Experimentation!

[Opeij]

First of all, i think experimentation is a REALLY cool system. It allows for players to make items unique, and to make tradeskill items actually pretty useful. HOWEVER, it's a very buggy system, which is to be expected! Here is a list of what I found in my couple of combines:

• In order to start the process, you have to hit the end button, then hit "Ok" to the message that pops up (A warning saying you will lose the item if you fail). What *should* happen is you select your options for experimentation, then hit a "Start" button, with the popup, leading to a new screen just like all other tradeskill combines.
• The abilities are all on separate cooldowns! They should be paired 1&4, 2&5, 3&6 on the same timers, just like all the other tradeskill abilities. Also, it appears that there are 6 different counters, instead of just three. This might be why the 6 abilities are on separate cooldowns, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to hit all 6 abilities in one round, so there's almost no point to this.
• Durability doesn't seem to increase! I hit all the durability abilities, and at best the durability stays where it was, it never goes back up!
• The progress/durability bar is in the middle of everything! as in, between the drop down bar of "Add an Effect" and "Boost Stat" It should either be on the bottom, or if the first problem was fixed, it would be in its own process, just like all other tradeskill combines!
• The "Boost Stat" drop down bar doesn't work! What I mean is that when I want to boost a stat, it says "not effective on this item" right next to the "[x stat] by 10.00%" This seems like one of the most useful part of experimentation! Once the proc has been added, and the piece has been decorated, you can't do anything to the item because of this! Only one proc is allowed, and only one decoration is allowed (both of these make sense) However, with 5 points in the prestige ability, I still have 3 more experimentation things to add on!
• All of these are with a Sumac Shortbow, a Swamp Ash Cudgel, and a Bubinga Cudgel, made with purified bubinga.
• Made an "imbued bubinga round shield". Couldn't experiment on it. Made a regular "bubinga round shield". Couldn't experiment on it. Both made with purified bubinga. Would be nice to experiment on all armor, weapons and jewelry. I don't think consumables, ammo, or house items would be good to experiment on.

Overall, I think this is a great system. The ability to add a proc, decorate weapons (with greater (handcrafted) and major (mastercrafted) essences) is great!

[Shotneedle]

I had no problem hitting all 6 buttons in one round. Also yeah, none of the reaction arts actually do anything (except counter reactions).

I personally think the system is pretty worthless. It's cool and all but limiting it to handcrafted/mastercrafted makes it do...nothing. Mastercrafted will still be replaced by easily obtainable heroic gear. Should let people experiment on tradeskill apprentice gear too, at the least. I'd really like to see it open up to all gear eventually.

Also I noticed that it says max experimentations 5, but it appears you can only choose one from each section (unless you're going to be able to choose multiple from stats).

[Opeij]

Lots of fixes to experimentation, can finally use the stat enhancement stuff. However, the stats don't actually increase. Or if they do, they don't show up on the item.

Also, when you go from experimentation to crafting, it shows all recipes, instead of just the recipes for the crafting station you are at. Not a huge deal, but kinda weird.

As Shot mentioned, it would be cool if experimentation could be used on all gear (maybe to a lesser degree, like 5% to stat increasing? The procs don't do too much, so I don't think that would be too much of an issue on any gear.)

[NiamiDenMother]

Post-patch:

• The crafting skills that populate the bar in experimentation don't seem to do what they say they do (progress boost, durability boost, etc.)
• Event is call "Experimenter's Insight", but buff received is called "Innovator's Insight"
• Innovator's Insight has a [BUG] message on mouseover (something about Experimentation not being a supported skill or something). It has a short enough duration, unlike other insight buffs, that I wasn't able to grab the exact message.
• You can imbue an experimented item (if it is a weapon, or chest/leg piece that can be imbued) and lose all the experimentation on the item - it might be good to have some warning to that effect?
• there was no visible increase in attack speed or crit chance when I successfully experimented on each of those abilities

For reference:

• 1st experiment adds "Experimented" prefix
• 2nd experiment changes prefix to "Prototypical"
• 3rd experiment changes prefix to "Innovative"
• 4th experiment changes prefix to "Ingenious"

[Torri]

Several things are diferent from the basic tradeskilling we've all come to know and sleep through.

My first time through I started getting worried about failing as the durability bar kept dropping further into the yellow, but I still suceeded with it being at what looked to be somewhere between 40-50%. Do you suceed just as long as any durability is left at all?

When in the process of the experimentation combine, I couldn't move or change my view to get a look at the numbers floating at each tick. As soon as the process finished I was able to scroll the view out and move.

