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Old 06-22-2005, 10:35 PM   #61
ugl

 
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DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:

My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.

I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat.  Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?



Nag will be beaten by me. Did I anywhere say he is too hard?   And there is nothing wrong with a epic mob that cannot be beaten.   But, that sort of makes them like nagafen then doesnt it? Useless except to get a quest from. 

Point is, you claim its buff stack the guardian and go to sleep, game over...

 According to YOU, I prefer "god mode". 

My point is, to hear you talk, guardians are god mode and cannot be hit.   The game is trivial, blah blah blah...  No strat needed, healers asleep.  buff stack the guardian and take a nap..

But, I show that a buff stacked 100% agili and 80% mitigation means jack , and I took 12000 damage from a epic mob in 2 combat rnds.    And your response is that I have the wrong strat and whats wrong with mobs that cannot be beaten?  [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?

Well, which is it?  Guardians are god mode are theyre not ?  100% avoidence is overpowered, or is it not?   The game is trivial or its not?    Are you talking out both sides of yer [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], or are you not? 

Come on now Noah, either guardian buffs/buff stacking trivialize encounters, or they dont...   Which way are you going to play it, or, are you going to play it both ways?

I

Message Edited by uglak on 06-22-2005 12:12 PM

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Old 06-22-2005, 10:37 PM   #62
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Styker wrote:
Maybe it means you suck Uglak?

yeah s.t.f.u. take it like a man already, you know tank types are gonna eat it sooner or later but i guess you want it to stay as guard = all , sorry SoE doesnt agree anymore with that thought

Message Edited by Styker on 06-22-2005 11:28 AM


 
Yhadda, yhadda, yhadda...  god mode, yhadda, yhadda...   S,T.F.U, yhadda yhadda..  Guards are overpowered, yhadda yhadda, uglaks a meanie, yhadda, yhadda..
 
Look, I dont care if you like me or not.   We can go back and forth on that all day.  And no one cares, including me.
 
Either contribute some substance to the conversation (and back it up), or go back to the zerker boards and tell em how the guardians are overpowered and need nerfed..

Message Edited by uglak on 06-22-2005 11:52 AM

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Old 06-22-2005, 11:35 PM   #63
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And , BTW, that test is repeatable.   Just stack your buffs and go pull it.    You will take even more damage if you do not resist the harm touch.  

But, I didnt see anyone call me a liar on that either.   But, you "guardian nerf"  peeps can feel free to strip off that armor, stack those buffs, send your healers afk,  and then post one of those "in game" movies and show us just how uber you are and what "god mode" looks like.

 

Till then, I am going to have to call BS.

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Old 06-22-2005, 11:43 PM   #64
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Resists?
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:43 PM   #65
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It's not just raid content. I killed seraph of the stags last night with two other people, a templar and an enchanter. I probably could of done it with just the templar, it would of just taken longer.It's a GROUPX2 mob, yes it was blue to me, yes I have decent gear, but come on now... something that cons groupX2 should just paste three people. Again, it isn't just the raids that are messed up.
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:25 AM   #66
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uglak wrote:


DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:

My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.

I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat.  Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?



Nag will be beaten by me. Did I anywhere say he is too hard?   And there is nothing wrong with a epic mob that cannot be beaten.   But, that sort of makes them like nagafen then doesnt it? Useless except to get a quest from. 

Point is, you claim its buff stack the guardian and go to sleep, game over...

 According to YOU, I prefer "god mode". 

My point is, to hear you talk, guardians are god mode and cannot be hit.   The game is trivial, blah blah blah...  No strat needed, healers asleep.  buff stack the guardian and take a nap..

But, I show that a buff stacked 100% agili and 80% mitigation means jack , and I took 12000 damage from a epic mob in 2 combat rnds.    And your response is that I have the wrong strat and whats wrong with mobs that cannot be beaten?  [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?

Well, which is it?  Guardians are god mode are theyre not ?  100% avoidence is overpowered, or is it not?   The game is trivial or its not?    Are you talking out both sides of yer [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], or are you not? 

Come on now Noah, either guardian buffs/buff stacking trivialize encounters, or they dont...   Which way are you going to play it, or, are you going to play it both ways?

I

Message Edited by uglak on 06-22-200512:12 PM



Did you forget to read that my post was pre the recent "epic mob revamp"?   Im glad with the new epic mob revamp in place some people are finding them challenging now. 

As far as saying our buffs are the ONLY reason for trivialization or not.... the stacking is PART of the problem, not the whole problem.  Not once did I say our buffs were the whole issue. 

As far as "god mode" goes... lemme ask you a question at 35% mitigation and 60% avoidance, about what a scout has...  should we take damage like a scout that has the same percents?  

Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed.  Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took.  Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps!   Is this intended?  Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor?  The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.

This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank.   Doesnt sound to fun to me

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Old 06-23-2005, 01:14 AM   #67
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The whole combat system from lvl 1-50 revolving around big hits and high avoidance is the main problem, its ignorant for a game to start out that way, it would have only gotten worse every expansion if they didnt have the balls to fix it. I cant believe they didnt have the foresight to think of it though, I noticed it by the time I was level 20, if not sooner.
 
