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Old 05-24-2005, 06:03 AM   #1
Blackdog183

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Ok I know that this issue has been beaten over time and time again, so why not 1 more round right.  This kinda got me a little peeved when people in the forums call me wrong when I tell them that certain classes get a better bonus for stats.  Its been shown that they do, but I will show some fresh screenies(taken about 15 mins ago) of myself and a 44 zerker.  Make your own conclusions. 
 
 
Heres a screenie of my char, with stats etc...
 
Now heres the screenie of the level 44 zerker...His bio is located at http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=264592114
 
 
As you can see the following is true:
 
1. I have far better stats in all of them...
2.My gear is equal to or better than his in every single slot(he has some green gear etc)
3. He has MORE hps than I do with lesser stats/gear
4. He has almost as much mitigation as I do with lower stats/gear
5. He has almost as much avoidance with FAR less AGI and NO SHIELD.
 
This is a warrior class with FAR lesser stats, comparable to lesser gear and no shield on that has damned near matching stats with a higher level better equipped BUFFED shadowknight.  Who can honestly sit there and say there isnt something wrong with that.  I ask SoE this, is your intention that gear doesent mean a damned thing in determining who is the better tank.  I mean cmon, this dudes stats are HELLA low compared to mine and he has MORE hps?  what the heck is that all about.
 
Please discuss folks.....
 
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Old 05-24-2005, 07:04 AM   #2
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I believe you, but that's because even Moorguard has said your right.
 
 
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:04 AM   #3
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Your hit points are 4242 and his are 4227... and you see his as "MORE" than yours?  *blink* But... to address your feelings of inadequacy: A shadowknight has spells and combat arts which deliver a no-power cost instant damage (i.e. harm touch), a feign death for a group member (i.e. graven embrace), a brief pet (i.e. tainted sacrament), lifetaps (i.e. consume vitae), etc A 'zerker has combat arts which increase his damage rate and damage amount (i.e. virtually all of them).  No heals, no instant no power attacks (and yes I know the shadowknight one has a looooong recast), no feign death for anyone, no pets, no lifetaps or other way to gain healing for himself or any party member. So..... are they equal?  no.  Are they balanced if you -only- look at the stats of their hit points, mitigation, avoidance, and the like? no.  Are they balanced if you look at them as a whole and realise the shadowknight has a heck of a lot more variety in what he can do? YES This goes for the brawlers and paladins, too.  Each of the fighter classes is different.  If you look at one isolated aspect it will -appear- they are not balanced, but if you look at the totality of what they bring to the group, they are. I play a paladin as my adventuring main.  She is now 32 (with combat XP disabled most of the time).  I tank.  In fact I have been told by more than a few healers that I tank better than the 'zerks or guardians they have grouped with mostly because I actually DO use all of my tools. Do I want paladins "balanced" so they can be guardians or beserkers?  Heck no!
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:26 AM   #4
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he has a point..going by stats he should be blowing that Bers out of the water. Thats sad and theres no excuse for that.  How can u sit there and justify that its ok because he has 13 or so more hit points than the bers? give me a break. That SK has 67 more sta points than the Bers. SIXTY SEVEN.
 
And here we go with the DPS. You dont even know what you 're talking about. SK's and bers are very close on DPS. Evac makes no difference in combat because almost all grps worth their salt have a scout of a mage type that can evac.
 
You're a lvl 30ish Paly, eh? Again, give me a break. What do you know about Paladins yet? You are only half way there.
 
The point is no matter what skills they have. The difference in numbers should be huge. If not whats the point of stats? you might as well trash them.
 
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:38 AM   #5
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� 
You're a lvl 30ish Paly, eh? Again, give me a break. What do you know about Paladins yet? You are only half way there.
� 
--------------------�  You had me up till this... um When the max lvl is 100 are you going to admit you didn't know what you were talking about @ lv 50?�  " Halfway" :smileywink:
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:47 AM   #6
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NO
 
