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Old 08-20-2012, 01:01 AM   #1
Mixxit
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Here is just about everything I can find on the dead hills put into a a chronological order that seems to make sense surrounding this mysterious place and put into a sort of story format (which I used for in game RP surrounding Kyle's reappearance)

The Dead Hills

The Previous God of Health (Anashti'Sul) and the Previous God of Disease (Xul'Varien)

Many ages ago the two gods of life and disease battled, for all that Anashti'Sul could save, poison and decay would spread the lands and the things that were sustained in life would soon return to the dust. Anashti'Sul in her arrogance attempted to find a permanent solution to this and granted the gift of undeath so that no life would ever be lost. The Pantheon were outraged by the creation of undead and banished her forever to the Void where she would remain until the Age of Destiny. It is not known how Xul'Varien came to depart Norrath but it must have been around this time as soon to follow, two new Gods would be born to replace them.

The Xulous and the old gods of Health and Disease

It is known that the Xulous were also present in the region in the south western area of Tunaria that we know know as the Dead Hills. In ages past they were partly responsible for the very creation of a creature known as Bertoxxulous through a strange priest named Ultor. The Xulous were renowned dragon hunters and their empire spread wide across Norrath. It was not till the arrival of a strange monolith in the center of one of their towns would the Xulous be challenged and despite King Adan's greatest advisors none could answer the riddle of this unusual monolith. One day a priest named Ultor Szanvon would arrive proclaiming he knew the secrets of the obelisk and that it was their ancestors where the answers lay. He took the King Adan to their great many tombs and claiming that the spirits of the fallen regents would be offended at being disturbed by anyone other than nobility and they opened the great sealed doors of the Crypts of Kings Rest. Ultor then betrayed King Adan and sacrificed him over the corpses of his forefathers and out of this was born Bertoxxulous, the new God of Disease who bound him and the previous kings to his service. The risen undead kings rose armies of the dead from the necropolis of Lxanvon and spread across the lands ravaging all in their path, and leaving only death and destruction in their wake. Those who were not destroyed by the weapons of the undead armies were killed slowly by a deadly plague, carried by the risen kings, and spread like wildfire amidst the Xulous. Their entire race succumbed to the pestilence and the Xulous were no more. Bertoxxulous, pleased and swollen with pride by his genocidal accomplishment called his minions back to the necropolis that had served as their resting place for so many years. The risen Xulous kings gathered in the bowels of their crypts as a great mist enveloped Lxanvon. The ancient dragons watched from afar as the mists cleared, revealing only a barren and broken landscape where the necropolis had once lied.

The Dead Hills

In the far south and westerly reaches of Old Tunaria, over the formidable mountains that once marked the boundary to the Great Unknown stretches a land of bleak, dreary, grey waste. Little seems to grow here, for plant life must withstand a constant assault of ash and cinders from the down wind blow of not so distant volcanism. Verily, the landscape seems to have the very life sucked from it. And while the desolate waste appears lifeless, many of the inhabitants most certainly are! Tucked in the corner of this bare, blasted land is a crumbling city, with a remarkable tower jutting up through the ruin, emanating a sickly, malevolent green glow from its summit. Within this city, the restless dead lumber and roam, pulled forth from beyond the grave to serve the masters of this city. Whispers, tales and rumors name these ruins as the Tomb City of Envar and home to the immortal race of the Jalraeth, a malign group of creatures absorbed with the death and dying of the mortals they encounter, or enticing dead souls to their dilapidated city to join in forced servitude. Outside the ranks of the darkest practitioners of necromancy, little beyond what is stated above is known about the Jalraeth race or their dark city. Perhaps more will be known now that the Frontier beyond the encircling Rathe Mountains has seen an increased rise in hardy (or perhaps foolhardy) adventurers. Some that have been known to travel here including Kyle Bayle and famous adventurer, Edril the Lancer.

Deep within this land lays the Tomb City of Envar a diseased and infested library for the Jal'Raeth of old surrounded by 4 libraries and a great spire that reaches up from it's center. Known inhabitants of this cursed city include Tal'Thir, High Priest Vorlin and the The Prophet Envar. Even apart from these threats the annointed mummies, accursed zombies and maggots here are known to be a great danger to anyone that approaches and their diseases being only curable by something known as the Envaric Salve. Few have ventured here and returned to tell the tale although some that have speak of a great translocation spell known as Astral Displacement that can be found in the walls of the ancient tomb city.

The Jal'Raeth and Rodcet Nife

It is spoken of that the Jal'Raeth were obsessed with death because they could not die and that one of the Jal'Raeth were unlike his kin and was known as Rodcet Nife. Instead of spreading disease and undeath he instead healed and cured those around him. Due to the banishment of the goddesss of health Anashti'Sul for her gift of undeath Rodcet was eventually ascended to the role of God of Health.

It is not known for how long Rodcet fought the Xulous disease that had spread across the land but it is written that he descended on Qeynos in a great spherical vessel many years later demanding information on if the Xulous infection had reached their land. Although he did not stay long, his vessel still remains in North Qeynos where it has stood even to this day and the priests of life make their home.

The Citadel of Tal'Thex/The Pagoda of Tal'Thex

The fortress of Tal’Thex is a place that is rarely spoken of and even when the words are heard it is often within the clandestine mage towers of Norrath. There are some Koada’Dal that know more about the hidden fortress, but they are few and far between and not easily persuaded to speak of such Elddar secrets. Such tight lips can only be pried open with fugitive trinkets. It was constructed long after the lands of the dead hills were barren and devoid of life.

The living statues that we see throughout the Age of Destiny, such as the titanic sentries of New Tunaria, are constructs created through ancient Elddar techniques. Those arcane methods were first developed to create the massive Guardians of Tal’Thex. Over the ages, the knowledge used to create the giant constructs has made its way into the libraries of some of the greater mages and scholars of Norrath. The library of Kaesora may have been the home to one of those ancient scrolls. Venril or his minions must have found a way to reproduce the Elddar rituals that gave life to such impressive constructs.

