #5
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You are missing a key piece. Scouts have auto attack and its does WELL. Obviously for a long time mages had no equivilant and their current 'spell auto attack' is laughable and from what I hear it won't be improving any time soon. Reuse on scout abilities is strongly based upon them having auto attack and being able to keep good CA's 'down'. Beyond that, reuse also has no benefit beyond 100% reuse at the moment, so any significant advances in reuse would require some sort of 'over cap' conversion to be implemented as well as balancing said conversion.

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Old 10-29-2012, 06:29 PM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:

You are missing a key piece. Scouts have auto attack and its does WELL. Obviously for a long time mages had no equivilant and their current 'spell auto attack' is laughable and from what I hear it won't be improving any time soon. Reuse on scout abilities is strongly based upon them having auto attack and being able to keep good CA's 'down'. Beyond that, reuse also has no benefit beyond 100% reuse at the moment, so any significant advances in reuse would require some sort of 'over cap' conversion to be implemented as well as balancing said conversion.

  every other class has higher reuse than scouts and there's no issue with cap being 100% for them.   my mages/healrs just spec into other stuff when they reach 100% reuse so that argument is invalid.

  the scouts that do good damage is because they are given 100% reuse by a bard/shaman if such buffs are not available to them, their damage falls sharply.  so in short scout damage is directly dependent on the group and support they receive much more than mages (exept necro who requres heals) who don't require constant temp buffing.

  personally think that having to deal with noob shaman and troubadours who jcap/roa terrible targets just because they're too lazy or flat out don't care to constantly buff a certain player, is dumb or flat out impossible since there just aren't enough of these classes to buff every scout.  

   maybe add reuse to the chanter single target buffs or make roa and jcap *until canceled*

Mogrim wrote:

Every bit of spell double cast helps all mages more than it helps Warlocks because Warlocks benefit from both TW and FC and as a result, their "better" spells are up less often. If we add ANY more double cast, it should become "multi-cast". But there shouldn't be too much more of it, really.

  i already brought this up in my initial post thus you're only repeating exactly what has all ready been stated.   wizards have long recast as well so this would benefit chanters (who do terrible damage right now) summoners who aren't doing insane damage compared to sorc and it's not like having everything else you cast have a chance to double cast too would lower your damage even as a lock.  

   the classes that should not see benefit from this are crusaders and that's why i specifically said mages/scouts

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:32 PM   #7
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Dav, dps is more balanced now than it has ever been.. The classes are all parsing about what they should be. If you are actually upset about not being able to cast your COV as often then you can argue for that but thats not what this is. This is you wanting more scout dps when in all actuality it is fine and giving them more reuse would bring things out of whack.. Same thing with adding more spell double attack..

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:42 PM   #8
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I yhink what dav is arguing is that there isnt enough temps to go around for ALL the scouts in a raid.  Not wanting more DPS from his scout but to not be so dependent on temps that dramatically can increase a scout DPS like jcap n RoA.  Take 2 assassins give 1 RoA and Jcap his DPS is going to be significantly higher than the others.

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:29 AM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

Dav, dps is more balanced now than it has ever been.. The classes are all parsing about what they should be. If you are actually upset about not being able to cast your COV as often then you can argue for that but thats not what this is. This is you wanting more scout dps when in all actuality it is fine and giving them more reuse would bring things out of whack.. Same thing with adding more spell double attack..

read this:

lodgepark8485 wrote:

I yhink what dav is arguing is that there isnt enough temps to go around for ALL the scouts in a raid.  Not wanting more DPS from his scout but to not be so dependent on temps that dramatically can increase a scout DPS like jcap n RoA.  Take 2 assassins give 1 RoA and Jcap his DPS is going to be significantly higher than the others.

exactly.

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Old 11-01-2012, 01:56 PM   #10
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Balanced? Have you seen how much some tank classes can do in wreckless? Not to mention have the scouts I know have 600MA and then 50+ Flurry? All they do is set back and melee, throwing in a debuff now and again. They still top parse while casters have to constantly test spells to maximize there DPS to compete. If we don't have an Illy and Troub in the group we can't even compete with most melee classes. Give me a way to at least get 10% doublecast.