...because right now I have a ton more experience playing my char than a lvl 30ish paly. Experience comes in lvls. If a lvl 84 paladin compared his numbers to a lvl 84 Berserker and said it was screwed up i woould not presume to tell the Sk he was wrong, based on my 50 lvls.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:10 AM   #7
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I was pointing out the utilities of the shadowknight, the other tools in the form of spell lines, he has in relation to the 'zerk.  The 'zerk has a single solitary purpose and a single focus to his combat arts (faster and more damage).  The 'zerk -does- get more HP and mitigation and whatnot from his stats than a shadowknight because of the focused purpose.  The same holds true for paladins. THAT is what I was saying, not that I am an authority on paladins or even on level 50 raiding.  But.. I assure you, I know my role in raids as a paladin is most likely not to be a tank.  I have vastly more tools than those who solely stand there and get hit.  When I am in a group with a guardian or 'zerk that is about my same level and has decent gear (mine is admittedly more than decent), I am all for him being the one getting the beating with me pulling a secondary role which usually involves off-tanking and some healing.  I routinely, though, duo with another paladin or trio with the same paladin and a templar.  Of us, I tank because I have the mindset for paladin -group- tanking.  Paladins and Shadow Knights have a completely different focus and utility than Guardians and Beserkers.  Monks and Bruisers are also different.  If you compare ONLY one aspect and not the whole, you will see inequities.  If you look at the whole, you will see more balance. 
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:14 AM   #8
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I call Pure Bull Scat on this. I have L48 Berserker with good gear. I can only get my Hps that high if I stack all my self buffs, and thats at L48. That Berserker is buffed up by another in his group. No way a 44 zerker can get that many Hps with self buffs even if he stacked all 3. I can only hit that at L48 by stacking the 4 I have. I got a new one at L47. Its adept 3 too.

Your Hps are unbuffed and his are buffed. Pure Bull Scat. Berserkers got the lowest Hps of all the plate classes minus their self buffs.

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Old 05-24-2005, 10:21 AM   #9
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According to the profiles you have about 1k hitpoints more than him with both of you unbuffed. He does not have "almost as much avoidance".  There's a 9% difference there, which is somewhat more significant than you seem to think. What exactly are you complaining about, that he was better buffed than you?  Did you even look at the profiles?  They've basically made a fool out of your entire post because it's clear you didn't really think it through before you posted it.

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Old 05-24-2005, 10:25 AM   #10
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Ethelwolf wrote:

I call Pure Bull Scat on this. I have L48 Berserker with good gear. I can only get my Hps that high if I stack all my self buffs, and thats at L48. That Berserker is buffed up by another in his group. No way a 44 zerker can get that many Hps with self buffs even if he stacked all 3. I can only hit that at L48 by stacking the 4 I have. I got a new one at L47. Its adept 3 too.

Your Hps are unbuffed and his are buffed. Pure Bull Scat. Berserkers got the lowest Hps of all the plate classes minus their self buffs.




Bullscat eh, look at my Mit number, see how its green, that because I was buffed, look at his, UNBUFFED, hence while, and we had no healer or troub class in the group, so guess what, no hp buff or AC buff from a healer.  Only thing I had on me was my self buffs and gift of armament from a pally friend.  So BS that my friend.

He was invited to the group, but on the OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP when I examined him, was curious to see what DW weapons he was using when I noticed his stats/hps/ac ratio.

 

As far as the BS little argument about utility/variety...

Yes SK's do get lifetaps, that heal me for less than 2% of my total unbuffed hitpoints(about 4k) for well upwards of 130 power cost(IE way too expensive given the return)

Yes SK's do get wards, that actually prevent about 100 points of damage, for over 150 power cost.

Yes SK's get Harm touch line, with its rediculous timer and the fact that mobs resist it well over 75% of the time.

Yes SK's get scrwed out of of ANY benifit of a ranged slot item

Yes SK's get less stats PER POINT than warriors....making the fact that we are better geared(harder worked on) mean approx zero.

Yes we get a pet that we can summon during battle, yes the 2nd version is a decent pet, I wont deny that for a second, even if it went broken by the devs for over a month.

As to our young pally friend, first off, your low level ,your just starting into T4, ALOT and i do mean ALOT of things change as you progress towards the endgame.  I will simply say this, do try to keep your ill advised and quite frankly unknowledgable comments to yourself.  Unless youve spent the 10+ plat on gear and spells that I have to be matched in stats by some dude running around in a few pieces of ebon armor and the rest is junk to be honest, without even having a shield on...then please dont talk.  The entire point of hat im saying is this, gear and stats SHOULD make a huge differnce between tanks, even of diff archtypes, I mean cmon theres a huge gap in our stats, why in the hell should he be even comin close to me in anything....simple, he shouldnt.  You cant really use the utility or variety argument one bit, because honestly if SK's would get fixed, Id be inclined to agree /w you on that point, but as it stands right now, the power costs on our so called utility/variety whatever u wanna call em spells is entirely out of line.

