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Old 01-13-2012, 03:13 PM   #1
SacDaddy420

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And I think that I should be able to parse side by side with predators and beastlords.    Currently with your mechanics at the endgame, that is not possible!

If we cant be boosted to our old place as true T1 dps, then please, change the creation screen wording because we are not masters of destruction anymore.      Thats melee.

Thanks!  Have a wondertastic day!

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Old 01-13-2012, 04:03 PM   #2
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I know plenty of wizards that can parse uptop along with the predators.

Maybe you should switch around your rotation or ask for a buff or two from troubs and bribe the friendly mystic with a roa once in a while. 

Good luck with those parses!!! SMILEY

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Old 01-13-2012, 04:30 PM   #3
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Thank you for your reply!  I'd like to happily inform you that with my gear alone I would dominate any casual dps player you have ever seen!  I am always top parse in any heroic group and I destroy every RW I go to by at least 100K!  But I appreciate your concern!

However you see Im not talking about Ring War or heroic zones.   I am talking about the end game, upper echelon raid zones and encounters. With all players fully buffed.

I find the wizard class to spike hard but suffer immediately afterwards, falling down the parse while the aforementioned classes catch up and overtake me once all my tricks and temps are down.

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Old 01-13-2012, 06:21 PM   #4
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our wizard doesn't seem to have any problems in drunder challenge zones!

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Old 01-13-2012, 09:13 PM   #5
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oh look its the "our x wizard has no trouble" post.  Hello friend Neiloch!  Sure as one who is in the better position dps wise you would never come and try to sabotage my post!   Thats just goes against human nature!   We're all honest friends here, right friend?

Preds and beastlords have the highest dps potential.  There is no equal to them.  Perhaps if I could Dimensionally Store the servant of ro and have 2+ pets proccing everything the entire zone I wouldnt be so unhappy.  Alas friend, I no summoner.

I am just an average wizard.  And perhaps Im only 1/100th as good at pressing buttons as my esteemed colleague Daray, but I feel I have a point.

I feel that some minor tweeks such as adding 5 more SDA to time compression would go a long way.  Perhaps even adding a Combat Mastery equivilant for spells would level the playing field.

All I know is that I dont have the ability to proc something like etox 5000x in ten seconds, and I dont have an auto attack that hits 8x every 2-4 seconds.  I feel mages and sorc's especially, need some love.

Thank you for your time.

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Old 01-13-2012, 09:47 PM   #6
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There isn't a whole lot to this thread to sabotage frankly. Just some personal testimony you are getting beat on parses and assumptions as to why. Do you honestly think people would take your word over their own personal observations?

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Old 01-13-2012, 10:48 PM   #7
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Well said friend Neiloch, well said.   You havent let me down in all these years with your constant disagreement with everythig I've ever posted.  So I take it to assume that your stance is that were all equal on the parse?  Interesting hypothesis coming from someone whom I have logged testimony from within your own guild stating you dont even raid that much and have antiquated gear.

But enough of our friendly exchange, friend.

I stand by my observation that melee is more powerful in this game then casters are.  Made even more clear by the rediculous numbers beastlords who havent even spent more than a week playtime on can blast right by me after I've blown my proverbial load.    When the gear and the buffs are optimized, the wizard is at a disadvantage.  When there isnt 20 adds to proc etox on, every mage is at a disadvantage.

Is that your idea of equality?

Please have a splendariffic day

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Old 01-13-2012, 11:10 PM   #8
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I would like to take a minute and calmly reflect and look back over the years.   I remember vividly the so called "whine threads" during KOS - the beginning of TSO made by melee.   You may remember those times back when my class was as OP as yours is now.

I like how the ideas are put forth by prominant preds that auto attack percentages havent changed much over the years.   Funny....there seems to be a lack of those threads like there was back then.    HMMMMMMM IS THIS A MERE COINCIDENCE?

You see friend I am just trying to use a proven tactic.

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Old 01-14-2012, 08:00 AM   #9
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I am amazed by your intensely hostile stance when I am not even all that sure who you are other than whats listed around your avatar. then again I am terribly bad remembering people on the internet. I can only assume you either misunderstood or have old 'testimony' from within my guild since I currently have a 99% attendance for raiding in my guild, 293 crit mit, 360 crit chance (both self buffed) and approaching 600 multi attack raid buffed.

Also did you not see the very window of time you just posted?: KoS- TSO. lol yes, the proven tactic of complaining for several YEARS before something is fixed. All while using MUCH better and more organized data than you have provided here along with much more player support.

My problem is that you have presented a very poor argument for what could be a very legitimate problem, but we wouldn't know that by this thread. Your argument of 'preds are op so buff wizards' with nothing to back it up just isn't very compelling.

