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Old 09-06-2012, 06:43 PM   #91
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I think many people are talking about PL situations now and not "level appropriate content". Ok, it is easier than it used to be with mudflation, but not anywhere near as easy as when there's a 90+ toon mentored. My recent experience leveling a zerker and a warden together, was up until L80 it was generally faster and better xp with 2 mercs as well. It was really only at 90 with WL gear that it was an xp drain having mercs. So if any player character had asked to join me, I'd have been hapoy to say yes. This may be partly because I can't 2 box brilliantly and so having an extra healer merc to save me on hairy moments was useful, but the DPS of the two extra mercs made a difference too. SoE must design the xp mechanics based on what fresh virgin players, and while mudflation means groups of 6 aren't needed, groups of 4 are generally pretty good.
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:59 PM   #92
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I think many people are talking about PL situations now and not "level appropriate content". Ok, it is easier than it used to be with mudflation, but not anywhere near as easy as when there's a 90+ toon mentored. My recent experience leveling a zerker and a warden together, was up until L80 it was generally faster and better xp with 2 mercs as well. It was really only at 90 with WL gear that it was an xp drain having mercs. So if any player character had asked to join me, I'd have been hapoy to say yes. This may be partly because I can't 2 box brilliantly and so having an extra healer merc to save me on hairy moments was useful, but the DPS of the two extra mercs made a difference too. SoE must design the xp mechanics based on what fresh virgin players, and while mudflation means groups of 6 aren't needed, groups of 4 are generally pretty good.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:06 PM   #93
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[email protected] wrote:

1rocketjones wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

1rocketjones wrote:

This is just a horrible idea. If they increase the amount of xp/kill then they will just jack up the amount of xp needed for a level. Just no.

Try actually reading what has been posted.Thanks.

I did read the OP and basing my arguement off of OP's own argument of if X is increased then the dev's will increase Y. Critical chance it was. Yeah, if the dev's would allow critical chance white adornments equipable in every slot it would cause an imbalance. The dev's would increase mob's critical avoidance. See what I did there?

You are welcome.

I seen what you did. Demonstrate a lack of understanding in what is two seperate discussions, with completely different factors. Apples and oranges.I am sorry that your "idea" about white adornments did not go down well.

OH. So what you are saying is by increasing one aspect of the game ie. XP for groups the devs should not increase the total XP needed to gain a level. Yet while increasing the means to meet a gating mechanic ie. critical chance by allowing critical chance adornments in any slot the devs should increase the critical avoidance of mobs.

I do see the comparison.

This "idea" is horrible.

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Old 09-06-2012, 07:48 PM   #94
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1rocketjones wrote:

OH. So what you are saying is by increasing one aspect of the game ie. XP for groups the devs should not increase the total XP needed to gain a level. Yet while increasing the means to meet a gating mechanic ie. critical chance by allowing critical chance adornments in any slot the devs should increase the critical avoidance of mobs.

I do see the comparison.

This "idea" is horrible.

The point you aren't grasping in the apples and oranges is that Crit Chance is intended to be an end game gating mechanic and only comes into equations once you reach a challenge level of content that requires raid forces in current game content to attempt.

XP grinding and leveling in Everquest 2 now is trivial. Completely, absolutely, trivial. There is no challenge in it any more. It is 100% achieveable and completable in 1 sitting by serious skilled players and a week tops by less serious players.

Raiding content is meant to be tiered and designed to where you have to progress through the previous conent to move on to the next. What you were asking was to be able to artficially jump past the gating mechanic by being able to pick up +100 crit chance in white adornments. From what I read of the other post, the complaint was that people didn't want to spend the time gearing up alts in order for them to be effective in Planes of Wars and were complaining about the gating mechanic for end game raiding when is supposed to be the last step in Everquest 2 progression.

It is apples and oranges. End game restriction versus Day 1 start restriction.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:24 PM   #95
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To the OP: If they are your 'friends', then they should understand that you were spending time with your son, while not typical its wat he wanted to do with YOU, so maybe if they got fricked off, upset and aren't talking to you because of this then I'd say that you need to find better friends!!

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:30 PM   #96
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Regolas wrote:

I think many people are talking about PL situations now and not "level appropriate content". SoE must design the xp mechanics based on what fresh virgin players, and while mudflation means groups of 6 aren't needed, groups of 4 are generally pretty good.

Level appropriate content is subjective. When the majority of the playerbase is all centered around xx level, then that is where the focus of content design should be. Keeping an archaic design for "fresh virgin players" at the detriment to the legacy players isn't always a good thing.

I know it will never happen, but I would like to see some metrics on the account age of everyone logging in weekly. How many of those accounts are 8+ year vets. How many are 7+ year vets. Ect. Ect. Wherever the majority percentage falls is where your game mechanics should be tailored to benefit. How many of those logging in weekly have 3+ level 92 alts. How many 5+ 92. How many 8+ 92.

