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Old 06-24-2005, 12:34 AM   #31
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Nope, no Guardian yet, just my Monk and Zerker, and most recently a Fury. I'm a roleplayer at heart and Guardians just don't inspire me. I keep an occasional eye on the Guardian board, though; there's some keen minds here, even if some of you are a bit touchy about the whole Monk/Guardian thing. SMILEY Good to see you too.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:13 AM   #32
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FamilyManFirst wrote:
Well, Poochymama, since you decided to cross-post, I'll follow along.

First off, the Big Combat Revamp is turned off on the Test server "right now." If you're seeing Guardians on Test with 25% Avoidance right now then the Guardians are doing something screwy because they're operating under the same combat rules as Live. You don't see Guardians on Live with 25% Avoidance right now, do you?

Secondly, don't exaggerate. Monks do not kill mobs twice as fast as Guardians. It doesn't happen when soloing (unless the Guardian doesn't know what s/he's doing) and it particularly doesn't happen when grouping (with the Guardian or Monk tanking), as other party members' DPS diminishes the difference between Monks and Guardians significantly. Therefore, Monks don't take half the number of strikes that Guardians do, they take maybe 4/5, or at most, 3/4 of the strikes Guardians do.

Finally, I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should go back and question them. There will be a 15% base difference in Mitigation between Heavy and Light armor. If the Monk had about 45% Mitigation then the Guardian should have had around 60% Mitigation; if the Guardian had about 50% Mitigation then the Monk should have had around 35% Mitigation. Since the spell/CA changes haven't even hit Test yet the difference should be even bigger as Guardians currently get more Mitigation buffs than Monks do (in fact, I don't think a Monk gets any Mitigation buffs, save the one that stuns them while it's up, the Face of the Mountain line).

Don't go quoting numbers that are obviously wrong about a system that is currently turned off and then exaggerate about the results; it only decreases your credibility.


First off when i first made this post thats how it was on test. Secondly im not exaggerating a guardian with full legendary armor will hover around 50% mitigation. A monk with full legendary armor will hover around 40% mitigation. A monk with full fabled armor will be at about 45% mitigation and a guard with full fabled armor will be around 55% mitigation. And  as far as monks killing a solo mob twice as fast, thats true because monks usually parse twice as high as a guardian. If anything they need to fix the way avoidance scales with lvl, and then monks need to be nerfed not upgraded.
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Old 06-24-2005, 10:38 AM   #33
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For one, guardians can DPS just about as good as us.  Sigon is often within 10%~ of my DPS on raids.

For two, now you are asking for a monk nerf?  That's nice.

For three I doubt you play on test, as all your numbers and information are inaccurate, so how about you just shush up, with your flame threads and nerf calls.

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Old 06-24-2005, 12:08 PM   #34
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Having lots of alts I read almost all the class boards.

You can see posts by this guys in :

Warlocks forums asking for Warlock DPS increase

Wizard forums asking why Warlock DPS is so high and why arent Warlocks nerfed

He seems to be getting some kick out of threads like this :smileyvery-happy:

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Old 06-24-2005, 02:17 PM   #35
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Gage-Mikel wrote:

For one, guardians can DPS just about as good as us.  Sigon is often within 10%~ of my DPS on raids.

This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you

I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.

For two, now you are asking for a monk nerf?  That's nice.

A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen/

For three I doubt you play on test, as all your numbers and information are inaccurate, so how about you just shush up, with your flame threads and nerf calls.

Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said. 



Here we go again....  :smileysad:

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Old 06-24-2005, 02:57 PM   #36
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uglak wrote:

This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you.  I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.

Ask him yourself.  I have two fabled weapons and 10 Adept 3s CAs.  As for zerker haste I have my own that is in the 40s % wise.  Our groups (except MT) are normally pretty well rounded.  I don't give a crap if you think I'm lying or not.  Sigon can break 200 dps fairly often, especially in the Zek raid.  So yes, my statement was the truth.  As for "not closing my mouth and hitting my CAs" I routinely use my CA's as they refresh, and I'm one of the rare ones that actually can and does go OOM.  Care to put your foot in your mouth anymore?

A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen.

