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Old 11-10-2016, 01:02 AM   #1
Daalilama

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As the title imples, non-shaman healers have been expecting something, anything in the way of adjustments either to their abilities/spells/buffs/heals/etc or to mechanics to address the ever increasing disparity when compared to shaman. Since the introduction of the resolve mechanic, which btw was never open tested (unless you believe selective in secret testing by a chosen few is open) we were all asked to heal a mechanic that 99.9% of the community never had a chance to kick the tires on let alone bring all our concerns to bear upon it. If it was only the resolve mechanic (which penalizes raid forces that can not fully field out a full 24 man raid...nice gatekeeping mechanic btw) most healers would probably would try and adapt.

However, Resolve is by no means the only unaddressed issue, namely the shaman vs non shaman schism created by the ability for shaman to essentially solo heal groups in raid content as their wards jacked by overinflated potency gear that came with Zek (I think ya over did it with the potency on the zek/mara gear but I digress). Pretty much all heals outside of wards was essentially wasted heals as the ever increasing ward sizes would compensate. Again, However, you attempted to address this growing issue with yet another wait for it...super secret selective testing mechanic again...and you gave birth to Bleedthrough...which is tbh unwardable damage by another name and we all remember past efforts with unwardable damage and how much they went over with the community. It was intended to "balance" out heals among non-shaman however it doesnt quite work out that way and you know it. The non shaman community asked for this issue to be addressed with some fixes...but what did we get?

2 abilities (1 per cleric) to reduce a nominal amount of bleedthrough on a target or targets and thats it....did you forget that channelers and druids were also among the non shaman heals?


I mean not to bust your bubble but will we see a meaningful and concerted effort to address these concerns prior to launch or will the plethera of class issues up to and including bleedthrough be delayed to yet another unnamed date because as of now we really aint seeing much to give us hope? After all its not like the healer community didnt provide a mountain of data and ideas on addressing class issues with the last mega class feedback threads that look more and more to be doing nothing but sitting in someones in box gathering dust.
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Old 11-10-2016, 06:04 AM   #2
Duffy

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To be honest, what clerics got isn't class balance either. While this may (or may not) save them spots in a raiding situation, it doesn't address the issue that right now non shaman are not as viable as solo healers than shaman.

I would've liked THAT to be balanced. Give healer the chance to HEAL back again! It's now sitting at 100% or dead and I would very much like to have that addressed. And it is creepy that no developer seems to openly acknowledge that this is a frustrating problem for the other 5 healer we have out of the 7.
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Old 11-10-2016, 06:31 AM   #3
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There is no such thing as a solo healer any more. While you may see more heals per second from a shamans parse, they are by no more effective than any of the other healers. Not any more.

For Kunark Ascendng is about pairs of healers. Meaning, what pairs well for "X" group. The mobs hit hard and FAST. Shamans can't keep up on the wards. Matter of fact, I can't even find enough time to cast an ascension spell on my Defiler. So I don't feel there is as big a gap as you guys are suggesting. They have just created a dependency on one another.
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Old 11-10-2016, 07:25 AM   #4
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I would be balanced for duo healing, if a druid and a cleric could duo heal the same encounter than a shaman and any others.
But will people still get oneshot if they have a druid and cleric?
Can't wait to see how it is balanced by myself, as i have a templar, inquisitor and defiler.
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Old 11-10-2016, 10:27 AM   #5
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I didn't messed around with the heroic dungeons on beta, so.. oh. Long long years ago people would invite two healer for groups on a regular basis and if that really is their intent again, then I don't know how to feel about that. It has definitely something nostalgic attached to it.
I was under the impression that they'd backpaddle on the amount what goes through wards, because they overdid it in beta.
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Old 11-10-2016, 11:15 AM   #6
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Heroic shouldn't really come into discussion as all heroics are intended to be solo healed by any class (Except maybe HM zone).

However this post is mainly about balance in raiding, where most balance issues occur.

I agree with the OP that Druids/Clerics need something more to deal with 1 shots to avoid Shaman dominance again this expac. My suggestions would be along the lines of the following;
  • Add an effect to Druid/Cleric group buffs along lines of "If only Priest in group, increase group members Health by 50%"
  • Add a DR to Tortoise Shell and Blade Dance (Make it not effect fighters)
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Old 11-10-2016, 03:44 PM   #7
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I agree. And yes, your likelihood of survival in KA raids with a cleric and druid is very low. Mobs hit for 6+ mil per hit. They come in really fast too. You're throwing 10 mil heals per second down range and it's still not enough. Even from a shamans perspective, there is no fun in healing anymore. It's right on par with washing the dishes or picking up dog poo. There is nothing but ward, heal, ward, heal. There's no time for dps. Heaven forbid you drop something on the floor and have to look away from the screen for a second. If you do it's a wipe.