Titanic constructs are not the only present day gifts that are associated with Tal’Thex. There are a few others making their way around Norrath. Unfortunately, these other secrets were never meant to escape the vaults of Tal’Thex.

The Citadel of Tal'Thex is located not far out of the water from the Castle Envar. The Tal'Thex were a long dead elven empire that were led by Lord Valkanith centuries ago which few can remember. There is little to no information on Tal'Thex other than various artifacts such a the Tal'Thex Diamond which was once found in the hands of House N'Ryt in the legandary towers of Syncamore Joy's Rest. The island now is full of undead Tal'Thex soldiers, knights and sorcerers who have toiled tirelessly for their now undead leader Lord Valkanith. Brave adventurers who travelled there over 1000 years ago speak of mythical treasures they found among the dead including the legendary Bone Wing Sentinel (Known to summon a bone wing familiar), Crown of Tal'Thex (known for it's regenerative magic), Phylactery of Valkanith (This amulet contained a significant portion of the life of Lord Valkanith, the former ruler of the Tal'thex) , Positronian Energy Shield (A magical shield of positive energy created by the tal'thex elves. Undead are harmed by contact with positive energies), Positronian Mace (This mace had been imbued long ago with vast amounts of positive energy by the tal'thex elves. It causes great harm to undead) and the Rune of Defilement (invokes energies from your surroundings and absorbs them into your body)

Mal'Ahkt

Another worthy mention is a strange book located in the hands of a rare trinklet dealer that also speaks of the Dead Hills in a short tale regarding a Dal named Mal'Ahkt in the times when Takish'Hiz still stood. Mal'Ahkt was plagued with curiosity on the nature of benevolence and eventually became intruiged by the darker arts. He had heared of elven vaults of such things where the contents were hidden away for the good of all that breath and this place was the Pagoda of Tal'Thex. It is known at the Pagoda was constructed when the land was still barren of life. Mal’Ahkt had learned of the Pagoda of Tal’Thex from a dying old man, dying from the clutches of Mal’Ahkt that were wrapped around his wrinkled neck. He learned from the old man, Haldinous that no living creature could cross the Dead Hills, only creatures of Clay. He explained how he had used the Clay of Cosgrove to create a behemoth that could cross the sands and so Mal'Ahkt began work on his own clay form. It was than they he realised he had been tricked by the old man, who was never living at all, he killed the real body of Mal'Ahkt and left him forever trapped within inferior clay. Haldinous was as much a Dal as any, swearing allegiance to their causes such as the keeping of the secret of the Pagoda of Tal’Thex. Mal’Ahkt was fooled into a near immobile body of inferior clay. Haldinous then began work on his final work with the now helpless soul of Mal’Ahkt. Haldinous formed a final Guardian construct for the Elddar Empire, one to wage war against undead empires, one that needed a dab of dark arts. And so the sentience of Mal’Ahkt was painfully removed and all his great power used to form the construct defender called the Guardian of Nief. Mal’Ahkt was foolish to betray his people and paid his full price. His soul is now in a void of oblivion and his powers within the guardian. Mal’Ahkt is no more

Kyle Antihilus Bayle

Antonius Bayle III grew up during the beginning of this Age of Turmoil. During his childhood, he witnessed the construction of the heretic city of Paineel and saw Sir Lucan take control of the city of Freeport. When he came to power as ruler of Qeynos at the age of 26, he did his best to remain neutral and, as such, was named “The Great Diplomat.” Antonius Bayle III, for reasons unknown, chose to break tradition and name his first son Kyle rather than Antonius. In an attempt to establish a new seat of power in Antonica and extend his lands southward, Antonius III charged his eldest son Kyle with the expansion. Kyle left with a cadre of men to find a suitable location and to begin building.

A great deal of time passed without hearing any word or report of progress on this project. Antonius Bayle III sent a series of scouts to investigate but none ever returned. Kyle, his men and those sent to investigate were never heard from again. Roughly 25 years after the mysterious disappearance of Kyle, Antonius Bayle III had another son. This one he chose to name Antonius and he became Antonius Bayle IV. At the age of 24, Antonius Bayle IV was installed as the ruler of Qeynos, which he remains to this day.

Antonius IV never knew Kyle. All he knows of his older brother is what was learned through stories told by his elders. Though he does occasionally wonder about what happened to him, he is too focused and dedicated to his duties as ruler to consider spending the time and resources that would be needed to search for the answers. This is a purely personal concern and he would not feel right about using city resources for such a selfish, wistful and sentimental reason. And thus, he seldom, if ever, discusses the matter.

It is spoken of that the real reason Antonius Bayle the III sent his son far to the south to expand Qeynos was due to an ancient curse on the family of Bayle where there the first born could never be left to rule else a great chalamaty would befall the kingdom.

And so, it is assumed that Kyle did lose his life in the land of the Dead Hills shortly after founding new Qeynos. 

It was not till the Age of Destiny that Kyle would once again rear his head during the search for the Qeynos Claymore by Murrah Shar. Within the Sanctum of the Scaleborn Kyle Bayle's soul had been trapped within Droag named Exarch Bylze (who had trapped several other souls inside him also). Kyle tricked us into gathering him a suit of armour and then enchanting it so his spirit could be attached to the object and he could be freed and aid us with the Qeynos Claymore. Sadly Kyle escaped following the release of his soul and did not return till much later.

