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Old 09-13-2012, 05:56 PM   #31
razu

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SOE gives players pvp hot zones- players farm alts instead

Players kill towers and call out as fast as possible to avoid pvp. I guess SOE made them hit their call to guild hall instead of engaging pvp?

I don't see that all of the problems are with SOE, I see the problem with a player base that has obviously changed since 2006. Saying that it's all Sonys fault and not the players who CHOOSE to take actions other than PVP is very one sided. 

Most negative changes that have been made to PVP is because of the PLAYER POPULATION crying untill SOE caves in and changes it to appeal to the masses. 

Removal of T2 PVP. Why did that get taken out of the game? Oh yeah, because PLAYERS cried and cried untill it was removed. 

I stand by my statement. It is the player base where the true problem lies. If people really wanted to pvp, they would, instead of farming alts and avoiding open world pvp every chance they get. When the pvp hot zones first came out, I personally thought it was going to bring out some open world pvp, instead it brought out a bunch of cheaters who farm alts to get gear and STILL don't attempt to fight other players. 

If BGs were removed from the server, people would leave the server, because as it stands now this PLAYER BASE for the most part does not truly want pvp. This is evident from the actions that PLAYERS take. Alright, I'll rephrase that a little bit, everyone would leave except the true pvpers, which would just be a handful of us, then they would shut the server down from lack of population. 

IF removing BGs would really stimulate pvp then I am all for it, but I honestly do not see that being a fix, because like I said before, the player base is the problem. Nobody makes anyone que up for BGs, that is a choice, when killing ONE person solo gives 25 tokens, 32 in a pvp hot zone. Thank you SOE for attempting to revive open world pvp, it's not your fault that the PLAYER BASE is horrible and chose to farm alts instead. Fix alt farming before BGS are even looked at.  

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Old 09-13-2012, 09:10 PM   #32
Seliri

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razu wrote:

SOE gives players pvp hot zones- players farm alts instead

Players kill towers and call out as fast as possible to avoid pvp. I guess SOE made them hit their call to guild hall instead of engaging pvp?

I don't see that all of the problems are with SOE, I see the problem with a player base that has obviously changed since 2006. Saying that it's all Sonys fault and not the players who CHOOSE to take actions other than PVP is very one sided. 

Most negative changes that have been made to PVP is because of the PLAYER POPULATION crying untill SOE caves in and changes it to appeal to the masses. 

Removal of T2 PVP. Why did that get taken out of the game? Oh yeah, because PLAYERS cried and cried untill it was removed. 

I stand by my statement. It is the player base where the true problem lies. If people really wanted to pvp, they would, instead of farming alts and avoiding open world pvp every chance they get. When the pvp hot zones first came out, I personally thought it was going to bring out some open world pvp, instead it brought out a bunch of cheaters who farm alts to get gear and STILL don't attempt to fight other players. 

If BGs were removed from the server, people would leave the server, because as it stands now this PLAYER BASE for the most part does not truly want pvp. This is evident from the actions that PLAYERS take. Alright, I'll rephrase that a little bit, everyone would leave except the true pvpers, which would just be a handful of us, then they would shut the server down from lack of population. 

IF removing BGs would really stimulate pvp then I am all for it, but I honestly do not see that being a fix, because like I said before, the player base is the problem. Nobody makes anyone que up for BGs, that is a choice, when killing ONE person solo gives 25 tokens, 32 in a pvp hot zone. Thank you SOE for attempting to revive open world pvp, it's not your fault that the PLAYER BASE is horrible and chose to farm alts instead. Fix alt farming before BGS are even looked at.

Uhm, the fact remains that solo PvP isn't necessarily the most rewarding given flawed PvE/PvP gear integration & glaring class imbalances with FOTM status.

SOE has NOT adequately promoted world PvP because the GUARANTEE FOR EASY TOKENS is easymode, instant battlegrounds & getting flagged at warfields.

Honestly I don't see the justification for being such an oblivious fanboy in this regard, because the facts & the details are just absolutely against you.

Lol @ ACTING LIKE PvP hot zones were ever going to be the remedy to anything when tokens are divided so drastically when groups engage.

Overland PvP is ambiguous, difficult, demanding of coordination, & the reward isn't guaranteed.