I would bet you the majority of the playerbase is between the 3+ and 6 year account and has at least 3 level 92's. There has been a steady downtrend in the playerbase ever since RoK and I honestly don't believe that Freeport and the F2P scheme brought in that many "fresh virgin players." Many of my friends who came back just reactivated their account and rolled new toons on Freeport while keeping thier legacy account age.

I guess what I'm saying is, the developers need to step back and take a look at Everquest 2 realisitcally. Unless there are either some MAJOR changes and advertising put in place to market this game to new players (not going to happen with EQNext right around the corner), the legacy players are going to continue being frustrated with outdated game mechanics that hinder the veterans. When you have new games like Guild Wars 2 coming out with instant grouping, quest sharing, individual experience rewards, etc., all designed to simplify and streamline the gaming experience, it gets harder and harder to put up with outdated systems.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:31 PM   #97
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[email protected]_old wrote:

1rocketjones wrote:

OH. So what you are saying is by increasing one aspect of the game ie. XP for groups the devs should not increase the total XP needed to gain a level. Yet while increasing the means to meet a gating mechanic ie. critical chance by allowing critical chance adornments in any slot the devs should increase the critical avoidance of mobs.

I do see the comparison.

This "idea" is horrible.

The point you aren't grasping in the apples and oranges is that Crit Chance is intended to be an end game gating mechanic and only comes into equations once you reach a challenge level of content that requires raid forces in current game content to attempt.

XP grinding and leveling in Everquest 2 now is trivial. Completely, absolutely, trivial. There is no challenge in it any more. It is 100% achieveable and completable in 1 sitting by serious skilled players and a week tops by less serious players.

Raiding content is meant to be tiered and designed to where you have to progress through the previous conent to move on to the next. What you were asking was to be able to artficially jump past the gating mechanic by being able to pick up +100 crit chance in white adornments. From what I read of the other post, the complaint was that people didn't want to spend the time gearing up alts in order for them to be effective in Planes of Wars and were complaining about the gating mechanic for end game raiding when is supposed to be the last step in Everquest 2 progression.

It is apples and oranges. End game restriction versus Day 1 start restriction.

Apples vs. oranges. Restriction vs. restriction. It is the same. I am making a direct comparison.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:48 PM   #98
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1rocketjones wrote:

Apples vs. oranges. Restriction vs. restriction. It is the same. I am making a direct comparison.

Not really sure where you are getting off saying it's the same. How you can even equate the fact that every single adventurer in game must earn experience to level to 92 is anywhere near the same as being forced to obtain 450 crit chance for Plane of War.

Unless you are going to say that every single adventurer in game should be able to access Plane of War with  at level 1 with level 1 starter gear, then I'm not sure what your complaint is. EVERYONE has to earn experience. NOONE has to gear up for Plane of War.

That's your choice if you want to experience Plane of War, be effective, and succeed. Leveling is not a choice. It is a chore that everyone must partake in.

Some restrictions are good for the health of the game. The crit chance for Plane of War ensures that the players stepping into the zone have the gear necessary to have a chance at success. The grouping penalty in game ensures that players will be forced to exclude each other or suffer slower leveling without bringing any benefit to the players. That is not a restriction that is good for the health of the game in my opinion.

Those 2 things are nowhere near the same.

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Old 09-07-2012, 08:03 AM   #99
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Regolas wrote:

I think many people are talking about PL situations now and not "level appropriate content". Ok, it is easier than it used to be with mudflation, but not anywhere near as easy as when there's a 90+ toon mentored. My recent experience leveling a zerker and a warden together, was up until L80 it was generally faster and better xp with 2 mercs as well. It was really only at 90 with WL gear that it was an xp drain having mercs. So if any player character had asked to join me, I'd have been hapoy to say yes. This may be partly because I can't 2 box brilliantly and so having an extra healer merc to save me on hairy moments was useful, but the DPS of the two extra mercs made a difference too. SoE must design the xp mechanics based on what fresh virgin players, and while mudflation means groups of 6 aren't needed, groups of 4 are generally pretty good.

My understanding was that mercenaries "mentor down" to low level characters. If someone can please verify this, one way or the other, it would be appreciated. I say this because I recall people "commenting" on the damage output of mercenaries at low levels, when mercenaries were new. I believe the response stated that mercenary damage output was high (in lower levels) because mercenaries mentored down to match the level of their owner.If I am correct, mentor-boosted levelling is now a stock, default option, available to anyone who has purchased AoD. The significance of this is self explanatory. If true, it strengthens the case that EQ2's outdated EXP system is in need of an overhaul to become more grouping-friendly. But to make it clear, this is an "IF". Should someone have decisive information on how mercenaries match the level of the person who hires them, a link would be appreciated.Cheers.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:38 AM   #100
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1rocketjones wrote:

[email protected]_old wrote:

1rocketjones wrote:

OH. So what you are saying is by increasing one aspect of the game ie. XP for groups the devs should not increase the total XP needed to gain a level. Yet while increasing the means to meet a gating mechanic ie. critical chance by allowing critical chance adornments in any slot the devs should increase the critical avoidance of mobs.

I do see the comparison.

This "idea" is horrible.

