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Old 05-21-2007, 01:05 PM   #31
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there is a small problem with your argument.... You assume with out titles every will pvp at every instance no matter the odds... Hey...if I die, who cares? No titles no loss... /wrong... If not title, people will promote their k/d ratio or some other stat... Would you play pvp without k/d stats? I would...but I assure you that ALOT of people would leave without that... Why? Because ALOT of people pvp for the bragging rights...to say, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT MY STATS, I'M UBER AND YOUR A NUB... That's not why I play... I play because it's fun to fight other players...to test your abilities...your dedication (items/adepts) and your experience against others... It's so much fun to take out a group of 4 when you are duoing...its fun to go down to the wire in a 1v1 pvp and lose OR win!...at least for me...It's not about the braging rights, for me its about just playing... But, I think if you take away all the players who won't play without some kind of stat system to say how good they are we will be down to 1 PvP server with very few people on...
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:10 PM   #32
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If they take out titles, people will 'farm' kill streaks etc.  Titles inspire competition.  Just like sports, there are always cheaters and people who 'cheap' shot other players (One shot skills, zone hugging, etc).  Nature of humanity or something, who knows.  Bottom line, changing one thing to 'fix' a problem, will just make them find something else to do.  Just to clarify, I think this is a fabulous idea, but I dont think removing them all togethor is a good idea, just give individual players the right to choose, that would be the bomb.
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:12 PM   #33
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azekah wrote:
there is a small problem with your argument.... You assume with out titles every will pvp at every instance no matter the odds... Hey...if I die, who cares? No titles no loss... /wrong... If not title, people will promote their k/d ratio or some other stat... Would you play pvp without k/d stats? I would...but I assure you that ALOT of people would leave without that... Why? Because ALOT of people pvp for the bragging rights...to say, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT MY STATS, I'M UBER AND YOUR A NUB... That's not why I play... I play because it's fun to fight other players...to test your abilities...your dedication (items/adepts) and your experience against others... It's so much fun to take out a group of 4 when you are duoing...its fun to go down to the wire in a 1v1 pvp and lose OR win!...at least for me...It's not about the braging rights, for me its about just playing... But, I think if you take away all the players who won't play without some kind of stat system to say how good they are we will be down to 1 PvP server with very few people on...
Omg I got busy while typing my response...our brains are apparently synchronized.  Awesome!
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Old 05-21-2007, 01:13 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:
Omg I got busy while typing my response...our brains are apparently synchronized.  Awesome!
lol
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:47 PM   #35
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Firamas wrote:
A good player's reputation preceeds them. And if you're unguilded, or mostly solo, and don't experience enough PvP to know who's good and who's not... then why do you deserve to know at a glance who is better than another person? And of course this all assumes that a high title equates to skill.  Which we all know not to be true.  There are very mediocre rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands walking around with Dreadnaught (or higher, depending on how much of a weasel they want to be), and exceptional coercers who will never see anything higher than Destroyer just due to the reality of their class. This is the Information Age, my friend, there are plenty of sources of "research" available to lay down a good groundwork of who's skilled and who's not.  Or, *gasp*, we can go out and fight one another and figure it out for ourselves... ...and for once, not care about dying while we do it.
Those might all be excellent arguments for doing away with titles, but I dont see they are good ones for individuals decidiing whether to show theirs.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:49 PM   #36
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I dont see how getting rid of titles will help anything.  If you dont like them then just ignore them.  If I'm understanding your correctly you are wanting titles gone so you dont get chased for fame?  If the title doesn't bother just stand your groud and fight them ignoring your title.  Either way you have nothing to lose if your ignoring title if you dont care about your title. 

I don't measure success by the title of the person.  But I do like seeing their title so I have an idea of the skill of a player before I engage them.  And though there are people out there that get thier title by finding loopholes in the system or questionable tactics most people earned their title by fighting well.

I could care less about my title (eventhough I'm currently a dreadnaught) even though on a 6v6 some ppl will hit you first just because your fame =D  but needless to say I dont think removing titles will fix anything at all. 

If anything should change at all it would be the mindset of the people that care about thier fame/infamy.  Until that happens (if ever) even if they take out titles there will just be something else they boast about. 

Maybe some kind of competition for players (like an ladder system, or castle you can hold) might help change some players way they measure their success in the game.  But then again maybe not =D

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Old 05-21-2007, 09:00 PM   #37
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After being back in EQ land for just about a week now - fleeing from the mediocrity of WoW - I gotta say I came here for the pvp.  Honestly...title-wise I can see justification for having em -

1.  "Look at how much of a Bad A$$ I am."  For those who earn it...sure let the colors fly if they want.