The problem is that GUARANTEED easymode options detract from true dedication to organizing a successful hunt.

You seem to have a problem with the "risk of losing players" if battlegrounds are neutered, when in reality, this isn't an issue.

This is a PvP server, & the community/health of overland PvP takes precedence.

There's honestly no grounds for this pessimism aside from minor vocal posters on the forums.

Overland PvP was rampant & boisterous in the past, & to doubt optimistic hope for its return when bloccades to it are abolished has no place in consciousness.

Sure, run a server vote on the issue, though I doubt SOE "devs/visionaries" would be willing to phrase questions in a fair manner or even run the poll, regardless, i.e. "Considering that many feel a PvP server primarily identifies with a community actively overland PvPing, CHECK which ruleset mods you would approve of..."

And even if some redactions/inclusions weren't supported by the community, they'd need to go forward anyways, because all of the complications I've addressed detract from engagement & the niche of players who pursue PvP. /emphatic_nod

Though I'd agree other ruleset changes are needed before battlegrounds are castrated (on only Tues/Wed, for instance), as PrometheusAfire noted...

1.) NO HEIRLOOM PVP TOKENS (again, reduces content longevity, promotes easymode alt farming [LVL 10s, trade, etc, dumb, etc, blah] -- who cares if correcting this is a 3rd or 4th flip flop, IT'S WRONG, & whoever approved it must confess that)

2.) classic mount runspeeds

3.) leapers/gliders/fliers on Tues/Wed only (or always allowed if altitude capped & FINE TESTING ABSOLUTELY equates their speed to classic ground mount runspeeds -- portals on the ground leading to the higher platform of the Plane of War would negate altitude needs -- altitude caps in the Great Divide could be lifted on Tues/Wed for the flying mount quest)

3a.) pvp should be allowed while flying/gliding/leaping if speed adjustments go forward

4.) crowd control/cures being unnerfed

5.) 30 sec immunity when done zoning/evacuating

6.) no Toughness on lowbie gear

7.) level locking starting at T2

8.) REMOVE city PvP rules in T2 contested zones

9.) classic PvP rank system (with an eventual seasonal leaderboard/reward system w/ GMs investigating abuse/farming)

9a.) the +/- 1 rank fame range ensured casuals would progress through PvP ranks

9b.) the +/-1 rank fame range ensured deep PvP rank progression would actually be a DIFFICULT HUNT

9c.) the +/-1 rank fame range lets players engage without pressure of fame loss at times, which is a staple for engaging without inhibition, a common player desire

10.) ERASE all simplified global travel

10a.) no guild druid/spire/wizard portals or bells

10b.) no quest/zone rewards providing travel to a zone or instance

10c.) no immunity on Antonican/Commonlands/Nektulos docks

10d.) place the otters leading to the Great Divide on a newly created set of Sinking Sands docks, at least 40 sec travel from the normal docks at the classic ground mount runspeed cap.

10e.) no portal from the Great Divide to the Eastern Wastes

10f.) erase guild strategist amenity to replace with track lock of 3 overland targets contested for 3+ minutes

10g.) include forgotten additions as needed, etc...

11.) no mercenaries (auto-poof when engaged in PvP)

12.) a return of overland PvP writ givers [no posters] ONLY

13.) the removal of warfields or giving a flag doubling tokens during their CONSTANT duration AND changing victor rewards to NOT be PvP tokens, but durational flags valuable to all playstyles

14.) entering the dungeon finder/dungeon creator/house directory must take 30 seconds once the queue is approved

15a.) free transfers to Nagafen from the FREEPORT server for TWO WEEKS (no PvP offering was given when F2P 1st launched

15b.) cut in half transfer cost from all servers TO Nagafen

16.) have battlegrounds return you to the zone you were in, & not the battlegrounds hub

17.) battlegrounds tier segments should at least be in blocks of 2 (20-39, 40-59, 60-79, 80-91, 92 [then 92-95])

17a.) it's obvious that disparity in spells/CAs, gear, mythical, & AAs cant be compensated for despite any "balancing" algorithms

18.) battlegrounds on Tues/Wed only

19.) hire me as the janitor closet apprentice gnome developer

I for one, probably won't play EQ2 unless the PvE/PvP integration & damage balance mechanics are adequately revised, & that will also probably never happen.