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:50 PM   #11
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[email protected] wrote:

Dav, dps is more balanced now than it has ever been.. The classes are all parsing about what they should be. If you are actually upset about not being able to cast your COV as often then you can argue for that but thats not what this is. This is you wanting more scout dps when in all actuality it is fine and giving them more reuse would bring things out of whack.. Same thing with adding more spell double attack..

Fighters that say DPS is balanced where it should be make me laugh. Fighters were given reckless so they would still have a place in raid when they are not tanking. Give healers some bard buffs in case you have extra healers, give mages a stout stance so they can tank...  It is much easier to gear up a fighter than a mage and a fully deck out fighter in PoW gear has more worth than a mage with a couple of pieces of PoW gear. When you have tanks in the top 5 on a parse it is NOT balanced as long you still want to have DPS classes. If you want to make every classes about the same on a DPS parse then give the DPS classes something else that makes them valuable in a raid.

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Old 11-01-2012, 04:39 PM   #12
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Mogrim wrote:

Every bit of spell double cast helps all mages more than it helps Warlocks because Warlocks benefit from both TW and FC and as a result, their "better" spells are up less often. If we add ANY more double cast, it should become "multi-cast". But there shouldn't be too much more of it, really.

It should be multi-cast to begin with and rid the obnoxious and sometimes crippling issue of timewarp and focused casting overlaps. Both are temp abilities that are there to aide in A: balance out warlock dps in case of FC, and B: balance out mage dps compared to scouts. It's rather obnoxious that a lot of times, evenmoreso now with timewarp resets, warlocks have to hold off 30 seconds sometimes a minute to use fc as to not overlap with timewarp. Given the extreme lack of spell double attack, and the way itemization and mechanics in this game works, (See multi attack), its an eventuality that it will end up spell multi attack at some point. Why not change it now and remove a lot of the headaches as far as timing 5 and 10 second temp buffs that can reset.

Also, SDA needs to be more prevelant on gear or there needs to be a better cast speed conversion of it. I'm not saying a LOT, but at the very least, when you are using avatar jewelry due to it being good enough to break a set, you shouldn't be loosing sda in the process. items like that should have a compensation for the SDA loss. Scouts are LONG overdue on getting reuse itemization, and it'd be nice if jesters cap was back to being a mage buff given its from a troub. Scouts shouldn't be dependant on jcaps and roas.

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:17 PM   #13
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xanfer wrote:

Balanced? Have you seen how much some tank classes can do in wreckless? Not to mention have the scouts I know have 600MA and then 50+ Flurry? All they do is set back and melee, throwing in a debuff now and again. They still top parse while casters have to constantly test spells to maximize there DPS to compete. If we don't have an Illy and Troub in the group we can't even compete with most melee classes. Give me a way to at least get 10% doublecast.

Mages are topping more parses than scouts which are still beating fighters.. If your scouts are just auto attacking they are bad and if they are beating mages then the mages are even worse or your groups are messed up man..

"Fighters that say DPS is balanced where it should be make me laugh. Fighters were given reckless so they would still have a place in raid when they are not tanking. Give healers some bard buffs in case you have extra healers, give mages a stout stance so they can tank...  It is much easier to gear up a fighter than a mage and a fully deck out fighter in PoW gear has more worth than a mage with a couple of pieces of PoW gear. When you have tanks in the top 5 on a parse it is NOT balanced as long you still want to have DPS classes. If you want to make every classes about the same on a DPS parse then give the DPS classes something else that makes them valuable in a raid."

How many healers are in raid compared to fighters, 6-8.. How many bards are in raid 4 at least.. Reckless fixed fighter representation in raids on fights where they werent needed ( a lot ) now guilds dont have to drop their 4th tank for half the named. If mages were given a tank stance I wouldnt have a problem with that because they would never use it except in pugs. Same mage is worth a lot more dps'ing than tanking same thing with a fighter they are worht a lot more tanking than dps'ing.

Protip: Any dps a fighter can do in reckless, a pure dps will be able to do and more...