Now that I do see the numbers, nothing is being added at all. All rounds were -10 durability/+50 progress(baseline), -50 durability (crit fail), or +100 progress (crit sucess). I have spent all my tradeskill AA and Prestiege. I spammed counters even when nothing came up to counter. No gains from using counters, no gains from tradeskill bonuses.

When I opened the experimentation tab to get started, I choose some Ry'Gorr bracers I'd made and have since replaced. After experimenting on them four times I thought for a moment because I couldn't for the life of me remember them being in my bags. I went to the bank, and saw that the other Ry'Gorr piece I had to experiment on was in slot 1 of my bank. I went back to the tradeskill area and proceeded to experiment on it. When the combine completed , the piece was removed from the bank and in my bags.

I was surprised the Ry'Gorr pieces were available to experiment on. I'll guess that isn't intended since none of my crafted TSO void shard armor or SF Mark armor was eligable for experimentation.

When doing a standard combine, the counters automatically default to keys 1-6. That did  not happen when doing experimentation, I had to mouse click the counters. Not a game breaking thing, but an annoyance, at least for me.

[Arweena69]

So finally got a TSer high enough to play with this some and it does seem nice BUT why can I only use it on the couple of handcrafted items in my inventory?

What are the limits on items that can be experimented on?

Also it does look like the only good from the reactions is to counter stuff and they don't actually do anything benefital, they just prevent a massive negative.

Edit:  Another note - Not exactly intuitive on how to begin experimentation on an item when you first get the skill.

[Arweena69]

So I just got Experimenters insight.  I wasn't able to examine the buff it gave but it appears to be bugged.  the 1st line hd some type of an error message and the buff only lasted like 15 seconds, not even enough time for the experimentation to finish totally.

Also I had set it to boost the STR of the item and what I got back had both STR and STA boosted, maybe from getting the insight and correcting properly?

[Omougi]

A few changes are coming to experimentation in the next build or the one immediately after that.

Counters will now provide a benefit to being used, even when they are not countering anything.

Due to the above, we had to rebalance and tighten up the tuning on experimentation a bit.  Instead of just relying on luck, it will be mechanical skill of balancing your reaction art use and still a bit of luck.

Let us know what you think about the new tweaks!

[NiamiDenMother]

NiamiDenMother wrote:

For reference:

• 1st experiment adds "Experimented" prefix
• 2nd experiment changes prefix to "Prototypical"
• 3rd experiment changes prefix to "Innovative"
• 4th experiment changes prefix to "Ingenious"

The 5th, and final possible, experiment changes the prefix to "Visionary"

[NiamiDenMother]

When you link an experimented item in chat, you see the experimented version, others see the original non-experimented version.

[feldon30]

NiamiDenMother wrote:

When you link an experimented item in chat, you see the experimented version, others see the original non-experimented version.

Are experimented upon items tradeable? If yes, then that sounds like a bug. If no, then it's like reforging.

[Arweena69]

Since you can only experiment on Crafted items yes all Experimented on items are tradeable.

Just did 4 rounds of Experimentation on my Mace of Radiant Divinity

  1x Wis

  1x Sta

  1x Pot

  1x CB

Total Stat increase to the item 17 Wis, 17 Sta, 1% Pot, 1% CB.  Still deciding what to do for #5.

I did get the Innovator's Insight's buff again and it's got a note about a non-practiced skill, then says something about increasing success chance, durability gain and prog gain but doesn't actually sem to do anything.

It also appears that the reactions still aren't working correctly.

[Omougi]

feldon30 wrote:

NiamiDenMother wrote:

When you link an experimented item in chat, you see the experimented version, others see the original non-experimented version.

Are experimented upon items tradeable? If yes, then that sounds like a bug. If no, then it's like reforging.

Yep, bugged!  We're working on a fix.  

[Arweena69]

Ok so got some of the raid quality mats over to Beta as well as a couple of the premade items and I'm playing with the experimentation on them.  One question for you, are the results supposed to be predictable?  I know a sample source of like 3 items isn't much but so far I've gotten varried results but it seems to be based on how much there is left in the top (durability bar) when the combine completes.

Any information on if this is intentional would be appriciated, if you need more informaton from me Omougi just PM me or send me a tell on Beta or live.

Beta toons - Arweena or Morganae

Oasis toon - Arweena typically

[NiamiDenMother]

Arweena@Unrest_old wrote:

Ok so got some of the raid quality mats over to Beta as well as a couple of the premade items and I'm playing with the experimentation on them.  One question for you, are the results supposed to be predictable?  I know a sample source of like 3 items isn't much but so far I've gotten varried results but it seems to be based on how much there is left in the top (durability bar) when the combine completes.