Kyle had found a way to possess Murrah Shar and kidnap Queen Antonia Bayle and on discovering this he revealed the following to us:

'I am Kyle Antihilus Bayle, true firstborn of Antonius Bayle III and rightful heir to the throne of Qeynos! Banished from my homeland, I founded a new kingdom south of the Rathe Mountains, a kingdom that was cursed to fall. I perished along with all my subjects, but even death was not the end of my curse. My tormented soul was wrenched from the ethernere in a blasphemous droag ritual, and consumed by one of their defiled shades (Exarch Bylze). I was annihilated, a fate worse than death. But I came to be again. From the deepest vortex of oblivion, a voice spoke my name, the voice of my Master. He called me back into existence and showed me my true purpose. The last shred of my soul awoke within the shade of Bylze that had comsumed me. I was ruined and pitiful, but possessed a new will far greater than a droag’s petty spirit. In the end, I consumed him, and eventually tricked a foolish band of adventurers into freeing me. I was only a matter of time before I found my way into your friend’s dreams (Murrah Shar), ate his soul and took his body. It was destiny.'

The Master Kyle Bayle speaks of is Theer, the God of Balance who would seek to recover his two weapons the Qeynos Claymore and Soulfire. The Shadowed Men who had been working in unison with Theer and Anashti'Sul who were banished to the Void by the Pantheon and these shadowed henchmen, through anchors to Norrath from the Void seeked endlessly for those with knowledge of the weapons as can beseen in the documents recovered from the anchors:

'In case of an emergency disembarkment or the eventual final fade phase, please be sure to protect and secure this list of particular knowledge vessels (Kyle Bayle and others), as they are vital to our continued research'

Queen Antonia Bayle says, "You'll never find it! The followers of the Awakened stole it from my palace and then the Order of Marr stole it back from them. Even I don't know where it is now!"

*corrected* Kyle then succeeded in locating the Qeynos Claymore in the vaults of Qeynos which had been placed there by the Order of Marr for safe keeping and delivered it to theer. 

Once again Kyle has now returned to our Kingdom, attempting to usurp the throne from Queen Antonia Bayle and finding a new host for his body. Though even all these attempts he has resulted in failure. Now we wonder if he is to return with his armies from the Dead Hills, an exceptionally dangerous place that few have seen.

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Old 08-21-2012, 05:37 AM   #2
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It is a well told story. I think certain portions of it may be inaccurate. Placing the Xulous on Norrath for one thing. I believe that particular story comes from one of the many lore books introduced from the Obelisk of Lost Souls. That particular series of books allude to the events happening on other worlds that are connected as void anchors. I believe one of the listed anchors is Xulous.

I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?).

Also amongst the stories from the Obelisk of Lost Souls are possible origin stories for Rodcet and Bertoxxulous. Both dieties are rumored (even in EQ1 before EQ2's launch) to not originate on Norrath.

Kyle Bayle *succeeded* in stealing the Qeynos Claymoor from the vault under the monument and delivered it to Theer. That is why Theer had the weapon during the Sentinel's Fate raid series, just as Soulfire (and Lucan D'Leer) were stolen from Freeport at the same time. The Order of Marr had returned the Claymoor to Qeynos for safe keeping.

What Kyle received in return is still a mystery.

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Old 08-21-2012, 06:29 AM   #3
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Meirril wrote:

I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?)..

It's from the Anashti Sul's deity questline. When you bring her back to Norrath, she mentions that her old foe (Xul'Varien)  is gone and replaced by Bertoxx.

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Old 08-21-2012, 06:35 AM   #4
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Meirril wrote:

I think certain portions of it may be inaccurate. Placing the Xulous on Norrath for one thing.

Hi, I can confirm they were on old Antonica with a lore quote which can be found archived on the official everquest website here: http://www.everquest.com/news/artic...032008&id=50865

And the quote in particular is 'The crypt was originally built upon Antonica in an age long past to house the dead kings of a long dead ancient race.'

Also a second quote confirms in the document The Necropolis of Lxanvon Volume found on the collectable quest in EQ2

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necro..._I_(House_Item)

The quote is 'The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.'

Meirril wrote:

I'd like to know where you found info on Xul'Varien, especially information on him being a diety and banished/destroyed during an unknown period of Norrath (possibly during the lost age?).

The line for Xul'Varien can be found from The Avatar of the Forgotten during the diety quest and quote is:

Avatar of the Forgotten says to you, “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”

Meirril wrote:

Kyle Bayle *succeeded* in stealing the Qeynos Claymoor from the vault under the monument and delivered it to Theer. That is why Theer had the weapon during the Sentinel's Fate raid series, just as Soulfire (and Lucan D'Leer) were stolen from Freeport at the same time. The Order of Marr had returned the Claymoor to Qeynos for safe keeping.

Thanks, it has been some time since I did the event and my memory was hazy!

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Old 08-21-2012, 06:42 PM   #5
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the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:20 PM   #6
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Hey I can only answer a couple of these based on the above i am not sure about the theer event i never did the raid sadly

ratbast wrote:

im guessing they were creation of xul'varien

It might have been the original creator as we don't know but i doubt it because they didn't seem to get involved with disease and decay magic till after bertoxxulous corrupted them 

They seem more like a normal humanoid style race that were known to fight dragons until bertoxxulous was born and it all went to hell

ratbast wrote:

reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise

You can see their home which was transcended to the plane of disease by going to the Crypt of Decay in EQ1 here are some screenies, the kings are there etc too

ratbast wrote:

who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter.