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Old 11-01-2012, 08:43 PM   #14
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that's the other reason why we need more SDA for mages and reuse for scouts because they ARE suppose to be damage classes and thanks to that fail tank ability reckless they are now closer than they should be to true dps classes. 

  anyone arguing against this is either raiding a tank or really dumb, probably both.

  more reuse for scouts, more SDA for mages and in something snazy to TW and FC so when those two are up it's "better" damage..  potency boost for mages and scouts?   crit bonus boost for mages and scouts?   notice i left out tanks..

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Old 11-02-2012, 09:42 PM   #15
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Davngr1 wrote:

that's the other reason why we need more SDA for mages and reuse for scouts because they ARE suppose to be damage classes and thanks to that fail tank ability reckless they are now closer than they should be to true dps classes. 

  anyone arguing against this is either raiding a tank or really dumb, probably both.

  more reuse for scouts, more SDA for mages and in something snazy to TW and FC so when those two are up it's "better" damage..  potency boost for mages and scouts?   crit bonus boost for mages and scouts?   notice i left out tanks..

Dude.. do you wake up each day and look in the mirror and say,"im going to get reckless nerfed today"? The stance would be nerfed right now if it were broken or 'fail'.. The fact of the matter is it is doing WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO and letting tanks dps near the t1 dps classes.. If you give mages more SDA not only would you defeat the initial purpose of the abilities but scouts would get blown away as would other mages who get less benefit from SDA.. Then you would probably be complaining about broken sorcs or fail summoners smashing you on the parse.

You really are lost when it comes to how these changes actually affect the game, please quit trying to act like you are some expert when most of the playerbase disagrees and more importantly, the devs disagree...

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Old 11-04-2012, 10:27 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

Davngr1 wrote:

that's the other reason why we need more SDA for mages and reuse for scouts because they ARE suppose to be damage classes and thanks to that fail tank ability reckless they are now closer than they should be to true dps classes. 

  anyone arguing against this is either raiding a tank or really dumb, probably both.

  more reuse for scouts, more SDA for mages and in something snazy to TW and FC so when those two are up it's "better" damage..  potency boost for mages and scouts?   crit bonus boost for mages and scouts?   notice i left out tanks..

Dude.. do you wake up each day and look in the mirror and say,"im going to get reckless nerfed today"? The stance would be nerfed right now if it were broken or 'fail'.. The fact of the matter is it is doing WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO and letting tanks dps near the t1 dps classes.. If you give mages more SDA not only would you defeat the initial purpose of the abilities but scouts would get blown away as would other mages who get less benefit from SDA.. Then you would probably be complaining about broken sorcs or fail summoners smashing you on the parse.

You really are lost when it comes to how these changes actually affect the game, please quit trying to act like you are some expert when most of the playerbase disagrees and more importantly, the devs disagree...

 this ability is still around because a dev is digging his heals into the ground being a baby about making it balanced. 

  "most of the player base" isn't the "cool kids" that clear POW, sorry.  that's like 1% or 2% of the player base, most of the player base is sick of seeing tanks parse way higher than they should be on 98% of content.  

 also "near t1 dps" is where T2 damage should be and crusaders are smoking T2 right now in any zone that allows them to be in reckless.

 either way..

  more reuse for scouts and more SDA along with tweeking of future damage abilities to only benefit true dps class.

  make it happen..  stop ruining the game..  

 tanks, they tank stuff.  they AREN'T DPS CLASSES.    go play a game with dps plate classes if that's what you want.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:05 PM   #17
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Most tanks I know were already soloing a lot of content (including Skyshine Heroic zones and other Velious zones before we got Skyshrine) before they got reckless stance or mercs. Reckless opened up far more solo content for them that no one else can come close to soloing on other classes.

A couple fighters with one healer could probably do a lot of content that normally takes a regularly constituted group - including some of the new heroic group zones in this expansion.

Everyone I know is now leveling fighters. It won't be long before people are trying even raid zones with mostly fighters. I'm want to try it soon.