Seliri wrote:

1.) potency has a higher cap than crit bonus

2.) crit bonus' cap is too low

3.) multi-attack/flurry are capped too low

4.) pve/raid gear didnt get reduced "in pvp" stats to make it equal to old DoV PvP gear (meaning PvEing is the fastest way to PvP competency -- if PvEers fear PvP gear will be too strong compared to PvE gear, then just make PvP gear weaker in its normal state, & stronger in its "In PvP" state)

5.) lethality/toughness are worthless

The "devs/visionaries" seem to have hang-ups about these vital compromises though, as I can't really see them ever having been avid PvPers...

Also, I've modified an older list of urgencies I made, separate from what I see as the simpler list above...

Seliri wrote:

Top 6 "Eventual" to do for EQ2 PvP... :

1.) Choice of rewards per tier for 1st-4th placement in the PvP rank scheme, every 2 months...

1a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN (i.e. highest LVL 44 Overlord unlocks T5 earrings), unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature

2.) Choice of rewards, per tier, for 1st-4th placement in Battlegrounds, every 2 months...

2a.) Best item in 1-2 slots, SPECIFIC TO THE TIER YOUR CHAMPION IS IN, unlocked on all characters, PLUS 1 or more other choices from the seasonal rewards list in the 45 PoAfEP in my signature

3.) Difficult, contested x4/x3/x2 raids dropping valuable loot/components...

4.) Redo objectives in PQs/WFs to become unique, scene/task-based, stages of objectives covering a large swathe of an overland zone in public quests & warfields, with sustained rewards/buffs, timer resets or reducers, or rare recipes/trinkets/components, etc...

5.) Multi-region, rare-trinket drops (from Sentinel's Fate instances made contested, for example) & chances at a ultra rare Fabled or Mythical crafted products from these collective trinkets, promoting contested PvP abroad in various settings, without the zerg...

6.) Kills have a chance to drop the player's head on a plaque as a house item (full armor/skin/preferred non-SOGA model type/particle effects preserved).

So 29-30 revised points total! n_n

If you think "SOE listens to the players", the fact is that this "just listening to players" entirely irrelevant because, A, "Do they listen to the actual avid PvPers with experience?", & B, "Do they "listen" in a haphazard manner, wherein they add their own additions or approve their own omissions to the suggestions of experienced players?"

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Old 09-14-2012, 01:50 AM   #33
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Seliri wrote:

crazyeyes321 wrote:

Im not entirely sure that at this point, even if soe GAVE everyone the best pvp gear and max lvl/aas, that people would leave the bgs and go out and fight each other.

The biggest problem I see is the massive amounts of rediculous skill/stat/proc bloating that the game has now.  Fights really aren't that fun anymore, nor are they really strategic.  This problem can only get worse though as the game progresses, unless they come out with an expansion that puts people in an alternate reality naked and the cycle begins anew.

...? there should never be a premise of just giving everyone gear & i dunno why you felt that was a relevant comment

...gear is usually the prime incentive for engagement, especially with the pvp rank system again being a failure, on top of no seasonal pvp rank leaderboards/rewards & the like.

there isn't much stat bloating with the caps as they are aside from STA/HP

& i agree fights take less skill & are less fun with more run & gun brought about by continued, unwarranted nerfs to crowd control/utility.

My point was that originally, it was BGs were to help people gear up faster so they could open world pvp.  However, that really is not the case.  People have gotten gear, but they still dont leave the BGs or do open world pvp beyond the brief warfield.

Should people be given gear?  No, but at this point would it really change anything?  Pvp should have never been about the gear to begin with.  Titles should never have been implemented, as if you were good your name would have been known regardless of some silly title.  Pvp should have stayed about bragging rights and the thrill of trying to out manuever the other team.

So again, even if everyone had all the gear they could ever get, people would not engage in open pvp anymore beyond the zerg mentality.

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Old 09-14-2012, 04:45 AM   #34
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crazyeyes321 wrote:

Seliri wrote:

crazyeyes321 wrote:

Im not entirely sure that at this point, even if soe GAVE everyone the best pvp gear and max lvl/aas, that people would leave the bgs and go out and fight each other.