Also, Your a paladin, you might not mind so much that your stats are outdone by someone in lesser gear with lesser str, sta, agi, wis, and int because you have those nifty little heals that will heal for upwards of 1k at 42(btw my best friend is 43 pally and heals me all the time, i know what can be done).  I dont get even close to that, my MOST powerful lifetap(consume vitae ad3) gives me back a whopping 89 HPS, thats right 89.  Thats pretty damned crappy considering that one imparticular costs 116 power.  Starting to understand now where the imbalance is?  This has gone on for months, and SoE just hasnt realized yet that all tanks want is equality, not sameness, but equality.  Meaning that a player who spends that 10+ plat on his gear, has several master spells, and AD3's and not a damned one spell below ad1 SHOULD be the better tank, not the guy withhalf decent gear and app IV spells be the better tank because SoE makes it so.  That ultimatly folks is the problem.

Message Edited by Blackdog183 on 05-23-2005 11:32 PM

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Old 05-24-2005, 10:30 AM   #11
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Amise wrote:
According to the profiles you have about 1k hitpoints more than him with both of you unbuffed.

He does not have "almost as much avoidance".  There's a 9% difference there, which is somewhat more significant than you seem to think.

What exactly are you complaining about, that he was better buffed than you?  Did you even look at the profiles?  They've basically made a fool out of your entire post because it's clear you didn't really think it through before you posted it.


Message Edited by Amise on 05-23-2005 11:26 PM



Just so you have no trouble with the math...

4211-3871=340  That a long way away from 1k now isnt it.

Guess where the majority of that avoidance differnce comes from, that thing on my back called a shield, if he had one on that was even half decent his avoidance is within 3% of mine, not such a big diff now is it.

So whos the fool?

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Old 05-24-2005, 05:27 PM   #12
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*laughs*

You always just seem to sound like the fool there Blackdog.  Sorry you don't like your class.  Perhaps you should try a Guardian, then you would complain about the difference in damage a guardian does vs. a bruiser.  Your one of those people who would complain if they gave everyone free money, you included.

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Old 05-24-2005, 05:49 PM   #13
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Blackdog,

I'm just a lowly level 31 Ranger, so perhaps you can explain a few things to me.  I looked at the stats of the two characters.  The shadowknight is going to fare much better in any battle unless I'm missing something.  Ignoring everything else the two keys are mitigation follwoed by hit points.  if the two of you were facing the exact same mob and they were a tank type you would get hit bout 35% of the time and he would egt hit about 45% of the time (100 - the mitigation).  So he will take about 25-30% more damage than you.  So when he dies you would still have had about 800-900 hit points left.  If we expand that because you are getting heals the same ratio will still hold.  So in effect you have 20% more hit points than he does (mitigation and hitpoints).  if we take into account other types of atatck for the most part your resists are way above his. 

 

What am I missing?  Does mitigation not work like this?

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Old 05-24-2005, 05:50 PM   #14
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now boys, all I have to say is fear not, its obvious for the most part this game caters to tanks... don't worry if there's a prob, I'm sure your class is one of the top on the fix list; and casters being on the lower part... sad really

 but go ahead flame away

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Old 05-24-2005, 06:17 PM   #15
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Heal and wards amount to one thing and that is hit points. Buffs add HPs before the fight and wards and heals add HPs during the fight. A heal is nothing more then a HP buff it just works in a different way. I had this same problem with a Pally, He was all worried about HPs after buffs and I told him you got heals baby you can add your HPs back on during the fight. Berserker has not one heal or ward. What we have before the fight is all we get. Berserker HP buffs are all group buffs. You want an extra 900 Hps group with a Berserker who triple stacks his buffs. If you want more then 1k extra HP group with a berserker who can quad stack his buffs. The point I am making is that whatever extra HPs a berserker has, the whole group gets as well. Can you ward the group and heal the group, or can you only take care of yourself with those skills.

Why are you wearing journymens boots? They dont have any stamina at all. A good pair of black ebon platemail tonlets will increase your Hps by over 150. The gear you wear makes a difference. My Berserker may not have maximum Hps, but I made the choice to increase my avoidance instead. That means wearing gear with max agility over gear with max stamina. You choose what to wear, the whole argument is pointless. You want more Hps chuck the Jboots and wear something else instead, also maximize the stamina on all your gear. You may lose some mitigation  and avoidance, but trade offs are trade offs.