The point you aren't grasping in the apples and oranges is that Crit Chance is intended to be an end game gating mechanic and only comes into equations once you reach a challenge level of content that requires raid forces in current game content to attempt.

XP grinding and leveling in Everquest 2 now is trivial. Completely, absolutely, trivial. There is no challenge in it any more. It is 100% achieveable and completable in 1 sitting by serious skilled players and a week tops by less serious players.

Raiding content is meant to be tiered and designed to where you have to progress through the previous conent to move on to the next. What you were asking was to be able to artficially jump past the gating mechanic by being able to pick up +100 crit chance in white adornments. From what I read of the other post, the complaint was that people didn't want to spend the time gearing up alts in order for them to be effective in Planes of Wars and were complaining about the gating mechanic for end game raiding when is supposed to be the last step in Everquest 2 progression.

It is apples and oranges. End game restriction versus Day 1 start restriction.

Apples vs. oranges. Restriction vs. restriction. It is the same. I am making a direct comparison.

I'm sorry, but Mathrim is correct, & you are not. It's simply not rational to compare XP/hour rates of leveling characters to Crit Chance "gateways" for high-end raid instances. One is a "restriction" that everyone needs to do -- unless you, for some reason, choose to just play at 1st level for your entire EQ2 time, which is senseless -- & the other is a restriction you CHOOSE if you wish to see raid & other high-level content. Your comparison IS "apples & oranges" & is thus not the least relevant to this discussion.As for Avirodar's question, regarding whether or not mercenaries are "mentored down" to lower level characters .... while I can't say with 100% accuracy, I believe they are. This is based solely on the extreme difference in ease between soloing a "level appropriate character" in a heroic dungeon, & playing that exact same character in heroic content with a mercenary. Without a mercenary, for me soloing heroic content is a struggle, at best; with a mercenary, it's ez-breezy, in fact very nearly face-roll simple. You go from "nearly impossible" without a merc, to "where's the challenge?????" with a merc, without having changed your character at all.As a result, there is very little incentive to look for groups prior to level 92, because in the time it takes to get a group -- perhaps with a total stranger -- you could have already cleared an instance or two (or more) & kept all the XP & loot for yourself.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:44 AM   #101
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Honestly, if you have a full group, you usually kill stuff so much faster that you end up getting MORE XP in the same amount of time than you would soloing or duoing.

I love doing groups in Blackburrow, Stormhold, Runnyeye, CT, and POA, because it's a fast rough and tumble slaughterfest and the XP rolls in.

Um .... by myself, with a mercenary, I can pretty much do exactly that, without having to wait for a group with whom I have to share loot. Why should I bother adding more players, when I can do that alone?

& of course, that doesn't even include Chronoing, which allows me to roll most (or even all, though I haven't tried) of those zones without a merc.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #102
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Ulrichvon wrote:

Another double XP weekend down, and at least 4 more friends personally slighted as a result.

Let me explain.

I promised my son to PL him this past weekend as a reward for some excellent things hes done recently.  Maybe not your typical father-son activity, or parent-child reward, but we're both avid gamers and he wanted a 92 troub to raid on since his paladin is never needed.   So sure, lets have some fun.

We set out to the task, and in the first 3 hours he has ~200 aa and is level 30 something.  The problem is, friends in guild are watching this activity and some are getting a combination of upset, angry, jealous, or somewhere in between.  I get no less than a dozen tells asking 'can I tag along on toon x?'.

The problem being, if I add another person to the group, the xp cuts in half and it doubles the time to level.  If I add 4 more, it drastically cuts into the time required to level, as for each person that adds to the group, that is net that much less XP rewarded.   Now adding people doesn't cause mobs to die faster, as the only limiting factor to gaining XP in this game is how many mobs you can find up and can be mass pulled without breaking leash range.

Unfortunately, I didn't really have the free time to commit to even what I promised my son, and I certainly didn't have the time to dedicate to the task if I brought 3-4 others along with me.  So, I had to tell my friends, "sorry, soe math wont allow me to invite you".

In short, the game would be better if there was no penalty for bringing more people into a group.  In fact it would be much better.  Not only would I not have been forced to turn away my friends, I would have been able to share contested dungeons with others doing the same thing rather than pooping all over their experience by killing every mob before they could.  I'd much rather be put in a situation where I'm motivated to work with others than against them.

I think this also extends outside of double xp and power leveling situations, as even in normal game play, we shouldn't be motivated to exclude people from adventuring since adding more people only lowers the xp.  You've designed a game that motivates us to bring the minimum people needed to accomplish a task (to be exclusive) verses bringing everyone who'd like to come along (to be inclusive).

I think you've made an egregious mistake in how XP is rewarded, and I know there have been dozes of threads over the past 5 years about this, and you've chosen to ignore all of them without a response or change, but I figure what the heck, I'll add one more of my own for you to ignore.

Have a good day.

It goes even one step further.   There is nothing inherent in the game anymore at a lower level that makes it interesting to play.  If you are not max level/max AA with raid gear, you aren't playing with family and friends (as is true in your case with your son). 

