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Old 05-04-2005, 07:28 PM   #1
Styk

 
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Since brawler types no longer wear shields in eq2 what do yall think about Shields being moved over from counting towards avoidance to counting towards mitigation? I mean as it currently stands shields affect avoidance and buffed we can avoid just as good as brawlers? What do yall think? ( Pls no flame i want to get our Guardian Brothers take on this idea )
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Old 05-04-2005, 07:35 PM   #2
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From a "realistical" point of view, shields are used to block. That is avoiding damage, not mitigating it. Comparing it to EQ1 (when I left it), where shields are just another AC piece to equip, I like the block feature of EQ2 shields much more. /drops 2cp
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:12 AM   #3
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Depends on how you define "block". In my mind blocking with a shield does not mean completely avoiding the dmg.  If im using a large shield to try to block someone hitting me with a club...i think at the very least I am going to take some dmg just from the impact of the blow against the shield.  It will be small compared to being hit directly with the club but after fighting for a few min I should be bruised from using a shield. Probably just my odd way of looking at it =P
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Old 05-05-2005, 04:01 AM   #4
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You're right Rafael, you can sustain heavy injury even when wielding a shield in real life.  If you take a sledgehammer against someone using a wood and metal shield, they'll feel it.  In fact you could easily break the bones in their arm.  There is of course more to using a shield in real life than simply holding it up against anything coming at you, but not a lot more. I don't understand why there is not mitigating factor to shields, but I don't disagree with it either.  I wouldn't know what those values would be and I doubt the developers at SOE are too familiar either.
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Old 05-05-2005, 04:40 AM   #5
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My understanding of Avoidance is; To be missed by 'avoiding' an attack. With that said a Shield in 'reality' is mitigating the damage you take, so yes you would have a little  bruising of the arm perhaps, but you mitigated being say.. Slashed by a sword or bludgened with a blunt weapon., your logic makes sense. But they hardly code these factors based off of reality, it was a balancing decision I am guessing.
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:52 PM   #6
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I also always thought that I should have do "do something" besides just equiping it to be able to properly use a shield.   I guess these things would just be too hard to implement in a game.
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Old 05-05-2005, 08:02 PM   #7
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I can see this.  After all, blocking a blow with your shield is really not much different from blocking the same blow with your breastplate or helmet.  All armor does is put something between the incoming blow and your body. 
If you take a shield and a breastplate and remove the straps from each, you have basically the same thing.  Changing the shield from avoidance to mitigation makes sense from that standpoint.  The next question is "do warriors/crusaders need to reduce avoidance in favor of mitigation"? 
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:01 AM   #8
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See thats my understanding all allong, how is a Tower Shield suppose to help you "avoid more" when its ment to take the brute force of an incomming blow? Plus its has a "Mitigation Factor" on it now yet it goes to avoidance? Kinda confusing and IMO i think shields should be moved to mitigation instead of avoidance..... would help rebalance avoidance with plate vs brawlers a little at least
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:30 AM   #9
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the difference is that you can change the angle and velocity of your shield to deflect blows.  And many blows are in-fact light piercing and slashing attacks which will do negligible(sp?) damage to a handheld shield and debilitating damage to your body.
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Old 05-06-2005, 12:32 PM   #10
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I posted the same thing awhile ago and tbh I still think that shields should go to mitigation not avoidance.
 
I do not say this for realism's sake, this game isn't realistic, for the sake of balance between the subclasses within the archetype surely it would make more sense.
 
 
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Old 05-09-2005, 09:16 PM   #11
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Shields are used to deflect blows, not block them.  As a previous poster mentioned crushing weapons would still do signifigant dmg to your arm (and knock you down) if you were blocking, not deflecting.  Even large slashing and piercing weapons would hit with enough force to break bones and knock people over.
 
Watch a good movie that uses shields, like gladiator.  You'll see most of the time they try to deflect the hit with a shield and when they don't, they feel it (get knocked down or stunned for a sec or two).  This is how they used them in history.  The only people who used towers were large formations of foot soldiers (like roman legions).  The techniques in this situation were very different then a man on horseback (ie knights with kites).  Towers were mainly used for knocking people down and blocking arrows.  With a tower men charge in, get in close, and use the short sword for a quick death stab.  The tower is used to knock/down and/or get inside the sword arm and keep the man from swinging.  They relied on the fact that there was limited room to swing around large weapons which would knock the tower shield user down or break his shield, arm or both.
 
It's a common misconception that shields were used to block instead of deflect.  They only thing they really block is projectiles.  Ask your local Ren Fest jouster.  He'll tell you the exact same thing.  There is no blocking that lance, only deflection.  Even the armor is designed to deflect, not block (once the blow is not deflected is when you see the guy in the dirt)
 
So, shields should increase avoidance, not mitigation (Just like in EQ2).  For mitigation they are fairly poor.
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Old 05-10-2005, 11:24 AM   #12
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Shoal using that logic then shouldn't us tanks have deflection instead of brawlers? You correct on what tower shields do in RL but in eq2 SoE didnt give plate tanks deflection they gave it to brawlers ( shows you how much research SoE did in that department lol ) , since atm there is an avoidance imbalance and shields give avoidance instead of mitigation its simple .... brawlers cant use shields therefore move shields over to mitigation so the will always have an avodiance lead over plate tanks and vice versa
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Old 05-10-2005, 12:35 PM   #13
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No-one argues on what shields do in real life because everyone knows. The point is that changing shields from avoidance to mitigation would go towards solving the monk/guardian - avoidance/mitigation imbalance.
 
Games arent about realism, its time people stopped knocking back ideas because theyre not "realistic". I dont want a realistic game - if I did id go play flightsim or something equally tedious.
 
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Old 05-10-2005, 06:41 PM   #14
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Sorry, my mis-understanding.  I thought people were saying shields should be mitigation because it would be more realistic, which it would not.  However, if we make shields mitigation I don't think that would help the current code.  If you remeber, devs gave brawlers the ability of having a round shield 100% of the time (think in code terms, invisible shield).  So, if they change shields to mitigation I bet that would affect the brawlers too (unless they also rewrite that code which would probably take them alot of time/effort which means the wont or it will take them forever).
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Old 05-11-2005, 09:12 PM   #15
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I can see small shields being used to "deflect" hits but a large Tower Shield? 
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Old 05-11-2005, 10:38 PM   #16
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Well...you could shift the angle you hold the tower shield at so that incoming blows would glance off to the side, but I can't see someone using a tower shield like you would a buckler...to intercept and bat aside an incoming blow.  When tower shields were first developed by the ancient Greeks they were used in large infantry formations and in conjunction with long spears.  The Macedonians also used them in this way.  For them the large shield didn't move around much.  They held it in front of them and locked it with their neighbors shield to provide a mobile shield wall.  The purpose of the shield for them was to stop arrows and their enemies spears from getting thru to them.  Also it was used, along with the others in the shield line, to form one large mass to push the enemy phalanx until their shield wall broke up and you could over run them.  The Romans adapted these techniques for use with their swords.  They would close with the enemy and use their shields for defense, but also to try to knock aside their enemies shield and create an opening where they could use their swords.  Nothing I've ever read has described a large shield being used in a manner other than this.  I've got friends in the SCA and from the techniques they've pulled from translations of some of the medieval combat manuals it seems that even in the middle ages you kept the shield braced up in front of you and didn't move it around much at all.  To me this sounds more like mitigation and some deflection rather than avoidance.  You brace your shield for the blow and maybe deflect some of its force but you aren't avoiding it.  Anyone who moved their shield around too much just created openings for an enemies weapon to get thru.

 

 

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