It's not like they have no experience making games, I could understand if it was their first game, but come on.. They have what, 150 levels planned? Thats a lot of expansions with dps raising more and more every expansion as it should.. how could they not see the huge dps / high avoidance system coming around to bite them in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? How did they not see the huge balance disparitys the second they tested a plate versus leather tank?
 
Then on top of that they let people get obscene amounts of defense to give obscene levels of avoidance, on top of the already screwed up core combat system, and then they leave it in for 8 months, 8 months, and as everyone knows it still hasnt changed..
 
And finally on top of that they balance around this huge avoidance bug trying to give people a challenge when it could have been hotpatched in 8 months ago, remember the agility nerf and how fast it went in? Why cant they just cap or fix avoidance that fast? It has the same exact effect, people getting hit much less than they should, yet its not as important to hot-patch?
 
Now the high-end contested mobs (that I've done) are nice for the most part, but the rest of the game is still [Removed for Content] since they wont atleast cap defense until the core system change is in place.
 
We beat nagalik lastnight, he's probably to hard for the risk vs reward but it was fun killing him once. He just has to many abilities, coupled together they make the fight very iffy. Being 1 rounded isnt fun, theres no skill involved in avoiding being 1 rounded, I'd like to rely on the skill of myself and my guildmates not the RNG and luck. Being constantly drained isnt fun due to the way his hate list abilities work etc.. There's a very fine line between challenging and stupid, and while I appreciate the upgrade to the contested mobs I still think capping defense would have been the overall better choice until the revamp.
 
Since the contested mobs are all 56-57 now avoidance doesnt mean much anyway (I had 80% during Nagalik), they could still cap defense tonight and partially fix a very large portion of the game thats been left untouched, as screwed up as day one.
 

Message Edited by Paen on 06-22-2005 02:21 PM

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Old 06-23-2005, 07:42 AM   #68
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DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:


Did you forget to read that my post was pre the recent "epic mob revamp"?   Im glad with the new epic mob revamp in place some people are finding them challenging now. 
 
So I take it this means you null/void your previous posts in this thread and others that the raid game is too easy and guardians/buff stacking make them no challenge?

As far as saying our buffs are the ONLY reason for trivialization or not.... the stacking is PART of the problem, not the whole problem.  Not once did I say our buffs were the whole issue. 

As far as "god mode" goes... lemme ask you a question at 35% mitigation and 60% avoidance, about what a scout has...  should we take damage like a scout that has the same percents? 

IMO, no.  Do we do equal damage to a scout in the same gear? No, we are tanks, they are DPS.  

Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed.  Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took.  Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps!   Is this intended?  Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor?  The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.

Ahh, so at the beggining of this thread it was trivial raids was the reason for this gross imbalance.   Now its farming blue mobs.   Which no one cares about anyways.

This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank.   Doesnt sound to fun to me

I assure you, the new raid mobs will connect.  You will not be in god mode, due to their level and special abilities.  So, your problems solved. ( at least the problems pointed out in your initial posts.   I guess you can argue low blues/freens are no longer a challenge, but, they never were.  Sorry if zaylak and drayek are still too easy for your uberness, but beggining raid guilds without the "perfect MT groups" need something to raid too.  And the loot sucks anyways.




If you believe "the combat changes" (tm) are going to perfect the game, or hell,  much less balance classes, your the one mistaken.   It will just be reshuffling the deck to different imbalances.   I have serious doubts if they will even be a improvement.   And no, I still think your guardian are overpowered posts are ridiculous and will only worsen the situation.  Your initial post was not in the guardian forums, so sayig thats the reason you specifically herald nerfing guardians and saying "guardians are overpowered" is a cop out.   Why not say buff stacking is overpowered, and include all the other MT group classes in your statement?
 
In fact, you did start this stuff with your previous "naked Noah" posts.  And your minds still set on the game being catered to Noahs vision.
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:50 AM   #69
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While they have made significant changes to epic content to balance it against our ability to take things down, much of the game is still extremely trivialized by a high end tank, especially a guardian.  There are issues now and there will likely be issues after the larger changes are made, but changes DO need to be made.  There is more to the game than epic content, and I would like interesting group and x2 group content as well.  Thats not very likely in the current situation.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:37 PM   #70
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Ibishi wrote:
While they have made significant changes to epic content to balance it against our ability to take things down, much of the game is still extremely trivialized by a high end tank, especially a guardian.  There are issues now and there will likely be issues after the larger changes are made, but changes DO need to be made.  There is more to the game than epic content, and I would like interesting group and x2 group content as well.  Thats not very likely in the current situation.



Well, there ya have it.  guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game.  If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel..   I guess we can close this thread up now.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:52 PM   #71
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I think it's all about the grp setting, if you have everyday warden, bard, etc to stack the defense, it's easy.
We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. 
 