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Old 01-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #10
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The fact that you fine gentlemen don't know who Sac is, is quite irrelevant - within the circles of veteran wizards, he is respected as a skilled and knowledgeable player, of many classes, not just Wizard.

The points that he has raised are valid - considering all gear and skill to be even (Ie: same gear and both players hitting all the right buttons at all the right times, coordinating with temps and debuffs, like any veteran dps class does in their sleep), wizards simply cannot compete.

Attack him all you want, attack me if you'd like - the fact remains that he speaks truth.

If your wizards are beating your summoners, predators, or beastlords, you need better summoners, predators, and beastlords.

Full stop.

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Old 01-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #11
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If Wizards are indeed intended to be a second class DPS class, then by all means, leave things as they are -

But I was under the impression that we were intended to tear it up - if that's not the case, we need better hate management tools, because a raid geared wizard is more of a burden in six man groups than a boon - they require dehates in their group and hates for the tank, while predators have transfers, and summoners and beastlords split their hate with their pets.

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Old 01-14-2012, 08:46 PM   #12
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Friends I am sorry if my tone took a southward direction there for a minute.  You see I am merely passionate about this class.

We can all only base our assumptions off what we really see in raid every night.  I see summoners using group procs to parse as high if not higher than I am able to espcially when there are mutliple targets involved.   I see both classes of predators being above everyone else 80% of the time.  Thats eighty percent.   I see beastlords who are alts come in and take me by 50K on mobs that are simply burn fights.

So wheres the niche wizards fall into?  What are the fights we are made for?   AE trash fights?  I do alright but a good warlock does better.   Single target burns?  Thats all predator.  Names with spawned hordes of adds?   Enter the summoner with 50% of his parse being group procs.   I wont even comment anymore on beastlords....

Every other T1 class has gotten buffed and loved in the past expansion.   Wizards have only gotten a small change to the mechanics of Fiery Blast.   Now, dont get me wrong I use ae's to their maximum effect on my FB when I can...but that still holds no candle to a warlocks 15 seconds of 100% SDA.

I made this toon in 2005 to be a contender on every parse.    Had I known that I could of had a pet and use procs to parse the same, or use melee and parse higher while being able to use almost every ability on the run and wear chain armor, I probably wouldnt have even rolled a wizard.

Thats right I would not of even made Sacdaddicus if I knew then what I know now.   I did not choose wizard to be EQUAL to summoners damage wise but not have a pet.  A wizard is supposed to be a beast, a god of destruction unparralled in his arts.  A glass cannon true to the definition.

I did not roll a wizard to be a T2 dps.   Please give us the ability to be on par with pred's and your new flavor of the month, beastlords.

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Old 01-14-2012, 08:55 PM   #13
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Even an uber casual like me understands that Warlocks outshine Wizards in a way that doesn't make sense given that they are supposed to be equals but for different circumstances (ae v solo).

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Old 01-15-2012, 05:22 AM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

The fact that you fine gentlemen don't know who Sac is, is quite irrelevant - within the circles of veteran wizards, he is respected as a skilled and knowledgeable player, of many classes, not just Wizard. Well it is when someone is assuming I know them in such a familiar manner. What IS irrelevant is his status. If he has a valid point an argument from authority is not needed nor should it be used.

The points that he has raised are valid - considering all gear and skill to be even (Ie: same gear and both players hitting all the right buttons at all the right times, coordinating with temps and debuffs, like any veteran dps class does in their sleep), wizards simply cannot compete. Okay but HOW. Simply saying its unbalanced = not good enough. WHAT exactly is causing imbalance. WHO is buffing who. What fights. Where. With what. Quantifiable DATA that is readily available to anyone with ACT and the ability to observe what is happening in-game.

Attack him all you want, attack me if you'd like - the fact remains that he speaks truth. I never attacked anyone, I asked for a burden of proof to be met which could only help. On the other hand so far every reply I have made has been met with hostility when I never indicated anyone was wrong. Asking for proof is not inherently an act of defiance or an accusation of being incorrect.

If your wizards are beating your summoners, predators, or beastlords, you need better summoners, predators, and beastlords.

Full stop.

Beastlords will get some nerfage. If not, at the very least, predators will be right next to sorcerers crying foul. At most a bunch of people will quit because they overtuned their mAcrotransaction class for more money.

My problem with this thread so far is the complete lack of data. Arguments from authority and personal accounts are not evidence, not data. They are personal testimony which means exactly nothing in regards to actually solving the problem. All I've really asked for is a burden of proof to be met, which is certainly possible, so YOUR case actually has weight to it and maybe someone will care.

After talking to wizards (who provided proof) I am fairly certain wizards are falling to the wayside, but unless complaints are accompanied by proof and data your complaints mean nothing. They would hold as much weight as bards complaining they don't have enough buffs.