The biggest problem I see is the massive amounts of rediculous skill/stat/proc bloating that the game has now.  Fights really aren't that fun anymore, nor are they really strategic.  This problem can only get worse though as the game progresses, unless they come out with an expansion that puts people in an alternate reality naked and the cycle begins anew.

...? there should never be a premise of just giving everyone gear & i dunno why you felt that was a relevant comment

...gear is usually the prime incentive for engagement, especially with the pvp rank system again being a failure, on top of no seasonal pvp rank leaderboards/rewards & the like.

there isn't much stat bloating with the caps as they are aside from STA/HP

& i agree fights take less skill & are less fun with more run & gun brought about by continued, unwarranted nerfs to crowd control/utility.

My point was that originally, it was BGs were to help people gear up faster so they could open world pvp.  However, that really is not the case.  People have gotten gear, but they still dont leave the BGs or do open world pvp beyond the brief warfield.

Should people be given gear?  No, but at this point would it really change anything?  Pvp should have never been about the gear to begin with.  Titles should never have been implemented, as if you were good your name would have been known regardless of some silly title.  Pvp should have stayed about bragging rights and the thrill of trying to out manuever the other team.

So again, even if everyone had all the gear they could ever get, people would not engage in open pvp anymore beyond the zerg mentality.

i don't think battlegrounds served the purpose of "gearing up faster so Nagafenians could engage in overland PvP", but to offer PvEers PvP-lite.

battlegrounds/warfields (in their current state) still serve as the easymode guarantee which nullifies the difficulty of coordinating a successful overland hunt.

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Old 09-14-2012, 05:48 PM   #35
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razu wrote:

SOE gives players pvp hot zones- players farm alts instead

Players kill towers and call out as fast as possible to avoid pvp. I guess SOE made them hit their call to guild hall instead of engaging pvp?

I don't see that all of the problems are with SOE, I see the problem with a player base that has obviously changed since 2006. Saying that it's all Sonys fault and not the players who CHOOSE to take actions other than PVP is very one sided. 

Most negative changes that have been made to PVP is because of the PLAYER POPULATION crying untill SOE caves in and changes it to appeal to the masses. 

Removal of T2 PVP. Why did that get taken out of the game? Oh yeah, because PLAYERS cried and cried untill it was removed. 

I stand by my statement. It is the player base where the true problem lies. If people really wanted to pvp, they would, instead of farming alts and avoiding open world pvp every chance they get. When the pvp hot zones first came out, I personally thought it was going to bring out some open world pvp, instead it brought out a bunch of cheaters who farm alts to get gear and STILL don't attempt to fight other players. 

If BGs were removed from the server, people would leave the server, because as it stands now this PLAYER BASE for the most part does not truly want pvp. This is evident from the actions that PLAYERS take. Alright, I'll rephrase that a little bit, everyone would leave except the true pvpers, which would just be a handful of us, then they would shut the server down from lack of population. 

IF removing BGs would really stimulate pvp then I am all for it, but I honestly do not see that being a fix, because like I said before, the player base is the problem. Nobody makes anyone que up for BGs, that is a choice, when killing ONE person solo gives 25 tokens, 32 in a pvp hot zone. Thank you SOE for attempting to revive open world pvp, it's not your fault that the PLAYER BASE is horrible and chose to farm alts instead. Fix alt farming before BGS are even looked at.  

I really don't care about alt farming. I'm playing to have fun. If others want to waste their life alt farming so be it.I could do without the dumb comments after being killed tho. I don't need to read little boy johnson's delusions of grandeur.They should never have removed the language barrier.

Yeah I call out when towers fall, and during the time it takes for the towers to fall I avoid pvp because I'm usually running around solo and all I meet is groups. I barely log in anymore anyway.

The adventuring part is non-existant. Items are all the same. Stats and resists consolidating and dumbing down made it uninteresting. Demotivated players, too small player base and with that guilds still fighting each other over power issues is pretty childish and just plain annoying. And then you have to deal with bad players who don't know how to play as a team or use proper adorns or are inexperienced when it comes to tactics. It all just makes me queue for BGs, get the dailies done and log out because it's a waste of time and I'm getting more enjoyment out of doing other things.

Sometimes tho I'm really loaded and then PvP is great to vent.

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Old 09-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #36
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What I fear most (relative to EverQuest), if the LORD shall ever let it see the light of day, is how well-fielded the PvP vision & development is for EverQuest Next... .__.