I'm not sure how that's balanced. But, hey let's take advantage of it.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:56 PM   #18
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Tanks are better off soloing stuff in offensive and were able to do that before reckless since the damage taken isnt worth the dps gain especially since you can no longer block while in reckless.. Mercs opened up far more solo stuff than reckless did.. Nobody is raiding a raid zone with mostly fighters unless that same group was going to do so before reckless because they cant recruit better classes. Not a single guild is actively recruiting fighters for dps, groups arent looking for fighters for dps.. They just arent penalized as much now for taking a fighter in as a dps spot.

The ability is fine dav, no matter how much you WISH it to be so, it is fine. If it was a major issue or even half as big of an issue as you make it out to be there would be a lot of outcry similar to when it first came out. Guess what? Once people saw how it wasnt a huge deal.. you are the only person still championing against it.

Also point out in ONE way that this ability is ruining the game. One hard piece of evidence, not conjecture, not how you personally feel. Tell me one way that reckless has ruined this game other than HELPING smaller guilds with less ideal rosters and other guilds clear trash and trash named faster.

Maybe you should be the one to go play another game if you just cannot live with these changes since it appears they are keeping you up at night and worrying about your raid spot or spot in groups..

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #19
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I'm going to go at this in a different way.  Remove the reuse from the other classes, and give troub a groupwide jesters, or a raidwide reuse =P

Never thought I'd see the day when I get tells from healers or casters telling me not to 'waste' jesters on them... but the way some of the gear is set up, that is happening.  So much for class defning abilities.  I hear you on your reuse but I'm not exactly excited about going to every class being able to self cap reuse without some additional overcap bonus or something on the stat.

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:12 PM   #20
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Gargamel wrote:

I'm going to go at this in a different way.  Remove the reuse from the other classes, and give troub a groupwide jesters, or a raidwide reuse =P

Never thought I'd see the day when I get tells from healers or casters telling me not to 'waste' jesters on them... but the way some of the gear is set up, that is happening.  So much for class defning abilities.  I hear you on your reuse but I'm not exactly excited about going to every class being able to self cap reuse without some additional overcap bonus or something on the stat.

I'd say change the reuse to potency and make it grp wide. It'd be nice to see it be a mage buff again.

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Old 11-06-2012, 04:46 AM   #21
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Gargamel wrote:

I'm going to go at this in a different way.  Remove the reuse from the other classes, and give troub a groupwide jesters, or a raidwide reuse =P

Never thought I'd see the day when I get tells from healers or casters telling me not to 'waste' jesters on them... but the way some of the gear is set up, that is happening.  So much for class defning abilities.  I hear you on your reuse but I'm not exactly excited about going to every class being able to self cap reuse without some additional overcap bonus or something on the stat.

  i would not be against jcap and roa becoming presistant group wide buffs and thus freeing up reuse stats for reforging/other aa

[email protected] wrote:

Tanks are better off soloing stuff in offensive and were able to do that before reckless since the damage taken isnt worth the dps gain especially since you can no longer block while in reckless.. Mercs opened up far more solo stuff than reckless did.. Nobody is raiding a raid zone with mostly fighters unless that same group was going to do so before reckless because they cant recruit better classes. Not a single guild is actively recruiting fighters for dps, groups arent looking for fighters for dps.. They just arent penalized as much now for taking a fighter in as a dps spot.

The ability is fine dav, no matter how much you WISH it to be so, it is fine. If it was a major issue or even half as big of an issue as you make it out to be there would be a lot of outcry similar to when it first came out. Guess what? Once people saw how it wasnt a huge deal.. you are the only person still championing against it.

Also point out in ONE way that this ability is ruining the game. One hard piece of evidence, not conjecture, not how you personally feel. Tell me one way that reckless has ruined this game other than HELPING smaller guilds with less ideal rosters and other guilds clear trash and trash named faster.

Maybe you should be the one to go play another game if you just cannot live with these changes since it appears they are keeping you up at night and worrying about your raid spot or spot in groups..

 it's fail because people play dps classes to do damage and this allows tank classes to out parse most all dps classes expect for the highest parsers, given that said high parses have a solid group because if they have a bad group and the sk has a good group then they are going to parse just as well.   that's bad.. 

  this ability is around because the dev team is listening to "cool kids" instead of raid balance.