The only interesting activity is to get to 92 as soon as possible, but the leveling mechanic you are discussing puts a giant speedbump in that path.

Since new material coming into the game is almost always end-game, or building on end-levels - at least create a PL friendly environment.   I haven't played the game 'as intended' for probably 5 years now, and share the frustration when I'm chatting with a friend in his instance while I'm in my instance..and we are both PL'ing...instead of in the same group having fun.  

I haven't viewed EQ2 as something other than a chat room with stuff to do for a few years now - this mechanic is one of the reasons.

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Old 09-07-2012, 02:30 PM   #103
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I agree that somehow grouping needs to be repaired, but going back to the old days where it took a level 15 friend and you about 5 minutes to kill a level 15^^^ gnoll won't go down well with the current EQ2 players.

It shouldn't be hard for the xp bonus not to be applied to the encounter and divided amongst the players, but instead by how many people are in the group. The AA/XP award should be the same as if an individual killed the mob, plus a 10% bonus per player for 2 people, 20% per player for 3 people, up to a maximum of 50% per player for 6 people. (Eg. A single player killing a mob would get 100XP. In a full group of six he would get 150XP for the kill).

A 50% bonus would make people want to form full groups all the time. However, the bonus should not apply if a chrono'd down god is in the group. Chronoing was broken from the start.  In no way does a level 80 chronoing to level 10 behave like a genuine level 10. Instead, he's some "God Like" level 10.

Perhaps there should be a maximum amount of levels you can chrono down to for groups and still get any AA/XP? Maybe 20 levels?

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:33 PM   #104
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This thread has become less about making the game social and more about increasing exp rewards in groups. Rationalize it however you like, but asking for all exp rewards to be multipled by up to 500% seems like a very poor idea to me. New player experience and low level content DOES matter to the health of the game, and leveling speed is rarely cited as the reason veteran players quit.

I do not agree with increasing exp rewards unless we also increase the effort requires to obtain them. Giving everybody in the group 100% of the exp for each MOB would make PL'ing even faster than it is now, and facilitate antisocial behavior like doorsitting and leeching. Remember, just being in a group with somebody isn't inherently social, you actually need to communicate and cooperate with that person as well. A person who is autofollowing you while AFK isn't being very social.

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:41 PM   #105
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

This thread has become less about making the game social and more about increasing exp rewards in groups. Rationalize it however you like, but asking for all exp rewards to be multipled by up to 500% seems like a very poor idea to me. New player experience and low level content DOES matter to the health of the game, and leveling speed is rarely cited as the reason veteran players quit.

I do not agree with increasing exp rewards unless we also increase the effort requires to obtain them. Giving everybody in the group 100% of the exp for each MOB would make PL'ing even faster than it is now, and facilitate antisocial behavior like doorsitting and leeching. Remember, just being in a group with somebody isn't inherently social, you actually need to communicate and cooperate with that person as well. A person who is autofollowing you while AFK isn't being very social.

I just honestly think the issue is, is the amount of exp 'bonus' people get with having more people in the group.

2 People: 40%6 People: 60%

This doesn't seem right, what should be is this:

2 People: 40%6 People: 120%

Thus giving each additional person a 20% bonus for being grouped with another person. This would satisfy everyone in my opinion as it would give incentive to group but, would allow people to still play their own way and not damage anything other than the fact that not socializing with more than one person is acceptable in today's gaming world.

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Old 09-07-2012, 09:09 PM   #106
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

This thread has become less about making the game social and more about increasing exp rewards in groups. Rationalize it however you like, but asking for all exp rewards to be multipled by up to 500% seems like a very poor idea to me. New player experience and low level content DOES matter to the health of the game, and leveling speed is rarely cited as the reason veteran players quit.

I do not agree with increasing exp rewards unless we also increase the effort requires to obtain them. Giving everybody in the group 100% of the exp for each MOB would make PL'ing even faster than it is now, and facilitate antisocial behavior like doorsitting and leeching. Remember, just being in a group with somebody isn't inherently social, you actually need to communicate and cooperate with that person as well. A person who is autofollowing you while AFK isn't being very social.

The OP talked about being forced to be selfish and exclude guildies from PLing with him, because it slowed him and his son down, so the amount of AA/XP of groups is a key part of the grouping problem. The PLing could be abated if the chronoing thing was fixed. If 20 levels was the limit, a level 92 couldn't mentor to 25 and PL a full group and wipe out zones.

A non xp related thing that may improve grouping is for x1 dungeons (no mercs). We already have x2 and x4 instances. A full group of 6 people is required to enter.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:14 PM   #107
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

This thread has become less about making the game social and more about increasing exp rewards in groups. Rationalize it however you like, but asking for all exp rewards to be multipled by up to 500% seems like a very poor idea to me. New player experience and low level content DOES matter to the health of the game, and leveling speed is rarely cited as the reason veteran players quit.