Dat'd be a shame if they had these community organizers type all these words about being revolutionary, & then weren't...

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Old 09-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #37
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When pve'rs grinded the gear they wanted, the bg will be deserted in a month or 2. Everyone i know do them because of the bad rng raid drops to get that chest/shoulders piece or what ever. So that one will solve it self.

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Old 09-17-2012, 11:12 AM   #38
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Seliri wrote:

Lol @ ACTING LIKE PvP hot zones were ever going to be the remedy to anything when tokens are divided so drastically when groups engage.

That is the way it should be, a raid (of any size) or heck even a full group killing a single player should not all receive full reward. The full pre-set reward should be divided as it currently is. If a group were to receive full rewards for kills regardless of group size then most people would take the easy route as you so clearly state. They would group up or raid.

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Old 09-17-2012, 08:32 PM   #39
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Orthureon wrote:

Seliri wrote:

Lol @ ACTING LIKE PvP hot zones were ever going to be the remedy to anything when tokens are divided so drastically when groups engage.

That is the way it should be, a raid (of any size) or heck even a full group killing a single player should not all receive full reward. The full pre-set reward should be divided as it currently is. If a group were to receive full rewards for kills regardless of group size then most people would take the easy route as you so clearly state. They would group up or raid.

It doesn't matter if you claim they'd "take the easy route" as I so clearly state...

Players already DO group & raid to gank & always will.

The problem is obviously that this only occurs during warfields, because battleground & warfield easymode rewards are the sustained detriment to overland PvP.

Overland PvP nearly always rewarded a full encounter for ganking from TSO to most of AoD.

What doesn't need to be supported are handicaps that jeopardize incentive to engage in contested PvP.

A true remedy would be Sentinel's Fate dungeons made contested, with rare drop trinkets/components required in massive volumes from such contested zones for upgrading PvP gear (with a randomizer, upon final crafting, for chances at moderate-massive augmentations to gear potency - combines could also be required at certain tradeskill stations in these contested dungeons).

People would spread out to avoid conflict, & therein would a hunt arise to prevent foes from equipping themselves.

Rare drop trinkets could also be made to only drop from player foes while in SPECIFIC contested Sentinel's Fate dungeons.

Consider also rare drop components from trash in these zones, as well as named, all being required for PvP gear upgrades.

Anyways, I hope the concepts here are at least being sourced & solely relied upon for EverQuest Next, or another flop for MMO PvP will assuredly be nurtured.

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Old 09-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #40
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I was never a pro BG player.

However I will take a decent fight in BG's over a x2 or better gank of solo players in KP at the WF's. 

I run threw WL, Great Divide, and the SF zones looking for people every now and then and rarely find anyone that will stay and fight.

To fix open world PvP there needs to be balance between the Qey and Freep factions like there was during TSO.  Also less instances.  We keep getting more and more of them and less open world stuff.  If we can fix these two issues it would be a good start and work on other things.  These are the most pressing issues imo though.

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Old 09-18-2012, 11:27 AM   #41
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Battlegrounds were empty for months and the PvP on Nagafen wasn't any better than it is now. Removing BGs would have no effect on open world PvP. The lack of contested PvE objectives is killing PvP, nothing else. Whoever at SoE makes the decision of putting better loot into instances than in the loot tables of contested monsters is killing the PvP on Nagafen.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:25 PM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:

Battlegrounds were empty for months and the PvP on Nagafen wasn't any better than it is now. Removing BGs would have no effect on open world PvP. The lack of contested PvE objectives is killing PvP, nothing else. Whoever at SoE makes the decision of putting better loot into instances than in the loot tables of contested monsters is killing the PvP on Nagafen.

That is absolutely far too simplistic a generalization.

It's an untoppable fact that battlegrounds & warfields provide an EASYMODE GUARANTEE which ABSOLUTELY DETRACTS from PURSUING THE OVERLAND HUNT.

In their current form, they're unacceptable for allowing healthy contested PvP to thrive.

Current PvP gear will retain its desirability for a long time due to solo-/heroic-oriented players who desire raid quality gear.

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:21 AM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

The lack of contested PvE objectives is killing PvP, nothing else.

QFE.

