Practiced Effects and Altar of Malice

Bloodguts · 11-05-2014, 09:24 PM

I would have preferred to see Practiced jewelry be support classes only, like Chanter/Bard/Healers, but this is good change as well i suppose.

They'll still be best in slot rings so everyone and their mothers will want the CB/POT and CB rings for their toons and disregard any other ring out there.

Neiloch · 11-05-2014, 09:26 PM

Sounds like uplifting stuff and others will be CLEARLY better for the person equipping it, so its gonna be harder for people to get on board with the group procs, imo.

Iseous · 11-05-2014, 09:36 PM

Yeah, it's a little ridiculous how these can give more stats than an uplifting proc per person. They should give more stats overall to the group but uplifting procs should be better for a single person.

And what about Amplifying Effects (stats based on how many other people have these) vs. Focused Effects (stats based on how long you have stood still)? For example, for the same tier of each effect, Amplifying gives 84 - 176% while Focused gives 48 - 120%. Considering you generally have to move at least a little bit, why would you use Focused Effects when a group using Amplifying Effects instead would probably be better than even the highest amount of Focused (even if you could stand still)?

Bloodguts · 11-05-2014, 09:43 PM

Everyone's going to wear Uplifting Earrings, Amplifying Wrists, the upgraded x2 charms and Practiced Rings. There is no other choice for a best in slot.

Daray · 11-05-2014, 09:59 PM

I agree this needed to be done (as I have stated elsewhere).

However, I'd much prefer if it was done in a way such that the maximum potential values granted were reduced, but that the practiced items reached this new maximum potential faster than it currently takes for them to max their counters.

E.g. if trying to reduce their value by half, then cut the counters from 60 to 30 instead of reducing the 'per counter' attribute value by half.

Salbain · 11-06-2014, 01:28 AM

Yes because further railroading the mentioned classes into taking specific items is a great idea. Finding quality utility classes is getting harder and harder and doing as you suggest will further reduce the pool.

On a side note are we only to expect 3, 4 and 5 versions of existing items as the expansion goes on? Its getting a little old. Someone needs to turn off the loot bot at some point.

I guess we shall see.

Silzin · 11-06-2014, 03:12 AM

Is this going to include the Uplifting and Amplifying procs as well?

Nezette · 11-06-2014, 07:42 AM

Are you dumb? The practiced items are currently BiS for ALL classes (minus tanks, maybe). That's like saying, "woe is me, I'm being forced to fly first class while every one else is jammed away in the cargo hold..."

Like, it really sucks gearing out a raid when everyone wants the same entire right side. Plus, there's a disparity in practiced procs between the groups because the dps groups get benefit from 6/6 while fighter groups get, at best, 5/6 2 of which on healers who are ridiculously slow at gaining increments. By limiting by classes, you get a better balance between groups and you can make more use of the loot table. (That said, this is less of an issue in AoM since types--practiced/focus/amplifying/uplifting-- are sorted by slots. But like, in ToV, uplifting ears generally rot in favor of practiced.)

But yeah, mind is blown that you think utility classes would be like, "yeah, no, I don't want BiS gear... take it away... take it away..."

Xelgad · 11-06-2014, 08:14 AM

With the Altar of Malice expansion, we'll be reducing the effectiveness of the "Practiced" items (excluding Strike.)

This adjustment is being done to put the Practiced Effects more in line with the other available effects.

The new values should be on beta soon.

Katanallama · 11-06-2014, 08:18 AM

Thank you! It was getting silly, tho I will forever cherish the time I got up to 800 wdb in raid Frown

And I do really mean it, these effects were silly on any fight over 3 minutes :3

Ebofu · 11-06-2014, 11:19 AM

It was posited that instead of realigning their value you simply limit the classes which can use them. So arguing that they are BiS so you should wear them is irrelevant because the alternative was they wouldn't be BiS. He was simply complaining because they are so obscenely better than any alternative, it would have further pigeon holed utility classes unfairly, in comparison to everyone else.

Simply put, they desperately needed to be addressed. Whether they no longer stack, and its simply a shared buff with more items increasing proc rate, or reducing their values per increment is inconsequential. Only took them an entire expansion to realise.

Buffrat · 11-06-2014, 12:09 PM

The current values would be absolutely fine if they didn't stack per group member...

Marq · 11-06-2014, 02:33 PM

Looks like the new values are basically 1/3 increment raise and 1/3 max amount, someone linked Legionnaires wrist and it was like .3 per increment and 18 max. Assuming they still stack tho?

Would rather see old values and no stacking like Buffrat said...

wazul · 11-06-2014, 04:48 PM

agree with buffrat !
remove stack on praticed and restore old value.

with tov and now with altar, many items in raid are must have for all roster : because stack effect.
and many another drop are useless.... because all need same item for stack effect.

we need farm 10 or 20 round same zone for the same item.
less stack = different choice itemisation for players = less farm = more fun, better diversity for each

Daray · 11-06-2014, 05:39 PM

Yeah, looks like the lot were cut to 1/3 effectiveness across the board (which is fair).