I do not agree with increasing exp rewards unless we also increase the effort requires to obtain them. Giving everybody in the group 100% of the exp for each MOB would make PL'ing even faster than it is now, and facilitate antisocial behavior like doorsitting and leeching. Remember, just being in a group with somebody isn't inherently social, you actually need to communicate and cooperate with that person as well. A person who is autofollowing you while AFK isn't being very social.

In your own mind, maybe. For the rest of us that are making completely valid points to support a change, to improve a mechanics situation that encourages anti-social gameplay, this is about making the game more social, by improving the odds of groups accepting random pickups.The idea I presented would only make "levelling faster" situationally. Infact, it my idea would make it marginally slower for the UberRaidGeared SK to PL a single character from 50 to 92/320 (PLing as a duo is common). A group of 3 would be sitting about even, a group of 4 would see a marginal gain to the total incoming EXP pool, but none of them would be levelling astronomically fast.And even in a group of 6, no character would be dinging quicker than if they were duoing with an SK under todays mechanics. The only difference would be, is other players would have a much higher chance of being invited. Guess what? EQ2 is an MMO. People should be encouraged to group, not discouraged. It should go without saying.Also, as commented on with the mercenary issue, anyone who has purchased AoD has access to mercenaries, which mentor down to low level players, and utterly destroy level-relevant content. PLing is a stock standard part of the game, available to anyone who has purchased AoD. With such, out-dated anti-social EXP mechanics need to be changed.If your only "concern" with my idea is that a full group can ding 92/320 around the same time as a duo/trio will ding 92/320, you must miss the point, because that is EXACTLY what my idea is meant to achieve.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:17 PM   #108
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SteelPiston wrote:

Perhaps there should be a maximum amount of levels you can chrono down to for groups and still get any AA/XP? Maybe 20 levels?

Chrono-mentoring was implemented to allow players to experience lower level content, and to play with friends, AND get exp for doing it. There is already an inherent reduction in EXP, which increases the further you mentor down.So no, there absolutely should not be a maximum amount of levels you can chrono down to, and still get EXP if in a group. It would only increase the anti-social mechanics of EQ2.

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Old 09-08-2012, 03:53 AM   #109
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[email protected] wrote:

If your only "concern" with my idea is that a full group can ding 92/320 around the same time as a duo/trio will ding 92/320, you must miss the point, because that is EXACTLY what my idea is meant to achieve.

No, I understand the point completely. I have no problem with a full group leveling at the same pace as a duo/trio, I would just prefer that the pace be no faster than it is now. My problem isn't with the comparative leveling speed between solo/duo and full group, it's about the total amount of exp being earned. The optimal solution would equalize the various group sizes without rewarding more exp for the same effort. We can manipulate two main balance points: either the rewards must be reduced or the effort to earn them must be increased commensurate with the increase in reward.

The previous suggestion regarding a participation metric which determines what percentage of the full exp reward you earn for a given encounter would allow for some increase in rewards but only if the entire group is participating, not simply being powerleveled. I surrender the point that such a mechanic would be very complex and take time to properly balance, but it is an example of an outside-the-box suggestion that doesn't make the game into AFK-Level-Quest2.

A more straightforward method by which we could accomplish the same goal would simply be to make content more difficult and demanding for a full group. That's how Everquest did it. Maybe use Dungeon Maker to craft a suite of level-agnostic, randomized dungeons with randomized loot and various difficulty setting. Call it, the "Infinite Dungeon" and make sure there is engaging challenging content available at many level ranges. You'd need a full group, but if you can handle it, you earn amazing exp and some level-appropriate loot. Sounds like a fun distraction from running the same 8+ year old content day in and day out. Centralize all the level-grinding groups within the Infinite Dungeon and leave the rest of Norrath for adventure!

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Old 09-08-2012, 06:39 AM   #110
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

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If your only "concern" with my idea is that a full group can ding 92/320 around the same time as a duo/trio will ding 92/320, you must miss the point, because that is EXACTLY what my idea is meant to achieve.

No, I understand the point completely. I have no problem with a full group leveling at the same pace as a duo/trio, I would just prefer that the pace be no faster than it is now. My problem isn't with the comparative leveling speed between solo/duo and full group, it's about the total amount of exp being earned. The optimal solution would equalize the various group sizes without rewarding more exp for the same effort. We can manipulate two main balance points: either the rewards must be reduced or the effort to earn them must be increased commensurate with the increase in reward.

The previous suggestion regarding a participation metric which determines what percentage of the full exp reward you earn for a given encounter would allow for some increase in rewards but only if the entire group is participating, not simply being powerleveled. I surrender the point that such a mechanic would be very complex and take time to properly balance, but it is an example of an outside-the-box suggestion that doesn't make the game into AFK-Level-Quest2.

A more straightforward method by which we could accomplish the same goal would simply be to make content more difficult and demanding for a full group. That's how Everquest did it. Maybe use Dungeon Maker to craft a suite of level-agnostic, randomized dungeons with randomized loot and various difficulty setting. Call it, the "Infinite Dungeon" and make sure there is engaging challenging content available at many level ranges. You'd need a full group, but if you can handle it, you earn amazing exp and some level-appropriate loot. Sounds like a fun distraction from running the same 8+ year old content day in and day out. Centralize all the level-grinding groups within the Infinite Dungeon and leave the rest of Norrath for adventure!