Ultor was a High Priest and was the one that created Bertoxxulous - I am assuming he was a High Priest of Xul'Varien since there was no bertoxxulous yet

After creating Bertoxxulous and then the xulous becoming corrupted and spreading the infection across norrath they were transcended with Lxanvon to the Plane of Disease 

Ultor is also there in the Crypt of Decay to this day on EQ1

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Old 08-22-2012, 09:18 PM   #7
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for me their names are too close for coincidence. xulous/xul'varien. seems implausible he/she wasnt their creator. but thats just me. since they worshipped their ancestors i give them a pass for being created by 'unknown' god in necropolis narrative. out of curiousity, what expac was ultor put in eq1 as a mob? is his existence in pod eq2 cannon? i did a pod raid once, i wish i had paid more attention now. i just remember running over nasty land into a hole(tomb?) and then fighting bertoxulous and minions. i think ultor is my favorite character in all of eq2. he is subversive and uses corrupting magic and rises to greatness. and his effect was enormous. from his brand of magic to his politican machinations, he is a rockstar. i think he was either a member of xulous race, or he was using the obelisks to planet-jump before existence of void ppls (and snuck into xulous community when obelisks appeared in remembrances-berrox). anyway, his knowledge of obelisks seemed to help him gain good graces of the king.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #8
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ratbast wrote:

for me their names are too close for coincidence. xulous/xul'varien. seems implausible he/she wasnt their creator. but thats just me. since they worshipped their ancestors i give them a pass for being created by 'unknown' god in necropolis narrative. out of curiousity, what expac was ultor put in eq1 as a mob? is his existence in pod eq2 cannon? i did a pod raid once, i wish i had paid more attention now. i just remember running over nasty land into a hole(tomb?) and then fighting bertoxulous and minions. i think ultor is my favorite character in all of eq2. he is subversive and uses corrupting magic and rises to greatness. and his effect was enormous. from his brand of magic to his politican machinations, he is a rockstar. i think he was either a member of xulous race, or he was using the obelisks to planet-jump before existence of void ppls (and snuck into xulous community when obelisks appeared in remembrances-berrox). anyway, his knowledge of obelisks seemed to help him gain good graces of the king.

Plane of Disease, well, rather, the Crypt of Bertoxxulous, part of the Planes of Power expansion pack, which is official canon to EQ2.

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:14 PM   #9
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Ultor is also canon yep as can be seen in the (slightly different but very similar) version of Necropolis of Lxanvon found in the Forbidden City/CityoftheNayad

Text proof is here: http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Necro...II_(House_Item)

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Old 08-22-2012, 11:40 PM   #10
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sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:59 PM   #11
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because ultor was in the crypt of decay in the eq1 planes of power expansion I would say so - but I am not sure if there will be a shard of disease/shard of decay yet

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Old 08-23-2012, 07:30 AM   #12
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ratbast wrote:

sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?

There's no clear answer (yet).

Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)

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Old 08-23-2012, 08:54 AM   #13
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Ragnaphore wrote:

ratbast wrote:

sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?

There's no clear answer (yet).

Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)

Remember that time was reversed by Druzzil Ro to just before we invaded the Planes of Power so we haven't defeated him in this timeline

But i am not sure what has happened to the Plane of Disease, it probably collapsed like the other planes and then a shard was created on Bertoxxulous's return - maybe ultor and the crypt is in it i am not sure

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Old 08-23-2012, 10:57 AM   #14
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ratbast wrote:

the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.

Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.

Kyle didn't stick around Theer or the Shadowmen after he delivered the Claymoor. If he was expecting to be raised to deity status or a major promotion in Theer's ranks he'd still be with them when we come knocking. Whatever Kyle was after he traded and left. I'm suspecting it was to get free of Theer, or maybe to get his old body back.

The only thing that Kyle has talked about for 2 live events now is gaining the throne of Qeynos and assuming his "rightful" place as King. I seriously don't know how that gets interpreted to be a run for godhood. If any NPC wanted that they should try to lure Zeb to a bar and get him really, really drunk.

Also Varsoon wasn't diseased. He was trapped by the Shadowmen and forced to server Theer. A fragment of his being was (is) trying to obtain a new body and live again. Much like Ricantus Everling is fragmented all over the place due to the Void influence his contact lead to.

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Old 08-23-2012, 05:40 PM   #15
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Meirril wrote:

ratbast wrote:

the person who destroyed xul'varien gave kyle bayle a promise? certainly sounds reasonable that kyle would expect enshrinement in the pantheon as reward. i would think theer would make oaths of revenge while in the void. my guess would be kyle wants theer to get his twins back so he can clear out some room for kyles deification. which plane of influence would he ask theer to clear? would probably be shaped by whatever happened in new qeynos. i like the green hill icon as xul'varien (sf theer raid encounter). green for disease, hill for location of xulous. which effect is that btw? it would be cool if it was something relating to xulous abilities (im guessing they were creation of xul'varien). ancestor ghosts with explosions reminds me of the theer copy add. especially since theer is dragonesque. dragon remains being the building blocks of their society/cities. ancestor ghosts doing rituals on dragon corpses, then the ancestor ghosts run around spreading genocidal pestilence. xulous magic would make a siege all the more fearsome for ancient dragons attacking them. and if dragons die they just make fortifications stronger. reminds me of the birth chambers of "Aliens" movie. incapacitated humans sewn into walls, birthing more monstrosities thru their demise. welcome to what war against xulous means. how nasty for dragons. id love to see kyle reawaken this gruesome scene/sorcery. a different kind of necromancy. not awakening dead, just using corpses as power source. plus enslaving the disembodied. corpse fuel, ghost servants. harnessing both sides of the soul duality. necropolis of Lxanvon is so fitting, ESPECIALLY if Lxanvon was a big ol' dragon whose corpse started the settlement. another dragon of that age was named Ulvaxazoviak. weird names. so theer tells kyle how bert used genocide magic to destroy xulous. kyle prepares rituals to destroy all humans, prepares theer to kill bertoxulous. who was ultor and what happened to him? was that the mortal bertoxulous before ascension, or was he just a worshipper? he was one sneaky plotter. and then varsoon, when he first became immortal lived in diseased immortality. xulous were immortal and were created by god of disease. wasnt varsoon tinkering around southern antonica? he must have bought a race change potion off the marketplace with station cash after he discovered the xulous story.

Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.

Kyle didn't stick around Theer or the Shadowmen after he delivered the Claymoor. If he was expecting to be raised to deity status or a major promotion in Theer's ranks he'd still be with them when we come knocking. Whatever Kyle was after he traded and left. I'm suspecting it was to get free of Theer, or maybe to get his old body back.

The only thing that Kyle has talked about for 2 live events now is gaining the throne of Qeynos and assuming his "rightful" place as King. I seriously don't know how that gets interpreted to be a run for godhood. If any NPC wanted that they should try to lure Zeb to a bar and get him really, really drunk.

Also Varsoon wasn't diseased. He was trapped by the Shadowmen and forced to server Theer. A fragment of his being was (is) trying to obtain a new body and live again. Much like Ricantus Everling is fragmented all over the place due to the Void influence his contact lead to.

we certainly do disagree over many points. as for varsoon, you might want to read the RoV quest reward books. they talk about his diseased immortality, along with a host of living-in-agony human experiments lining his walls ("Aliens" motif again).

i will concede the timeline is inconsistent(if you take deities as incapable of lying/manipulating mortals). so the conclusions you draw depend on where you start picking up lore tidbits. your conclusions are certainly valid if you start with anashti quotes and work your way from there.

what i see as crux of inconsistent is 1) lore from necropolis of lxanvon (placing xulous in/near/before age of scale time period), and 2) anashti saying she didnt know about xulvarien dying. so depending on which piece of lore you start from you arrive at different conclusion.

i think anashti not knowing about xulvariens demise and bertox rise needs retcon, or else she was just being coy and feigning ignorance (or outright lying). the necropolis lore says "Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.".

theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.

xulvarien has to die before bertox is born (coincides with extinction of xulous), which happens before tunaria is known as tunaria. meaning before tunare arrives on planet norrath. order: xulvarien slain, xulous extinct, tunare arrives, elves created, anashti worshipped by elves, anashti tinkers with elves, anashti banished.

extinction times for xulvarien is first, then xulous. meaning the race was godless for a time. maybe thats why they turned to ancestor worship. maybe xulvarien infused his divinity into xulous, cuz he didnt want to watch over them, he wanted to take a vacation. thus they were too strong and unmonitored. he abandoned them, which got himself slain while leaving behind a bamf race that was genociding poor veeshans kids. so then an extinction level event for all races except dragonkin--->ultor plague.

the only race/deity combo unaccounted for in planar assignments i know of are naiad and their great eye. meaning all former norrathians deities offspring are dead, except naiad (if they are norrathian at all). or are there others? demigods dont count.

eq1 clearly proves ultor and bertox are not the same entity. so who was bertox before his ascension? plane of influence deities are either mortals who rise, or are created by elemental deities. ultor is not an elemental deity.

if i could offer a possible explanation for events shortly after veeshan deposits first brood: 1 or more prehistoric deities made behemoths, who made dragons look like ants. so dragons are basically in hide mode. then xulous race ferets out the hiding dragons and takes advantage of them. ultors plague cleanses planet, then the rest of age of scale occurs where dragons rule uncontested.

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Old 08-23-2012, 08:51 PM   #16
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ratbast wrote:

theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.

Where did you hear that Theer slew Xul'Varien? This thread lists the names of the four deity seals in the Theer encounter, and Xul'Varien is not among them. We don't actually know that Xul'Varien died, all Anashti said is that she can no longer feel his presence. That doesn't mean he's dead, he could be sealed away somewhere, or in some other form. Heck, for all we know, Xul'Varien may have been absorbed by Bertoxulous when he came into existence. I think it is important not to assume too much.

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Old 08-23-2012, 09:16 PM   #17
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I also want to point something out here. I think that some of the shadowed men, at least the ones who served Theer, are Xulos. Notice how Betoxxulous from EQ1 looks in the screenshots on this page. Pay special attention to the wing-like appendages on his back and the shape and placement of his eyes.

Now look at a pic of Munzok:

Bertoxxulous chose his form to be that of the Xulos, and he sure looks a LOT like this caste of shadowed men.

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Old 08-24-2012, 07:31 PM   #18
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Meirril wrote:

Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.

Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there.  She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy.  SMILEY

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Old 08-24-2012, 09:13 PM   #19
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ratbast wrote:

We certainly do disagree over many points. as for varsoon, you might want to read the RoV quest reward books. they talk about his diseased immortality, along with a host of living-in-agony human experiments lining his walls ("Aliens" motif again).

i will concede the timeline is inconsistent(if you take deities as incapable of lying/manipulating mortals). so the conclusions you draw depend on where you start picking up lore tidbits. your conclusions are certainly valid if you start with anashti quotes and work your way from there.

what i see as crux of inconsistent is 1) lore from necropolis of lxanvon (placing xulous in/near/before age of scale time period), and 2) anashti saying she didnt know about xulvarien dying. so depending on which piece of lore you start from you arrive at different conclusion.

i think anashti not knowing about xulvariens demise and bertox rise needs retcon, or else she was just being coy and feigning ignorance (or outright lying). the necropolis lore says "Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings.".

theer certainly did kill xulvarien. he killed atleast 4 former dieties with his godslaying weapons, we have their names, one of which is xulvarien. thats his function in universe, as designed by nameless. slaughter gods of influence when they cause imbalance. something theer would have done to rallos if he had his swords. xulous were kicking dragons butt at the time. probably during age of scale. probably having council of (slain) gods (plus maybe anashti since she was familiar with xulvarien) to seed the planet even before brell knew norrath existed. its almost like a mini-noahs ark incident. killing all gods and races except veeshan (and anashti) and only preserving veeshans races, who somehow escaped the plague. world cleansed by plague, but dragonkin survived somehow, like noah surviving in his ark. then starting over with new gods and new races, other councils. but the favorite race is preserved.