As for the hp buff, i think i'll survive ;p
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:24 PM   #72
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Zilasak said

We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. 

 
 
but who cares if your guild dont have a Warden ? See these people use (exploit) the current system to the fullest, farm the heck out of everything and then call a nerf. If a nerf comes it will be a soft blow for them but it will land very very heavy on you indeed.
 
 
Things were civil upto now but looks like more of you guys would slither into these forums in support of each other so gloves off. I have never seen a bigger bunch of traitors and hypocrites in my life !

 

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-23-2005 06:26 AM

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Old 06-23-2005, 06:05 PM   #73
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Nazowa wrote:

Zilasak said

We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. 

 
 
but who cares if your guild dont have a Warden ? See these people use (exploit) the current system to the fullest, farm the heck out of everything and then call a nerf. If a nerf comes it will be a soft blow for them but it will land very very heavy on you indeed.
 
 
Things were civil upto now but looks like more of you guys would slither into these forums in support of each other so gloves off. I have never seen a bigger bunch of traitors and hypocrites in my life !

 

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-23-2005 06:26 AM



No pb, we will adapt, i just wanted to show that the problem is mostly due to the buff stacking between classes, and not guardian buff only.
I even think that if soe do it the right way, it won't affect guilds like mine.
It will not be possible anymore to stack 3+ defensive (buff) class, let say warden and bard as an exemple or even faster, a max cap to the def skill.
 
English is not my native langage, always hard to explain an idea ;p ;p

Message Edited by Zilasak on 06-23-2005 07:10 AM

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Old 06-23-2005, 06:18 PM   #74
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Zilasak wrote:
I think it's all about the grp setting, if you have everyday warden, bard, etc to stack the defense, it's easy.
We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. 
 
As for the hp buff, i think i'll survive ;p



Exactley.  Its a buff stacking problem, for those with the "perfect setup".  And even its not really a problem with alot of the new improved raid epics. 

 Exploit the system to the fullest (not to mention the vox/trembler crap), farm the crap out of gear, then scream for nerfs.    I still havent got a answer as to how a guardian HITPOINT buff nerf addresses any of it anyways.  Nor why guardians are singled out for defense nerfs when there are alot more classes then guardians that throw defense buffs.  

/shrugs    Reason we have no answer is because there is no answer.  Singling guardians out for nerfs is lame, and solves nothing.   But, really no sense and continuing with the discussion, since its seems to be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for tat, and duck and weave, if spin #1 fails, go to spin #2, etc..  

Raids are trivial and guardians are god classes!  >  No theyre not, we get drilled by raid mobs with total buff stacking  >  Well, green mobs cant kick our [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  > blah blah blah...

Really no reason to continue the exchange.   Its all pretty much covered in here, and Uglak will now rest his case.

Sorry for those I was confrontational with, but ,  peeps calling for guardians buff nerfs, while ignoring every other classes buff stacking jerks my chain.   Sony will do what Sony will do, which is probably cave in to whoever screams the loudest on the boards, wins the popularity contest, etc, which is a recipe for continual error.    It is not going to change.  

Most bruisers do not want to be tanks with low DPS, most zerkers are happy with their proffession/raid desirability (being welcome [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] offtanks, maintanks, DPS, etc).  Most guardians are happy where they stand.   But, looks like we are about to get 30% of the server populations (all fighter classes) competing for the 1 or 2 tank spots in a raid, 1 spot in a group, and the rest sitting the bench while the dps and healers fill it out.  

But, its a dead horse argument, and nothing we says going to change the course now.  Gage and I, as well as others who apparantley arent even around anymore, got 6 or 7 mile long threads discussing the topic.   Not really much sense in rehashing it over and over.   I think all angles have been covered add nauseum.   We disagree, and nothings going to change it.

 /shrug, guess we just let the chips fall where they may and hope for the best.    

The best solution would be having different types of content for different types of fighters.   Yes, even old MT guards wouldnt mind hitting the /assist key in "sham mode" for a raid or two a night and let the monks/bruiser have their fun.   But, new content/changing content is apparantley too much work for SOE, so, ya get what we have here...    

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Old 06-23-2005, 06:22 PM   #75
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uglak wrote:

no sense and continuing with the discussion, since its seems to be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for tat,

I kinda thought this was funny for some reason, hah...
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Old 06-23-2005, 08:42 PM   #76
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uglak wrote:

Well, there ya have it.  guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game.  If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel..   I guess we can close this thread up now.



That bull is exactly why I didn't step in earlier to agree with Noah.  Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation.  Noah and I don't see eye to eye on everything Uglak.  And Noah knows this is not solely an issue of guardians being overpowered either.  But Guardians are responsible for a lot of it, that can not be denied.  I have consistently said I will reserve my judgment for the changes until I see and feel them.  Combat in EQ2 feels like a marshmellow far too often, as if neither the mob's actions nor mine have much influence over the other.  This has become far less true of epic content, but heroic and solo content is too broad to be adjusted so finely.  I hope combat changes in a much broader sense.  If you read threads I start, I have rather ambitious desires for how interactive and expansive combat and raid events should be.