So... At the current time, I can help a friend level from levelX to levelY in 4 hours. If we come across a random pug who asks to join, and we decide to be social, unless they are an amazing DPSer and the mobs are lined up one after the other, it will now take about 5 hours to get my friend from levelX to levelY.BUTYou have some kind of issue with a presented idea, that would make it take me 5 hours to level my friend from levelX to levelY (slower than currently possible), and if I invite extras to join, it will still take 5 hours to level my friend from levelX to levelY (no penalty for extras).Too fast, you say? Boggles the mind. The total amount of group wide EXP coming in (the pool of what everyone in the group is getting) would be too much? Why/how would it be bad? They still wont be able to level from X to Y any faster than currently possible, the only difference would be EQ2 suddently has the doors swung wide open, for EXPing becoming an inclusive environment, no an exclusionary one.In theory, SOE could go one step beyond my idea, and make any heroic mob give people the EXP as if it was killed by a group of 4 (instead of the proposed 3), regardless of if it is killed solo, molo, duo, trio, or a full group of 6 (exp awarded to each participant would not change due to group size). But I suspect this mark will be where a lot of people who are habitual duo'ers, will start to complain about the EXP loss, I went with the equivalent of a group of 3, to be a middle ground.Your idea about difficult agnostic dungeons looks great, on paper. But once again I fear it lands in the complexity basket. How much time and resources would you expect SOE to invest, to get it done, and to get it right? And would it be balanced against mercenaries? What player set would it be balanced against to be deemed difficult? What is incredibly hard for someone else, may be a walk in the park for me. So despite a creative idea of good intention, I see it being a battle for SOE to balance. And there would be the risk that SOE abandons the project after a short time...So where exactly is our difference of opinion? We both agree that current grouping mechanics are anti-social. The reason they are anti-social is because of the EXP hit in what a player actually obtains over time. I do not believe we disagree over this. I do not want a solution that makes it faster for people to level than a duo currently can, I want a solution that allows multiple people to participate without being an EXP detriment, thus encourage grouping.I would like to see a simple, effective solution pushed to SOE, that fixes the code-enforced anti-social nature of grouping, and allows me to have no hesitation to invite extra people. And I continue to maintain that with the advent of mercenaries, "mentor powered" characters are now a default part of the levelling process in EQ2, thus has every right to be factored into how EXP is handled.

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Old 09-08-2012, 10:02 AM   #111
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[email protected] wrote:

So... At the current time, I can help a friend level from levelX to levelY in 4 hours. If we come across a random pug who asks to join, and we decide to be social, unless they are an amazing DPSer and the mobs are lined up one after the other, it will now take about 5 hours to get my friend from levelX to levelY.BUTYou have some kind of issue with a presented idea, that would make it take me 5 hours to level my friend from levelX to levelY (slower than currently possible), and if I invite extras to join, it will still take 5 hours to level my friend from levelX to levelY (no penalty for extras).Too fast, you say? Boggles the mind. The total amount of group wide EXP coming in (the pool of what everyone in the group is getting) would be too much? Why/how would it be bad? They still wont be able to level from X to Y any faster than currently possible, the only difference would be EQ2 suddently has the doors swung wide open, for EXPing becoming an inclusive environment, no an exclusionary one.In theory, SOE could go one step beyond my idea, and make any heroic mob give people the EXP as if it was killed by a group of 4, regardless of if it is killed solo, molo, duo, trio, or a full group of 6 (exp awarded to each participant would not change due to group size). But I suspect this mark will be where a lot of people who are habitual duo'ers, will start to complain about the EXP loss, I went with the equivalent of a group of 3, to be a middle ground.Your idea about difficult agnostic dungeons looks great, on paper. But once again I fear it lands in the complexity basket. How much time and resources would you expect SOE to invest, to get it done, and to get it right? And would it be balanced against mercenaries? What player set would it be balanced against to be deemed difficult? What is incredibly hard for someone else, may be a walk in the park for me. So despite a creative idea of good intention, I see it being a battle for SOE to balance. And there would be the risk that SOE abandons the project after a short time...So where exactly is our difference of opinion? We both agree that current grouping mechanics are anti-social. The reason they are anti-social is because of the EXP hit in what a player actually obtains over time. I do not believe we disagree over this. I do not want a solution that makes it faster for people to level than a duo currently can, I want a solution that allows multiple people to participate without being an EXP detriment, thus encourage grouping.I would like to see a simple, effective solution pushed to SOE, that fixes the code-enforced anti-social nature of grouping, and allows me to have no hesitation to invite extra people. And I continue to maintain that with the advent of mercenaries, "mentor powered" characters are now a default part of the levelling process in EQ2, thus has every right to be factored into how EXP is handled.