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Old 11-06-2012, 02:11 PM   #22
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The ability is there so that raids have at least an excuse to have more then 2 fighters in a raid.

and your right, reckless, when the tank gets the same kind of buffs the scout gets, can do comparable damage. he also takes 50% more damage from everything, and pretty much all his defense but emergencies is gone. in fact he's probably as squishy as a mage in Reckless.

this whole thing smacks of 'I play these types, and other people are outparsing me. give me more of X so I can beat them or match them on the parse'

every parse I've seen, the 'monster op dmg dealer' is the Beastlord. not a tank in Reckless. beastlords, assassins, and wizards seem to be the most massive big hitters. as well they should be. maybe throw in a warlock/ranger/conjy in the mix there and that's predominantly the top ten parsers.

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Old 11-06-2012, 03:33 PM   #23
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[email protected] wrote:

The ability is there so that raids have at least an excuse to have more then 2 fighters in a raid.

and your right, reckless, when the tank gets the same kind of buffs the scout gets, can do comparable damage. he also takes 50% more damage from everything, and pretty much all his defense but emergencies is gone. in fact he's probably as squishy as a mage in Reckless.

this whole thing smacks of 'I play these types, and other people are outparsing me. give me more of X so I can beat them or match them on the parse'

every parse I've seen, the 'monster op dmg dealer' is the Beastlord. not a tank in Reckless. beastlords, assassins, and wizards seem to be the most massive big hitters. as well they should be. maybe throw in a warlock/ranger/conjy in the mix there and that's predominantly the top ten parsers.

There are raids where 3 tanks are required for at least 98% of the guilds now. There raids where specific tank classes are required. Tell me the raid that requires 3 sorcs or the raid that requires a wizzy or a sin. Tanks already had a significant need in raids. Is it useful that tanks can do dps, of course. But when people start rolling more tanks because of the dps boost then the FIX has gone further than the intended "make current tanks less of a liability. Somebody trying to build a new raid force is 10x more likely to say "we need a bruiser" than "we need a swash". 

The right way to fix it would be make sure tanks were more relevant for keeping aggro and give DPS improvements needed for content to offset what they lack to dps classes...

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:13 PM   #24
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3 tanks required 98% of the time? nope. The last raid where specific tank classes were needed was in SF, 3 xpacs ago.. Therefore your whole 'what fight requires sorcs' argument is invalid and people are going to bring 1-4 sorcs in a raid because they wreck the parse and you would be gimping your raid to not have the highest parsing mages in it.. Tanks have always been underrepresented in raid makeup, the fact that you need 3 for some fights is the only reason a lot of guilds had more than 2 tanks on their roster even if they sat them most of the time for more dps.

You talk about people rolling tanks for dps then they are in for a rude awakening when they dont get recruited for dps or groups arent actively looking for dps tanks but will gladly take a lock, wiz, bl, assassin, conj, necro, swash, ranger, brig or hell even a 2nd bard or chanter over a tank in dps stance... They can roll fighters all they want but it doesnt mean it is smart for them to do so and it certainly doesnt mean this ability is broken when the dps classes are still topping the parses.

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Old 11-06-2012, 10:25 PM   #25
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[email protected] wrote:

3 tanks required 98% of the time? nope. The last raid where specific tank classes were needed was in SF, 3 xpacs ago.. Therefore your whole 'what fight requires sorcs' argument is invalid and people are going to bring 1-4 sorcs in a raid because they wreck the parse and you would be gimping your raid to not have the highest parsing mages in it.. Tanks have always been underrepresented in raid makeup, the fact that you need 3 for some fights is the only reason a lot of guilds had more than 2 tanks on their roster even if they sat them most of the time for more dps.