It would be nice to see both druids and clerics get an increase in outbound heals per second. And something new to help mitigate incoming spike damage. It would also be nice to see shaman ward cast times reduced by at least 50%. Keep the recast times the same but allow them to use Ascension spells, debuffs and general dps abilities.
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Old 11-10-2016, 04:27 PM   #8
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This problem was adressed many times, in short, i will repeat my analysis and suggestions here:

The relation of raw character power (mainly potency) to character health to enemy damage is broken since Zek. The damage as well as the raw power was increased drastically, character health not. The simple solution would be to drastically increase hitpoints proportional to raw power/enemy damage. A buff like Errrorr Stated would also be an idea if health increase is not an option, e.g. due to datatype problems - maybe then with a damage reduction to non-tanks instead of additional health.

But: Not everything is bad for KA! I tested all KA group instances, the hardest ones even without a beta buff and predominantly with old equipment. Nearly everything was doable and oneshots (yes, i had a shaman with me, but i checked the ACT for detailled information) we received were rare and usually caused by script fails (or pending issues). In addition i participated in guided beta raids from T1 to T4. Oneshots were not our main problems here, most stronger nameds were hard for us due to missing DPS!

And do not forget the following: The stamina of a well equipped raider can be drastically increased in KA! They increased the Stamina of Platin Infusion as well as Physical Layer Infusion! So its absolutely doable to get ~+1000 Stamina per Item!

Summing up, this issue will be reduced as far as i can predict it, but will still be present. It will be far easier for a shaman to solo heal unless the above mentioned relation is adjusted a bit more.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:28 AM   #9
Daalilama

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The main issue is 2 non shaman heals vs a shaman with a tandem heal is fast becoming a thing of the past...
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Old 11-11-2016, 06:12 AM   #10
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Yeah, it is still shaman or go home.. bleed-through just means shaman need another healer to pick up the trash behind them... Frown
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:55 AM   #11
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In my opinion, bleedthrough just means that shamans will be more powerful and is the worst idea to adress this balancing issue ^^

If the bleedthrough is 100% and instantly kills, no healer can do something (okay, maybe damage reduction/channeler can. But seriously, who plays channeler? ;P). If the hits do not kill instantly, bleedthrough just means that the wards can be maintained longer without recasting since they break down slower and the shaman itself can use his direct heals more effectively. So with my twink defiler, i would be absolutely happy about every single bit of bleedthrough as long as it does not directly kills my group!

And in addition, in my first post in this thread i forgot about the incerased HP by the deity points, which also will reduce the balancing issue due to more hit points Wink
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:03 PM   #12
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That's not how it works. Example for Defiler...

Mob (single target) throws 25 mil down range at the group.

Carrion Warding absorbs 14 mil. Of which 7 mil bleeds through.

Soul Shackle is now activated and absorbs 4 mil. With 2 mil bleeding through.

Ward > bleedthrough > ward > bleedthrough. You get the point.

Now all your wards are down. This process took 3 seconds. Now incorporate adds, detriments, etc. and you start to get a picture of how the shaman cannot cast his/her wards fast enough. Without another healer the group is dead. The wards cannot regenerate fast enough so the shaman is forced to use their single target and group heals between ward casting. There is absolutely no time for any kind of debuffing, dps or ascension spells. Cast that 3 second ascension spell on a fast incoming dps fight (adds and dets) and it's a wipe. They can only be cast at the most opportune time.

Due to shamans AA investments into their primary group wards you will see a substantial increase in heals per second in Kunark Ascending. But it's an illusion. The parse is not telling the whole story. Those are just heal procs and do absolutely nothing when a large damage ability lands on the group.
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:35 PM   #13
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Okay, maybe i should have investigated more . . . so much to do in the limited amount of time Wink Anyways, thanks for clarifying, i will observe this again.

But does such a system make any sense? Would'nt it be more meaningful to just reduce the base amount of wards by a certain percentage instead of implementing a bleedthrough mechanic? And if thats because of the different percentages . . . this results in easy fights which are far too easy and harder fights becoming really tough.

