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Old 08-10-2007, 12:07 PM   #1
Bloodfa
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As the threads on this subject can get heated, ugly, turn into flamewars, or just run on into 28 pages of nerf requests with a few real gems of insight scattered here and there, a suggestion was made to me, and it seemed like a good idea.  How about someplace where we could put together a wish list, personal bias set aside, and agree upon the things that need fixing, with a few suggestions that everybody can agree upon?  Essentially, a summary with a running list of things that might be able to draw, and keep, a Dev's attention without them having to wade through 40 pages of bickering.  One with just a few suggestions, a couple variations on how to implement them, and the pros & cons.  No cheap shots, no insults, no completely ludicrous ideas, but legitimate desires.

I'll start with a few that have been posted by various members which have carried an overall community "seal of approval" as it were.  My apologies to the originators of these ideas, as I can't spare the necessary hours to research those particular details at the moment.

Zone Level changes.

Better protection around the towns.

Resists versus players on a different tier.

Change the amount of faction required for PvP gear.

Fix the mentoring system for PvP.

Something to deter griefing (not ganking, there is a difference).

A system for 'guides' to advertise to new players that they're willing to assist in training them, teaching them the ropes.  This could also include crafters willing to do the same for a newbie.

A tutorial in the Trial requiring all new toons to acknowledge that they are aware of what they're getting into. 

All I ask is that constructive, positive suggestions only be posted here.  If we can agree upon this in a rational manner, and hand the Dev's something that we, as a community, agree upon, we might be able get some positive changes made to keep PvP alive and well.  If there are other suggestions that I've overlooked, or new ones that the majority would like to add, I'll try to keep this updated.  If my iniaital list has something that I've misinterpreted, let me know and I'll adjust it accordingly.  Thanks in advance to all of you who want to make it a better, more viable game for everybody.

*edited to remove personal opinion

++++++++++ Okay, this is the sort of discourse I was hoping for guys.  Let's keep the ideas coming.

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:25 PM   #2
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Let's hope for a positive thread.

Some thing's I'd like to see:

1. Longer fights (I know they've already increased the fight length but they can be a tad bit longer)

2. More meaning to PvP - Even a simple scoring system that details kill vs death ratio for you respective city.  Whoever has a better score at the end of the week wins and gets some kind of city-wide reward for the next week.

3. Remove titles - They don't offer anything and they promote running.

4. Allow people to "win" a fight without killing - If someone runs from you, you should get infamy for winning the fight.  Have an invisible barrier when people engage.  The person who runs out of the barrier is considered the loser.

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:34 PM   #3
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Have an invisible barrier when people engage.  The person who runs out of the barrier is considered the loser.

Like in a PvE duel???

Creative Idea, look good

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:35 PM   #4
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Don't agree with the 'win' without killing someone. What about rangers and troubs that have to kite to win?

Just make it so you cannot lose fame when you die and people wont run.

Titles go by how many people you kill. Don't add kills for grey PVP.

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:36 PM   #5
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We get about one of these posts a week, while I think they are a good idea, I don't think we can do much more to open the channel of communication. As players we are doing our bit, it's up to SOE to respond, take notice or acknowledge them. It's their game they can either choose to entertain feedback like this, or risk us finding other outlets for all our comment, creativity and money SMILEY

Anyway in response to the first 'givens'

I'm not sure zone level changes got a "seal of approval", i think the mechanic in itself serves to protect players from those a lot higher.

Adjust faction yes, but don't make them easily available, this stuff should be for people who work at pvp quite hard.

Increasing the level of protection around town will just mean more people hugging these defenses, not getting out there fighting.

Mentoring in PvP appears to be a bug, or they didn't consider everything in the scaling, this needs to change.

Griefing/ganking, it's in all games of this genre, it's not going to go away. Give players alternatives to having to face confrontation if they are looking to level and explore.

Guides, nah, that's what guilds are for. Find a good one, you'll get this help. Find a bad one, leave and find a good one!

Trial, yes definitely, weed out those who really don't want to play in this way. Any changes are going to be about keeping the majority happy. Let's ensure this majority are people who are a little more serious and competitive!

In addition to those, here are the one's I've been trying to champion.