2.  It's gonna give me a clear indication of how quickly I'm either going to die or start running in the opposite direction - having a glowing "I'm going to kick your butt" sign next to your name will dictate to me sometimes how much of a greasy stain I'm going to leave on your boot if I try to stick out a fight.

3.  Yeah...It prevents pvp from people who don't want to lose their titles.  But, if they gained em legitimately the first time, they can get them back again...yes?  I can see where those who got their titles in an underhanded manner would scream like little girls and run at the thought of losing something that they *really* didn't earn...but this also gives you an idea of who's going to be an easy kill - and one that really deserves it.  SMILEY

4.  Having just joined the pvp aspect of this game, I'd personally appreciate a title for slack-butt newbs like "ZOMG!  Newbsauce Not Worth Your attention!" like myself...getting ganked repeatedly by the same basement dwelling, no social skills, never seen a live woman/man naked cephlopods - while assisting me in learning simply how much it sucks to not be twinked at my level - is getting old.  Not whining here, I take the lumps cause I came to pvp to kill and get killed, but how much fun could it be for those pimply faced, adolecent attention [Removed for Content] to repeatedly gank someone who is obviously under geared and who hasn't been level locked for the last few weeks?

5.  It's their dime...they play without honor their loss.  I keep a pad of paper next to my computer, and if behavior from any of these slack-jawed reprobates warrants it, I simply write their name down and wait my turn...cause it will come.

Now let's get out there and kick each other's A$$!

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Old 05-21-2007, 09:14 PM   #38
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Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =)
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:47 PM   #39
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/agree with gromann

but if soe where to offer the commands....i would lose my master title in a sec. i like the idea. would be fun rebuilding it. also it would be cool to lose kills and deaths too....start fresh and see how well i can do at t7. my title doesnt make me better or worst then anyone else. people who know me wouldnt take me anymore lightly in a fight ,no matter what my title.

someone get soe to listen.....at this rate we will all leave this game.

SOULHUNTER...../remove title

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Old 05-22-2007, 01:27 PM   #40
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How about this.

/hidefame

It would be a mystery to some who would and wouldn't give them fame... they can choose to show their titles, or not.  giving people choices is what it's all about.  You'd be known by reputation if that's the way you wanted it.

I doubt seriously though that any amount of tweakage is going to stop people from running.  Part of the game is to survive.  People miss that point all the time.  Simply running in, trying to kill someone getting ganked and that's it gives this game a first person shooter type mentality.  I believe there should be MORE penalty than there is for PvP death, but then that'd be too "hardcore" for some.

What does it matter really?  If you dont care about the title system, there's easy enough ways to "get rid" of your title.

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Old 05-22-2007, 05:00 PM   #41
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Firamas wrote:
Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =)

Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp SMILEY   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.

I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level SMILEY

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Old 05-22-2007, 05:08 PM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:
Firamas wrote:
Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =)

Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp SMILEY   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.

I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level SMILEY

I can't figure out why, if he doesn't care about it, he can't just ignore it?  Does he pvp well and gets a title incidentaly, and then doesn't want to get chased/ganked by people who want that fame?  What's the source problem for this request?

If you don't want fame, go lose it.. it's EASY to do.  There are plenty of players that will help you get to hunter, and then you can just jump various bot groups constantly to lose the rest of that fame.

No coding even needed.

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Old 05-23-2007, 01:15 AM   #43
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Bozidar wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp SMILEY   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.

I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level SMILEY

I can't figure out why, if he doesn't care about it, he can't just ignore it?  Does he pvp well and gets a title incidentaly, and then doesn't want to get chased/ganked by people who want that fame?  What's the source problem for this request?

If you don't want fame, go lose it.. it's EASY to do.  There are plenty of players that will help you get to hunter, and then you can just jump various bot groups constantly to lose the rest of that fame.

No coding even needed.