However, in practice, i had no problems maintaining wards with my defiler with the old equipment for T1-T3 raids in KA. Often the group was damaged and the wards were still up (not only the regenerating ones).
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:54 PM   #14
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No problem. In my above example, Carrion Warding was hit for 14 mil with 7 mil bleed through. The 14 mil is what's being retracted from the ward and must be regenerated or recast. The bleedthrough is intended to hit the group so cleric and druids are viable. I understand it. I don't like it, but I get it. I could come up with at least a dozen better ways of balancing leather, chain and plate healers.

Most of my time (while paying attention to ACT) on beta was raiding. I did all the solo stuff too. But I only did a few groups. So most of my feedback in regards to this topic is based off raids where a druid was present. In the group zones we were short handed and there could have been other mechanics at play. So I'll try to avoid heroic comments for now.

It should also be noted that crit chance may play a vital role in the ability to effect bleeedthrough. If the ward crits, there is 0% bleedthrough. It's going to have to be an insanely high number of crit chance to rely on this (maybe 5k?). At that point the shaman would be where they were before the bleedthrough change.
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:08 PM   #15
Errrorr

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If your ward blocks 7 mil of the damage, only 7mil will drop off your ward. Not 14mil.
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Old 11-11-2016, 03:15 PM   #16
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That's incorrect. In this 1 second snippet of a parse I give two examples.

Example #1 (above the red line) Demonstrates how a group ward is applied to every member of the group. The ward is applied, bleedhtrough is deducted and the ward is dropped. Each bleedthrough reduces the damage by 50%. Then the next group ward (the line below it on the parse) picks up the bleedthrough total and then deducts another 50%. And so on. The final amount after deductions is what hits the player.

Example #2 (below the red line) Demonstrates what happens when a couple wards expire. In this case Senneth's Shroud of Armor and Carrion Warding exhausted their total ward amount. It applies to each player differently based on mitigation, resists and potency value of the ward before it expired.

This is where druids and clerics step in. If that amount is greater than their healing potential, it results in a death of that player. It's in example #2 that we need to work together. The wards are dropping so fast without regeneration that we have no choice but to recast the ward. Which is ofcoarse on a lengthy recast timer.

[IMG]
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Old 11-11-2016, 03:37 PM   #17
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That screenshot looks to me like Carrion Warding absorbed 5369199 damage, and the subsequent 5369199 damage that bled through killed him.

Otherwise for some reason your last ward had 0 Bleedthrough from the mob.

There is nothing in that screenshot to show that your ward (Carrion Warding) expired at all. It's just the bleedthrough hit killed the tank.
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Old 11-11-2016, 03:44 PM   #18
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Whenever Carrion Warding hits its maximum ward value it just drops. It displays the final value followed by gray text that says "Players Carrion Warding fades away". It doesn't bleed through. As far as I know it's the only one that doesn't bleed through like that.

Sorry guys. I was trying to make an argument for clerics and druids and got a little side tracked.
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:00 PM   #19
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I still believe my original comment that the ward absorbed the 50% as normal, and the rest of damage killed the player. Nothing in that screenshot backs up your earlier statement that if the ward absorbs 7mil it consumes 14mil of ward.

In your screenshot above, there just wasn't enough warding on the player to reduce the damage enough to survive taking into account 50% Bleedthrough.

Example 1 -
AoE Lands for 1000 damage.
Ward A lands on group member for 2000 absorbs 500, 500 Bleeds through. 1500 of ward remains up for next hit.
Ward B lands on group member for 200 absorbs 100, 400 Bleeds Through. 100 of ward remains up for next hit.
400 final damage hits target and kills them.

Example 2 -
AoE Lands for 1000 damage.
Ward A lands on group member for 2000 absorbs 500, 500 Bleeds through. 1500 of ward remains up for next hit.
Ward Bl ands on group member for 200 absorbs 100, 400 Bleeds Through. 100 of ward remains up for next hit.
400 final damage hits target and they survive and get healed.

AoE 2 Lands for 1000 damage.
Ward A absorbs 500, 500 Bleeds through. 1000 of ward remains up for next hit.
Ward B absorbs 100, 400 Bleeds Through. Ward Expires.
400 final damage hits target.
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:11 PM   #20
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Carrion Warding (Defiler) and Umbral Warding (Mystic) do not bleed through. Ever.

Each ward reduces it's value by the first number coming in.

Ward 1. Incoming amount from mob, up to the maximum protection value of the first ward that's hit. Half of that value is sent to ward 2. If it exceeds the maximum value the entire excess is sent to ward 2.
Ward 2. Wards up to the max protection value of the ward. Half (or more if it exceeds the max ward value amount) of this value is sent to ward 3.
Ward 3. Wards up to the max protection value of the ward. Half (or more if it exceeds the max ward value amount) of this value is sent to ward 4.
Ward 4. 50% of that value.
What's left is damage to player "X" based on his/her mitigation and resists.