Sure, that's right.  I haven't been asking for monks to get made into better tanks, just for guardians to be nerfed.  Yeah right.  I was one of the first proponents for different raid mob types (to facilitate different types of tanks) and I was one of the first monks to state on these forums that our DPS should be lowered (or scouts raised), so don't even go there.  And "waaay" down is ludicrous, since SKs routinely outdamage me, as do zerkers, not to mention guardians coming close (when not tanking).

Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said.

I didn't say anything about playing on test, I merely stated my doubts that the OP has first hand test server experience.  No, I don't need any cookies for joining FoH.  Thanks though.  As for my "stuff" being inaccurate, whatever you say slick.  You are one of the biggest advocates of talking trash without nothing to back it up but craziness.  So why would your opinion matter to me.



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Old 06-24-2005, 04:28 PM   #37
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Gage-Mikel wrote:


uglak wrote:

This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you.  I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.

Ask him yourself.  I have two fabled weapons and 10 Adept 3s CAs.  As for zerker haste I have my own that is in the 40s % wise.  Our groups (except MT) are normally pretty well rounded.  I don't give a crap if you think I'm lying or not.  Sigon can break 200 dps fairly often, especially in the Zek raid.  So yes, my statement was the truth.  As for "not closing my mouth and hitting my CAs" I routinely use my CA's as they refresh, and I'm one of the rare ones that actually can and does go OOM.  Care to put your foot in your mouth anymore?

A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen.

Sure, that's right.  I haven't been asking for monks to get made into better tanks, just for guardians to be nerfed.  Yeah right.  I was one of the first proponents for different raid mob types (to facilitate different types of tanks) and I was one of the first monks to state on these forums that our DPS should be lowered (or scouts raised), so don't even go there.  And "waaay" down is ludicrous, since SKs routinely outdamage me, as do zerkers, not to mention guardians coming close (when not tanking).

Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said.

I didn't say anything about playing on test, I merely stated my doubts that the OP has first hand test server experience.  No, I don't need any cookies for joining FoH.  Thanks though.  As for my "stuff" being inaccurate, whatever you say slick.  You are one of the biggest advocates of talking trash without nothing to back it up but craziness.  So why would your opinion matter to me.



Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 06-24-2005 03:59 AM



I do not care if my "opnion" matters to you or not.   But when you post BS, I will call it BS so others do not get confused.   And yes,  most of yours are in fact BS.   Including this one.     But, I will say, your a legend in your own mind.
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Old 06-24-2005, 04:31 PM   #38
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At the end of the day, nerf or no nerf, there is only 1 (or maybe 2) MT by raid, and reading descriptions of each class, Guardian should be the best class to the do the job. Other tank class should be able to do MT too, it's just going to be easier for a guardian. After the class revamp, if any other class is better MT than guardian, it's just going to be temporary and i wouldn't worry about it. Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt. On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail. ZEK is a very bad example for DPS parsing and you know it, all skills used in Zek are not intended to be used on other raids (Tremor, taunting assault). Don't bring zek for DPS arguments As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro. Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class. If you look at all fantasy books/games monk are not meant to be MT. I think it was a mistake from Sony to put it in the fighter archtype, they should have created a specific archtype for them. They should be the ultimate pullers but Sony see that as cheat i guessSMILEY Sirriun

Message Edited by Sirrion77 on 06-24-2005 05:34 AM

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Old 06-24-2005, 04:45 PM   #39
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FamilyManFirst wrote:
Nope, no Guardian yet, just my Monk and Zerker, and most recently a Fury. I'm a roleplayer at heart and Guardians just don't inspire me. I keep an occasional eye on the Guardian board, though; there's some keen minds here, even if some of you are a bit touchy about the whole Monk/Guardian thing. SMILEY Good to see you too.