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Old 06-23-2005, 11:42 PM   #77
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My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.

I think most people's opinions would likely change after being in FoH (or a similar guild) for a couple months.  I'm sure mine would.  However, 99.99% of the people in the game are not and never will be (nor do they want to be).  The game should not be balanced with the assumption that everyone is in a hard core raiding guild.

Thats not to say that things shouldn't be changed of course....

Let me just say this: Buff stacking is NOT the biggest problem with the current system.

The biggest problems is that the formulas are built around thresholds.  There is a fine line between when an encounter is nearly impossible and when it becomes trivial.  Buff stacking just makes this problem much worse because if you can find the right things to stack, you can hit the thresholds easier.  And during raids, this is also greatly exxagerrated because of the magnitude of the epic's DPS.  There is just not enough in-betwen space where things are in the "challenging" realm.  A difference of 10 points of one skill on one person in a 24 person raid could literally mean the difference between a near certain loss or an easy win.  This is the ridiculous part of the current combat system - and why it is so frustrating for people to come to an agreement on how it should be fixed.  The biggest part of the challenge of the raid is to come up with the correct buff combonations which then simply trivializes the content.  Guilds that do not have access to these different classes struggle with basic raids while other guilds breeze through everything.

The scary thing about the Guardian class is honestly that it is COMPLETELY dependent on buffs.  Every non-buff CA we have is pretty blah and our class defining skills are flat out broken with no hope in sight to fix them.  If you ran a balance test on all the classes in the game without using any buffs, you'd find the Guardian at the bottom of the heap with Enchanters and Bards.  This is why Guardians are scared about the upcoming buff nerfage.  When you take an honest look at the class and imagine all the buffs gone/nerfed - there really is not much else there.  The way things currently stand, it would be very easy for the devs to send us into a prolonged gimpdom simply as a by product of fixing the combat system.
 

 

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Old 06-24-2005, 12:17 AM   #78
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DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:

Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed.  Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took.  Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps!   Is this intended?  Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor?  The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.

This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank.   Doesnt sound to fun to me


This "test" is a little disingenious.   Your avoidance/mitigation might have been the same as a scout's, but not your defense skill.  Try the same test with a level 49 or 50 mob (depending on how high your defense is) and you won't live 5 minutes, let alone 20.   Currently there is a huge boost in avoidance versus a given mob if your defense is high enough to "grey" them out.  You can confirm this by stacking buffs from different classes and your own abilities in different combinations.  You will find that, literally, one point of defense will boost you from the 70-range to high 90's or 100% avoidance.  That is the point at which you've "greyed out" white con mobs.  This same process happens with lower level mobs, but it happens well before you see the huge boost in your profile because it only displays avoidance vs. white con mobs.  (This is why heroic mobs one level can't touch you, but heroic mobs of the same type that are one level higher can beat the tar out of you.)  Note that when you do get to 100% avoidance and "grey out" white con mobs,  you haven't suddenly gained 20-30% extra avoidance vs. yellows or reds.  That huge boost would only apply versus, for example, level 56 mobs if you were able to add an additional 30 defense *after* hitting 100% avoidance in your profile.   It is also important to note that the 100% trick does not level the playing field against mobs that haven't been "greyed" out.  If two characters normally have different ammounts of avoidance, but have the same defense and then both just barely hit 100% vs white mobs via buffs, their avoidance versus higher level mobs will *not* be equal.   Getting to 100% in your profile is a nice impressive stat, but it doesn't tell the whole story.  Not enough people realize that. Bottom line, any epic encounter that is high enough level cannot easily be trivialized in this fasion, if at all.  Lower level epic encounters, such as the Seraph, can be *easily* trivialized using this tactic.   Heroic content aimed at single groups can also be trivialized using this tactic since very little of it is above level 50.  This is why a guardian or any class that has the right traits/buffs can tank massive trains of greens, blues, whites, and sometimes even yellows.  Guardians happen to be particularily good at it for one reason alone: our group defense buff.  Now here's the problem.  Due to the way avoidance/mitigation works for tanks, mobs hit very hard when they do hit.  Classes that don't have high defense, avoidance, mitigation, and HP tend to get splattered by heroic content in a very short period of time.  As things are, some classes can die in the space of a only a couple combat rounds against blue con heroic mobs, and sometimes just one round if the mob lands a high damage CA.  (Don't cry too hard for them.  These same classes can often still solo those mobs with ease.  They just have to use tactics that keep them out of meelee.)  So there is a limit to how much you can buff meelee on heroic mobs, since if you buff it too far a significant number of classes will be insta-gibbed the moment a mob manages to get into meelee range.  (That's no fun for anyone!)  If they cap defense or implement diminishing returns on defense stacking then this content can be made less easily trivializable, but there will be a very large about of content rebalancing that needs to be done.  What I would do, personally, is remove the huge boost in avoidance you get for "greying out" mobs and make avoidance go up linearilly.  Greens and blues would still be able to hit a character with very high defense skill, but non-tank classes would not be significantly impacted, nor would tanks under most raid conditions.   Most people would no longer be able to go AFK with a group of higher level grey mobs beating on them, but that's just fine, since grey's won't attack you unless you attack them first.  Defense would still be a stat you'd want to pump as high as possible and everyone with a defense buff would be able to contribute,  but there would not longer be a magic number to reach that would make you invulnerable to regular meelee from mobs of a given level. I am not a dev however, so their solution will most likely be different.  Hopefully they won't screw things up too badly.  Edit: What Arsenal posted while I was writing this post is bang on.  This is very much a threshold problem.  If they remove the threshold and implement more linear benefits things would work out a lot more reasonably, IMHO. 