You talk about people rolling tanks for dps then they are in for a rude awakening when they dont get recruited for dps or groups arent actively looking for dps tanks but will gladly take a lock, wiz, bl, assassin, conj, necro, swash, ranger, brig or hell even a 2nd bard or chanter over a tank in dps stance... They can roll fighters all they want but it doesnt mean it is smart for them to do so and it certainly doesnt mean this ability is broken when the dps classes are still topping the parses.

lol..    in your raid the sorc top parses over everyone but in other raid forces the numbers shift to other classes.  further more you have a terrible crusader in your raid and the only good player playing a tank is a bruiser. 

  so in short you should just omit your self from all these discussions because your perceptions are meaningless.

  by the way semi skilled tanks can out parse most of those classes in reckless stance gear/buffs equal.   the only classes that offer a reckless crusader a challenge are assassins, rangers, wiz and lock and that's if they are equally buffed.    put a crusader in a double bard, illy, inquis, (random dps class) and as long as he can stay in reckless he will do T1 damage.   

 back to the topic..

  more reuse for scouts and more double cast for mages please.    make the current doublecast abilities(TW,FC) better.  add in pot/cb for non-figher classes.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:04 AM   #26
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3 tanks required 98% of the time? nope. The last raid where specific tank classes were needed was in SF, 3 xpacs ago.. Therefore your whole 'what fight requires sorcs' argument is invalid and people are going to bring 1-4 sorcs in a raid because they wreck the parse and you would be gimping your raid to not have the highest parsing mages in it.. Tanks have always been underrepresented in raid makeup, the fact that you need 3 for some fights is the only reason a lot of guilds had more than 2 tanks on their roster even if they sat them most of the time for more dps.

You talk about people rolling tanks for dps then they are in for a rude awakening when they dont get recruited for dps or groups arent actively looking for dps tanks but will gladly take a lock, wiz, bl, assassin, conj, necro, swash, ranger, brig or hell even a 2nd bard or chanter over a tank in dps stance... They can roll fighters all they want but it doesnt mean it is smart for them to do so and it certainly doesnt mean this ability is broken when the dps classes are still topping the parses.

I suspected from your first post you were just a troll, thanks for removing any doubts. If you truly believed in your position you would not need to rewrite what was said by others and then attack your rewritten version. I never said 3 tanks were required 98% of the time. If that is truly the way you understood it, then you have both math and reading comprehension issues. To make it more clear to you, my meaning was that most guilds will need 3 tanks for at least one fight in most new raid zone content for that guild. Even going back to SF, if the zone is NEW content for that guild. Once a raid zone is being farmed then of course raid makeup can change and become more flexible. Please keep in mind that not all guilds have optimal setups on any given night and many don't have the right classes to make up the ideal setup on any night.

Lets focus on the "ONE"  time you at least acknowledge the need specific tanks. Go back 6 xpacs...10... Name the raid where you had to have a sorc to win or the raid you need a sin to win. My point was and is that tanks do get a lot of consideration already when designing raid content. Most of the time if caster dps is considered by devs in a raid fight is is how they can disrupt it not enhance it...

This thread is about increasing some of the stats for the truly DPS classes. Only a FailTank would try to make the argument that tanks should be the ones to be a significant part of the "RAID" DPS. If developers want 3 tanks to be in more raids then heres a thought...design the content that way, don't do it the lazy and just give the TANKS more DPS so that they do not have to play tank. But of course you do not really care about the game, content, other guildmates...you just want more DPS...good for you. If they design content that needs more overall DPS but they want to keep the 3 tanks in then give the DPS classes more DPS...or even give tanks a way to boost others dps. When tanks are in the top 5 on a parse then something is wrong and if YOU can't make the top five on you parse while you are in reckless then I guess that explains your name.

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Old 11-07-2012, 02:10 PM   #27
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therealnakorox wrote:

I suspected from your first post you were just a troll, thanks for removing any doubts. If you truly believed in your position you would not need to rewrite what was said by others and then attack your rewritten version. I never said 3 tanks were required 98% of the time. If that is truly the way you understood it, then you have both math and reading comprehension issues. To make it more clear to you, my meaning was that most guilds will need 3 tanks for at least one fight in most new raid zone content for that guild. Even going back to SF, if the zone is NEW content for that guild. Once a raid zone is being farmed then of course raid makeup can change and become more flexible. Please keep in mind that not all guilds have optimal setups on any given night and many don't have the right classes to make up the ideal setup on any night.