xulvarien has to die before bertox is born (coincides with extinction of xulous), which happens before tunaria is known as tunaria. meaning before tunare arrives on planet norrath. order: xulvarien slain, xulous extinct, tunare arrives, elves created, anashti worshipped by elves, anashti tinkers with elves, anashti banished.

extinction times for xulvarien is first, then xulous. meaning the race was godless for a time. maybe thats why they turned to ancestor worship. maybe xulvarien infused his divinity into xulous, cuz he didnt want to watch over them, he wanted to take a vacation. thus they were too strong and unmonitored. he abandoned them, which got himself slain while leaving behind a bamf race that was genociding poor veeshans kids. so then an extinction level event for all races except dragonkin--->ultor plague.

the only race/deity combo unaccounted for in planar assignments i know of are naiad and their great eye. meaning all former norrathians deities offspring are dead, except naiad (if they are norrathian at all). or are there others? demigods dont count.

eq1 clearly proves ultor and bertox are not the same entity. so who was bertox before his ascension? plane of influence deities are either mortals who rise, or are created by elemental deities. ultor is not an elemental deity.

if i could offer a possible explanation for events shortly after veeshan deposits first brood: 1 or more prehistoric deities made behemoths, who made dragons look like ants. so dragons are basically in hide mode. then xulous race ferets out the hiding dragons and takes advantage of them. ultors plague cleanses planet, then the rest of age of scale occurs where dragons rule uncontested.

I see no reason to believe that Theer was in any way involved in the fate of Xul'Varien. As I said above, I also don't see compelling reason to assume that Xul'Varien died at all. Literally the only fact we have regarding Xul'Varien is that Anashti'Sul didn't sense his presence upon her return to Norrath, and that Bertoxxulous has taken the mantle of Lord of Pestilence.

The legend never said that Ultor "created" Bertoxxulous, and in fact, if you read the lore on the EQ1 website, it states that some sages believe the entity Bertoxxulous may have always existed, and the Lxanvon was merely his first emergence into our world. In any case, the legend says that it was the evil in the tomb that brought about Bertoxxulous, not any specific act of Ultor.

Anashti'Sul was banished by the pantheon to the void for the offense of introducing undeath to Norrath. Never is it stated anywhere that Theer had anything to do with her or her fate, and indeed I believe Theer was sealed away before Anashti. The legend of Lxanvon clearly mentions rituals used to raise the undead, and therefore Anashti'Sul must have already introduced undeath to Norrath beforehand. Because of this, I believe Anashti was also already sealed in the void during the era of the Xulos (possibly during their existence, before they went all dead-like).

The book "Remembrances: Berrox" also recounts the story of Ultor and the king, from the the perspective of the Xulos. It specifically mentions the emergence of a black obelisk in the city, which is what actually motivates the King to seek Ultor's guidance. This means that the Shadowed Men were already active at that point in history, and also leads me to believe that my theory regarding Xulos being among the Shadowed Men is credible.

In my opinion, the sealing of Theer in the Void happened before the discovery of Norrath, or possibly at some pre-historic time before the current pantheon was active there. I also believe that Anashti'Sul was banished to the void at some later point, but still before the current crop of gods arrived. We know that Innorruuk used the Ewer of Sul'Dae to create the Ydal in the Plane of Hate, and that they eventually became vampires, a form of undead. Mayong is a member of the Ydal race, and has been specifically called out by devs as older than any of the standard Norrathian races. This means that the Ydal were created before the current gods populated Norrath with their races, and therefore undeath existed before then as well. Given the fact that there were supposedly no factions of mortals on Norrath who even knew of Anashti's existence before the Godking and founding of Aket'Ahken, I think that she was banished to the void either very early in the Age of Scale or possibly even before.

Now, one could read the legend of Anashti's banishment to imply that she wasn't held responsible for the existence of undeath as a whole, but specifically bringing it to Norrath. The problem I see is that the cosmology of the Everquest franchise clearly implies the existence of other worlds and deities, but the in-character stories we are given often use "Norrath" as a synonym for "the World" or even the more broad concept of the Universe in general. Heck, we may even be seeing examples of unreliable narrators, who retell their myths set on Norrath even though they actually took place elsewhere.

In any case, I firmly believe that Theer was long gone by the time the Xulos rose in the Dead Hills, and very likely so was Anashti'Sul. We have no solid information linking Xul'Varien to the Xulos other than a similar-sounding name, and indeed no information at all about him other than the fact that he isn't around anymore, and the implication that he was once the Lord of Pestilence. Bertoxxulous either spontaneously sprang into existence within the Necropolis of Lxanvon or first emerged into the public eye there. Ultor became the first high priest of Bertoxxulous, and brought forth a plague of diseased undead that, along with the influence of the Void, caused the destruction of the Xulos on Norrath. Bertoxxulous then shifted the entire Necropolis to the Plane of Disease, where it should still exist today (assuming the plane survived at all). I also believe that some remnants of the decimated Xulos now serve Theer among the Shadowed Men (or rather, they did. I'm not sure what the state of the Shadowed Men is now that Theer's plan was thwarted).

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Old 08-25-2012, 01:24 AM   #20
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also considering the timeline (relying on necropolis tunaria comment over anashtis deity timeline comment), the xulous genocide wasnt 100% complete. rodcets first words on arriving in qeynos were a question about xulous and their plague, with the premise that they are planet-hoppers. most likely some xulous escaped thru obelisk back in age of scale and were causing trouble across the universe atleast until rodcets arrival in 'modern' qeynos. and for the pics, yes those shadowmen look like bert (head/back stuff), but his back protusions look more like barbs, not wings. in the movie 'the dark crystal' the main villain is exiled from his wicked avian race, and in his going away ceremony they shred his wings. maybe bert was originally an exiled xulous who sent ultor to infiltrate and destroy society in an act of revenge.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:27 AM   #21
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ratbast wrote:

and for the pics, yes those shadowmen look like bert (head/back stuff), but his back protusions look more like barbs, not wings. in the movie 'the dark crystal' the main villain is exiled from his wicked avian race, and in his going away ceremony they shred his wings.