However.

Instead of cutting the per increment attribute value to 1/3 of the original, perhaps consider leaving the per increment value alone, and cutting the max increment counter from 60 down to 20. These things still take forever and a day to fully increment as it is.

Mogrim · 11-06-2014, 06:51 PM

Right - the change on beta, if it goes live, essentially makes all practiced items nearly worthless.
Personally, I would've gone with 1/2 effectiveness across the board by doing max counter to 30 (like Daray suggested before, I believe)

Buffrat · 11-06-2014, 09:59 PM

Makes practiced items worthless on sub-3 minute fights***

Bloodguts · 11-06-2014, 10:31 PM

They're still best in slot on long fights. And on short fight i would probably still use them 'cuz why the **** not?

Hammdaddy · 11-07-2014, 02:55 AM

Delete practiced items all together honestly, the fact that my parse goes up 60% based off of 4 items is ridiculous.

Hammdaddy · 11-08-2014, 09:20 PM

Another thing after reviewing these is if you're going to make them worse, atleast make them not garbage. It takes too long to max these that no one will want to wear them, especially selfish utility.

Neiloch · 11-10-2014, 07:34 PM

I would prefer this as well.

konofo · 11-11-2014, 08:09 AM

Even a mix of the two approaches would be welcome, I'm sure. Cut the original increment count by 1/2, and the value per increment by 1/3 of the original, and you've reached the same result in the end.

kono

Neiloch · 11-11-2014, 08:14 AM

If it remains this way I hope we see upgrades sooner rather than later. Its good 'progression' gear since it spreads out the upgrades and fights will naturally take longer. It would be disappointing to see on higher end gear when most of the xpac is on 'farm status' with the items not reaching their full potential during what become more or less burn fights.

11-05-2014, 09:26 PM	#2
Neiloch Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Bloodguts said: ↑ “They'll still be best in slot rings so everyone and their mothers will want the CB/POT and CB rings for their toons and disregard any other ring out there.” Sounds like uplifting stuff and others will be CLEARLY better for the person equipping it, so its gonna be harder for people to get on board with the group procs, imo.

11-05-2014, 09:43 PM	#4
Bloodguts Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2	Neiloch said: ↑ “Sounds like uplifting stuff and others will be CLEARLY better for the person equipping it, so its gonna be harder for people to get on board with the group procs, imo.” Everyone's going to wear Uplifting Earrings, Amplifying Wrists, the upgraded x2 charms and Practiced Rings. There is no other choice for a best in slot.

11-06-2014, 01:28 AM	#6
Salbain Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	“I would have preferred to see Practiced jewelry be support classes only, like Chanter/Bard/Healers, but this is good change as well i suppose.” Yes because further railroading the mentioned classes into taking specific items is a great idea. Finding quality utility classes is getting harder and harder and doing as you suggest will further reduce the pool. On a side note are we only to expect 3, 4 and 5 versions of existing items as the expansion goes on? Its getting a little old. Someone needs to turn off the loot bot at some point. I guess we shall see.

11-06-2014, 03:12 AM	#7
Silzin Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Xelgad said: ↑ “With the Altar of Malice expansion, we'll be reducing the effectiveness of the "Practiced" items (excluding Strike.) This adjustment is being done to put the Practiced Effects more in line with the other available effects. The new values should be on beta soon.” Is this going to include the Uplifting and Amplifying procs as well?

11-06-2014, 07:42 AM	#8
Nezette Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Salbain said: ↑ “Yes because further railroading the mentioned classes into taking specific items is a great idea. Finding quality utility classes is getting harder and harder and doing as you suggest will further reduce the pool.” Are you dumb? The practiced items are currently BiS for ALL classes (minus tanks, maybe). That's like saying, "woe is me, I'm being forced to fly first class while every one else is jammed away in the cargo hold..." Like, it really sucks gearing out a raid when everyone wants the same entire right side. Plus, there's a disparity in practiced procs between the groups because the dps groups get benefit from 6/6 while fighter groups get, at best, 5/6 2 of which on healers who are ridiculously slow at gaining increments. By limiting by classes, you get a better balance between groups and you can make more use of the loot table. (That said, this is less of an issue in AoM since types--practiced/focus/amplifying/uplifting-- are sorted by slots. But like, in ToV, uplifting ears generally rot in favor of practiced.) But yeah, mind is blown that you think utility classes would be like, "yeah, no, I don't want BiS gear... take it away... take it away..."

11-05-2014, 09:24 PM	#1
Bloodguts Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2	I would have preferred to see Practiced jewelry be support classes only, like Chanter/Bard/Healers, but this is good change as well i suppose. They'll still be best in slot rings so everyone and their mothers will want the CB/POT and CB rings for their toons and disregard any other ring out there.