Message Edited by Corvan on 06-23-2005 01:26 PM

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Old 06-24-2005, 02:18 AM   #79
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As others have said would greatly enjoy our hp buffs not stacking but have them scale on a higher end just because it is a pain to keep them all up. I think return to battle should be 800-900ish at adept 3. I think braksans should be around same to give choice of which to use. I personally would still use braksans for the mitigation even if it was say 100 less hp after scaling. 
 
Everyone is dancing around the same issue. Stack up defense and mob can become /yawn. I dont see where anyone has said guardians are the sole problem. However I am not in a big raid guild but feel guardians are way more powerful than other tank classes. Used to watch a paladin go toe to toe on same mob i would when id go untouched and be able to chain kill. He had to kite kill if he wanted to be able to kill it and would need 80% power to do it. In rivervale with blightrats where blue to green id go pull 15-20 of em and go untocuhed almost killing them. Did not need a healer just my defense buffs. I think that scaling is a bit much and i think it is other classes to. I have seen a troubador do similar things as i have with going unavoided.  When it coems to group mobs i dont see this as big deal when getting in to group x2+ i think it is a big deal.
 
A way to fix this is one scale up buffs higher instead of havign to stack a bunch of up. This goes for all classes. Troub not being able to stack 4 stat songs but make there best one add 75ish in stats. Dont make group x2+ mobs skills based off there lvl. Keep there actual defense based on there lvl. Make there offensive skills be as high scaled as soe sees fit for that challenge. Such as a pure melee should have higher offensive skill than a caster mob. Like Zalak could still be lvl 54 mob easier for lvl 45ish peeps to dps on. When his offensive skills are equivalent to a lvl 58. You put inquisitor debuffs on drops it down to him basically being lvl 55. They could scale mobs that way though. Where offensive skills can fluxuate not based off mobs lvl. Some items have like +5 to class skills like protection etc. Well mobs should be able to scale up off of what there top raid trait is meant to be.
 
This is where is I find a problem. As a guardian i duo'd coldtooth with a troubador with us both at lvl 44. That is not good for the game. Going untouched from defense and spell avoidance skills. I think another way things should drop down is scale everyones hp down but scale down hits and spell dmg from npcs. Make them alot more often to hit though. Such as being 1 shotted by a big nuke unless you resist is dumb. Scale it down to where it hits more often but isnt a 1 shot killer or make it the defining facotr on that mob and fix the aggro crap so if a mt goes down a skill like rescue could be a instant pull to the top like ae taunt was in eq1. Make top buffed hp around 8-10k in fabled where mobs hit 75% of time no matter what buffs you have scale down how much they stun or how long stuns last and scale down the dmg they hit for. Just my 2 cents
 
Also I think this would make mez a benefit on mobs that summon adds. Because you wouldnt want all those hits scaling around. Enchanters would be happier too.
 

Message Edited by blueduckie on 06-23-2005 03:23 PM

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Old 06-24-2005, 02:42 PM   #80
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Arsenal wrote:

My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.

I think most people's opinions would likely change after being in FoH (or a similar guild) for a couple months.  I'm sure mine would.  However, 99.99% of the people in the game are not and never will be (nor do they want to be).  The game should not be balanced with the assumption that everyone is in a hard core raiding guild.

Thats not to say that things shouldn't be changed of course....

Let me just say this: Buff stacking is NOT the biggest problem with the current system.

The biggest problems is that the formulas are built around thresholds.  There is a fine line between when an encounter is nearly impossible and when it becomes trivial.  Buff stacking just makes this problem much worse because if you can find the right things to stack, you can hit the thresholds easier.  And during raids, this is also greatly exxagerrated because of the magnitude of the epic's DPS.  There is just not enough in-betwen space where things are in the "challenging" realm.  A difference of 10 points of one skill on one person in a 24 person raid could literally mean the difference between a near certain loss or an easy win.  This is the ridiculous part of the current combat system - and why it is so frustrating for people to come to an agreement on how it should be fixed.  The biggest part of the challenge of the raid is to come up with the correct buff combonations which then simply trivializes the content.  Guilds that do not have access to these different classes struggle with basic raids while other guilds breeze through everything.