Hrmm, never going to come to the dark side eh?    Glad your still around, even though we have to argue most of the time. 
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Glad some peeps still enjoy the game,  as well as arguing on messageboards while your stuck at work. 
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:46 PM   #40
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Poochymama p wrote:First off when i first made this post thats how it was on test. Secondly im not exaggerating a guardian with full legendary armor will hover around 50% mitigation. A monk with full legendary armor will hover around 40% mitigation. A monk with full fabled armor will be at about 45% mitigation and a guard with full fabled armor will be around 55% mitigation. And as far as monks killing a solo mob twice as fast, thats true because monks usually parse twice as high as a guardian. If anything they need to fix the way avoidance scales with lvl, and then monks need to be nerfed not upgraded.
Poochymama, as near as I can tell, you first posted this on 6/19. The combat changes on Test have been turned off since 5/13. Since your first post on these forums is on 5/14 I find it highly doubtful that you have any first-hand information or, for that matter, second-hand information, on how the Big Combat Revamp affects mitigation or avoidance.Secondly, Monks usually parse twice as high as a Guardian because, in a group together, Monks are doing DPS and Guardians are tanking. I repeat, when soloing, Monks' DPS is not 2x that of Guardians', it's more around 1.25x; moreover, when grouping, the DPS difference between a Monk and a Guardian when performing the same role is even less significant because it is eclipsed by the other party members' DPS.Once again, based on the info in the Test Server Update Notes about the Big Combat Revamp, the unbuffed mitigation difference between a Monk wearing Light Armor and a Guardian wearing Heavy Armor of similar quality should be about 15%. Since you're quoting numbers at (previously) 5% to (now) 10% it appears to me that your base info is wrong. Either wait until the Big Combat Revamp is reactivated (should be soon according to Moorgard) and get some new numbers or go ask some different testers what their mitigation and avoidance was while the Big Combat Revamp was active.Until then, these posts are just flames seeking attention.
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:52 PM   #41
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Sirrion77 wrote:
At the end of the day, nerf or no nerf, there is only 1 (or maybe 2) MT by raid, and reading descriptions of each class, Guardian should be the best class to the do the job.  Descriptions are flavor for roleplaying, not key to class balance.

Other tank class should be able to do MT too, it's just going to be easier for a guardian.  Of course, that's a given.  Hopefully they can add some raid mobs where guardians aren't the preferred tank, but I'm not holding my breath.

After the class revamp, if any other class is better MT than guardian, it's just going to be temporary and i wouldn't worry about it.  We don't have to tank better, just close.

Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt. Why would blunt resistant matter?  I can do all 3 damage types.  I've seen plenty of parses with Sigon around 214~ and me around 241~ dps.  Wooo big difference isn't it?

On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.  Yup, I've done close to 300 (never broke it) and I've seen Sigon do almost 220.  Wow, such a big DPS difference between our classes, its almost as big as the tanking differences /sarcasm

ZEK is a very bad example for DPS parsing and you know it, all skills used in Zek are not intended to be used on other raids (Tremor, taunting assault). Don't bring zek for DPS arguments  Who cares?  It doesn't matter, its one instance, we do every 36 hours, where well played guardians can almost DPS equally to a monk.  Please tell me any instance, where a x4 can be tanked successfully by a monk, let alone that lets a monk tank equally well to a guardian.  I'll help you out, there isn't.

As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.  Funny, my feelings about monks also.  I rolled a fighter to tank, if I wanted to do melee DPS I'd have rolled a scout.

Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class. If you look at all fantasy books/games monk are not meant to be MT.  I'm not reading a book, and I'm not playing another game, I'm playing EQ2.  The devs said monks are tanks in this game, not me.

I think it was a mistake from Sony to put it in the fighter archtype, they should have created a specific archtype for them. They should be the ultimate pullers but Sony see that as cheat i guessSMILEY  Yeah, well I think it was a mistake to put guardians in the fighter archetype, I think all you should be able to do give mitigation to other people, a buff bot if you will.  Seems like we all have bad ideas, eh?

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Old 06-24-2005, 11:10 PM   #42
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Well   how i understand it, monk should be good MT due to it's avoidance (100% i guess) and Guardian for it's mitigation. Right now Guardian can get 95% mitig and 100% avoid (won't even talk about defence). The only instance where monk would be good MT is when you have 20 adds or ^^^ hitting very fast and low dmg, but with smart positioning of mob half would hit you back ... so not viable, for the ^^^ reactive would trigger a lot faster so no need avoid. They just stated Monk is in group 3 for DPS as for other fighters it's  in group 4. Monk can tank for single groups, not raid. I doubt they ever will sorry. Sirriun
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:13 PM   #43
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Sirrion77 wrote:Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt.
10% less seems a little small, although it might be true raid-buffed, I'm not sure. However, a Monk focusing on DPS will only do about 25% to 30% more DPS than a Guardian focusing on DPS, based on my, admittedly limited, info.