1) Remove the ability to level lock, reduce the amount of xp from pvp to a lot less than currently. Allow people the ability to enjoy each teir, as it's obvious folks like to get the most out of the content, however, don't allow them to settle for that as end game. This may allow other people, but to be honest

  1. Most people have been there, done that, now.
  2. It's detering players trying to get into the game.
  3. It's ensuring content is just not being used on some PvP server.
  4. Locking means you are negating the effects of unpredicability. You are ensuring you don't fight players of the next teir with mastercrafted equipment. This is not what the system was designed for.
  5. Everyone else will level too, you'll still be able to fight against your most favoured enemies!
  6. People need to level for the forthcoming expansion. Some people have never even seen T7, other have never been in a raid instance. This is a huge game, and people are exhausting maybe 3 or 4 zone relentlessly and then getting burned out.

2) Make consequences for fleeing fights, make people stand and fight if attacked.

3) Give us more title, more content. Make people a lot less afraid of dropping a title level as there are much more. Give people choices as to titles to add variation. Link PvP titles to some level of reward other than a word above their head. The ability to cosmetically upgrade mounts or buffs are two examples.

4) Let's look at some of the T4-T5 zone, they are boring as hell to PvP in. Maybe do some changes, similar to the work done in Ant and CL in recent months.

5) Give us areas for designated PvP which give higher than usual rewards in terms of fame to help concentrate the action and ensure people can jump into battle a lot more easily.

6) Finally, get acknowledgement from the dev team that PvP is important, it's definitely helped in EQ2's success, so ensure they have resources available to support players who choose to enjoy this very fun dimension to the game. As they say once you go to a PvP server, there isn't any going back. More and more games are shifting to a player vs player conflict type scenario, so step up plans to ensure this game is spearheading this initiative!

I don't think there will ever be agreement as much as it's nice to have. I think we can only present our own ideas, seek support from other members of the forums and in game and try and pursue their follow up. I think it's a little dangerous to summarize community opinion as only a certain demographic use these forums, and then again, only the most vocal would dare post PvP thoughts. Thanks for your efforts however.

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:44 PM   #6
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Derrickray wrote:

Let's hope for a positive thread.

Some thing's I'd like to see:

1. Longer fights (I know they've already increased the fight length but they can be a tad bit longer)

2. More meaning to PvP - Even a simple scoring system that details kill vs death ratio for you respective city.  Whoever has a better score at the end of the week wins and gets some kind of city-wide reward for the next week.

3. Remove titles - They don't offer anything and they promote running.

4. Allow people to "win" a fight without killing - If someone runs from you, you should get infamy for winning the fight.  Have an invisible barrier when people engage.  The person who runs out of the barrier is considered the loser.

If I don't die then in my eyes its a win for me. Some classes like rangers and my class a dirge need a lot of room to run around. This is an open environment pvp game this is not a dueling system.

Chaly, some of those are good point but a few are still disputed by just as many. So Zone level changes are still in debate just as many think there fine as they are now. Mentoring is what it is and I use it all the time to mentor and finish things I need done and help out my guildies and friends.

I agree with most of everything else your saying I really wanna see a faction change that alone would likely have a big impact on what others see as a problem.

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Old 08-10-2007, 12:48 PM   #7
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Derrickray wrote:

4. Allow people to "win" a fight without killing - If someone runs from you, you should get infamy for winning the fight.  Have an invisible barrier when people engage.  The person who runs out of the barrier is considered the loser.

This would only work if you locked pvp encounters, if a full group descends on you in mid fight you deserve to be able to run away.

I've heard several people suggest a locked duel feature with the opposing side.  This would allow two people who want to duel each other to be able fight without other people being able to interfere.  Yes dueling is on the pve servers but some of us enjoy both open pvp and dueling.

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Old 08-10-2007, 01:07 PM   #8
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I don't think its the goal of the post to debate anything here...

Would you just please shoot Ideas? Even if someone think is the most stupid idea they ever read, answer by sending your idea without discredit those already wrote

For myself, all I was agree as been wrote, let see if others have new idea

(Sorry for my english)

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Old 08-10-2007, 01:22 PM   #9
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Geinoch wrote:

I don't think its the goal of the post to debate anything here...

Would you just please shoot Ideas? Even if someone think is the most stupid idea they ever read, answer by sending your idea without discredit those already wrote

For myself, all I was agree as been wrote, let see if others have new idea

(Sorry for my english)

Debate is no bad thing, it can cause people to re-evaluate their ideas from constructive critisism, it certainly has me. I wouldn't worry too much as most have offered excellent feedback and there is a lot less tooing and froing than other threads on this forum, I think this post derailed itself establishing the 'givens' at the start, rather than startign with a blank canvas.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:27 PM   #10
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Geinoch wrote:

I don't think its the goal of the post to debate anything here...

Would you just please shoot Ideas? Even if someone think is the most stupid idea they ever read, answer by sending your idea without discredit those already wrote

For myself, all I was agree as been wrote, let see if others have new idea

(Sorry for my english)

When th OP states this then yeah there is room for debate.