You cite predators in the past who 'complained' and got 'fixed.' Apparently you completely missed the pages of DATA collected by said classes. I should know I was one of them that was constantly bringing forth data for rangers. AA comparisons, ability comparisons, itemization comparisons, raid parses, test parses, etc. I have no doubt you could find pages of people just saying 'we're broke, its no fun, fix it.' but I guarantee those posts aren't why classes get tweaked.

I'm trying to help here. Setting a burden of proof and meeting it can only help you if there is indeed a problem. I can't make you though. You can just stick to proclaiming there is a problem over and over and how much you don't like it but don't be surprised if nothing gets changed with such a weak argument.

What about wizard AA's that don't grow with itemization? How bad is it?

What about in-demand buffs that help warlocks more than wizards with no equivalent in favor of wizards?

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Old 01-15-2012, 01:26 PM   #15
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I played a warlock from launch until about the time focus (ranged) wands were introduced, which I saw as a terribly executed attempt at bridging the growing gap between predator and sorceror DPS.

The biggest problem is that in many cases 40-60%+ of predator DPS is coming from auto-attacks and sorcerors have no equivalent. It doesn't matter how many blue spell weapon stat damage bonuses you get or reforge, it's not going to make up for the fact that almost half of all predator damage comes from simply auto-attacking, while sorcerors are playing whack-a-mole with their spells just to keep pace.

Beastlords are a whole different matter. We all know they were made massively overpowered to sell AoD. This became obvious when a BL in a ( very well-geared) Drunder raid I was tanking consistently topped the parses only a week after a release of the class and without his mythical. Although this example is only anecdotal, I can assure you that I have seen this repeated many more times since then.

If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.

Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.

/thread

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Old 01-15-2012, 02:53 PM   #16
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hoosierdaddy wrote:

If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.

Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.

/thread

Wonder how long it will take for them to get nerfed. 1 month, 6 months, 2 years. I'm glad this isn't another Sac attempt to give the Warlock's Focus Casting to the Wizards. Maybe a massive boost to the ranged wands auto attack would help.

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Old 01-15-2012, 04:05 PM   #17
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hoosierdaddy wrote:

If you want real statistical data on just how OP'd Beastlords are at the moment, go have a look around at the class forums of some of the other EQ2 fan web sites, where players will often post their parses in comparison to one another. There is no comparing anyone's DPS with that of the potential DPS of Beastlords at the moment.

Even one of the Beastlords posting his parses jokes by saying that to call BL's T1 DPS is a mistake, because it assumes there are other classes in their same tier.

/thread

haha no I don't think anyone needs proof for beastlords, that is just common knowledge now. They will need to be nerfed or everyone else boosted for other DPS classes to remain a viable choice. If it stays like this much longer anyone playing a DPS class other than a beastlord is simply wasting everyone's time.

They will probably get nerfed a while after AoD sales bottom out and a part of the playerbase is then attached/invested to their beastlord. Basically a time-frame to successfully pull off a bait and switch.

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Old 01-15-2012, 06:08 PM   #18
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If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.

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Old 01-15-2012, 07:10 PM   #19
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To be clear, let's keep this on topic - this is not about beastlords being the highest parsing class in the game atm, that much is a given for anyone paying attention to end game raid content.

This is about Wizards not being able to compete under the grand majority of circumstances with other dps classes.

I'd say tier 1 dps classes, but it seems that convention has fallen by the wayside when it was forgotten how much utility summoners offer.

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Old 01-16-2012, 02:21 PM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.

So...every wizard should re-roll?

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Old 01-16-2012, 06:29 PM   #21
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hoosierdaddy wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If the grass is no longer green, seek new pastures.

So...every wizard should re-roll?

I could link that dirge thread from not long ago.  

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Old 01-16-2012, 06:45 PM   #22
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Honestly if I could rank it ATM I'd say it's

Beastlord

Warlock

Assassin

Ranger

Wizard.

Just my 2p. skill for skill. different encounters can offer different results blah blah blah ect ect but raw potential thats how I'd rank it.

Edit: The last 3 being neck and neck, warlocks having a slight edge and beastlord's just being over the top.

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Old 01-16-2012, 09:14 PM   #23
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I throw my full support behind Sac on this.  The situation isn't good for Wizards.  For me, its just depressing.  I'm the best DPS wizard in our guild for the past years and I am consistently beaten by an equally geared assassin ZW and on individual fights.  My best DPS parse on a raid is 70k under his and he will often parse 100k over mine.  (And this is with the assassin not getting Combat Mastery).  The warlock is closer, but he has such a high burst DPS with FC and PB.  I struggle to maintain pace with him, and a good percentage of the fights, I just have no chance at all.  And that is single target, AE is worse.