It's not only a matter of me (and others) not wanting a title, it's the fact that we don't want to continue to feed the problem regarding those who do PvP primarily for titles.  Those kinds of players quite often resort to underhanded, cheesy, or incredibly annoying tactics to secure their shiny title, and this comes at the exclusion of what many of us consider to be "good PvP".  Cloud camping, cloud hopping, carpet bugging, zone hopping, out of group high-title baiting near zone/cloud points, chasing someone for fifteen minutes across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =) Look, I'm not saying that we will instantly get rid of all the negative aspects of PvP if we give people the options to reset their fame to 0.  I'm not that naieve.  I do firmly believe though (and this is based on a year of experience PvPing) that most of the problems with the way the PvP dynamic plays out right now are rooted in the title/fame system.  I want an environment where I can expect a reasonable chance of finding some good group vs group or 1v1 PvP out in the wild.  Not sitting next to a dock, zoneline, or cloud.  Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war. Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic will improve. And then maybe we won't have this feeling anymore, this feeling that we're on a downward slope and looking at a dead PvP server 6-12 months from now.  I'd like to think we can create an environment that'll be supported and enjoyed by a majority of the playerbase for years to come.
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:05 AM   #44
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Firamas wrote:
Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic will improve.

I disagree with your assessment.  People will find another thing to focus on and /flex about.  It will be kill streaks, K vs D ratio, or screen prints of them corpse humping people in a mosiac made to look like William Shatner.

The same people who pull lame [Removed for Content] tactics for the sake of titles will find another reason to be lame cheap no-skill pvpers.

It's human nature..

And i don't feel any downward sprial.. in fact, since coming to naggy, it's been up, and up, and up..

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Old 05-23-2007, 11:21 AM   #45
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Firamas wrote:

chasing someone for fifteen minutes across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =) ...

Not sitting next to a dock, zoneline, or cloud.  Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war. ... Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic will improve.

Your giving into them by running from them.  All you have to do is stand your groud and beat them a few times then the will be scared of losing fame from you and you will never have to deal with them again.  Your on a PvP server so dont run =D

On the second thing quoted above.  Dont fight at zonelines, clouds, and docks :)  Trust me, if there is no pvp there they will leave.  Another thing is fighting at zoneline will be less of a problem with GU35 coming out today.  People get literally thrown 10 meters back from a zone line if they are engaged in PvP :)

On the 3rd item above.  Its not worth it now.  It so easy just to avoid those locations.  If you want PvP avoid KoS or only fight on the larger areas like the main island of each zone.  That way you have plenty of room to kill them before they could reach the could.

Seems like most of the things you have concerns about are because you have the wrong mindset in looking for PvP.  There is plenty of quality PvP out there your just looking in the wrong places :) 

Took me a while to realize how useless titles really are.  If in your mind you really dont care about them and ignore them then the PvP experience really does get better :)  We dont need to take devs off of creating new content or fixing bugs to fix something that really doesn't even matter.

edited to correct a spelling error =D

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Old 05-23-2007, 11:31 AM   #46
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Firamas wrote:

Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war.

Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.

Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.

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Old 05-23-2007, 11:35 AM   #47
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[email protected] wrote:
Firamas wrote:

chasing someone for fifteen minutes across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =)

Your giving into them by running from them.  All you have to do is stand your groud and beat them a few times then the will be scared of losing fame from you and you will never have to deal with them again.  Your on a PvP server so dont run =D

uhhh.. .he didn't say he was running from people, i don't think.  I'm pretty sure he meant chasing his prey..
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Old 05-23-2007, 12:33 PM   #48
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Deancs wrote:

Ok I dont think you thought this one through yourselves. If this system is implemented it will be exploited to the fullest, and very easily I might add. Just think about it for a minute.

I have a better solution that I have petitioned SOE to do in other posts.

There is a simple solution that already has the mechanics set in place in the game.

IMPLEMENT MORE FAME/INFAMY LOSS

1) Zoning- The mechanic is already in game that notifies when someone has dishonorably fled. Just tack on some fame loss for this. This little thing would change PVP dramatically.

2) Groups and Raids- If a group or raid attacks a single target or smaller raid then there is no fame from that  target. This would promote more single player pvp and prevent guilds from raiding on single targets and groups. The game mechanic is already in place for pve raids and would just need a little tweaking.

3) Running- Add an fame/infamy loss for people who run from a fight after engaged in combat. This would help the plate wearers in pvp. This game mechanic might be a little hard to set into place, but shouldnt be that difficult to determine who the one that ran is.  The mechanic is somewhat in place, the same mechanic that takes you out of combat.

These three little improvements would increase the pvp experience dramatically. If you take away titles altogether it will cause the majority of pvpers to leave the game. So we expound on what they love to do. Put a little challenge to titles. Then we will really know who the real champions are.