I'll start with a few that have been posted by various members which have carried an overall community "seal of approval" as it were.  My apologies to the originators of these ideas, as I can't spare the necessary hours to research those particular details at the moment.

Because it is just not true.

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Old 08-10-2007, 01:32 PM   #11
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hmmm Ok so he should repost a topic without mentionnig this and he would be ok then?

Here are Ideas Goods or Bads, stupids or not , we don't care, just write it?

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Old 08-10-2007, 01:41 PM   #12
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[email protected] wrote:
Just make it so you cannot lose fame when you die and people wont run.
I really don't think this is true. People will run to preserve their killstreak, people will run so they don't have as many deaths. The same people who run away now will still run away. The complaints about people running quite often come from full groups. We'll be in a group, we'll meet someone, they'll leg it. I don't think this would change if the title system was removed. I think this is a huge issue with EQ2 PvP. It's getting to the point where we're not bothering to group at all because when we do there's nobody to fight since everyone is out solo or ends up in raids. One extra person or one specific class just makes far, far too much difference and it makes people afraid to fight because they're certain they will lose. Now, if they removed all documentation of PvP kills/deaths as well, that might work. But then you'd probably get people not PvPing at all even more than now because "there's no reward". Also I have no problem with the grey issue. I think people of lower level should be able to fight you. But it is annoying that I cannot engage them when it's perfectly possible for them to kill me. Either level it out somehow so it's a more equal fight, or make me immune to them. Huge groups of level 59s sitting at the docks ready to jump into every fight is getting pretty irritating.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:41 PM   #13
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Geinoch wrote:

hmmm Ok so he should repost a topic without mentionnig this and he would be ok then?

Here are Ideas Goods or Bads, stupids or not , we don't care, just write it?

Let's just carry on, the call to stop this type of behaviour has derailed this far more than any other response.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:43 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Just make it so you cannot lose fame when you die and people wont run.
I really don't think this is true. People will run to preserve their killstreak, people will run so they don't have as many deaths. The same people who run away now will still run away. The complaints about people running quite often come from full groups. We'll be in a group, we'll meet someone, they'll leg it. I don't think this would change if the title system was removed. Now, if they removed all documentation of PvP kills/deaths as well, that might work. But then you'd probably get people not PvPing at all even more than now because "there's no reward".
Very good points to added here, and often overlooked.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:45 PM   #15
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Wraithstalker wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Just make it so you cannot lose fame when you die and people wont run.
I really don't think this is true. People will run to preserve their killstreak, people will run so they don't have as many deaths. The same people who run away now will still run away. The complaints about people running quite often come from full groups. We'll be in a group, we'll meet someone, they'll leg it. I don't think this would change if the title system was removed. Now, if they removed all documentation of PvP kills/deaths as well, that might work. But then you'd probably get people not PvPing at all even more than now because "there's no reward".
Very good points to added here, and often overlooked.

I don't think the "no title loss" idea is meant to encourage people to run less.

I think it's to encourage them to leave the city more.

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Old 08-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #16
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Bozidar wrote:
I don't think the "no title loss" idea is meant to encourage people to run less.

I think it's to encourage them to leave the city more.

That doesn't make sense to me. All the people who have Dreadnaught or Champion titles are outside PvPing all the time. The people who never leave the city also never get over slayer. There are plenty of people on Venekor who I've only ever seen running to raid instances and none of them are ever Destroyer+. The no title loss argument is always presented because people feel that Champion+ people only have it because they run away all the time. Personally although I very much dislike losing infamy and therefore will run off I also feel that titles are a reasonable display of skill. You don't get Master by being bad. Exploity maybe, and you'll run off from unbalanced fights... but who wouldn't do that anyway?
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:00 PM   #17
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[email protected] wrote:
That doesn't make sense to me. All the people who have Dreadnaught or Champion titles are outside PvPing all the time. The people who never leave the city also never get over slayer. There are plenty of people on Venekor who I've only ever seen running to raid instances and none of them are ever Destroyer+. The no title loss argument is always presented because people feel that Champion+ people only have it because they run away all the time. Personally although I very much dislike losing infamy and therefore will run off I also feel that titles are a reasonable display of skill. You don't get Master by being bad. Exploity maybe, and you'll run off from unbalanced fights... but who wouldn't do that anyway?

There are a host of great pvpers who never leave the city because they fell into the title trap.  I don't have to convince you it's true, i've seen it and i see it every day.  Just walk down to the docks and consult your local Overseer.