Cronyn just answered part of this in another thread 

Cronyn wrote:

Are the shadowed men descended from the Jal'Raeth?

  • So, the Jal'Raeth are a clan of shadowed men, but there are others as well. 

I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries

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Old 08-25-2012, 09:33 AM   #22
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Cronyn wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.

Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there.  She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy. 

 “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”

Does that mean that you think Anashti'Sul may have been banished after or with Xul'Varien? When she says 'hmm' is that her sensing bertoxxulous or wondering if xul'varien is here?

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Old 08-25-2012, 10:13 AM   #23
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Cronyn wrote:

Meirril wrote:

Theer could not be responsable for the destruction of Xul'varien. If Anashti'Sul is unaware of Xul'varien's destruction before she was banished to the void, then it stands to reason that Xul'varien met his end after Anashti'Sul was banished to the void. Also if Anashti'Sul was banished to the void, it stands to reason that Theer was banished before Anashti'Sul was or she could of simply been killed by Theer as punishment instead of sealing her in the void. Or Anashti could of been a test case, but I find that incredibly unlikely.

Just to throw some wood on the fire - Anashti Sul never actually states she's expecting Xul'Varien to be there.  She just muses that his presence is gone, and has been replaced by some other guy. 

 “Hmm… I do not feel the presence of Xul’Varien, but instead I sense this new being — Bertoxxulous, if I have heard correctly, who is evidently the new Lord of Pestilence. I will be watching that one carefully. However, I have a more pressing matter at hand, which is the one who replaced me, Rodcet Nife.”

Does that mean that you think Anashti'Sul may have been banished after or with Xul'Varien? When she says 'hmm' is that her sensing bertoxxulous or wondering if xul'varien is here?

Entirely possible.

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Old 08-25-2012, 06:21 PM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries

great idea.

my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.

mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.

i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)

ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.

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Old 08-25-2012, 07:07 PM   #25
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ratbast wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I would like to think that Bertoxxulous is a twisted vision of the Xulous king's corpses that had been rotting there in the Necropolis for centuries

great idea.

my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.

I dug out Trosts old design paper for the planes so we could see where it came from to see who would be responsible for recreating the god on his destruction and it seems that it would be Fennin Ro

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Old 08-25-2012, 10:52 PM   #26
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With the exception of the newer ties to Kyle and some of the Theer pieces, this mosaic has already been pieced together on this forum years ago even pre-TSO by the old lore hounds.

Most of them don't play anymore. I do, but I don't spend any time predicting storylines like I used to.

I'm just glad to see that there are still some folks who are still drawn to the rich back story of Norrath.

I confess though, I'd like to see more discussion on Age's End as we draw nearer to it.

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Old 08-26-2012, 08:43 AM   #27
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Wilin wrote:

With the exception of the newer ties to Kyle and some of the Theer pieces, this mosaic has already been pieced together on this forum years ago even pre-TSO by the old lore hounds.

Most of them don't play anymore. I do, but I don't spend any time predicting storylines like I used to.

I'm just glad to see that there are still some folks who are still drawn to the rich back story of Norrath.

I confess though, I'd like to see more discussion on Age's End as we draw nearer to it.

the old threads were definitely useful in checking some of the backstory particularly on the eq1 boards in relation to the jal'raeth and xulous - although I did notice quite a lot of people refering to the xulous as not from antonica so i did my best here to reference all my sources so you could see you were looking at the facts rather than conjecture 

although i'm not saying that what certain npcs and books in game aren't a lie!

take for example the thread at the moment about the prisoner in the plane of justice - you could say that he, being someone held up in the plane of justice for crimes his race cannot feel fit to judge, speaks also of an untrustworthy troll who betrayed him - both of the sources in those quotes are unreliable from an investigators perspective!

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Old 08-26-2012, 11:31 AM   #28
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ragnaphore wrote:

ratbast wrote:

sorry i was unclear. i was just asking if his "post-deadhills" fate (becoming mob in pod) was cannon. as in whether he could make a reappearance in eq2, or if he was dispatched (in postmortal form) in eq1 lore before the timeline split. could he still be in pod in eq2 right now, or spying on kyle near qeynos or something?

There's no clear answer (yet).

Ultor's defeat in CoD is cannon for sure. Whether or not he was definitly destroyed in the battle is anyone guess. (A very powerful undead priest "killed" in a place chock-full of necromantic magic and which is also the heart of his god's powers... Would you realy bet, he won't come back ?)

Remember that time was reversed by Druzzil Ro to just before we invaded the Planes of Power so we haven't defeated him in this timeline

But i am not sure what has happened to the Plane of Disease, it probably collapsed like the other planes and then a shard was created on Bertoxxulous's return - maybe ultor and the crypt is in it i am not sure

Time was reversed just before we invaded the Plane of Time, not the entire planes of power entirely.

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Old 08-27-2012, 12:30 AM   #29
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ratbast wrote:

my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.

mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.

i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)

ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.

I think your making an awful lot of totally unfounded assumptions regarding the "rules" of deityhood, of which we really have never been given any information at all. Where did you get all of these ideas, anyway? They're certainly not from any existing Everquest lore that I am familiar with, and I've been playing EQ for 12 years.