On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.
Ain't numbers great? If a Monk does "close" to 300 DPS, say 290, and a Guardian can do a little over 200 DPS, say 210 (although Gage says they can hit 220), then the Monk is doing 38% more DPS than the Guardian (32% if the Guardian can hit 220). That's a little high by my estimates but nowhere near the 100% ("twice the DPS") that people like to bandy about - not you, Sirrion, but others in this thread.

As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.
I'd think that you would care since otherwise you're stuck competing for that 1 or 2 Tank slots in a group/raid. However, if you don't care, others do. One-trick classes that fill extremely limited slots don't do well; they certainly aren't balanced.

Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class.
I take umbrage with this comment, Sirrion. In EQ2 a Monk is a Fighter, ergo a Tank class. You may think that Monks shouldn't be in the Fighter Archetype, fine, but you didn't design the game, SOE did. The fact is that, in EQ2, Monks are Tanks. Deal with it.
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:21 PM   #44
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Gage-Mikel wrote:
Descriptions are flavor for roleplaying, not key to class balance.

That's not true of other  archtypes.  For example, there's a huge difference between wizards and coercers, or trobadours and brigands.  Why should the fighter tree have so much less variety that it all it ammounts to is "flavor for roleplaying"? 

Gage-Mikel wrote:Yup, I've done close to 300 (never broke it) and I've seen Sigon do almost 220.  Wow, such a big DPS difference between our classes, its almost as big as the tanking differences /sarcasm
That's a 36% difference actually.  I'd be willing to accept monks tanking within 36% of the ability of guardians I suppose...

Gage-Mikel wrote:  Who cares?  It doesn't matter, its one instance, we do every 36 hours, where well played guardians can almost DPS equally to a monk.  Please tell me any instance, where a x4 can be tanked successfully by a monk, let alone that lets a monk tank equally well to a guardian.  I'll help you out, there isn't.
It suppose it would be nice if there were one or maybe two instances in the game were monks could tank within 10% of the ability of guardians. SMILEY

Gage-Mikel wrote:
 I'm not reading a book, and I'm not playing another game, I'm playing EQ2.  The devs said monks are tanks in this game, not me.

So what are monks right now, if not tanks?   They're not the best raid main-tanks around, but they're definately not scouts!
P.S. Am I the only one that thinks leather should be useable for furniture? 
Ebon is good for sconces, lanterns, warrior armor, cleric armor, chain armor, weapons for many classes, etc.  Right now, leather is only good for crappy bandoleers and brawler armor.   Darnit!  Where's my sofa!?!
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:26 PM   #45
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Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+  difference.

Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.

 

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Old 06-24-2005, 11:29 PM   #46
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I have to admit, even with the upcoming Big Combat Revision, I'm not sure that Monks or Bruisers will ever really be able to be raid tanks. The simple fact is that, because Monks' Damage Dissipation primarily comes from Avoidance, Monks are subject to the damage streak. In normal groups that's manageable; in raids against normal mobs it's deadly.You could design raid mobs that would be best tanked by a Monk, easy: just make the raid mob hit fast and light and have it bypass most or all of a tank's Mitigation. Done! (When you implement this, SOE, I'll send you my bill. SMILEY)The only idea I've seen or had to allow Monks to tank normal raid mobs is to reduce the timer on the Face of the Mountain/Stone Stance CA line (and the Brawlers' equivalent) and maybe increase its potency a bit. For the non-Monks out there, FotM/Stone Stance gives the Monk huge bonuses to Mitigation but stuns and stifles the Monk. That way the raid-tanking Monk could hit Stone Stance when a damage streak hit to give the healers time to heal him/her up. I don't think it would overpower the Monk as s/he is unable to continue building hate while Stone Stance is up so the Monk wouldn't want to use it too often or face losing aggro.However, unless the devs surprise me, even after the Big Combat Revamp I have significant doubts that Monks will be viable raid tanks.
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:31 PM   #47
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FamilyManFirst wrote:

Sirrion77 wrote:Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt.
10% less seems a little small, although it might be true raid-buffed, I'm not sure. However, a Monk focusing on DPS will only do about 25% to 30% more DPS than a Guardian focusing on DPS, based on my, admittedly limited, info.