Xova explained this all pretty well, imo.

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Old 08-10-2007, 02:06 PM   #18
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Bozidar wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
That doesn't make sense to me. All the people who have Dreadnaught or Champion titles are outside PvPing all the time. The people who never leave the city also never get over slayer. There are plenty of people on Venekor who I've only ever seen running to raid instances and none of them are ever Destroyer+. The no title loss argument is always presented because people feel that Champion+ people only have it because they run away all the time. Personally although I very much dislike losing infamy and therefore will run off I also feel that titles are a reasonable display of skill. You don't get Master by being bad. Exploity maybe, and you'll run off from unbalanced fights... but who wouldn't do that anyway?

There are a host of great pvpers who never leave the city because they fell into the title trap.  I don't have to convince you it's true, i've seen it and i see it every day.  Just walk down to the docks and consult your local Overseer.

Xova explained this all pretty well, imo.

Would this be mitigated by having a whole lot more titles to go for? They hit a wall and so the only way is down. That would explain this behaviour in far more realistic terms. Add a bunch of new acheivements and titles and keep the player based stimulated, rather than take away no consiquences for sloppy play.
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:09 PM   #19
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[email protected] wrote:

Don't agree with the 'win' without killing someone. What about rangers and troubs that have to kite to win?

When I say barrier I don't mean an area so small that nobody can kite.  That would be stupid.  Just a designated area where when you "flee" its no debate about whether you wanted to keep fighting or not.

Or better yet, lets get rid of the whole"in-combat" deal.  The player shold ultimately decide whether they want to be in-combat or not.  The only way to run from a fight should be to get out of combat then turn around and run.  That way there's no "barrier" and you lose the moment you leave combat.

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Old 08-10-2007, 02:16 PM   #20
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Wraithstalker wrote:
Bozidar wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
That doesn't make sense to me. All the people who have Dreadnaught or Champion titles are outside PvPing all the time. The people who never leave the city also never get over slayer. There are plenty of people on Venekor who I've only ever seen running to raid instances and none of them are ever Destroyer+. The no title loss argument is always presented because people feel that Champion+ people only have it because they run away all the time. Personally although I very much dislike losing infamy and therefore will run off I also feel that titles are a reasonable display of skill. You don't get Master by being bad. Exploity maybe, and you'll run off from unbalanced fights... but who wouldn't do that anyway?

There are a host of great pvpers who never leave the city because they fell into the title trap.  I don't have to convince you it's true, i've seen it and i see it every day.  Just walk down to the docks and consult your local Overseer.

Xova explained this all pretty well, imo.

Would this be mitigated by having a whole lot more titles to go for? They hit a wall and so the only way is down. That would explain this behaviour in far more realistic terms. Add a bunch of new acheivements and titles and keep the player based stimulated, rather than take away no consiquences for sloppy play.
I personally don't think so.  More titles doesn't appeal to me, just making the ones higher than I haven't gotten yet.  I can honestly see making a high title like general and then really not feeling like I had a whole lot more to prove on that toon.  Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:19 PM   #21
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Bozidar wrote:
There are a host of great pvpers who never leave the city because they fell into the title trap.  I don't have to convince you it's true, i've seen it and i see it every day.  Just walk down to the docks and consult your local Overseer.

Xova explained this all pretty well, imo.

Maybe that is true of Nagafen. Not on Venekor. We have one Master, and he is out PvPing (and posting on the boards) all the time. We have a few generals, again they're out all the time. I have never seen an Overseer. I just don't think there are enough people. Part of the problem with us all suggesting PvP fixes is that the different levels of population on the 3 PvP servers makes for massively different problems/solutions for us all. Plus, Bozidar, you are level 25 and I'd guess that the PvP at that tier is vastly different from the PvP at other Tiers, and the same goes for me at 70.
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:25 PM   #22
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[email protected] wrote:
Bozidar wrote:
There are a host of great pvpers who never leave the city because they fell into the title trap.  I don't have to convince you it's true, i've seen it and i see it every day.  Just walk down to the docks and consult your local Overseer.

Xova explained this all pretty well, imo.

Maybe that is true of Nagafen. Not on Venekor. We have one Master, and he is out PvPing (and posting on the boards) all the time. We have a few generals, again they're out all the time. I have never seen an Overseer. I just don't think there are enough people. Part of the problem with us all suggesting PvP fixes is that the different levels of population on the 3 PvP servers makes for massively different problems/solutions for us all. Plus, Bozidar, you are level 25 and I'd guess that the PvP at that tier is vastly different from the PvP at other Tiers, and the same goes for me at 70.

please don't be one of those guys that makes assumptions of me based on my signature.. don't be one of them.