Lets focus on the "ONE"  time you at least acknowledge the need specific tanks. Go back 6 xpacs...10... Name the raid where you had to have a sorc to win or the raid you need a sin to win. My point was and is that tanks do get a lot of consideration already when designing raid content. Most of the time if caster dps is considered by devs in a raid fight is is how they can disrupt it not enhance it...

This thread is about increasing some of the stats for the truly DPS classes. Only a FailTank would try to make the argument that tanks should be the ones to be a significant part of the "RAID" DPS. If developers want 3 tanks to be in more raids then heres a thought...design the content that way, don't do it the lazy and just give the TANKS more DPS so that they do not have to play tank. But of course you do not really care about the game, content, other guildmates...you just want more DPS...good for you. If they design content that needs more overall DPS but they want to keep the 3 tanks in then give the DPS classes more DPS...or even give tanks a way to boost others dps. When tanks are in the top 5 on a parse then something is wrong and if YOU can't make the top five on you parse while you are in reckless then I guess that explains your name.

So much wrong and bad.. where to begin.

First, 3 fighters I can agree with for guilds going into a place for their very first time.. Now assuming we dont have reckless, yeah im not bringing more than 2 fighters in on any of these fights because its not needed except for maybe 1-2 fights if that. The new content even avatars is pretty simple and outside of drinal I cant think of any fight where we would need more than 2 tanks since a lot of the new content actually involves scouts and mages tanking. Swarm adds? Scouts and Mages can tank them np.. So now you have a use for your fighter on 1-2 fights a night other than that, they are being sat. Seems fair right? They did have that one night where they were in the entire time.

2nd. You complain about guilds not having optimal setups then want to nerf something that helps address this very issue. Low on dps for a fight, have 2 many terrible brawler or crusaders in raid? Put them in reckless and hope htey joust or death prevent aoes and dont pull threat.. It helps your suboptimal group problem.. Lets nerf it because im scared by fighters doing dps when they bring nothing else to a fight and arent able to tank while in reckless.

3rd. You talk about how raids have never NEEDED a sorc to win like they needed a brawler on sisters or the 3mages in palace.. Care to take a guess why? Sorcerers have NEVER had trouble getting a raid spot.. Do you think they thought all guilds would be happy about having to carry a suboptimal tank at the time in a brawler that were very underpowered in ROK and didnt start to shine until late SF? No.. They did it so brawlers would actually have a shot at being in a raid and guess what? most guilds brought in alts for those fights. Where in the history of the game have mage dps or assassins ever had trouble being represented in a raid??? I am sorry you felt snubbed that your number didnt get called to do something special like tank a PITA mob. I really feel bad that you are stuck with amazing dps and if you were halfway good you never had to worry about not getting into a guild.

Just think about this for a second, let it soak in. The only reason they required certain tanks on only a few fights was because they were absent outside of those fights where guilds could bring in anybody else.. Reckless is a much better solution that doesnt punish guilds for not having say a berserker on their roster, dont you agree?

3b. If you think devs dont try and mess with EVERYBODY on fights you are sorely mistaken or dont really pay attention to whats going on outside of your little bubble.

4. Groups are already stacking 2 utility in each group sometimes 3. What utility are you going to give tanks that isnt already provided better by another class without removing the need for some other class and causing even worse issues. Lets hear some good balanced ideas other than giving tanks more dps on trash mobs nad trash named because its breaking the game and all of the sudden sorcs and scouts are having trouble finding raid spots. Another thing, you act like they are designing encounters around 

Last but not least, if you actually knew me or played with me you know I constantly sacrifice personal gains for the sake of the raid or making other people better. I play a guardian, I sacrifice personal dps for group death prevents, group stoneskins, group damage reduction, aoe blockers for other fighters.. If i really cared about my own personal DPS more than my raid and my group I would play literally any other fighter (maybe not a zerker lol.) I rarely if ever am able to actually dps in reckless because I am MT'ing every encounter this game has in it.. Nice job taking a shot at my skill as a player based off of my forum handle.. Really man, good job. You got me there.

also @dav, Sorcs, BL's summoners and assassins are going to be topping the parse no matter what the guild is, they have the highest dps potential. If you are losing parses to a crusader so badly that you have to phrase your response,'the only classes that offer a reckless crusader a challenge are..." that says more about your skill and your guilds skill overall. That or maybe you just have really good tanks but I doubt thats what it is.