The beastlord, well I was prepared to get beaten by beastlords on the parse.  I just didn't think it would happen so quickly or when the beastlord was still so undergeared.  One raid fight the beastlord switched specs and he generated over 90% of power the coercer did and beat both illys easily ... and I beat him by 10k on the parse.

Its frustrating.  I've raided on this toon for 3+ years.  Its not my casting order.  Its not my AA spec.  We need Dev help.

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Old 01-16-2012, 10:13 PM   #24
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it makes no sense for beastlords to not be insanely OP for a while. they cost $40 to buy AoD. I think cyclical class imbalance is a game design choice not an accidental oversight by SOE. supposed to add flavor i guess. i was pretty upset when my favorite class was nerfed, so i rerolled. whats the point of playing an underpowered class? im not one of those ppl who bragged about being sk long before it was popular. lol those guys are funny! if devs pay any attention to this complaint its very sad. other classes have longer history of obsolescence with less love.
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:26 PM   #25
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ratbastard wrote:

it makes no sense for beastlords to not be insanely OP for a while. they cost $40 to buy AoD. I think cyclical class imbalance is a game design choice not an accidental oversight by SOE. supposed to add flavor i guess. i was pretty upset when my favorite class was nerfed, so i rerolled. whats the point of playing an underpowered class? im not one of those ppl who bragged about being sk long before it was popular. lol those guys are funny! if devs pay any attention to this complaint its very sad. other classes have longer history of obsolescence with less love.

I don't think imbalance is the goal - the opposite in fact. I mean, we have a dev whose sole purpose is class balance, do we not?

Don't get me wrong, I think balance is going quite well for classes that have had problems for a long time, better these days than in ages. Ideally I beleive every class should have their own specific application, and currently, there's no job that a wizard can do that can not be done better by a ranger or warlock.

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Old 01-17-2012, 12:36 PM   #26
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Laws of Averages will show any Dev that the Beastlord class is under powered and thus will hold of nerfing them until more data is available.  The simple fact is that some players are good and others are not.  With the Beastlord class this will be much more prevelant due to the share number of beastlords created.  For every top parsing BL there will be 50 that are under performing and that will casue the data curves for DPS to be skewed for a while yet.

The class is only 6/7 weeks old.  Not every BL out there is 90/320.  Many are still in the 50/150 range or below.  There are threads with a lot of support asking the solo portion of the BL epic to be NERFED because it is "too hard" for them.  There is a huge number of bad BL's compared to the few which have fully embraced the class to its fullest potential.  I myself have been in groups and raids with BLs of both types.  Where one will easily top the parse and the other will parse BELOW the healers.  It is an application in understanding.

The issue is that the "good" players will always out perform under any class condtion, but TBH those players are becoming few and far between.  I think the Beastlords will be rebalanced, but not for a while to come yet.

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Old 01-17-2012, 01:32 PM   #27
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I'm no friend of wizards, but I'll play the "I'll scratch your back..." game here. This is an issue for both sorcerer classes, definitely. Warlocks may have our short periods of major spike damage, but...Warlocks and Wizards don't benefit from stats like DPS, AE Autoattack, Haste, Multi Attack, Flurry. Spell Weapon Damage is a joke and a waste of our time.

When we hit soft cap on our Cast Speed and Reuse, the only thing we can dump points into is the somewhat underwhelming Ability Modifier. When a Predator or Beastlord can hit soft cap DPS/Haste/MA, they are starting to be able to make huge gains in Ability Cast Speed and Ability Reuse. Problem is, Warlocks and Wizards were close to the cast speed and reuse caps expansions ago. On the other hand, Very few scout classes were as stacked in the DPS/Haste/MA trio as they are now. Sorcerers need something... more. Either a slight overcap in cast speed allowed to further reduce cast times (like how Haste can go up to 200) or Spell Flurry... or giving Troubs the Spell Equiv of Combat Mastery...

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Old 01-17-2012, 06:24 PM   #28
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Or giving wizards the spell equivalent of combat mastery!

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Old 01-17-2012, 07:33 PM   #29
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I have to admit I read this thread and had a laugh.  To the OP:  It could be worse, imagine if your favorite class was a Conjuror.

I happen to play a Conjuror and while I am not even close to your level of gear I can tell you that me and other conjurors in similar gear/stats are being destroyed, in regards to dps, by:  scouts, wizards, warlocks, and Sks.

It is downright embarrising.

Your right.  BL are killing you.. so are all other scouts.  They are killing me to and I am sure they are killing Conjurors at yoru gear level.

Summoners need some help as well.

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Old 01-17-2012, 07:38 PM   #30
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Bauglir wrote:

I have to admit I read this thread and had a laugh.  To the OP:  It could be worse, imagine if your favorite class was a Conjuror.

Pretty much everyone that reads your whole thread will laugh too.

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