I just want to clarify that your idea upthread about normalizing exp around a 3 person group is actually a pretty decent compromise, and I support that. I just don't feel that SOE would be willing to risk the ire of the playerbase for nerfing solo/duo exp. My comments aren't aimed at that idea, but at the people asking for everybody in a group to get full exp value for every kill, instead of sharing it. So basically, we agree in principle, but I am just trying to propose some alternative solutions because while I'd personally prefer the solo/duo exp nerf route, I just don't think it will be considered viable.

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Old 09-08-2012, 10:24 AM   #112
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

I just want to clarify that your idea upthread about normalizing exp around a 3 person group is actually a pretty decent compromise, and I support that. I just don't feel that SOE would be willing to risk the ire of the playerbase for nerfing solo/duo exp. My comments aren't aimed at that idea, but at the people asking for everybody in a group to get full exp value for every kill, instead of sharing it. So basically, we agree in principle, but I am just trying to propose some alternative solutions because while I'd personally prefer the solo/duo exp nerf route, I just don't think it will be considered viable.

I do not believe there would be any significant "ire of the playerbase", if EXP mechanics were changed to make grouping more desirable. Sure, as with any change, there is bound to be some people who are unhappy, but the benefits of this would blow the negatives out of the water. Soloing and duoing would still be completely viable/functional options, but they would no longer be the #1 option for quick levelling. I believe that is how it -should- be in an MMO. I do not speak for everyone, but I know there has been a number of occasions I have been out EXPing, in one form or another, and declined the option to group with extra people, entirely because of the loss which will occur to my EXP per hour. If SOE fixed this, I would actually be willing to invite random people to fill empty slots. That is my goal, bring people together, not push them apart.Like I said, you have put forward a couple of neat ideas. I just hope you can understand my preference toward presenting a simple idea/solution to SOE.

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Old 09-10-2012, 12:40 PM   #113
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Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:

We don't balance the game around power leveling. It is valid. Do it and have a good time at it, but we balance  experience assuming the people playing with you are contributing. With that in mind, this is an experience bonus and not a penalty. In all cases, adding another person to the group (up to 6, this breaks once you form a raid)  increases the amount of experience that the game awards per kill. If you were to form a group of 6 players, and each kill solo mobs, you would level faster than you would if you did it by yourself. These numbers changed based on various XP multipliers (Double XP, Encounter Bonus, XP Potions, and so on) and other things, but when the numbers start, you get about a 40% bonus to the total XP when you are grouped with 1 other player, and about a 60% bonus to the total XP when you are in a full group of 6.

So while I understand where you are coming from, from our perspective the XP for grouping is a bonus and not a penalty. This is only a penalty if the people in your group don't contribute at all. While we'll probably take a look at some aspects of the experience system before the expansion launches, we probably won't be changing the breakdown of experience for grouping by much, if at all.

This is an interesting topic to be sure, and first I'll just say that the OP is making a point using a personal tale to illustrate a social and personal connection between what is an out dated mechanic in an attempt to strike a balance between time spent and activities accomplished.

@ Lyndro, we (the player base) All understand your position and your comments, however, I'd have to ask it you understand what those comments imply...  EQ2 is 7+ years old and is increadibly top heavy.  Some could estimate that the "social" game, grouping/raiding at cap, consists of > 85% of the player base. 

In addition to that, SOE has recently placed a Gate in front of players barring players to the largest social aspect of the game, via the 280 AA watermark; and while the vast majority of the player base either understand or agree with that Gate being in place, the fact is that it is barring a certain amount of players from the largest social environment, which in turn has negative implications to the long term health of the game.

SOE is DEPENDING on the attraction of the 'game' to be enough incentive for players to suffer thought an anti-social environment which doesn't even remotely follow the same ruleset as the portion of the game where the vast majority of the populations is.

The simple fact that the word Powerleveling even exists in your game is enough of a fact to do something drastic to solve the issue; allowing the largest number of players to socially interact (to increase desire and interest in your product).

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Old 09-10-2012, 01:23 PM   #114
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people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

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Old 09-10-2012, 02:15 PM   #115
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LadyMist wrote:

people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

I think you meant to say people hit 92-320 in 2 days? And if so, were you trying to make any kind of relevant point with such? I am not seeing many people claim that levelling a single toon is too slow. Nor do any propositions seek to make that process faster.And just an FYI, the game has already been changed for the power leveller. It is called mentoring (which includes chronomentoring). There is also mercenaries (which automentor). There is also the ability to lock+grind AAs to supercharge your character strength (far beyond level-appropriate relevance). These are very real, standard parts of the game, whether people want to accept it or not. All of this combines to devastate the social gameplay design that EQ2 harbored for years.We're trying to get it fixed. It used to be good (for my EXP per hour) to fill my group. Now, it is not. Why do you seem so negative, toward the concept of being able to fill a group in EQ2, without the rate of EXP suffering dramatically for it? Would you care to explain your logic on this? Why would you care if a group can happily invite a 6th person, and not make the EXPing process approx 15% slower (per person)?The EXP system worked fine in 2004. But the game has evolved. The out-dated EXP system encourages anti-social gameplay for reasons clearly demonstrated. Refusing to let others join a group, because they would slow down EXP, is a coding abomination, not a social issue.