 

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Old 05-24-2005, 06:43 PM   #16
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For the record you avoidance is far better than mine (42 Ranger)  I have 180 Agi self buffed and my avoidance is 60.4%  I gaurentee your Mitigation far exceedes mine.  Now I understand I'm not a tank and I don't expect to be but keep in mind even a 3% bump in avoidance is huge.  Going form 138agi to 180 agi gives me a whopping 1% increase in Avoidance. 
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Old 05-24-2005, 06:46 PM   #17
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Ummm just a question, no flaming intended.

It was my nuderstanding, that the figures for Mitigation and Avoidance, are not final. They depend on your level.

He is a level 44 Zerker, so against a Level 44 Solo creature, they are his Mit and Avoidance stats.

You are a level 46 SK, so your Mit and Avoidance figures are against Level 46 Solo creatures.

If you both fought a Level 46 creature, then yoru Mit/Av would remain the same, but his, in effect, would actually be far lower due to the level difference.

As for HPS, yes he is buffed, so are you, and you have more. No argument with that. In fact, when he hits your level, he will probably have more than you, but you have other abilities to offset this (before you flame, I know they suck, but you have them).

That was my understanding of Avoidance and Mitigation though.
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Old 05-24-2005, 07:41 PM   #18
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*sigh* No one will be happy until all classes are exactly the same.
 
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:21 PM   #19
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If your comparison was a shadow knight to a paladin then I would fully and completely agree that the shadow knight has issues and is not "equal".  Yes, I am aware that several shadow knight spells and combat arts don't work as they should.  Getting THAT rectified is what you should be spending energy on, not trying to get your stats to match a 'zerker.  Shadow knights are the other side of the coin from paladins.  Those 2 classes should be pretty comparable just with opposing effect.  The 2 types of crusaders should be "balanced" against each other since they are supposed to, more or less, fill the same niche, just from differing philosophies. Spells and combat arts (and all in-game items) should match their description.  Oh.. and as for level... The "balancing" should come from the lowest levels and be disseminated through the top.  There shouldn't be drastic changes at thus and so level.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:16 PM   #20
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Rijacki - you are  100% right.

Not to mention their are numerous ways to inhance your character. I choose STA everytime I get a chance and almost always I have more HP's than any other tank my level or higher (sometimes).

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Old 05-24-2005, 09:17 PM   #21
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Ok ladies and Gents, I think some of you kinda missed the point of what I was getting at.  A while ago moorgard had said that pretty much a tanks gear/stats/upgrades would play into what quality of tank he/she is.  This proves that statement is pretty much false.  For the record NO, most tanks dont want all tank classes to be the exact same, what they DO want is balance.  That balance doesent exist right now.  SoE is doing a combat system revamp, and in the process pretty much reworking everything about the way we fight.  I put this out there so that hopefully they will see the current problem.  A tank that spends a crapload of time and money into his char should be a FAR better tank than someone who doesent, regardless of class.  The tank with better stats by far should have more avoidance, more hps and more power by alot.  Theres a 50 point(or so im not looking at the exact number atm) difference between his stats and mine, that should mean a big difference in stats.  Im higher level, which means I can utilize more of the AC off the gear I am wearing(as im closer to the mastery end of the gear), my AC should be a far cry better.  Can anyone honestly say that isnt how it should be.

Once again, IF and this is a pretty friggen big IF SoE would actually make SK skills worthwhile, then ya maybe it wouldnt matter so much.  Guess what tho, its taken 100's if not thousands of posts on a single SK skill being BROKEN COMPLETLY to even get them to acknowledge it.  Another one that went broken for 4 months they never did acknowledge, they just stealth fixed it and never said a word.  Hopefully people can begin to realize the problem isnt that all tanks should be the same, no that would be very boring.  The problem is that a tank with far better gear should be a far better tank, plain and simple.

 

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Old 05-24-2005, 09:23 PM   #22
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Rijacki wrote:
If your comparison was a shadow knight to a paladin then I would fully and completely agree that the shadow knight has issues and is not "equal".  Yes, I am aware that several shadow knight spells and combat arts don't work as they should.  Getting THAT rectified is what you should be spending energy on, not trying to get your stats to match a 'zerker. 

Shadow knights are the other side of the coin from paladins.  Those 2 classes should be pretty comparable just with opposing effect.  The 2 types of crusaders should be "balanced" against each other since they are supposed to, more or less, fill the same niche, just from differing philosophies.

Spells and combat arts (and all in-game items) should match their description. 