Here is an example of the "excess" that gets sent to the next ward in the chain.

[IMG]
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:25 PM   #21
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See above quotes?

If Carrion Warding does not bleed through, then it acts as a normal ward does.
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:29 PM   #22
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Ya, I used a bad example of bleedthrough ward. Sorry. Coffee first, post second.
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Old 11-11-2016, 04:53 PM   #23
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It's not a question of whether or not other shields will soak up the damage once the primary shield fails, it's a question of whether or not the bleed through component will deplete the shield.

Your parses just shows what's already happening on live, which is secondary and tieteary shields picking up whatever isn't obsorbed by the preceding shields. Your proof lack one critical component, a picture of the total ward, and how it's affected when you're hit. In theory, it should play out just as Errorr described.

A more controlled testing enviorenment is required, such as dueling another person using the set damage ability. If the bleed through does reduce the ward, then this a even bigger nerf than we originally thought.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:08 PM   #24
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You guys are reading too much into the shaman and ward thing. The whole point of this thread is to see where non-shaman fit in. With the bleedthrough nerf there is a massive need for both druids and clerics. I was only trying to demonstrate WHY the need is there. It's important for druids and clerics to understand shaman mechanics and realize that the need for them is greater than it was in ToT.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:16 PM   #25
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In ToT there was NO need for non-shaman... and we DO understand that we're needed to pick up after shaman in KA. The issue this thread is bringing up is that it is STILL shaman or go home. It's not '2 healers per group'. It's 'a shaman and a healer to pick up the trash' per group. The hits are so big that without a ward 'in front of' hitpoint pools, people will still get 1-shot, even if they have 2 (non-shaman) healers in their group.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:18 PM   #26
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What Jamisia said.

It's not now "Oooh we could take a druid & Inq for that mage group" or "Lets challenge the fury to solo heal", it's "Ok 4 shammies, now 4 of any other healers to be their assistants"

Earlier suggestions in this thread could help deal with this.
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Old 11-11-2016, 05:28 PM   #27
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There's a difference between single target tanks and AOE tanks. So what? There's a difference between dirge and a troub. There's a difference between coercers and illusionists? We each have a role to play. Welcome to what the rest of the classes have been doing since 2004. The only healer exclusion is wards and no wards. But your dps is substantially higher without wards. I've never once seen a post about shaman complaining that they can't catch druids on the parse.

I wish you guys could still solo heal a group. I wish I could too. Welcome to EQ2. Class dependency is what makes this game better than the rest!

Heaven forbid you were a swashbuckler or paladin. And remember when wardens were flavor of the month? Shamans were useless. Remember when inquisitors were flavor of the month? Shadowknights? Assassins? Wizards? Oh wait, they'll always be flavor of the month. We all have alts that have rotated these needed classes. There is no flavor of the month for healers this expac. It is what it is. We have to do what we have to do to make it work. And we can only do that by working together. It'll be fine. Have a little faith in the dev team.
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:10 PM   #28
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Zues why are you dancing around the main point...which is based upon the current mechanics with bleedthrough on Beta....raids will need to have 8 heals 4 being shaman...if a group does not have a shaman in it that quite frankly they are going to get rickrolled hard....

The debate was never how much of your ward would be used up or if the damage would be reduced further from further wards...it's primarily about a group's survivability without a shaman even with a tandem that should be the biggest and only concern here.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:35 PM   #29
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Faith in the dev team would be there if this was something that crept up this beta however, myself and others have been shining a light upon this very issue for months....and all we get is radio silence.
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Old 11-11-2016, 10:47 PM   #30
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My guild made it through most of ToT without "having" to have shaman in each group. The only fight where it was painstakingly obvious that we needed it was fluttering wing and resolve checks were low enough alts would manage. We killed everything besides kraletus and contested shroom. It wasn't easy and it meant finding some AA's for individual raiders to help compensate. I do hope that this xpac doesn't change that. I was trying to recruit a shaman ALL this xpac. Seriously..it just wasn't happening. I don't expect that to change.

I do wonder why channelers who are supposed to be at the forefront of intercepting damage aren't able to fill in for the shaman role at this point. And I can see why if 2 healers are required this xpac folks would be pretty upset why one absolutely has to be shaman. However not having seen the raid content myself I'll wait till I do to comment on the fact that 4 shaman are "needed". Our guild worked around that need for an entire expac and I'm thinking we'll have to do it again.
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