The scary thing about the Guardian class is honestly that it is COMPLETELY dependent on buffs.  Every non-buff CA we have is pretty blah and our class defining skills are flat out broken with no hope in sight to fix them.  If you ran a balance test on all the classes in the game without using any buffs, you'd find the Guardian at the bottom of the heap with Enchanters and Bards.  This is why Guardians are scared about the upcoming buff nerfage.  When you take an honest look at the class and imagine all the buffs gone/nerfed - there really is not much else there.  The way things currently stand, it would be very easy for the devs to send us into a prolonged gimpdom simply as a by product of fixing the combat system.
 

 




Do not worry about the uber guild thing.  Judging from you post, you have a much better understanding of the game then many of them do.  Nice post.
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Old 06-24-2005, 04:20 PM   #81
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Ibishi wrote:


uglak wrote:

Well, there ya have it.  guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game.  If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel..   I guess we can close this thread up now.



That bull is exactly why I didn't step in earlier to agree with Noah.  Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation.  Noah and I don't see eye to eye on everything Uglak.  And Noah knows this is not solely an issue of guardians being overpowered either.  But Guardians are responsible for a lot of it, that can not be denied.  I have consistently said I will reserve my judgment for the changes until I see and feel them.  Combat in EQ2 feels like a marshmellow far too often, as if neither the mob's actions nor mine have much influence over the other.  This has become far less true of epic content, but heroic and solo content is too broad to be adjusted so finely.  I hope combat changes in a much broader sense.  If you read threads I start, I have rather ambitious desires for how interactive and expansive combat and raid events should be.

Message Edited by Ibishi on 06-23-2005 12:43 PM


Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits.  No amount of "I agree posts" will change that,  expecially ones from his guildies.  

We have pretty much nailed it down here.

1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.

2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs.   No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.

3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs


4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.

 

Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions.   For instance, the monk/guardian thing.  Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where.   Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS.  Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS.  And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).

No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts.  

I do not care if your Noah, Moorguard or Pope Benedict.   You post a guardian nerf / Class balance thread on this forum, you will be checked.     Your argument will be measured.  

So, if thats your intent, its best to make "opinion posts" like gage, as those posts can rarely be resolved through reasoning.  

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Old 06-24-2005, 04:47 PM   #82
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Depends on how bad they "nerf" tanks, all that will change is that a raid force will need 10-12 healers instead of 6-8 right now. Organised people will make it trivial again whatever sony does on classes. That's where how the encounter works and it's "tricks" that can make the difference. I say leave it as it is, analyse what classes have right now then modify encounter to match it. More timer failure (For dps) and more double/triple encounters with 2-3 MT =) or "Twists". Sirriun
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:00 PM   #83
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uglak wrote:

 

Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits.  No amount of "I agree posts" will change that,  expecially ones from his guildies.  

I agree, and I don't think hes doing poorly.  If I felt he was I'd speak to him in-game and stay out of it.  Consider anything he has said near to what I would say.  My agreement or disagreement with someone's posts is worth plenty.

We have pretty much nailed it down here.

1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.

That is an opinion I don't share.

2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs.   No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.

I have said similar things about the difference between epic mobs and normal mobs, this was not always so.  Noah, myself, and others remember the time when epics were the exact same story, especially when shrug off was > hero's armor.  I disagree that it is acceptable that we still have god mode on any green or blue mob.  If you don't stack buffs, level 57 epics will hit far less often than intended.  Recently increased attack speed and level have been altered to mitigate the defense stacking available to us.  We'll see how balanced the epics are in contrast to guardians after the combat changes, at the moment its pretty decent and entertainingly difficult.  I am being entertained by these events, who would have guessed?

3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs

That is an opinion I don't share.

4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.

Defense is more involved with god mode than the hitpoint buffs, but I don't believe we should be able to stack grey spells that are clearly meant to be replaced by latter spells.  I have even made statements that we should be capable of only using one of the attacks in the taunting blow line of attacks as well.  I've been pushing for this very change to hitpoint buffs for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long time, and will continue to push for the same re-cast being shared among the taunting blow line of spells; Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Vengeful Strike, Slate's Invigorating Threat.

Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions.   For instance, the monk/guardian thing.  Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where.   Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS.  Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS.  And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).

No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts.  

Yet here you are trying anyway.  If you're going to make such lovely statements, I would think it better not to epitomize the ideal you attack.  You've stated a round of opinions in this post I disagree with.

I do not care if your Noah, Moorguard or Pope Benedict.   You post a guardian nerf / Class balance thread on this forum, you will be checked.     Your argument will be measured.  

So, if thats your intent, its best to make "opinion posts" like gage, as those posts can rarely be resolved through reasoning.  




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Old 06-24-2005, 11:12 PM   #84
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Ibishi wrote:


uglak wrote:

 

Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits.  No amount of "I agree posts" will change that,  expecially ones from his guildies.  