Oh.. and as for level... The "balancing" should come from the lowest levels and be disseminated through the top.  There shouldn't be drastic changes at thus and so level.



Lets not even get started on pally/SK balance, cause we all know it isnt even close, and would just turn into a huge argument.  As far as workin on getting spells.combat arts for SK fixed, trust me on this one, weve been down that road with the devs.  Even getting them to admit theres a problem is like pulling teeth.  Getting them to actually fix is it near impossible.  Look at graven embrace, its timer went broken for 4 months.  Look at the tainted essense spells, they went completly broken for well over a month, almost 2.  Every single problem that Shadowknigts have brought to the table has gone unfixed for a long period of time.  So yes, Rijacki its not lack of effort on our part.

I dont want my stats to match a zerker, by no stretch of the word is that what I want.  They shouldnt even have been close, as I have far better AGI/STA my stats should be FAR better.  I do agree with you on the point that balance should be equal at all level ranges, it isnt and we all know it isnt.

Im just hope it doesent take the eq2 team the same length of time to realize what the eq1 team finnaly came around to.

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Old 05-24-2005, 10:49 PM   #23
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Blackdog183 wrote:

Even getting them to admit theres a problem is like pulling teeth.  Getting them to actually fix is it near impossible. 


I am an alchemist, I know this tooooo well.  And then when they do "fix" something, at times it makes it worse even if they can point and say "it works now" (i.e. 2 poison types being exactly opposite of their descriptions because they were previously not procing so the procing opposites were just copied over on top of them). As for gear mattering.  At 32, I have better gear than my guild leader's level 34 Guardian.  While she can stand there and take a beating longer than I can (more HP), I actually am better at avoiding hits and keeping the taunt while tanking.  That's a combination of gear and player using the tools.  Since I have better gear, though, should I have more HP and mitigation?  no.  Part of a warrior's given skill-set, what makes a warrior different from a crusader or brawler, is the optimisation of certain stats, including AC, on gear and by character.  A guardian and paladin of the exact same level and same gear WILL be different, the guardian will maximise the stats and have a higher mitigation and HP.  That's part of being a warrior.  It's not inequity, it's class differences.  The crusader's given skill-set should be giving him far more utility which is the trade-off on the gear and stat optimisation.  Same, too, with brawlers.  Brawlers have a higher avoidance, their skill-set maximises that aspect, with a different type of untility (including higher damage output) than crusaders or warriors.  This doesn't make them unequal, this makes them different.  All three types (and their sub-classes) approach a battle from a different perspective and cannot and should not be equal (as Moorguard's post also confirmed) when attempting to approach the battle from the same perspective as a different class. There are not jsut 4 classes in EQ2.  There are 4 archetypes that branch to 12 classes which then branch to 24 sub-classes, specialisations in a field.  Each of the 3 classes of an archetype ARE different with a different perspective to offer in battle.  Each sub-class further specialises, giving yet another narrower persepective. For Wizards vs Warlocks, the difference is in the type of magic they do,but their damage output, resists aside, should be roughly similar... but I know, it's not, and that needs to be balanced, but within the class of sorcerer, not comparing a wizard to a coercer, which is an enchanter, or a necromancer, which is a summoner since those both have differences starting at the class level. For Paladins vs Shadow Knights, likewise the difference is in the damage they do (as well as which city they can call home).  They should otherwise be roughly balanced against each other as they are both still crusaders, but they won't directly compare to a Guardian or Beserker because of the differences that should be inherent between warrior and crusader.
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Old 05-24-2005, 11:12 PM   #24
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The way the game stands right now gear means very little if any at all!!  Your level is 99% of your power, everything else means squat.  I wish gear would mean more in this game because it would add  stratigy to what you pick to put on.  Sadly this is NOT the case at all.  You can take all your gear off and fight a caster mob that is 7 levels below you and you will resist darn near 100% of his spells (yet your resist stats are zero).  Why?  because your level is the factor not your gear.  That same mob used to land spells all the time on you just 7 levels ago with full gear on, and now with no gear it can't hit you.
 
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Message Edited by Yennik on 05-24-2005 12:15 PM

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Old 05-24-2005, 11:50 PM   #25
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-- QUOTE --

It was my nuderstanding, that the figures for Mitigation and Avoidance, are not final. They depend on your level.

He is a level 44 Zerker, so against a Level 44 Solo creature, they are his Mit and Avoidance stats.

You are a level 46 SK, so your Mit and Avoidance figures are against Level 46 Solo creatures.