Arweena - the results should be extremely predictable, if you look at the dropdowns before starting the experimentation process.  

For the middle dropdown, it gives you options based on the existing stats on the items, then offers to add 10% to one of the items listed in the dropdown.  If your next experiment on the item is on the same stat, it drops to a 5% increase, but if you experiment on something else, you should get the option for a 10% boost.  If you persist in doing a third experiment on the same stat, you will only get a 2.5% increase, and a 4th would be 1% increase - so it is better to spread out what you're experimenting on, and get 10% boosts on several things, than to focus on a single stat.

The durability bar shouldn't impact what stats you end up with, only that you end up with *something*.  Run out of durability before the progress bar has completed and you lose the item totally.

I'll have more on all of this when I put up my crafting preview, but hopefully this will help make some sense out of your results.

~Mum

[Arweena69]

NiamiDenMother wrote:

Arweena@Unrest_old wrote:

Ok so got some of the raid quality mats over to Beta as well as a couple of the premade items and I'm playing with the experimentation on them.  One question for you, are the results supposed to be predictable?  I know a sample source of like 3 items isn't much but so far I've gotten varried results but it seems to be based on how much there is left in the top (durability bar) when the combine completes.

Arweena - the results should be extremely predictable, if you look at the dropdowns before starting the experimentation process.  

For the middle dropdown, it gives you options based on the existing stats on the items, then offers to add 10% to one of the items listed in the dropdown.  If your next experiment on the item is on the same stat, it drops to a 5% increase, but if you experiment on something else, you should get the option for a 10% boost.  If you persist in doing a third experiment on the same stat, you will only get a 2.5% increase, and a 4th would be 1% increase - so it is better to spread out what you're experimenting on, and get 10% boosts on several things, than to focus on a single stat.

The durability bar shouldn't impact what stats you end up with, only that you end up with *something*.  Run out of durability before the progress bar has completed and you lose the item totally.

I'll have more on all of this when I put up my crafting preview, but hopefully this will help make some sense out of your results.

~Mum

That's what I thought based on the interface, so it seems like it's still bugged.  Some times I'll get more than one stat increased.  Unfortunately the process of getting the mats to make the raid quality TS items on beta is VERY tedious for me so unless Omougi is willing to help me out and send me a stack or so of each and maybe finish out the research on the ones I don't have I'm not sure I'll be able to test all the combinations to find the ones that are still bugged

Having to copy my toon 3x per item I want to craft kinda sucks.

[Arweena69]

So another tiny little bug here Omougi.  When you Experiment on a raid crafted item that you made using a refined rare it pops up the window for the previous item having used the NON-refined rare.  That's why I was SO confused when I did it earler.

[Omougi]

Arweena@Unrest_old wrote:

So another tiny little bug here Omougi.  When you Experiment on a raid crafted item that you made using a refined rare it pops up the window for the previous item having used the NON-refined rare.  That's why I was SO confused when I did it earler.

Yep!  Talked this over with Terrogaunt and we have a nice solution coming that will help you determine whether you have a refined or a normal rare selected.  

[Torri]

So I assume that the raid crafted item has to have been made by you in order to experiment on? I do not have the option to experiment on the Priest ear that my Sage made for me.

[Arweena69]

Has the item been reforged? If so un-reforge it.  I have been able to experiment on items made by my other toons with no problems.

[Whilhelmina]

Omougi wrote:

Arweena@Unrest_old wrote:

So another tiny little bug here Omougi.  When you Experiment on a raid crafted item that you made using a refined rare it pops up the window for the previous item having used the NON-refined rare.  That's why I was SO confused when I did it earler.

Yep!  Talked this over with Terrogaunt and we have a nice solution coming that will help you determine whether you have a refined or a normal rare selected.  

Had the same kind of problem when trying to imbue a refined item.

I imbued an "Augmented Whip (refined)" and ended up with a not-refined Augmented Whip

[Torri]

Thanks, the restoring the reforging tip did the trick.

Other things that fall in the same catagory that I may have missed being stated elsewhere, the item you want to experiment on cannot be equipped and needs to be 100%.

As far as experimenting post patch goes...

Maybe my expectations are off. I keep thinking rounds will work the same way basic crafting ones do. Correctly countering Innovator's Insight should be giving a massive boost to both durability and progress, not a -80 durability/+40 progress round that I just experienced. Rounds are getting the small bonuses from using reacting arts, but I am not seeing the numbers like in a normal crafting combine. My numbers for a crit success on combines on Live are roughly -14 durability/+238 progress. I have seen nothing close come while experimenting in beta. If the mechanics are different I can accept that, but without knowing they are I have to assume this is bugged still

[Whilhelmina]

Omougi wrote:

A few changes are coming to experimentation in the next build or the one immediately after that.