I agree, and I don't think hes doing poorly.  If I felt he was I'd speak to him in-game and stay out of it.  Consider anything he has said near to what I would say.  My agreement or disagreement with someone's posts is worth plenty.

I am sorry, I assumed when you post this, you thought he needed your help with his argument.

"Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation."

We have pretty much nailed it down here.

1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.

That is an opinion I don't share.

Care to elaborate?   What substantial effect do you feel these guardian grey hitpoint buffs have?   Will it make killing blues more exciting?   Make raid mobs less trivial?

2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs.   No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.

I have said similar things about the difference between epic mobs and normal mobs, this was not always so.  Noah, myself, and others remember the time when epics were the exact same story, especially when shrug off was > hero's armor.  I disagree that it is acceptable that we still have god mode on any green or blue mob.  If you don't stack buffs, level 57 epics will hit far less often than intended.  Recently increased attack speed and level have been altered to mitigate the defense stacking available to us.  We'll see how balanced the epics are in contrast to guardians after the combat changes, at the moment its pretty decent and entertainingly difficult.  I am being entertained by these events, who would have guessed?

Ok, so you do agree here.   Raid mobs can and do hit guardians, and they have no god mode, except with blues/greens.

3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs

That is an opinion I don't share.

Again, we need more details.   What effect do these guardian hitpoint buffs have regarding gameplay?

4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.

Defense is more involved with god mode than the hitpoint buffs, but I don't believe we should be able to stack grey spells that are clearly meant to be replaced by latter spells.  I have even made statements that we should be capable of only using one of the attacks in the taunting blow line of attacks as well.  I've been pushing for this very change to hitpoint buffs for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long time, and will continue to push for the same re-cast being shared among the taunting blow line of spells; Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Vengeful Strike, Slate's Invigorating Threat.

So, you do agree, defense is the culprit, yet, you still think the grey hitpoint nerf is a good thing, and would like to further see our taunts nerfed as well....

Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions.   For instance, the monk/guardian thing.  Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where.   Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS.  Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS.  And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).

No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts.  

Yet here you are trying anyway.  If you're going to make such lovely statements, I would think it better not to epitomize the ideal you attack.  You've stated a round of opinions in this post I disagree with.

I do not think you understand.

Argument #1

I feel Monks rock, should be able to tank like guardians and do awesome DPS.

Here, we cannot argue what you think monks "should be".  Its based on your opinion.  Nothing to talk about.

Argument #2

I feel defense is overpowered , and  epic mobs cannot hit a guardian with full buffs stacked.

This argument, we can discuss/prove/disprove...   We can all go home, toss on the buffs and pull the mob...

 



The first type of discussion is where gage thrives.  And there can be no winner.  Either you agree with him, or you do not.   Flame the opinions, try to convince them your opinion is "better".

The secound type is what Noahs good at.  He can usually break out the math/chart and show what he is talking about.  thats why he has two good posts stickied up above.  Also, things such as the "naked Noah" posts...   You can easly parse, log in and pull, etc and see if it is true or false.

Hope that clears things up  what I meant on the opinion thing.  

 
If you would like to elaborate on how the hitpoint buff nerf helped the game, I would like to hear it.  I said that it has no substantial effect on gameplay, and you disagreed.  So, what substantial effect does it have?
   Will it make killing green mobs less trivial?  Raid mobs more challenging?
 
I fail to see how a few hundred hitpoints from guardian buffs change anything, except for the fact that we no longer will have to cast multiple buffs.       
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:11 AM   #85
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Everquest and Everquest II are based upon limited player capability which forces interdependency and allows them to control the level of difficulty in an event to a fine degree.  Going forward into expansions we will only get more and more in these spell lines and content will have to be balanced around the assumption of their use just as content became balanced around the use of spells like 75% slow and complete heal in EQ1.
 
With that in mind, I would rather such a use not exist to begin with.  Perhaps our current level buffs will become more potent, perhaps they all will, but they should be views as THE spell in that line that you will use.  Likewise it allows critically powerful spells to be introduced to the line rather than incremental ones, because it will be the only one we can cast.  Perhaps the Master I-IV ranks of spells will be made to unlock new abilities within the spell to simulate the "Ancient" spell types of EQ1.  Furthermore if we are designed to be able to cast all of them at once, the other fighter classes will be given similar capability.  It will not be an advantage to us.  It will be something that is considered a feature of our class and be involved in the balance between fighters.
 
Aesthetically, I don't consider it fun to maintain several spells to produce minute, unfortunately necessary, effect on the mob.  I want more potent and critically useful attacks, and if I ever need to spam it will be to counter a very desperate issue that arises.  Aggro should matter to tanks, but we should focus on dynamic tanking capability.  As we improve aggro should become an assumption to us as we gain the time to participate in heroic opprtunities and maintain other effects on the mob to improve our tanking as needed by individual situations.  This is the direction I would prefer us to take.  It is not served by incremental and weak abilities being used 40 and 50 levels after learning them.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:34 AM   #86
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Sirrion77 wrote:
Depends on how bad they "nerf" tanks, all that will change is that a raid force will need 10-12 healers instead of 6-8 right now.