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Old 09-10-2012, 02:48 PM   #116
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LadyMist wrote:

people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

Powerlevelers are not gone the fastest, your just making up facts.   In fact, if I look at the people I know who do PL toons, they're among some of the longest veterans I know.   Myself included.   I've run a raiding guild in eq2 since day 1, with players that are still with me since that day.  Certainly we've brought in new people over the years, but all in all, the people I see PLing are like Mathrim, 7 year vets looking for more viable alts for grouping / raiding in order to augment/fill as needed.

In fact, this is the very reason my son asked me to PL a toon with him.  His main is a paladin and just not needed much in groups and raids anymore, so he really wanted a troub alt so he could get more play time in groups and raids.  PLing the toon only served to increase his retention time with the game.  Had his only option been to soloquest that troub up, he'd be playing more wow right now.

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Old 09-10-2012, 03:01 PM   #117
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Ulrichvon wrote:

LadyMist wrote:

people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

Powerlevelers are not gone the fastest, your just making up facts.   In fact, if I look at the people I know who do PL toons, they're among some of the longest veterans I know.   Myself included.   I've run a raiding guild in eq2 since day 1, with players that are still with me since that day.  Certainly we've brought in new people over the years, but all in all, the people I see PLing are like Mathrim, 7 year vets looking for more viable alts for grouping / raiding in order to augment/fill as needed.

In fact, this is the very reason my son asked me to PL a toon with him.  His main is a paladin and just not needed much in groups and raids anymore, so he really wanted a troub alt so he could get more play time in groups and raids.  PLing the toon only served to increase his retention time with the game.  Had his only option been to soloquest that troub up, he'd be playing more wow right now.

Nice catch, Ulrichvon. I agree entirely with what you said, because...I started EQ2 in Nov 2004. I also participate in occasional PLing, to help friends out, and for alt viability. I am still here.I also know numerous others who are long standing EQ2 vets (eg: they have CoV), and participate in PLing. They are still here.

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Old 09-10-2012, 03:05 PM   #118
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LadyMist wrote:

people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

^^ Thats is exactly opposite of the realality... PL'ers will PL regardless of whatever XP mechanic is in place.  The issue about ppl leaving sooner rather than sticking around are the people that don't have a PL'ers and don't have a network of people to group with in the dead lower levels.  Those people are -NOT- going to stick around for the year it takes them to get thier first toon to level cap where they might actually have a chance to group and raid with the MMO social population.

The XP in the lower levels was recently 'normalized', but it should be excalated so the lower people and the new folks can get to a point where they can actually play an MMO with a massive multiple player population rather than being forever stuck in an anti-social environment.

Hopefully, the new Agnostic mechanic can be used to balance some of that functionality, but the XP bonus penalty, can actually be applied as a penalty bonus, but I won't hold my breath.  SJ played with the idea of instant lv 90's, which I for one would support, since that is where the game starts for anyone that is not a pure crafter.  Holding people in the lower levels is a little more than a slow death to an old game. 

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Old 09-10-2012, 07:59 PM   #119
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LadyMist wrote:

people hit 1-92 in 2 days. It's fast enough. This game isn't to be changed for the powerleveler as they are the ones who generally are gone the fastest as they are the ones who blow through stuff. The exp system is Just fine the way it is. you don't need to get to 92 in 1 days isntead of 2. Nor does a full group need to get to 92 in 1 day instead of 2

The thread wasn't about PLing, but the dis-incentive to group due to people getting less XP/AA in a group. How about having no XP/AA bonus for a group at all? Just award us all the same XP/AA as if we'd solo killed the mob. I'm not asking for a bonus, just not a penalty.

I hope something is done before the next "X2 XP/AA No Grouping Weekend". The last one was 4 days of no groups at all with people slaying mobs until they passed out at the keyboard. I still have the letters QWERTY on my forehead.

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Old 09-10-2012, 09:48 PM   #120
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Ulrichvon wrote:

Juggercap wrote:

 The grouping penalty is incredibly silly, and it's always nice to see another specific example of why that is. I hope your son got close to where he wanted to be, and I hope that your guildies were accepting of the idea that you weren't spending your holiday weekend powerlevelling everything that moves when the penalty for grouping is so bad.

Thanks.

Accross the entire weekend, we only had 7 hours of total play time.  I had other commitments and couldn't complete the task.  He ended on level 85 with 285 AA.  The remaining bit I hope to help him finish over the next week or two as we do his myth and access quests and what not.  He had a blast doing what we set out to do.

Some of my guildies on the other hand are still giving me the cold shoulder cause I excluded them, and I hate that SoE put me in that position.  I would have gladly brought them along if it didn't greatly impact the time required to accomplish what I had promised.

You only had 7 hours and yet he made 85 and 280 AA . If anything SOE needs to tighten XP up. It is already rediculously easy to level up.  Fast XP and the care bear attitude that eveyone deserves an equal shot at everything is ruining not just this game but every MMO that caters to the thought process.

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