If we had a BL that was worth anything I am sure they would be topping our parse but our lock, wizzies, necros, assassin would all still be right there or win any given fight. The fact that you call anybody in our guild terrible is laughable at best when you look at the roster our guild has only 2-3 guilds in the game can actually compare and the fact that POW and HM SS is full of tanking checks should tell you all you need to know about our tanks so I really wouldnt be talking too much if I were you because it kinda looks silly, dont you think?

Back to the original purpose of this thread... More spell double attack is going to unbalance dps in a major way as no other stat in the game affects dps as drastically as it does.. There is a reason why there is so little of it even on the best items in the game. It will also benefit sorcs a LOT more than any other mage classes. Reuse? Scouts are balanced around not having a lot of it. I wouldnt be totally against seeing scout CA damage boosted up a lot and the reliance on auto attack damage toned down. If they did that then you could easily justify capping reuse on scouts and adding in stats like ca double cast but this would require a lot of fine tuning but could actually be better for the games sustainability longterm.

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Old 11-07-2012, 04:43 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

Back to the original purpose of this thread... More spell double attack is going to unbalance dps in a major way as no other stat in the game affects dps as drastically as it does.. There is a reason why there is so little of it even on the best items in the game. It will also benefit sorcs a LOT more than any other mage classes. Reuse? Scouts are balanced around not having a lot of it. I wouldnt be totally against seeing scout CA damage boosted up a lot and the reliance on auto attack damage toned down. If they did that then you could easily justify capping reuse on scouts and adding in stats like ca double cast but this would require a lot of fine tuning but could actually be better for the games sustainability longterm.

Not really. I've done parses where i was around 95% spell double atk for the entire name, and lost to a beastlord. It wasn't by much, but i still did. A lot of times the parse outcome is based on the duration of the fight, the mechanics around it, and what classes end the parse in a good spike area. As duration on a fight fluxuate the class that will be spiking or in a lul will change. Also, There is no other stat left for mages, so how else are they going to balance? Please dont say spell weapon.

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Old 11-07-2012, 04:54 PM   #29
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[email protected]_old wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Back to the original purpose of this thread... More spell double attack is going to unbalance dps in a major way as no other stat in the game affects dps as drastically as it does.. There is a reason why there is so little of it even on the best items in the game. It will also benefit sorcs a LOT more than any other mage classes. Reuse? Scouts are balanced around not having a lot of it. I wouldnt be totally against seeing scout CA damage boosted up a lot and the reliance on auto attack damage toned down. If they did that then you could easily justify capping reuse on scouts and adding in stats like ca double cast but this would require a lot of fine tuning but could actually be better for the games sustainability longterm.

Not really. I've done parses where i was around 95% spell double atk for the entire name, and lost to a beastlord. It wasn't by much, but i still did. A lot of times the parse outcome is based on the duration of the fight, the mechanics around it, and what classes end the parse in a good spike area. As duration on a fight fluxuate the class that will be spiking or in a lul will change. Also, There is no other stat left for mages, so how else are they going to balance? Please dont say spell weapon.

Well that BL probably also was double proccing temps for the entire duration of the same fight on top of their primal chain with the tail end attacks all hitting for 2mill plus. Spike damage for a lot of classes is fine IMO, some spike harder and others spike more often. The SDA just sees such a large return per % in it compared to anything else in the game atm. Spell weapon really wouldnt be a viable source to give mages another stat to stack to add dps unless they redid how they work as well and made it actually do damage worth talking about.. Truthfully I do not know what stat they can add to give mages more damage but I think adding a lot of sda would potentially break a lot of things and only help certain classes while not doing much for others.

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Old 11-07-2012, 05:28 PM   #30
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And 600 multi attack with 100% flurry isnt? this game centers around a cycle of broken mechanics. SDA is just next up, and overdue.

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