11-05-2014, 09:36 PM	#3
Iseous Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Yeah, it's a little ridiculous how these can give more stats than an uplifting proc per person. They should give more stats overall to the group but uplifting procs should be better for a single person. And what about Amplifying Effects (stats based on how many other people have these) vs. Focused Effects (stats based on how long you have stood still)? For example, for the same tier of each effect, Amplifying gives 84 - 176% while Focused gives 48 - 120%. Considering you generally have to move at least a little bit, why would you use Focused Effects when a group using Amplifying Effects instead would probably be better than even the highest amount of Focused (even if you could stand still)?

11-05-2014, 09:59 PM	#5
Daray Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	I agree this needed to be done (as I have stated elsewhere). However, I'd much prefer if it was done in a way such that the maximum potential values granted were reduced, but that the practiced items reached this new maximum potential faster than it currently takes for them to max their counters. E.g. if trying to reduce their value by half, then cut the counters from 60 to 30 instead of reducing the 'per counter' attribute value by half.

11-06-2014, 08:14 AM	#9
Xelgad Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	With the Altar of Malice expansion, we'll be reducing the effectiveness of the "Practiced" items (excluding Strike.) This adjustment is being done to put the Practiced Effects more in line with the other available effects. The new values should be on beta soon.

11-06-2014, 08:18 AM	#10
Katanallama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Thank you! It was getting silly, tho I will forever cherish the time I got up to 800 wdb in raid And I do really mean it, these effects were silly on any fight over 3 minutes :3

11-06-2014, 11:19 AM	#11
Ebofu Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	It was posited that instead of realigning their value you simply limit the classes which can use them. So arguing that they are BiS so you should wear them is irrelevant because the alternative was they wouldn't be BiS. He was simply complaining because they are so obscenely better than any alternative, it would have further pigeon holed utility classes unfairly, in comparison to everyone else. Simply put, they desperately needed to be addressed. Whether they no longer stack, and its simply a shared buff with more items increasing proc rate, or reducing their values per increment is inconsequential. Only took them an entire expansion to realise.

11-06-2014, 12:09 PM	#12
Buffrat Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	The current values would be absolutely fine if they didn't stack per group member...

11-06-2014, 02:33 PM	#13
Marq New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Looks like the new values are basically 1/3 increment raise and 1/3 max amount, someone linked Legionnaires wrist and it was like .3 per increment and 18 max. Assuming they still stack tho? Would rather see old values and no stacking like Buffrat said...

11-06-2014, 04:48 PM	#14
wazul New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	agree with buffrat ! remove stack on praticed and restore old value. with tov and now with altar, many items in raid are must have for all roster : because stack effect. and many another drop are useless.... because all need same item for stack effect. we need farm 10 or 20 round same zone for the same item. less stack = different choice itemisation for players = less farm = more fun, better diversity for each

11-06-2014, 05:39 PM	#15
Daray Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Yeah, looks like the lot were cut to 1/3 effectiveness across the board (which is fair). However. Instead of cutting the per increment attribute value to 1/3 of the original, perhaps consider leaving the per increment value alone, and cutting the max increment counter from 60 down to 20. These things still take forever and a day to fully increment as it is.

11-06-2014, 06:51 PM	#16
Mogrim Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 1	Right - the change on beta, if it goes live, essentially makes all practiced items nearly worthless. Personally, I would've gone with 1/2 effectiveness across the board by doing max counter to 30 (like Daray suggested before, I believe)

11-06-2014, 09:59 PM	#17
Buffrat Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Makes practiced items worthless on sub-3 minute fights***

11-06-2014, 10:31 PM	#18
Bloodguts Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2	Mogrim said: ↑ “Right - the change on beta, if it goes live, essentially makes all practiced items nearly worthless. Personally, I would've gone with 1/2 effectiveness across the board by doing max counter to 30 (like Daray suggested before, I believe)” They're still best in slot on long fights. And on short fight i would probably still use them 'cuz why the **** not?

11-07-2014, 02:55 AM	#19
Hammdaddy Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Delete practiced items all together honestly, the fact that my parse goes up 60% based off of 4 items is ridiculous.

11-08-2014, 09:20 PM	#20
Hammdaddy Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Another thing after reviewing these is if you're going to make them worse, atleast make them not garbage. It takes too long to max these that no one will want to wear them, especially selfish utility.

11-10-2014, 07:34 PM	#21
Neiloch Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Daray said: ↑ “Instead of cutting the per increment attribute value to 1/3 of the original, perhaps consider leaving the per increment value alone, and cutting the max increment counter from 60 down to 20. These things still take forever and a day to fully increment as it is.” I would prefer this as well.

11-11-2014, 08:09 AM	#22
konofo Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Even a mix of the two approaches would be welcome, I'm sure. Cut the original increment count by 1/2, and the value per increment by 1/3 of the original, and you've reached the same result in the end. kono

11-11-2014, 08:14 AM	#23
Neiloch Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	If it remains this way I hope we see upgrades sooner rather than later. Its good 'progression' gear since it spreads out the upgrades and fights will naturally take longer. It would be disappointing to see on higher end gear when most of the xpac is on 'farm status' with the items not reaching their full potential during what become more or less burn fights.