This is exactly right.  SOE killed eq2 openworld pvp when it made the decision that overland was to be solo and heroic and raids were to be instanced.  SOE openworld pvp has been in a deathsprial ever since.  It simply will not improve until soe gets pve folk back into the world and out of the instances.  Hell, if soe made travel a little tougher - got rid of the "calls" and "flags" and made people use the spires, bells and boats as in the old day - you would see more open world pvp.

As an aside, as soe has repeatedly shown no willingness to fix this, why are you guys still here?

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Old 09-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #44
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Knee2U wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

The lack of contested PvE objectives is killing PvP, nothing else.

QFE.

This is exactly right.  SOE killed eq2 openworld pvp when it made the decision that overland was to be solo and heroic and raids were to be instanced.  SOE openworld pvp has been in a deathsprial ever since.  It simply will not improve until soe gets pve folk back into the world and out of the instances.  Hell, if soe made travel a little tougher - got rid of the "calls" and "flags" and made people use the spires, bells and boats as in the old day - you would see more open world pvp.

As an aside, as soe has repeatedly shown no willingness to fix this, why are you guys still here?

Avatars are back.

I do agree with the above poster, and I would fully advocate removal of instant transportation items on pvp servers.  Being able to instantly get from a to b and spend only .001% of your time outside of instances, to me seems to go against the goals of the ruleset for this server.

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Old 09-20-2012, 12:53 PM   #45
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Knee2U wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

The lack of contested PvE objectives is killing PvP, nothing else.

QFE.

This is exactly right.  SOE killed eq2 openworld pvp when it made the decision that overland was to be solo and heroic and raids were to be instanced.  SOE openworld pvp has been in a deathsprial ever since.  It simply will not improve until soe gets pve folk back into the world and out of the instances.  Hell, if soe made travel a little tougher - got rid of the "calls" and "flags" and made people use the spires, bells and boats as in the old day - you would see more open world pvp.

As an aside, as soe has repeatedly shown no willingness to fix this, why are you guys still here?

I think you'll note a lot of players in this thread (& also just going by the weak "server activity blocks" on EQ2Players) no longer play actively (myself included) & have posted to represent sustained, last-ditch hope in SOE not being developmentally disabled.

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Old 09-20-2012, 04:20 PM   #46
Gealaen_Gaiamancer

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Leave Nagafen BG access alone--playing with Naggy folks (and killing them when they're on op force) is fun.

 

Want to liven up 'open world' PVP on Nagafen?  Get rid of the current instance paradigm.  It makes sense to spin up extra versions of a zone when a lot of people want in (like the starting cities and overland hubs when they're still the current popular expansion) ... so do the same with instanced dungeons.  Instead of only allowing 6 or 24 people in to each instance, allow at least one rival group or raid in, too.  Your team want those named mobs?  Get there over the other team's bodies.  Maybe have multiple starting points per dungeon so that the separate teams can jockey for position, lay ambushes, try to evade, etc.  Discuss.

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Old 09-21-2012, 05:18 AM   #47
Seliri

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Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

Leave Nagafen BG access alone--playing with Naggy folks (and killing them when they're on op force) is fun.

 

Want to liven up 'open world' PVP on Nagafen?  Get rid of the current instance paradigm.  It makes sense to spin up extra versions of a zone when a lot of people want in (like the starting cities and overland hubs when they're still the current popular expansion) ... so do the same with instanced dungeons.  Instead of only allowing 6 or 24 people in to each instance, allow at least one rival group or raid in, too.  Your team want those named mobs?  Get there over the other team's bodies.  Maybe have multiple starting points per dungeon so that the separate teams can jockey for position, lay ambushes, try to evade, etc.  Discuss.

Lol...battlegrounds ARE the instance paradigm...

You have 9 other servers from which to source battlegrounds drones, & your mere, lavish want for Nagafenians is supposed to justify the ruining of Nagafen's overland PvP community, that of which hundreds have had ample nostalgia, favor, & anxiety for?

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Old 09-24-2012, 12:01 PM   #48
karnath

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the only thing removing BG from nagafin will do is drop the population even further, some peeps will just quit and others will go to other servers. I enjoy doing the 30 - 89 BG's with guildys in those lvls, ATM its the only pvp u can do with different level tiers in a group and everyone able to compete, at least at some level.

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