I agree that the problems might be different based on server population, i'm a veteran of vox.  On Vox, and Naggy, there are overseers and there are a lot of high-title folks who just don't pvp anymore.

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Old 08-10-2007, 03:33 PM   #23
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Ideas:

1. 

For titles make it so only a limited number of people can hold any title on a server except the lowest one which would be unlimited.

1 overseer for FP, Q, and Exile

3 of the next rank down etc etc

This would make more competetion amongst the players.

2.

Allow some type of communication between the factions in game. People use alts and petnames and out of game venues to communicate now. Why not make it available without having to waste an alt or use cumbersome work arounds.

Perhaps a channel which only overseers can use, then another channel which the next rank down can use. There is diplomacy in war. Maybe a Guild lvl 50+ (or whatever number seems appropriate) officers channel. (Keep the channels limited to smaller groups to avoid misconduct)

This would allow some prearranged PVP, challenges, battles etc. to occur as some have wished for in other threads.

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Old 08-10-2007, 03:36 PM   #24
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Complementary 

2.

Allow some type of communication

Allow the /say option and language change not only lucanic... or antonican

Even create quest to speak the enemies languages

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Old 08-10-2007, 03:38 PM   #25
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Dabbler wrote:

Ideas:

1. 

For titles make it so only a limited number of people can hold any title on a server except the lowest one which would be unlimited.

1 overseer for FP, Q, and Exile

3 of the next rank down etc etc

This would make more competetion amongst the players.

Not a bad idea.  Problem is that populations aren't constant throughout pvp servers.  So naggy has 2X the number of people than venekor and vox have combined, yet have the same number of players with high titles?

I think i smell an incoming complicated game mechanic SMILEY  ftl

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Old 08-10-2007, 03:48 PM   #26
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You could just base the numbers on the total server population.

Still limiting the very top levels to a certain number.

Say you have 5000 (made up #) characters on a server:

1 Overseer

2 Generals

.1 % of pop = Next level (5)

.3% of pop = next level (15)

and so on.

Have it figure the numbers out on the server maintenance every morning (I think they do that every day)

That way it would cut down on the load to the server. No rank changes during play, but the next day when you log in, you might find someone passed you up and you dropped a rank or vice versa.

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Old 08-11-2007, 08:28 AM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

Something to deter griefing (not ganking, there is a difference).

just wondering why ganking shouldnt be deterred.. you get a great fame hit with a group killing a solo. My first slayer title was doing practically just this. I personally think that ganking should be detered, griefing however.. I dont have as much of a problem with if its a single player in zone, within the con range. Im a freeporter, and if there are Q's at my gates then I will kill them. Why should I be detered because they are on my /recent ?!? similarly, if I am being griefed soloing- by a solo, the person is within my con range, and I should be able to see him coming - and /yell and run, or move elsewhere. if I am being griefed by a group solo - see my position on ganking, which SHOULD be detered.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:48 AM   #28
yellowbelly08

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Having been pvping prominently on Nagafen since launch here are my suggestions:

1.) Remove fame loss. Make it harder and needing more fame kills to gain a rank but make it not possible to lose it. People will not run or hide if this were the case they would try to pvp A LOT.

2.) Have other rewards for pvp. eg extra titles such as "the chosen" for each player per server with the highest fame or kills for their class. The chosen player receives a mythical pvp item which then transfers to the next player when he loses it.

3.) Have specially designed solo pvp zones where players are locked in combat when engaged.

4.) Introduce rewards for raiding the other factions cities.

5.) A random popping contested epic npc in any zone that once popped and killed by a faction decreases that factions broker fees to 0 and allows vendor selling for 10% more.

6.) Add incentives to pvp away from KOS clouds.

7.) weekly or monthly solo and grp pvp events.

Galoro

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Old 08-11-2007, 10:49 AM   #29
MaNiaGG84

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This all wud end in

1 Lvl 14 Overseer

1 Level 15 Master, 1 20 Master and 1 17 Master

etc

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Old 08-11-2007, 11:02 AM   #30
yellowbelly08

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And if those toons choose to rack up the massive number of fame kills required for this at that lvl, so be it. Tho I seriously doubt there will be enough generals/masters at that lvl to kill enough to reach overseer tbh.... Most will realise you will not be judged until your 70 and we already have masters at those tiers as it is. That reminds me of a further pvp suggestion---remove lvl locking, this would make the above scenario impossible and also vastly improve the game for new players. and also make pvp and grouping plentiful at all tiers, the way it should be.

Galoro

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