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Old 08-27-2012, 03:05 AM   #30
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

ratbast wrote:

my problem with this idea is that elemental gods create deities out of thin air. create from nothing. mortals create from sentient mortals. they cant create gods out of thin air like elemental gods do and have. mortals need a sentient host to work with. maybe elementals dont appear to need one cuz they just pull one straight from flow of souls into norrathian hero plane. influence deities are sentient beings right? that needs to come from somewhere if the product is sentient.

mortals can put a god into pantheon thru ascension of a sentient non-deity. an ancient xulous corpse is not sentient. however ultor did raise some ancestor ghosts during ritual. if one of those ghosts was able to possess an animated corpse, that might qualify as host for apotheosis.

i think it says something like an ancient evil came back to norrath. i assumed that meant role of lord of pestilence. could be bertox founded society of berrox-prime and had led a particularly evil mortal life. then was orchestrating as mere ghost (returned ancient evil) to lift ultor to chancellor, lead adan to crypt, and have ritual started. kyle is a ghost. if he follows dead hills script his next move is infiltrating antonia to get her to do a ritual. then he would fabricate a crisis that would make antonia desperate enough to try a crazy ritual. something that plays to her nobler desires for others welfare, since that is her most easily manipulated emotion. (iirc the crisis for adan was relating to obelisks)

ancient evil could mean many things, including the knowledge of the ritual itself.

I think your making an awful lot of totally unfounded assumptions regarding the "rules" of deityhood, of which we really have never been given any information at all. Where did you get all of these ideas, anyway? They're certainly not from any existing Everquest lore that I am familiar with, and I've been playing EQ for 12 years.

i was not presenting assumptions/guesses as fact, just possibility. and its based on events and how things play out, instead of discretely comminicated rules. its based on the creation stories and events of history.

i dont think unfounded is the right word either. there is a pattern of how things are done. higher order entities create lower order life. nameless->elemental gods->influence gods->races. the idea mortals can create deities is itself backwards. there are 3 known cases of mortals creating deity. 2 are ascension of sentient mortals. the 3rd in question here is unknown. saying it required a sentience is not unfounded. its following the known pattern for the process. (edit: also zek was replaced by triumvate consisting of sullon who was originally a mere mortal. so thats give rodcet process, bertox process, zeb process, and hounds of war--arguably all requiring sentience in recipe)

All this to say i think bertox wasnt created out of thin air.

if you dont like speculation, you probalby wont like anything i have to say. what is known is known. rehashing is boring. the only source of new facts is devs. not us. ofc i wont be able to discover a new fact. what i find fun is extrapolating trajectories from tidbits and trying to solve ruleset. based on your post i doubt you would have competing theories, just frustration i would go there. but there is a rich story of soul(or essence) permanence in everquest, which i have watched and paid attention to. the rough theories i have arrived at have 2 basic types of life. eternal, whose existence doesnt begin or end in this verse (flow of souls and all), and what i would call clone. clone life begin here as well as ending here, barring they dont magically get soul from pinochios japeto type procedure. its also possible that each plane has its own (local sub-verse) soul factory for clones, so clones can go to heaven with their creating deity after their normal lifespan, planar paradise, but not till yonder, just a heaven for their creating deity in their sub-verse. for an eternal sentience to be relegated to a subverse paradise would be hell. a complete failure to realize their potential to move on. eternal entities originate elsewhere in another verse and are destined to continue onward. my theory is that even the influence deities go till yonder(properly anthropomorphized), dont think elemental are so lucky tho, they are clone: a local fixture born of necessity (not properly anthropormophized). which is why kerafyrm killing zek wouldnt destroy universe (theer has done that multiple times), but killing an elemental deity would be like breaking a leg off a table, causing verse to collapse or explode/whatever.

i know some planar creations are like hollow echoes, seen earth elemental in sundered frontier like that. they dont have a soul period.

almost all planar entities (all planes except hero), including demigods that are flesh offspring of gods, are clone. they can be completely anihilated. norrathian heroes cannot be anihilated, only bodily destroyed and sent till yonder.

where it gets murky for me is contrasting the nature of standard bodily offspring (typically demigods, as opposed to work of their hands) and ydal. ydal were truly "flesh and blood" of deity, and designed to house eternal souls passing thru this existence. they are an abomination of demigod and sentience. (my hunch is that bodily offspring demigods are not their own sentience, rather an essence fragment chipped off the deiteis own, and without soul.) so the hounds of war, being elevated mortals(atleast sullon), had their own sentience before becoming a triumvate, and fully vested as influence deity.

so in my theory, aviaks in plane of air are clones, and soulless like amyg (limited edition print), valkyries, and many more. but if they successfully reproduce with a deity created mortal (standard hero race), can spawn a new sentient halfbreed race (hero plane instantiations being what we know as minotaurs etc, sentient, mortal, and can reproduce). extraplanar beings are kinda like fallen angels who cant procreate without their gods permission diluting their power. consider an aviak is a planar creature, from air. yet they do not qualify as an elemental. not for LnL, not for anything. but they are from plane of air? imo aviaks we know today in hero plane are halfbreeds (sentient, mortal, can reproduce) unlike planar aviaks who are clone.

id like to hear more lore about how influence deities created their races, to speculate about what went wrong with ydal. the idea of using a single drop of blood sounds more like a single demigod creation or limited edition clone race creation such as amyg.

i think themes of controlled/gated reproduction are great for storytelling. its such a powerful feature of life. powerhungry tyrants would love to take it from commoners, ie influence deities and their planar races and the law that exists in their realms. ofc tunare would tell them to multiply like jackrabbits.

the creation themes are all about reproduction, its the whole study of the gods and their whole interest. brell being a sneaky bastage and doing it multiple times. gods are happy to see their creations proliferate on norrath, but i dont think thats par for their home plane. they gotta be the boss and run things, run a tight ship. thus the limited edition influence-planar races.

my theories make the norrathian universe look elegant to me and explain many of the events. it also really opens up opportunities for new playable races (amyg halfbreed).

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