Organised people will make it trivial again whatever sony does on classes. That's where how the encounter works and it's "tricks" that can make the difference.

I say leave it as it is, analyse what classes have right now then modify encounter to match it. More timer failure (For dps) and more double/triple encounters with 2-3 MT =) or "Twists".

Sirriun



You can actually manage in most raids with less than 6, we did darathar the other night with 4 healers, and to take down a red mob with 4 healers well its um weaksauce.

I didn't agree with the buff changes until I actually saw our guild pull this off, I'm sure it had hardly nothing to do with the fact that I can stack 4 guardian HP buffs but still to be able to knock off a mob like this with 4 healers should say something with how powerful guardians are atm, every other class almost has been nerfed in some major way (zerkers with rampage, wizard's AE's, etc) its our turn now and just deal with it and move on with your lives.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:35 AM   #87
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Ibishi wrote:
Everquest and Everquest II are based upon limited player capability which forces interdependency and allows them to control the level of difficulty in an event to a fine degree.  Going forward into expansions we will only get more and more in these spell lines and content will have to be balanced around the assumption of their use just as content became balanced around the use of spells like 75% slow and complete heal in EQ1.
 
With that in mind, I would rather such a use not exist to begin with.  Perhaps our current level buffs will become more potent, perhaps they all will, but they should be views as THE spell in that line that you will use.  Likewise it allows critically powerful spells to be introduced to the line rather than incremental ones, because it will be the only one we can cast.  Perhaps the Master I-IV ranks of spells will be made to unlock new abilities within the spell to simulate the "Ancient" spell types of EQ1.  Furthermore if we are designed to be able to cast all of them at once, the other fighter classes will be given similar capability.  It will not be an advantage to us.  It will be something that is considered a feature of our class and be involved in the balance between fighters.
 
Aesthetically, I don't consider it fun to maintain several spells to produce minute, unfortunately necessary, effect on the mob.  I want more potent and critically useful attacks, and if I ever need to spam it will be to counter a very desperate issue that arises.  Aggro should matter to tanks, but we should focus on dynamic tanking capability.  As we improve aggro should become an assumption to us as we gain the time to participate in heroic opprtunities and maintain other effects on the mob to improve our tanking as needed by individual situations.  This is the direction I would prefer us to take.  It is not served by incremental and weak abilities being used 40 and 50 levels after learning them.



I could agree with that.  but, there are alot of IFs on there, IFs we have no control over. It depends on the developers..  If Noahs post had said, our buffs no longer stack, BUT our top buff gained a %bonus then  this thread wouldnt have ever flew the way it did.    But, instead, it was a WOOT overpowered guardians got nerfed...   Or at least, thats the way in came off to me.

To be honest, I have lost faith in this dev team.   I just have.  I wouldnt put it past them to [Removed for Content] guardians down to nothing and take 5+ months to straighten it out.

I would not put it passed them to change fighters/nerf DPS so that our guild has 10 fighters sitting outside the zone trading places for the tank spots at each raid, while the healers and scouts/mages fill out the raid.   And yes, I am talking zerkers, bruisers, monks, guards, everything.   If theyre all made into "tanks", and cant dps their way out of a wet paperbag, we will have to fill those slots with usefull classes (healers/DPS/enchanters.  In fact, this is my worse fear when they talk about archtype balance and the combat changes.   Raids as they are not just do not have a use for that many tanks,  and I dont want all my fighter buddies having to pick [Removed for Content], rendered useless...   I do not trust the devs to get it right, based on their own statements and preformance up to this point.

And when they get it wrong, I do not trust them to fix it in a a timely manner.  

 

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Old 06-25-2005, 12:45 AM   #88
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You have no option other than to trust the developers.  Hostility will only get you so far.  There are other games out now and in development that have different balance structures.  Specifically those games with PvP content tend to allow fighters a healthy amount of damage.  I understand your fears and I agree that this could lead to an undesireable situation, as it has in the original EverQuest.  Fighters should have some ability to stack and perform when not the "primary" tank in situations where there are only one or two "primary" tanks.  My feeling is that we should have more capability to stack towards tanking, rather than DPS.  I have made posts and various comments toward that.  Currently the least stacking function in combat is tanking, and that should change so that events are more inclusive to the fighter class.  So that the fighter class performs a similar role in raid events as it does in single groups.  Raid roles for every class should be an evolution of their role in a group.  For tanks this is often not so.

Message Edited by Ibishi on 06-24-2005 04:48 PM

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Old 06-25-2005, 01:58 AM   #89
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Ermm,   I have to trust em eh?
 
Let me type up something real quick, make a new post, and you can tell me if it is out of the realm of possibility...
 
k?
 
 
Is what you dont seem to get is, eq1 had NO LIMIT on raiders...   bring all those warriors, zerg it!
 
This one has a 24 limit.   That can make it much, much worse...

Message Edited by uglak on 06-24-2005 03:05 PM

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