Counters will now provide a benefit to being used, even when they are not countering anything.

Due to the above, we had to rebalance and tighten up the tuning on experimentation a bit.  Instead of just relying on luck, it will be mechanical skill of balancing your reaction art use and still a bit of luck.

Let us know what you think about the new tweaks!

Counters do not seem to do anything or do next to nothing. I don't see a real variation between using nothing and uing counters.

While experimenting, I couldn't right-click to examine the icons and see what they did nor enable tooltips. I couldn't either open my knowledge book. In short, I was stuck in place until the "craft" was finished and couldn't get any kind of info on the skills I was trying to use.

Having 6 skills with different icons is highly disturbing.

I couldn't move the skills around and have no clue as to how they auto-populate (I don't use the default order)

Inovator's Insight doesn't do anything.

[Arweena69]

Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:

Omougi wrote:

A few changes are coming to experimentation in the next build or the one immediately after that.

Counters will now provide a benefit to being used, even when they are not countering anything.

Due to the above, we had to rebalance and tighten up the tuning on experimentation a bit.  Instead of just relying on luck, it will be mechanical skill of balancing your reaction art use and still a bit of luck.

Let us know what you think about the new tweaks!

Counters do not seem to do anything or do next to nothing. I don't see a real variation between using nothing and uing counters.

While experimenting, I couldn't right-click to examine the icons and see what they did nor enable tooltips. I couldn't either open my knowledge book. In short, I was stuck in place until the "craft" was finished and couldn't get any kind of info on the skills I was trying to use.

Having 6 skills with different icons is highly disturbing.

I couldn't move the skills around and have no clue as to how they auto-populate (I don't use the default order)

Inovator's Insight doesn't do anything.

Counter do seem to do next to nothing.  Inovator's Insight is like 1% to success and durability for 30 sec which is really not noticable.  if you have your char window open before you start the craft you can see the numbers change but the changes on each round don't seem to match in any way shape or form what you see in the window.

[Whilhelmina]

I checked some more.

After looking at the skills, I decided to click the 2 upping durability by 10 and 10% each round. When tehre was no event to counter nor critical successes/failures nor failures, I always only got +1 durability in the round and +58 or so in progress.

I checked without hitting everything and regular "gain" is "-10 durability +58 progress", -> -10 +10 +10% of 10 = 11 so yes, the skills do work but do next to nothing. Max durability gain was +17 on a critical success countering something durability related.

Ok, I can understand the recipes being hard, but it's still way more dependent on pure luck. If we have too many critical failures, there's no way to save a recipe, even mashing the arts in the right way. A single "failure" (-38 durability) would need 38 ticks without failure to be worked back. It's too tight.

Once you're crafting, there's no way to :

• move your window (look up, look down, move...)
• open any window (knowledge book, persona, bags, maps...)
• right-click to enable or disable tooltips. 
• chat

Note: the tooltips ARE working. You just have to enable them while crafting something else for them to work

[Whilhelmina]

Ok...

Another problem:

Innovator's Insight don't do anything visible... and worse, they don't prevent failure. I don't count the times where I got a failure after countering an insight... And worst, I just FAILED the 5th experimenting on an item when my last Innovator's Insight gave me a critical failure (successfully contered)... That one was hard to stomach!

Please, drop the temp buffs that don't give anything and change them with a +50 or +100 durability on next tick. That would be usefull (and you might not need to change the arts to be a tad more effective)

[Omougi]

Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:

Omougi wrote:

Arweena@Unrest_old wrote:

So another tiny little bug here Omougi.  When you Experiment on a raid crafted item that you made using a refined rare it pops up the window for the previous item having used the NON-refined rare.  That's why I was SO confused when I did it earler.

Yep!  Talked this over with Terrogaunt and we have a nice solution coming that will help you determine whether you have a refined or a normal rare selected.  

Had the same kind of problem when trying to imbue a refined item.

I imbued an "Augmented Whip (refined)" and ended up with a not-refined Augmented Whip

We are getting this addressed as I type this.  For now, you will lose your refining and experimentation data when imbuing an item.  We will hopefully have a fix out to you all soon.

[Torri]

One more thing that is not working like basic crafting. I used a potion of Progress (+200 progress every round for 10 minutes) and got no benefit from it at all. Never had a progress round greater than 148