If you both fought a Level 46 creature, then yoru Mit/Av would remain the same, but his, in effect, would actually be far lower due to the level difference.

-- END QUOTE --

That is my understanding as well.  Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? 

I also agree with the previous post regarding level vs. gear.  Gear seems of little value when you consider a mob 7 levels ago that ate you alive in your best equipment that now can't touch you in your Isle of Refuge clothing alone.  Level is truly a decisive factor at this stage in the game.

Thanks,
Kalen

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Old 05-25-2005, 12:08 AM   #26
Nocifer Deathblade

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Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:09 AM   #27
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Nocifer Deathblade wrote:
Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..



Do you happen to remeber this statement made by Moorgard a while ago...
{....}
Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.
{....}
 
This was speaking on balance amongst tanks, basically he WAS saying that a tank who has spent more into gear/spells SHOULD be a much better tank.  Thats where this entire gripe is based.  Bascially what he said is false, as all hell.  A shadowknight who spends more into his gear/spells/stats SHOULD be a much better tank in all areas than a zerker who doesent.  Thats what he was saying there.  Anyone care to disagree?
 
Also, Im still looking for the post he made a while ago concerning training traits/racial traits not being a huge determining factor in tank balance, when I find it, I will be glad to quote it here.  It was a concern a while ago, and if his training choices CAN make that much of a diff. then perhaps they need to be looked at as well.
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Old 05-25-2005, 04:16 AM   #28
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As you can see the following is true:
 
1. I have far better stats in all of them...
2.My gear is equal to or better than his in every single slot(he has some green gear etc)
3. He has MORE hps than I do with lesser stats/gear
4. He has almost as much mitigation as I do with lower stats/gear
5. He has almost as much avoidance with FAR less AGI and NO SHIELD.
 



I would call 200 mitigation and 9% avoidance a pretty big difference.  Also like someone mentioned, you wards/life taps are essentially hp buffs.  They might not be overpowering but every little bit adds up.  Add up all the heals/wards you can put on in a fight and add it to your hp. 
 
 You strength is also higher, and the persona window doesn't show how that makes you char better.
 
Basically, just comparing the two persona windows is not enough information to base your argument one.  Do some parsin on damage given/recieved and come back when you have a real argument.
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:53 AM   #29
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Moorgard wrote:
The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming. We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale. With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle. Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.
 

That is the full quote from Moorgard that Blackdog183 selectively mis-quoted from.  Please note that Moorgard is addressing the class balance changes that were rolled out to the Test server and are still being worked on and tested at this time.
 
The point I am trying to make is that this argument is irrelevant as this same Shadow Knight and Berserker will look a whole lot different once these combat changes on the Test server are complete.  I am going to reserve judgement until how these work in practice on the Test server once they are nearing completion.
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:56 AM   #30
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Blackdog183 wrote:

Nocifer Deathblade wrote:
Don't forget that players chose their character traits every 2 levels beyond lvl 8 all way to lvl 44 or 46 can make a big difference that gear couldn't match. Comparing 2 profiles alone on gear isn't enough. They need to compare traits too..

Do you happen to remeber this statement made by Moorgard a while ago...
{....}
Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.
{....}
 
This was speaking on balance amongst tanks, basically he WAS saying that a tank who has spent more into gear/spells SHOULD be a much better tank.  Thats where this entire gripe is based.  Bascially what he said is false, as all hell.  A shadowknight who spends more into his gear/spells/stats SHOULD be a much better tank in all areas than a zerker who doesent.  Thats what he was saying there.  Anyone care to disagree?
 
Also, Im still looking for the post he made a while ago concerning training traits/racial traits not being a huge determining factor in tank balance, when I find it, I will be glad to quote it here.  It was a concern a while ago, and if his training choices CAN make that much of a diff. then perhaps they need to be looked at as well.

As someone earlier in the thread mentioned racial traits and training can make a big difference (regardless of whether moorgard would like to admit that or not). First off he's a dwarf...that immediately gives him a +3%hp trait and +5 defense trait available (the +5 defense adding to avoidance). Second he's a zerk so he has a lvl 40 training buff available to him that adds +0.6% avoidance and near 100 mitigation.

Anyways your comparison was doomed from the start. You can't compare 2 classes at different levels with different buffs on and varying trait selections and expect it to show much of anything.  Get a zerk and an SK of same level, race (same trait selection preferably though that isn't really realistic) as well as comparably geared and buffed if you would like to demonstrate an imbalance. As it stands now they're to many factors for anyone to take them all into account.

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