On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.
Ain't numbers great? If a Monk does "close" to 300 DPS, say 290, and a Guardian can do a little over 200 DPS, say 210 (although Gage says they can hit 220), then the Monk is doing 38% more DPS than the Guardian (32% if the Guardian can hit 220). That's a little high by my estimates but nowhere near the 100% ("twice the DPS") that people like to bandy about - not you, Sirrion, but others in this thread.

As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.
I'd think that you would care since otherwise you're stuck competing for that 1 or 2 Tank slots in a group/raid. However, if you don't care, others do. One-trick classes that fill extremely limited slots don't do well; they certainly aren't balanced.

Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class.
I take umbrage with this comment, Sirrion. In EQ2 a Monk is a Fighter, ergo a Tank class. You may think that Monks shouldn't be in the Fighter Archetype, fine, but you didn't design the game, SOE did. The fact is that, in EQ2, Monks are Tanks. Deal with it.
That's right i'm designing the game, but monk are not raid MTs (single group, yes) that's a reality. Looks like it won't be for the next revamp either, again i didn't design it. I was talking about 10 DPS when MTing. I think the optimal DPS for a guardian is 100, but then again new lvl 50 guardian would do 70 while the uber 8 month old guardian will do 130. Hard to be fair on that. Monk is in the fighter archtype i think it shouldn't (that's my own opinion, i can have one right?), but when i organise a raid to me they are uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group. Sirriun
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:35 PM   #48
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uglak wrote:

Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+ difference.

Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.


SMILEY, well, my story stated a 30% difference. AFAIK Gage is still at 10%. Moreover, that's as it should be. Moorgard has said that the differences in DPS and Tanking between Guardians/Paladins and Monks/Bruisers shouldn't be "gaping chasms." Guardians are supposed to be reasonably close to Monks in the DPS department. It's just that few Guardians are interested in doing DPS, so they see their Tanking DPS and think it's horrible. P.S. The "as it should be" comment was referring to the 30%, not the 10%. Just wanted to make that clear.

Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 06-24-2005 12:58 PM

Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 06-24-2005 12:59 PM

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Old 06-24-2005, 11:40 PM   #49
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Just to show you what are parses come up with in a normal raid for us.

a offtank guardian equiped with some fabled items and a royal great flail (fabled 2 hand crush) will normally push out 140-155 DPS on a encounter involving alot of mobs.

A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range...  

MT guards can actually get  to 200 or do if they have alot of fabled proccing gear on AND the encounter has tons of mobs hitting them, such as meeting of the minds.

 

/shrugs   (Yea, aside from the your guards must suck comments, thats pretty much the average of it)

 

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Old 06-24-2005, 11:47 PM   #50
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Sirrion77 wrote:Monk is in the fighter archtype i think it shouldn't (that's my own opinion, i can have one right?), but when i organise a raid to me they are uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, Sirrion, just don't let it divorce you from reality (did I really say that about a fantasy MMORPG? SMILEY). The fact is Monks are in the Fighter Archetype and that won't change. As such, they should be able to do the job of any Fighter, i.e. Tank. They ought to be able to tank solo, in groups, and in raids, although I admit the last seems unlikely. Since they're Fighters DPS is, and should be, a secondary role.While they may be "uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group" now, according to Moorgard's DPS ranking that role will be significantly reduced in the upcoming Big Combat Revision as others surpass Monks in the DPS department. Since Monks are going down, relatively at least, in DPS it seems only fair to improve their tanking, doesn't it?
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:48 PM   #51
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uglak wrote:

Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+  difference.

Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.


I've seen, for a fact, Sigon doing 214 to my 241.

Regardless its not the *HUGE* difference in DPS abilities that guardians would lead you to believe.

Even if its 50%, there is no way we tank within 50% of a guardian, not even close.

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Old 06-24-2005, 11:53 PM   #52
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uglak wrote:

A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range... 


300 is rare for a monk, 250 is doable on some raids.  But then again 200+ is doable for some guardians too.
 