I first wanna say that Become's idea looks like a good one to me.  If people wanna PvP for the sake of PvP, then great.  It's the guys who spend all day zone hopping and exploiting and hiding, only to come out in force when they hear of some green con infamy thats questing in some nearby zone (Many similar annoying situations like this caused by the titles system).

 Also the above suggestions are good ones, but there are certain issues. 

Ever accidetally zoned when fighting near a line by clicking on it by mistake?  I've done it a few times and would be annoyed if that caused me loss.  Also, I feel it is fair to zone (When possible) if a 1 vs 1 fight suddenly becomes a 1 vs 6 fight (seems like this will soon not be possible).

The group or raid fame idea would be very complex I feel, but might work.  Certain exploits would become apparent, such as people just dropping group and regrouping according to the size of the opposition (I.e. you see 2 opponents, you disband your group of 6 into 3 groups of 2 and still whup them).  The problem certainly does need to be addressed, but to be honest the main advantage of an army in war is the ability to successfully field a strong force and manage the logistics of this.  Anyone who can consistently get a strong group out has my envy SMILEY

Running, as it stands, is not a bad thing.  It looks like you are hoping for a situation where any fight you engage in will always be fought to the death, with the stronger group/individual always coming out on top.  I feel the little guy should have a chance of not only attacking, but also of running if it is clear they are outgunned.  If I am questing on my Warden and I get jumped, I want to be able to heal and run away.  I like running, as it is an integral part of any combat situation.  I dont, however, like huge disparities in combat run speed.

Personally, I think that Greenion some time back proposed a more complex yet compelling system for fame and titles.  For example, take the chess ranking system, its a fairly complex calculation and takes many factors into account.

Fame and titles should be based on number of previous kills, the relative infamy of the opponent, the situation (how many people involved in the attack), the relative strengths of each opponent, the classes etc.

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Old 05-23-2007, 12:39 PM   #49
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I know I've had times I've wanted to lose my title. I don't mind losing any one on one fights, heck lots of times I jump into a group of peeps swinging away just to slow there fame farming down. Alas, sometimes it really jerks my frog when I get face stomped by the usual fame farming groups and give them fame.... Or the assasin who pops up on me, slaps me around, gets my fame and then goes and parks himself on the docks until decap is back up....absolutely refusing to come back out for a rematch.

I've heard screams of anger over vent when someone loses a title, fame, etc. The title situation could use some tweaks, but I have no good suggestions on how to do so. Myself, I don't care about my title...I do however hate giving fame to the farmers.

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Old 05-23-2007, 05:41 PM   #50
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I just made a thread about this.. didnt see this thread.

Totally need a /reset title command, imo.

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Old 05-23-2007, 10:44 PM   #51
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[email protected] wrote:

Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.

Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.

These two paragraphs seem kind of contradictory.  In the first, you offer up the point that people fight (or run) for other reasons than titles.  In the second, you insinuate that the removal of titles would take away all penalties for dying.  Not sure what your overall message is here. I honestly don't see how PvP would move towards "a mindless game of pushing buttons" just because one or more of the people involved didn't have a little word in front of their character's name... can you provide some more insight as to why you think this is the case?  The "sense of danger" doesn't (or shouldn't) come from the fact that the little word in front of your name might change if you get killed; it's quite simply the fact that you can be killed by another player.  I've played plenty of PVE as well, believe me, just knowing that you can be hunted is enough to completely change the dynamic.  This title-centric mindset/playstyle is precisely what I want to the ability to option out of. People run for all kinds of reasons.  I understand that.  I'm not blind to the reality of this game.  However, if you (or anyone) can sit there and honestly tell me that titles do more good than harm for the PvP dynamic, then I will kindly ask you to support that by actually analyzing the "other half" of the argument and consider the totality of damage that fame-hungry groups really inflict. In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful.
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Old 05-24-2007, 03:41 AM   #52
Norrsken

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Firamas wrote:
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Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.

Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.

In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful.
I like it, means I can get masters from selling my stupid title to people that havent got the skill to get one themselves. SMILEY
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Old 05-25-2007, 12:50 AM   #53
Firam

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[email protected] wrote:
Firamas wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.

Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.

In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful.
I like it, means I can get masters from selling my stupid title to people that havent got the skill to get one themselves. SMILEY
And I submit that this is at the heart of the problem!  People are willing to pay large amounts of platinum to cheat their way to a title that doesn't affect their killing potential at all.  These same people are not going to contribute well to what I would consider a "healthy" PvP dynamic when they do go out to fight for real.
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