Bruisers can come closer to 300 and eclipse it in my experience.
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:53 PM   #53
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FamilyManFirst wrote:


uglak wrote:

Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+ difference.

Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.



SMILEY, well, my story stated a 30% difference. AFAIK Gage is still at 10%.

Moreover, that's as it should be. Moorgard has said that the differences in DPS and Tanking between Guardians/Paladins and Monks/Bruisers shouldn't be "gaping chasms." Guardians are supposed to be reasonably close to Monks in the DPS department. It's just that few Guardians are interested in doing DPS, so they see their Tanking DPS and think it's horrible.

Well, as I said, parses can be "stacked", variables like what classes you have in the group, what encounter your on, equipment type,   how hard the people are trying to push it, etc. would all effect the outcome of a parce.   30% difference I can swallow, although it still seems a bit off.   10% difference, ermm...   dunno bout all that, unless the variables were stacked against the monk bigtime, or it was a once in awhile fluke or something.

/shrugs


We got a couple means monks..    They destroy stuff, and, unlike other DPS'rs, they do not draw aggro and such, they do clean DPS.  Also are used for MA and such.   Theyre also my buddies, and I would have no problem with seeing them tank a encounter or two a night and let the guards hit the /assist key awhile.  But, first priority is winning, so we go with whatever makes sense to win.

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Old 06-25-2005, 12:15 AM   #54
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Not quite sure what this is about but I saw my name.  I confirm the amount of DPS I can do as related by Gage.  Mostly this has to do with Area Effect abilities I use, and of course it is assisted by haste and other buffs relating to my prowess in melee.  Guardians are by no means gimped in DPS atm, though I'm sure that will change as the combat changes become real.  I shouldn't easily and constantly outperform scouts and some mages.  Wizards, for example, are nowhere near warlocks in DPS, and I believe they are meant to be.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:35 AM   #55
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When a guardian (the MT for that matter) can out dp's a wizard, well, um hmm.......

I'll leave that one alone but something there doesn't seem quite right.

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Old 06-25-2005, 12:37 AM   #56
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Sigon is talking about when he isn't MT, but he is at the raid.  So when he is doing the same thing I am, which is dealing melee damage.
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Old 06-25-2005, 01:52 AM   #57
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oh no, please don't bring the Wizard/Warlock DPS discussion hereSMILEY Sirriun
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Old 06-25-2005, 03:47 AM   #58
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Gage-Mikel wrote:


uglak wrote:

A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range... 


300 is rare for a monk, 250 is doable on some raids.  But then again 200+ is doable for some guardians too.
 
Bruisers can come closer to 300 and eclipse it in my experience.


200+ dps by a guardian?  Hmm, best i have done at lvl 45 is 72dps, cant wait to see my 300% upgrade by 50.
 
Skeptical about your so called facts…:smileymad:
 

/cynical on

Oh wait I got 300dps on a lvl 20 gray mob, maybe I should stick to gray mobs 25 levels below me. On the blue heroics I can only achieve 60-70dps, hmm I must be doing something wrong. I don’t understand the difference, someone explain my errors, preferable from someone who doesn’t play the class.  Oh wait, if I get into a raid I can acheive 200+ dps for that <1% of the game content from other classes buffs.  Hmm, I need to figure out a way to keep them raid buffs without being in a raid, how can i do that, because I want to keep my dps over 200+ in all aspects of the game.

/cynical off

STOP saying gards have good dps, they dont.  In 99% of the game content, i.e. not raiding and without the 50 raid buffs, our dps is one of the lowest.  A fury can do more dps then a gard.  Im not trying to get a dps increase, just trying to stop the misinformation.  I choose my gard for defense, that is it, I knew the dps was low.  We dont compare to the other fighters in offense, not at all.  Gards are defined by their defense, thats it and everyone wants it nerfed. 

 

Message Edited by Nibblar on 06-24-2005 05:22 PM

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Old 06-25-2005, 04:03 AM   #59
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In case you missed it, Sigon (posts under Ibishi) who does play a lvl 50 guardian, did in fact confirm my statements about the DPS he is capable of doing, including 214ish.

Thanks.

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Old 06-25-2005, 04:05 AM   #60
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I comfirm 200 DPS as guardian, but with good DPS buffs from other classes and 2 hander fabled. Sirriun
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